Wales v South Africa: Warren Gatland rejects Rolland meeting

First topic message reminder :

'Coach Warren Gatland will ignore protocol and not meet referee Alain Rolland before Wales' match against South Africa on Saturday.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24814317

What the chuff?!

Scrumpy wrote:"masterminded"

A middle ranking AP or Rabo team would have beaten that Aus team.

Makes perfect sense after England scraped past a very similar Aussie side at home to the one that got trounced in Sydney  

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Casartelli wrote:He bottled it at Warburtongate.  The red card may have been the 'right' call but you can't suddenly decide, during a game of that magnitude, that you'll be the one ref on the planet that shows the red for that offence.  It would have been the same if he'd suddenly decided to blow the whistle for every crooked feed at scrum time.

It was the out-of-the-blue inconsistency that was so irritating.  We'd still have lost, probably.

Presumably there is no IRB rule that states a coach HAS to meet with a ref?

The red was 'right' but it was 'wrong'?

Wrong because a Welsh player was the perpetrator?  Had it been a SA player.................  Rolland would be getting crates of champagne sent to his dressing room at the weekend. Fact................

Hand on heart, if we won a game, even England at Twickers, in similar circumstances with an opposition player sent off after some inconsistent officiating, then I couldn't enjoy the hollowness.

Unless it was Ashton, obviously.

Too true, do you remember the game V Scotland, when  Scott Murray got sent for kicking Gough (even though Gough deserved it and more).  That felt pretty hollow.

Walsh - "under the laws of the game, mate" etc. - even though Goughie was pleading with him not to send Murray off! What a gent. He wouldn't refuse to meet a ref, even Rolland.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:"masterminded"

A middle ranking AP or Rabo team would have beaten that Aus team.

Makes perfect sense after England scraped past a very similar Aussie side at home to the one that got trounced in Sydney  

The Aus team last week was a step up in quality than the shower of Poopie that played in the Lions series.

Did you not see the latest AB V Aus game?  

Scrumpy wrote:No smoke without fire.

Just another dull mind game from Gatland as he knows the crowd will be on the Refs back from the first whistle.

He should be fined.

He should be fined  
Haha next joke

Scrumpy wrote:"masterminded"

A middle ranking AP or Rabo team would have beaten that Aus team.

Aus would have but 100 points on Bath.

Scrumpy wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:"masterminded"

A middle ranking AP or Rabo team would have beaten that Aus team.

Makes perfect sense after England scraped past a very similar Aussie side at home to the one that got trounced in Sydney  

The Aus team last week was a step up in quality than the shower of Poopie that played in the Lions series.

Did you not see the latest AB V Aus game?  

Didn't you see the first two Lions tests, back-to-back tests against NZ, SA and Arg? Their form has been quite erratic. I think if they kept Deans they would have got one over on NZ or SA. It's still a decent Aus team now as it was back then.

Scrumpy wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:"masterminded"

A middle ranking AP or Rabo team would have beaten that Aus team.

Makes perfect sense after England scraped past a very similar Aussie side at home to the one that got trounced in Sydney  

The Aus team last week was a step up in quality than the shower of Poopie that played in the Lions series.

Did you not see the latest AB V Aus game?  

There's only only one 'poopie' here pal:whistle:  

Steve Walsh may not be a top ref, but when he blows his whistle he knows for sure what he thinks and sticks to it

Yeah and it’s usually

“I haven’t seen myself in a camera close up for the last five minutes so I’ll blow up against these Phekers in the white strip – I hate them. Big question is should I pout or do a wry smile when they zoom in for me.”

What a storm in a teacup this story is

IronMike wrote:What a storm in a teacup this story is

Perfect 606v2 fodder then  

Casartelli wrote:He bottled it at Warburtongate.  The red card may have been the 'right' call but you can't suddenly decide, during a game of that magnitude, that you'll be the one ref on the planet that shows the red for that offence.  It would have been the same if he'd suddenly decided to blow the whistle for every crooked feed at scrum time.

It was the out-of-the-blue inconsistency that was so irritating.  We'd still have lost, probably.

Presumably there is no IRB rule that states a coach HAS to meet with a ref?

It wasn't out of the blue, the refs had been told to crack down on tip tackles and so he did.

nathan wrote:

Casartelli wrote:He bottled it at Warburtongate.  The red card may have been the 'right' call but you can't suddenly decide, during a game of that magnitude, that you'll be the one ref on the planet that shows the red for that offence.  It would have been the same if he'd suddenly decided to blow the whistle for every crooked feed at scrum time.

It was the out-of-the-blue inconsistency that was so irritating.  We'd still have lost, probably.

Presumably there is no IRB rule that states a coach HAS to meet with a ref?

It wasn't out of the blue, the refs had been told to crack down on tip tackles and so he did.

I can't remember any other Red cards at the RWC for that mind. The sudden OTT red carding and banning for tackling came after the poop-strom about Warbs being sent.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

nathan wrote:

Casartelli wrote:He bottled it at Warburtongate.  The red card may have been the 'right' call but you can't suddenly decide, during a game of that magnitude, that you'll be the one ref on the planet that shows the red for that offence.  It would have been the same if he'd suddenly decided to blow the whistle for every crooked feed at scrum time.

It was the out-of-the-blue inconsistency that was so irritating.  We'd still have lost, probably.

Presumably there is no IRB rule that states a coach HAS to meet with a ref?

It wasn't out of the blue, the refs had been told to crack down on tip tackles and so he did.

I can't remember any other Red cards at the RWC for that mind.  The sudden OTT red carding and banning for tackling came after the poop-strom about Warbs being sent.

There were softer reds though. I seem to recall a Samoan Paul Williams getting a very soft red v SA two weeks before the Wales game.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

nathan wrote:

Casartelli wrote:He bottled it at Warburtongate.  The red card may have been the 'right' call but you can't suddenly decide, during a game of that magnitude, that you'll be the one ref on the planet that shows the red for that offence.  It would have been the same if he'd suddenly decided to blow the whistle for every crooked feed at scrum time.

It was the out-of-the-blue inconsistency that was so irritating.  We'd still have lost, probably.

Presumably there is no IRB rule that states a coach HAS to meet with a ref?

It wasn't out of the blue, the refs had been told to crack down on tip tackles and so he did.

I can't remember any other Red cards at the RWC for that mind.  The sudden OTT red carding and banning for tackling came after the poop-strom about Warbs being sent.

i don't think it did, i can remember the commentators saying during the game that the refs had been issued a directive cracking down on the tip tackle.

Also i don't understand why anyone would think it's OTT. He tipped him and dropped him, it's a clear cut red.

Nathan - ref had been asked to clamp down on crooked feeds, and wonky lineouts too. I think to be honest the best way putting it is that, at the moment, the refs are meant to be clamping down on the engagement and the feeding to the scrum. A crooked fed is a free kick, the second is a pen and the third is a yellow card. I personally have not seen a yellow card shown for it, or heard of it happening. Therefore when a ref does pull out the yellow for the first time there will be uproar, and most likely the other refs will think 'thank go he did it, now I can too' and start dishing out cards too.

Rolland was the first to give the tip-tackle red card, and after that there were a spate of cards and bans for boarderline offences. (Stephen Jones picked up his only yellow card in over13 years of top flight rugby for a good hard dump tackle, but the feet were deamed to have gone above horizontal so he was carded.) So I would say even though technically he was right, and technically Warbs and WRU should have expected it, the red card was still somewhat out of the blue.

Anyhow, it is good to see one throw away comment from someone somewhere, led to lazy journos running a non-story and us all arguing a pointless argument that we had two years ago.

nathan wrote:Also i don't understand why anyone would think it's OTT. He tipped him and dropped him, it's a clear cut red.

JUst to clarify I was not saying OTT about Warburton's card, I was on about the numerous cards and citings that seemed to be occurring in the Rabo/Jeff/S15 for a while post RWC. The amount of pens, and cards given for legit tackles, that were called tip tackles, were unbelievable, and very over the top.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Nathan - ref had been asked to clamp down on crooked feeds, and wonky lineouts too.  I think to be honest the best way putting it is that, at the moment, the refs are meant to be clamping down on the engagement and the feeding to the scrum.  A crooked fed is a free kick, the second is a pen and the third is a yellow card.  I personally have not seen a yellow card shown for it, or heard of it happening.  Therefore when a ref does pull out the yellow for the first time there will be uproar, and most likely the other refs will think 'thank go he did it, now I can too' and start dishing out cards too.

Rolland was the first to give the tip-tackle red card, and after that there were a spate of cards and bans for boarderline offences.  (Stephen Jones picked up his only yellow card in over13 years of top flight rugby for a good hard dump tackle, but the feet were deamed to have gone above horizontal so he was carded.)  So I would say even though technically he was right, and technically Warbs and WRU should have expected it, the red card was still somewhat out of the blue.

Anyhow, it is good to see one throw away comment from someone somewhere, led to lazy journos running a non-story and us all arguing a pointless argument that we had two years ago.

I was just pointing out that the red card wasn't OTT, it's written in the laws. I understand what your saying though, they had been told to clamp down on it before the match.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

nathan wrote:Also i don't understand why anyone would think it's OTT. He tipped him and dropped him, it's a clear cut red.

JUst to clarify I was not saying OTT about Warburton's card, I was on about the numerous cards and citings that seemed to be occurring in the Rabo/Jeff/S15 for a while post RWC.  The amount of pens, and cards given for legit tackles, that were called tip tackles, were unbelievable, and very over the top.

ah right, sorry misunderstood you. Thought you were saying the red was OTT, was about to put you in the same category as the welsh pundit commentating at the same time. lol He didn't even think it was a yellow!

Nathan, looks like we both got crosswires on the OTT thing  

So, just to confirm, the IRB did issue a 'directive' before the RWC, which was ignored by all the other refs throughout the entire tournament.

In the 'pressure cooker environment' of a RWC semi, Rolland red cards a fairly innocuous (albeit technically incorrect), completely non-malicious tackle and ruins the game.

Bottled it.

Is Gatland still refusing to meet him? Any updates?

Gatland is having tea with Keith Wood at 4pm today to mull over the technicalities of whether he should or should not meet with Rolland

They'll also be drawing up a joint Christmas card list. (Willie John's doing the newsletter.)

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

nathan wrote:Also i don't understand why anyone would think it's OTT. He tipped him and dropped him, it's a clear cut red.

JUst to clarify I was not saying OTT about Warburton's card, I was on about the numerous cards and citings that seemed to be occurring in the Rabo/Jeff/S15 for a while post RWC.  The amount of pens, and cards given for legit tackles, that were called tip tackles, were unbelievable, and very over the top.

+1 They went overboard. A well executed 'dump' tackle was a thing of beauty. At the highest levels one could rev up a team and a crowd while right down in underage rugby it could mean days of teammates eulogising or poking fun at the moment, depending on which side of the tackle a player was on.

Just a comment off ref James Jones.

James Jones wrote:There has been some hype in the press this week that Wales coach Warren Gatland was not due to be having a meeting with Alain ahead of tomorrow's match with many calling this a snub. For me this is just paper talk and I'm sure the squad and coaches are not allowing that to be a distraction Gats will have met him on several occasions and at Test level in particular the analysis team will have prepared the squad and coaches well about areas he is hot on.

Coaches having meetings with top class seasoned referees is now becoming less and less and for that reason. I don't feel it is a mistake or a 'snub' at Roller in any way. If you think about it our players will know more about him first-hand due to him refereeing in Heineken Cup and RaboDirect PRO12

I can understand South African coach Heyneke Meyer having more reason to meet with him as they will be less familiar and he no doubt would want to chat about there being a possible North v South interpretation, just to get clarification.

The point might be that this thread wouldn't exist if there was nothing in the idea that Gatland chooses not to meet Rolland.  If there is nothing of note in that decision (as James Jones suggests) then the decision, if that is his decision, wouldn't need to be communicated to anyone who would then expediently inform the media.

If there is nothing to see here - as it were - then there should be nothing to....see here.

Gatland knows exactly how to plot out his pre-game movements and words - he's a master of spin.  If people are chatting about him 'snubbing' Rolland, then you can be certain it's not something he hadn't already planned to be in the public domain in the first place.  
Going on form...here now is the pull back - "wasn't meant that way at all".  We've been here before.

It's all just part of the pre-game entertainment.

It's also Sport Psychology 101 - deflect all attention away from the players. Alex Ferguson was very good at it too. Let the media direct their heat at the coach, which means that the players slip under the radar pre-game. An easy way to do it is to come out with something controversial before the game. When it winds the opposition up to a point where it improves their performance, then it's been done badly, but where there players escape the spotlight then it's been carried out well. I haven't heard the media talk much about the Wales players in the run up to this one, which is a deliberate ploy from Gatland IMO, and he's done a good job of it.

Gats will be hailed as a genius again around 19:00 hours.

The Saint wrote:Gats will be hailed as a genius again around 19:00 hours.