Wales vs South Africa continued.

by **Biltong** Mon 11 Nov 2013, 5:39 pm

I am about to lock the SA vs Wales thread as it is coming to 1000 posts.

I thought you might find this article worthwhile to continue the discussion. A mate of mine found this.

Wales still searching for a way to beat South Africa

Monday, November 11, 2013South Wales Evening PostFollow
By Mark Orders

IF Test rugby were a Friday night out, South Africa would undoubtedly be the bouncers, manhandling those who dare to challenge them, acting first and asking questions later.

Headlocks all round.

Jonathan Davies goes off injured and (inset) Adam Jones goes off the field.

Black eyes and bruises for those on the receiving end.

Alain Rolland? If it were a Welsh pub he'd be the chap in the corner without any friends.

Wales? Let's just say they'd probably spend most of the evening queuing for a drink without actually getting to complete the transaction.

This was a strange game in many respects.

The possession and territory stats suggested Wales held the upper hand.

But the try count was 3-0 in South Africa's favour and in contact the hosts were banged and shunted around almost from the first whistle.

It says much for their character that they kept coming back for more, with Richard Hibbard and Gethin Jenkins two who gave as good as they got.

But the mixed zone after the game told a story.

Jenkins had a black eye, so did Scott Williams.

Jonathan Davies came through with his arm in a sling, while Adam Jones negotiated his way down the stairs on crutches.

Liam Williams was being checked out after being on the wrong end of an uncompromising forearm/karate chop to the throat area from Bismarck du Plessis in the build-up to the first try.

And while Scott Andrews wasn't sighted after the game he was reported to have been subbed at half-time because of a neck injury, lasting just nine minutes and eight seconds on the field.

Such is life against the Springboks.

Popeye and seven clones might have struggled to win an arm wrestle with this lot.

Wales displayed such an appetite for battle that the probability is they would have beaten any other Six Nations side on the day. They had lost Jonathan Davies, Liam Williams and Adam Jones in the first half hour yet refused to lose heart or wave the white flag at forward.

But being good enough to boss the Six Nations is one thing.

Being able to better a side like South Africa is quite another.

There was a power deficit evident in the way Welsh players were repeatedly smashed back behind the gain-line.

It was demonstrated early on when Bradley Davies took the ball on with a high body position, only to be greeted by a welcoming party made up of Willem Alberts, Flip van der Merwe and Frans Malherbe.

The three forwards thumped into the Blues man with the impact of a dumper truck, driving him backwards for Bryan Habana to force a penalty with a jackal.

Davies, who was actually one of Wales's better performers overall, emerged from the episode with a cut mouth and blood trickling down his chin. It is to his credit that his resolve didn't waver.

A not wildly dissimilar fate befell Rhys Priestland soon after, when he ventured forward — poor chap.

From 50 yards, it looked akin to heading into the Bermuda Triangle, with worries that the Wales fly-half might never be seen again.

Alberts and his back-row buddy Duane Vermeulen engulfed Priestland, with Alberts seeming to have an interest in detaching the Welshman's head from his shoulders.

It was a recurring theme.

Alun Wyn Jones worked tirelessly but kept getting hammered down, making just a metre forward with his seven ball carries.

It wasn't just about muscle, either.

The world's second best side also showed a clinical streak that even the best northern hemisphere teams can only dream about.

It was never more evident than when Habana spotted Scott Williams down injured and then picked out a potential mismatch in the defensive line, with Hibbard exposed.

There followed the equivalent of a razor ripping through the Welsh cover.

Hibbard was beaten for pace and George North failed to get across as Habana tore clear.

Du Plessis carried the move on, en route laying out Liam Williams before offloading to Jean De Villiers for the try.

It was utterly devastating, a lesson in how to finish.

Adding to Welsh woe, Jonathan Davies suffered a suspected pectoral muscle injury trying to prevent the score.

One try, two injuries — as minutes go, it wasn't a great one for Wales.

Warren Gatland later spoke of the problem being that South Africa are used to playing at such an intensity and tempo, while his players, most of whom ply their trade in the Pro12, are not.

Gatland said: "Talk to our players about coming out of club and regional rugby (into Test rugby) and they will tell you it's like chalk and cheese.

"I wish we could play South Africa next week. Playing the best in the world is what prepares us."

Such is the lot of Wales's national coach.

Sixteen years ago, after his side had been lacerated 42-7 by New Zealand, Kevin Bowring was on a similar beat.

"We need to play against the best to develop the skill to play at this intensity," he said then.

"We were at the edge of our skill levels playing at that intensity — the players will learn a lot from it."

It is doubtful if Wales will ever play in a domestic league that matches the Super 15, so all Gatland and whoever succeeds him can do is try to make the best of a difficult situation.

Worryingly for the hosts, the Springboks felt they hadn't played particularly well on Saturday.

It all might have been different had Jonathan Davies stayed on the pitch. He made two significant breaks before succumbing to injury.

While he was on the field, Wales looked half-dangerous.

But then the injuries struck and Habana chose to show exactly how much damage pace can do.

As South Africa celebrated the try he set up and Welsh players lay strewn over the Millennium Stadium turf, an old quote of Mike Tyson's came to mind: "Every fighter's got a plan until he gets hit in the mouth."

To their credit, after superlative efforts from the likes of Hibbard and Jenkins, Wales were still in the game at 17-15 when South Africa scored a try that should not have been.

Firstly, Rhys Priestland should either have clattered Jaque Fourie into row nine of the stand or been more assertive in going for a bouncing ball. Instead he fatally hesitated, allowing the centre to pass to Fourie du Preez.

Regardless of that, Fourie was offside, so the try should not have stood.

Whatever, South Africa deserved their success.

Wales matched them for effort.

But their kicking game was poor, they lost too many collisions and could probably still be playing and still would not have scored a try.

The system doesn't help them.

But after 16 years and counting, you'd think someone would have got to grips with the core of the problem.

This is supposed to be a golden age for Wales in international rugby.

Try telling that to the Springboks

.

by Jhamer25 Mon 11 Nov 2013, 6:10 pm

Good article thumbsup

by doctornickolas Mon 11 Nov 2013, 6:13 pm

I think that's a very good and fair report.

Wales lacked power at the contact area and guile when they had the ball. Wales needs something new in its armoury. The power game is all very well until you come up against someone bigger and more powerful than you.

by samuraidragon Mon 11 Nov 2013, 6:15 pm

Three tries -

1. Great break from deep by Habana, skinned North. Liam Williams was one on one with Du Plessis on the 22. Can't fault the boy's courage, but tackling technique was poor and very dangerous (to himself).

2. Raw power from the Boks forwards. Unstoppable.

3. Should never have happened. It was two against two, and our two were closer to the ball. Humiliating to see Du Preez strolling under the posts (great skill from Fourie, of course.)

Above article is a good summary.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 12 Nov 2013, 11:34 am

doctornickolas wrote:Wales needs something new in its armoury. The power game is all very well until you come up against someone bigger and more powerful than you.

Precisely. But this coaching team has been in situ for years now - including Rob Howley. Where's the development of our attacking game? How much longer do we wait before wielding the axe?

by butterfingers Tue 12 Nov 2013, 12:06 pm

samuraidragon wrote:
Three tries -

1. Great break from deep by Habana, skinned North. Liam Williams was one on one with Du Plessis on the 22. Can't fault the boy's courage, but tackling technique was poor and very dangerous (to himself).

2. Raw power from the Boks forwards. Unstoppable.

3. Should never have happened. It was two against two, and our two were closer to the ball. Humiliating to see Du Preez strolling under the posts (great skill from Fourie, of course.)

Above article is a good summary.

Did you watch the game after a few Saturday, I only caught it Sunday but I saw things very different...

1. Great break by Habana skinning Hibbard, Williams slips into contact unfortunately, great hands to go over the line.

2. Raw power, but there are still question marks on how the ball got so far back, how Du plessis was allowed to step away from the maul and back in, and how he drops his bind to look up and change shoulders twice.

3. Habana knocks on into Hooks face, Fourie is touch and go onside, WTF RP was doing I don't know, pretty humiliating!

by Bullsbok Tue 12 Nov 2013, 12:34 pm

butterfingers wrote:
samuraidragon wrote:
Three tries -

1. Great break from deep by Habana, skinned North. Liam Williams was one on one with Du Plessis on the 22. Can't fault the boy's courage, but tackling technique was poor and very dangerous (to himself).

2. Raw power from the Boks forwards. Unstoppable.

3. Should never have happened. It was two against two, and our two were closer to the ball. Humiliating to see Du Preez strolling under the posts (great skill from Fourie, of course.)

Above article is a good summary.
Did you watch the game after a few Saturday, I only caught it Sunday but I saw things very different...

1. Great break by Habana skinning Hibbard, Williams slips into contact unfortunately, great hands to go over the line.

2. Raw power, but there are still question marks on how the ball got so far back, how Du plessis was allowed to step away from the maul and back in, and how he drops his bind to look up and change shoulders twice.

3. Habana knocks on into Hooks face, Fourie is touch and go onside, WTF RP was doing I don't know, pretty humiliating!

Where are the Welsh tries then if the Springbok tries are all unfortunate mistakes and errors missed by the ref?

by BlueNote Tue 12 Nov 2013, 12:43 pm

The Springbok tries were making the most of the opportunities that came their way, clinically taken. Wales were a bit unlucky for the first try that Scott Williams was down getting treatment so you got the mismatch with Hibbard defending a lot of space against Habana, but then Habana had the vision to see it and the skill to take full advantage. You can see that as a bit unlucky for Wales, but SA having the skill to take advantage.
I thought SA would score even if Williams had tackled du Plessis, my impression from being there, they had numbers in support and Wales were all over the place by then.

by offload Tue 12 Nov 2013, 9:11 pm

Biltong - you're such a tease. !000+ posts of agony and you go and start it all over again.
Wink

by **Biltong** Tue 12 Nov 2013, 9:20 pm

You boys were doing so well, I didn't want to stop your fun. Smile

by GloriousEmpire Tue 12 Nov 2013, 9:28 pm

Ireland leapt over Wales in the rankings. Didn't spot that one.

by Cyril Tue 12 Nov 2013, 9:30 pm

GE, they did just destroy a side above them in the rankings.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 12 Nov 2013, 9:33 pm

Fair enough. Not much to pick between Ireland and Wales in my mind. Especially in the centres.

by Bluedragon Tue 12 Nov 2013, 9:39 pm

Well to be honest we've only ever beaten SA once.

Great win for the Boks taking their 3 chances well. They seemed a bit more canny at the breakdown too, though the yellow card was a bit harsh.Thought at 17 -15 Wales might drop a goal to set up a tense end but the Boks sneaked a dodgy try. Can't blame them for that - only the ref and the video ref are to blame. seems some refs check every try, even the obvious ones. Some don't it seems. Crying or Very sad

Would have set the match for a nail biting end if that last try had been disallowed !

by Guest Tue 12 Nov 2013, 9:56 pm

Cyril wrote:GE, they did just destroy a side above them in the rankings.

But why don't people show Samoa respect?!

by englandglory4ever Tue 12 Nov 2013, 11:22 pm

Article way too long. Feel tired off to bed now.

by Higher_Ground Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:26 am

You cannot doubt that South Africa deserved their win.

I thought that Wales came out with a decent strategy to move the ball and exploit the potential weakness of the JDV/JF centre partnership, and for an instant, it looked like they had.
Few very poor refereeing decisions DIDN'T alter the fact that SA were the better team.
I think Du Plessis, went in behind a host of blockers without even pretending to bind to the maul, and JF was technically offside, although what bothers me about this try is that Priestland gift-wrapped it for them, JF being a few feet in front was neither here nor there quite frankly.

Sin binning both props is such an absurdity. The SA prop has just come on, and received a warning not to drop it or he'll be sent off. WHY ON EARTH would he then want to drop that scrum? Is Rollaind saying that if Gethin Jenkins decides to dive 10 metres out of the scrum and do a little dance, that both props are still going?

I haven't seen anyone pick up on AWJ leaving the field. I only saw it once (through a few beers), but it looked to me like a potential stamp on him (again I only saw it once), and there was nothing much in it, but the TMO was shouting "Allain - do you want to check an offense???!!", but Rollaind decided he couldn't hear him, so ignored it.
What on earth is that about?
SA clearly won the contact, and even if Wales could match them - which they did at certain times - surely that just means cancelling them out, not actually gaining an upper hand?

by munkian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:43 am

Trying to out play a side at their own syle was tactical madness. Our players fronted up admirably but there were never going to win that way.

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:19 pm

I have to be honest here.

I am getting a little tired of the justifications I have heard why each of our tries should not have been given.

The fact is many times in a game a team benefits from incorrect decisions, not only when they score penalties or tries, but field position is lost, advantage of putting a team under pressure is lost etc.

the fact is not one game is error free by referees.

We have lost many games by virtue of wrong decisions. The fact remains that each of those tries were executed, advantage taken and clinically finished.

I am not aiming this at anyone in particular, but it is slightly frustrating to read the varying degrees of justification for each South African score.

1. Bismarck hit Liam Williams off his feet and bulldozed him, yes he braced for the tackle, but as the example of the article I attached in the Op, it was not a karate chop. The try was legitimate and bloody well done.

2. The maul try was socred as many like it, I have advocated that mauls should be pulled down, purely because if well executed it is near impossible to stop. whether you deem obstruction has taken place or not, or whether Bismarck disengaged and reengaged the maul fifteen times, Wales was not able to stop it, like a number of other mauls, we were clearly superior in that area.

3. Jaque fourie was in front of Fourie du preez, yes, by half a step, yes I checked it, not 2 meters as I have read been suggested.

The point I am making, Wales benefitted from penalties I found debatable at best, in fact some should have been going our way.

The fact is wales stayed in the game by virtue of Halfpenny's boot, he is a brilliant kicker.

But wales never looked like crossing the white wash, SA did that 3 times, Debating whether the score could have been this or that is totally moot.

Like I say, we have lost numerous games due to refereeing errors, the one that comes to mind recently was against the AB's in the rugby Championship.

Please accept the result and accept the fact that the springboks were good enough to win.

It is beginning to feel just like the article I put in the OP, that with every little bit of compliment coming SA's way, a seed of justification is added for the manner of their scores.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:27 pm

Biltong, there's no question the Boks were good value for the win. If any of the 'dubious' tries had been disallowed, I'm sure you'd have upped your game and scored another. But at the same time, I don't see what's wrong with mentioning officiating errors when there were officiating errors. No one's making anything up. Surely it's possible to point them out whilst also acknowledging that the better side won?

by munkian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:28 pm

I don't think anyone can honestly suggest the Boks weren't good enough to win...

Whats the point of a rugby forum if you don't debate about past or future matches though ?

'But wales never looked like crossing the white wash, SA did that 3 times, Debating whether the score could have been this or that is totally moot'

Not true, JD2 seemed very threatening before he went off, made some great breaks. And before anyone starts, no, I'm not saying we lost because he went off but any top team would struggle with similar injuries to those positions.

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:30 pm

LP, the only one I remotely agree with is Fourie du Preez' try, I conceded that at the time it was scored.

Bismarck's try from the maul is as legitimate as any of 100 maul tries I have seen during the years, and Jean de Villiers try, or should I say Bismarck's rump of Liam Williams is a legitimate as 100 romps I have seen.

by TJ Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:30 pm

JD2 was the only welsh player who really looked like troubling the Boks. He looks like the answer at centre to me

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:32 pm

munkian wrote:Not true, JD2 seemed very threatening before he went off, made some great breaks. And before anyone starts, no, I'm not saying we lost because he went off but any top team would struggle with similar injuries to those positions

I totally agree with you, he caused a number of holes in the defence before he went off, but that was always to be expected that the communication between Jean and Jaque would take time to settle.

Not saying he wasn't the one good enough, he knew there will be an initial communication gap and exploited that.

But once they settled the defence immediately improved.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:34 pm

I'm not one to go back and watch matches over and over again; I watch each match once, and if there's a highlights show, I'll watch that. I agree that the only one that stood out was du Preez's try, and you must admit that it would have been disallowed if it had gone to the TMO.

But again, that's not to say you wouldn't have scored another. If Beast hadn't fumbled the ball, you'd already have scored three by then.

If you want fans of a side you've beaten to bow, clap and not mention things like that after a match, then I'm afraid you might have to wait a long time. They weren't insignificant.

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:38 pm

No necessity to clap, or bow down, just kiss our feet and ask permission to get up. Very Happy

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:42 pm

Really though, I don't think anyone has suggested the better side lost.

by Bullsbok Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:45 pm

Biltong wrote:LP, the only one I remotely agree with is Fourie du Preez' try, I conceded that at the time it was scored.

Bismarck's try from the maul is as legitimate as any of 100 maul tries I have seen during the years, and Jean de Villiers try, or should I say Bismarck's rump of Liam Williams is a legitimate as 100 romps I have seen.

Yup , standard Maul try .As for supposedly disengaging 100 times to slap away a hand . either way you look at it , its a penalty because theres no way anyone should have their hands on Bismarck at the back of a moving maul anyway seeing as that would make it offside and penalty boks.

On a side note , mauls can be stopped as Eztebeth , Louw Vermulen and alberts proved when they stopped a Welsh maul dead in its tracks.

by jimmyinthewell68 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:48 pm

Wales are touring south Africa next year Cool

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:50 pm

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:Wales are touring south Africa next year

Looking forward to that.

by jimmyinthewell68 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:52 pm

Biltong wrote:
jimmyinthewell68 wrote:Wales are touring south Africa next year
Looking forward to that.

wish i could say the same

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:55 pm

I'd love to travel over for that. A couple of bank jobs and I might be able to afford it!

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:57 pm

Come on! you know you want to come. Wales vs South Africa continued. 3933776953

by jimmyinthewell68 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 1:05 pm

can you put us up bill Very Happy

by **Biltong** Wed 13 Nov 2013, 1:55 pm

jimmy, I'll make a plan to accommodate anyone that comes. Even if you have to sleep on the couch.

by Guest Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:03 pm

TJ wrote:JD2 was the only welsh player who really looked like troubling the Boks. He looks like the answer at centre to me

The answer?! That would suggest that he's a rookie or something and looked good on debut Headscratch

37 caps in, we know that he's the answer!

Maybe I have misunderstood you!

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:05 pm

Biltong wrote:jimmy, I'll make a plan to accommodate anyone that comes. Even if you have to sleep on the couch.

But whatever you do, don't kick his dog!

by jimmyinthewell68 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:13 pm

Im an animal lover luckless and its prob a lion . we got gatland until the world cup and his tactics are not going to change . i wonder how much that 30 -3 England game was Howleys way because by the looks hes prob the next coach

by Higher_Ground Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:20 pm

If none of the Boks trys had been given, they look like they could have found another way to win. I think it's more a general musing on the current situation with regard to the TMO, as in - why have these powers if they are not used? - particularly in an instance where the TMO can be actively heard to be shouting in the ref's ear about a potential offence.
Expected better from Mr 'letter of the law' Rollaind.

As Welsh supporters there's only so many times we can talk about the poor team selections that blight our chances at every turn, coupled with a Springboks Light TM gameplan. So we think about this stuff.

by Higher_Ground Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:21 pm

Incidently I say remove the TMO powers and just let them decide on the act of scoring, like previously.

by fa0019 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:33 pm

Many of here that know the bok game well have been banging on about the same thing for yonks now.

If people think that the best way to play the boks is to try and simply out muscle them then your chances are near zero. The number of times I've seen it in 20+ years can be counted on 1 hand... those sides which did it were all established teams of note.

by BlueNote Wed 13 Nov 2013, 3:10 pm

I thought the Liam Williams bit was just about him slipping, so he was not quite where he or BdP expected him to be. Can't see any problem with it.

by fa0019 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 5:00 pm

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:Im an animal lover luckless and its prob a lion . we got gatland until the world cup and his tactics are not going to change . i wonder how much that 30 -3 England game was Howleys way because by the looks hes prob the next coach

I think it was more to do with England playing Joe Marler and Tom Youngs in the front row against Jones and Hibbard to be honest.

by Bullsbok Wed 13 Nov 2013, 5:06 pm

fa0019 wrote:Many of here that know the bok game well have been banging on about the same thing for yonks now.

If people think that the best way to play the boks is to try and simply out muscle them then your chances are near zero. The number of times I've seen it in 20+ years can be counted on 1 hand... those sides which did it were all established teams of note.

I wonder what the lineout call is when its five meters from the scrum , bok ball ......"We're throwing to Eztebeth then setting up the mall .Try and Stop us " laughing

by fa0019 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 5:12 pm

Bullsbok wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Many of here that know the bok game well have been banging on about the same thing for yonks now.

If people think that the best way to play the boks is to try and simply out muscle them then your chances are near zero. The number of times I've seen it in 20+ years can be counted on 1 hand... those sides which did it were all established teams of note.
I wonder what the lineout call is when its five meters from the scrum , bok ball ......"We're throwing to Eztebeth then setting up the mall .Try and Stop us "

Almost certainly would have changed their calls to English too... just to be sporting!

by GunsGerms Wed 13 Nov 2013, 5:14 pm

Griff wrote:
Cyril wrote:GE, they did just destroy a side above them in the rankings.
But why don't people show Samoa respect?!

I dont know maybe because Ireland usually destroy Samoa? Was it that much of a shock?

by maestegmafia Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:38 am

Just watching the match now.

Great game.

Great to see such a round of applause for Joost van der Westhuizen
A hell of a Rugby player.

by munkian Fri 15 Nov 2013, 11:54 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Griff wrote:
Cyril wrote:GE, they did just destroy a side above them in the rankings.
But why don't people show Samoa respect?!
I dont know maybe because Ireland usually destroy Samoa? Was it that much of a shock?

I think the margin of victory was a shock considering your form in the 6 nations and having a new coach - Samoa have improved alot over the last few seasons

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