JD2 to Clermont next season

First topic message reminder :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10442435/Jonathan-Davies-to-join-Clermont-Auvergne-from-Llanelli-Scarlets-as-exodus-of-Wales-players-to-France-continues.html

beshocked wrote:
Whocares yes of course football is still the no 1 sport in France by some distance but rugby union keeps growing.

Not in all of France it isn't and that is key. There are regions of France where rugby dominate.

I have been on 2 holidays recently to the south of france - one on the Atlantic coast and one on the Med.
In both cases there was not a football in sight on the beaches but plenty of rugby balls.

It is the same as South Africa - for a certain segment of the population rugby is the number one game and that is key

This article from 2009 always makes me laugh

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7980339.stm

""The rule will start to be applied progressively, with 50% of home-grown players in 2010/11 and 70% as of the 2011/12 season," said the French rugby league (LNR)."

The French really should be looking at introducing this again, and sticking with it this time.

Geoff true but you still have big football sides in the South of France. Sides like Marseille and Toulouse.

Also don't forget that in South Africa, South Africa are vastly superior in rugby union compared to their football counterparts.

wales606 wrote:Ian Evans and Bradley Davies are both moving to France apparently,

(Ian Evans to Toulon http://www.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2013-14/rugby/story/205837.html)

This is getting rediculous.

I knew getting BT Sport was a good idea  

Just come back from a few days out of the loop to discover this. I fully understand it, however I really wonder how much the WRU have done to stop this, where is the £1m they offered to keep players in Wales, and where are the temp. central contracts for internationals until the HEC/RCC is sorted out?

wales606 wrote:Pretty sure the abroad team could thrash the home team now

1. Paul James
2. *Richard Hibbard*
3. Craig Mitchell *Adam Jones*
4. Bradley Davies/Ian Evans
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. *Sam Warburton*
8. Gareth Delve
9. Mike Phillips
10. James Hook *Rhys Priestland*
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. *Leigh Halfpenny*
15. Lee Byrne

Filled in the blanks for you with players that may yet still go.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just come back from a few days out of the loop to discover this.  I fully understand it, however I really wonder how much the WRU have done to stop this, where is the £1m they offered to keep players in Wales, and where are the temp. central contracts for internationals until the HEC/RCC is sorted out?

It's all Fukushima on Scarlet Fever, understandibly and Armegeddon for all of us.
I thought the 4 had agreed not to accept the now infamous "£1m" offer from Roger the cabin boy, as it had far too many strings attached.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wales606 wrote:Pretty sure the abroad team could thrash the home team now

1. Paul James
2. *Richard Hibbard*
3. Craig Mitchell *Adam Jones*
4. Bradley Davies/Ian Evans
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. *Sam Warburton*
8. Gareth Delve
9. Mike Phillips
10. James Hook *Rhys Priestland*
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. *Leigh Halfpenny*
15. Lee Byrne

Filled in the blanks for you with players that may yet still go.

Bench looks weak.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just come back from a few days out of the loop to discover this.  I fully understand it, however I really wonder how much the WRU have done to stop this, where is the £1m they offered to keep players in Wales, and where are the temp. central contracts for internationals until the HEC/RCC is sorted out?

The impression I have is that RRW turned their back on that offer as it gives control of the regions top Welsh players over to WRU? Might be wrong, but it is the thinking of some on the regions forums.

Then the regions have only themselves to blame if they refused the offer on the table.

And if the offer on the table meant that the player wouldn't be theirs?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just come back from a few days out of the loop to discover this.  I fully understand it, however I really wonder how much the WRU have done to stop this, where is the £1m they offered to keep players in Wales, and where are the temp. central contracts for internationals until the HEC/RCC is sorted out?

It's all Fukushima on Scarlet Fever, understandibly and Armegeddon for all of us.
I thought the 4 had agreed not to accept the now infamous "£1m" offer from Roger the cabin boy, as it had far too many strings attached.

I guess that is fair enough if we told him to ram the deal. And to be fair, there are also other things to factor into this like the general disagreement between Scarlets players and management about how we dealt with George North, I know a few players were rumoured to have said that they would be unlikely to sign a new contract again unless things were dealt with better etc.

From a Scarlets point of view there is no arguing Jon will be a huge loss, but at least the centre is a position we actually have some depth in. Even if Scott Williams was to join Foxy in leaving we would still have Maule and Warren, with McShingler (and Gareth Owen, maybe) as cover.

The regions turn down the money offered by the WRU as they do not want to give up independance.

Now we get, what appears to be, a number of player leaving - coincidence?

Independance is great but if you have nothing on offer what are you?

Should the WRU just pick 4 well appointed clubs and start again?
Ditching the regions in the process
One thing is for sure the decline in Welsh regional rugby cannot continue.
The crowds have been going up but that could easily go into reverse

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And if the offer on the table meant that the player wouldn't be theirs?

True, I m gutted Foxy has left, especially with him being a local lad, however I would be heartbroken if he had left to join the Ospreys or Blues with the aid of the WRU.

I doubt the WRU would have moved players across the regions then again who knows with the WRU.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And if the offer on the table meant that the player wouldn't be theirs?

True, I m gutted Foxy has left, especially with him being a local lad, however I would be heartbroken if he had left to join the Ospreys or Blues with the aid of the WRU.

That's what I find so hard to understand, whilst obviously acknowledging the honesty of it.  But it just shows how different we all are and how our histories and allegiances are all different.  I could never say something similar if a Leinster player chose to go to Ulster instead of going to France or England.
To me, if a player stayed with the Provinces, any of them, then that's a bonus benefit coming from an obvious loss.  Better as a Welshman that Ospreys or Blues potentially won a European title with Davies than Clermont surely?  No?

geoff998rugby wrote:The regions turn down the money offered by the WRU as they do not want to give up independance.

Now we get, what appears to be, a number of player leaving - coincidence?

Independance is great but if you have nothing on offer what are you?

Should the WRU just pick 4 well appointed clubs and start again?
Ditching the regions in the process
One thing is for sure the decline in Welsh regional rugby cannot continue.
The crowds have been going up but that could easily go into reverse

 

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And if the offer on the table meant that the player wouldn't be theirs?

True, I m gutted Foxy has left, especially with him being a local lad, however I would be heartbroken if he had left to join the Ospreys or Blues with the aid of the WRU.

That's what I find so hard to understand, whilst obviously acknowledging the honesty of it.  But it just shows how different we all are and how our histories and allegiances are all different.  I could never say something similar if a Leinster player chose to go to Ulster instead of going to France or England.
To me, if a player stayed with the Provinces, any of them, then that's a bonus benefit coming from an obvious loss.  Better as a Welshman that Ospreys or Blues potentially won a European title with Davies than Clermont surely?  No?

I think you misunderstood what I meant, I would be heartbroken if Foxy were to go to the Blues/Ospreys/Dragons with the WRU funding the move, like they threatened to do with George North. If he had chosen to go there, and the Blues/Ospreys/Dragons funded the move themselves, I would be upset, but no more than with him going to France. But if the Union had stepped in with financial aid for another region to poach him I would be seriously outraged.

I generally like to watch all the welsh regions playing, and I generally hope that they will win their games too, obviously as long as their results don't impact on the Scarlets chances. And I was pleased to see the Blues win the Amlin, Ospreys/Blues EDF/LV= and obviously the Scarlets win the Rabo (and even the Ospreys when they did it).

Cardiff Dave wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The regions turn down the money offered by the WRU as they do not want to give up independance.

Now we get, what appears to be, a number of player leaving - coincidence?

Independance is great but if you have nothing on offer what are you?

Should the WRU just pick 4 well appointed clubs and start again?
Ditching the regions in the process
One thing is for sure the decline in Welsh regional rugby cannot continue.
The crowds have been going up but that could easily go into reverse

 

How about Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli, and Swansea? Sounds like there would be no problems getting support for those four.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The regions turn down the money offered by the WRU as they do not want to give up independance.

Now we get, what appears to be, a number of player leaving - coincidence?

Independance is great but if you have nothing on offer what are you?

Should the WRU just pick 4 well appointed clubs and start again?
Ditching the regions in the process
One thing is for sure the decline in Welsh regional rugby cannot continue.
The crowds have been going up but that could easily go into reverse

 

How about Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli, and Swansea?  Sounds like there would be no problems getting support for those four.

With promotion/demotion from and to the Welsh Prem maybe????

Could be the start of a new beginning!

At least it would delete the club antagonism.
Personnally Neath and Pontypool would get my vote

Now to be clear definitely posted tongue in cheek but to be honest the shambles that is Welsh regional rugby cannot continue for ever.

If, as seems quite likely 4/5 top players leave, and as consequence results decline both in Europe and Pro12 the whole situation will a big cause for concern.

Only 1 Welsh team qualifying for Europe, under the new rules, would not be good.

The central contracts offer was only temporary until the h-cup was sorted, and players would then revert back to their regions,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24647172

"The WRU adds that once the negotiations regarding the European tournament are concluded the agreed player contracts would revert to the regions."

It is interesting as to why this did not happen in this instance?


I do agree with geoff998rugby, that the slide of the regions cannot be allowed to continue. The RRW/WRU arguments need to be settled, and a proper system put in place.

The RRW really did show themselves up saying they sided with the RCC, against the Union.

Would 4 WRU controlled Unions be any better? They have owned 50% of Dragons and not done anything.

If they increased funding to Dragons and had the release and rest periods of all players guaranteed due to ownership, would the other regions be more willing to sell 50% of there share to the WRU?

Would have a situation where if would be like the Provinces but 50% of each province is in private ownership?

What about the possibly of fans owning the other 50%?

Follow the german football model rather than the Provinces model, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22625160

51% at least owned by fans, this normally sounds like it will be run badly but Bayern Munich is run as private company it is 82%-owned by its fans, and they are in pretty good shape at the minute.

I'd suggest 49% WRU to 51% fan ownership, and try a new model, it would certainly help build a connection between fans and the team, maybe its time for something new

If the management guys at the WRU are worth their salary packages, they'll 'turn this threat into an opportunity' and evolve the structure of Welsh rugby into something new and better.

whocares wrote:Assume he would replace Regan King (another ex scarlet ironically).

Just heard elsewhere that Regan King could, ironically, be replacing Jon Davies at PYS, on a player/coach role. It was talked about him returning on a coaching deal last season, and now it looks pretty likely he will be a player coach.

The £1M the WRU put up to keep players in Wales has a big stipulation, that being the regions would have to sign up to a new PA immediately to get it. That would be suicidal as it would mean they would be receiving less money than they are now without any European revenue coming from a new PA.

Welsh Magician wrote:The £1M the WRU put up to keep players in Wales has a big stipulation, that being the regions would have to sign up to a new PA immediately to get it. That would be suicidal as it would mean they would be receiving less money than they are now without any European revenue coming from a new PA.

Someone at the WRU had obviously found a 1990s sales technique flipchart in a dusty drawer.

"I can do this deal if you sign today........"

Top 14 rugby transfers, confirmed and rumoured;
http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/tableau-transferts-rugby-top-14-2012.html

Foxy confirmed, so the info has been updated recently.
Rumoured; S. Davies (surely not Nigel's son?) and Cuthbert linked to Racing. AWJ too. Warbs linked to Toulon with Shove. Priestland linked with Clermont. Some Leinster players in there as well which surprised me.

I had heard about Priest being tapped up by Clermont, and to be honet I would assume it is quite likely now, with life long friend and one time flat mate Foxy going there.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Top 14 rugby transfers, confirmed and rumoured;
http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/tableau-transferts-rugby-top-14-2012.html

Foxy confirmed, so the info has been updated recently.
Rumoured; S. Davies (surely not Nigel's son?) and Cuthbert linked to Racing. AWJ too. Warbs linked to Toulon with Shove. Priestland linked with Clermont. Some Leinster players in there as well which surprised me.

Good link but some of that is highly specualtive

And the fact that they are crying out for a consistent 10!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I had heard about Priest being tapped up by Clermont, and to be honet I would assume it is quite likely now, with life long friend and one time flat mate Foxy going there.

Would be a great move for Priestland (and possibly Wales) if any truth in it. Clermont seem to like dealing with the Scarlets.

So Pro12 is becoming a glorified feeder League.....

Nice

Cardiff Dave wrote:Top 14 rugby transfers, confirmed and rumoured;
http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/tableau-transferts-rugby-top-14-2012.html

Foxy confirmed, so the info has been updated recently.
Rumoured; S. Davies (surely not Nigel's son?) and Cuthbert linked to Racing. AWJ too. Warbs linked to Toulon with Shove. Priestland linked with Clermont. Some Leinster players in there as well which surprised me.

It's not just going to be us, it will be the Scots, Irish, Italians and even some English. No one can compete and there is no point in trying. Rumours with Sean O'Brien, Conor Murray and with Sexton already there. The Irish clubs are wealthy clubs but still have nothing with these greedy french sponsors, they are ruining European club rugby.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Top 14 rugby transfers, confirmed and rumoured;
http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/tableau-transferts-rugby-top-14-2012.html

Foxy confirmed, so the info has been updated recently.
Rumoured; S. Davies (surely not Nigel's son?) and Cuthbert linked to Racing. AWJ too. Warbs linked to Toulon with Shove. Priestland linked with Clermont. Some Leinster players in there as well which surprised me.

Good link but some of that is highly specualtive

yes from past experience this site is not reliable. the rumour part is quite random. most of the B&I Lions are advertised there.

Jhamer25 wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Top 14 rugby transfers, confirmed and rumoured;
http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/tableau-transferts-rugby-top-14-2012.html

Foxy confirmed, so the info has been updated recently.
Rumoured; S. Davies (surely not Nigel's son?) and Cuthbert linked to Racing. AWJ too. Warbs linked to Toulon with Shove. Priestland linked with Clermont. Some Leinster players in there as well which surprised me.

It's not just going to be us, it will be the Scots, Irish, Italians and even some English. No one can compete and there is no point in trying. Rumours with Sean O'Brien, Conor Murray and with Sexton already there. The Irish clubs are wealthy clubs but still have nothing with these greedy french sponsors, they are ruining European club rugby.

Blame whocares. He's probably funding a few of them, the scoundrel!

SecretFly wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Top 14 rugby transfers, confirmed and rumoured;
http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/tableau-transferts-rugby-top-14-2012.html

Foxy confirmed, so the info has been updated recently.
Rumoured; S. Davies (surely not Nigel's son?) and Cuthbert linked to Racing. AWJ too. Warbs linked to Toulon with Shove. Priestland linked with Clermont. Some Leinster players in there as well which surprised me.

It's not just going to be us, it will be the Scots, Irish, Italians and even some English. No one can compete and there is no point in trying. Rumours with Sean O'Brien, Conor Murray and with Sexton already there. The Irish clubs are wealthy clubs but still have nothing with these greedy french sponsors, they are ruining European club rugby.

Blame whocares.  He's probably funding a few of them, the scoundrel!

mmm you are probably right SF, went to see racing 5 times this year. the entrance fee, the few beers and the icecream (for my son) were just about enough to pay for ROG wages  

Sadly the exodus continues.Fair play to the players who have a living to make.
Our economy is in tatters so we cannot hope to compete.

C'est la vie!

The amount of players linked to Toulon and Racing is rediculous. Lets hope they both go bust before they destroy club rugby.

The WRU made it clear that the priority was the national side and clubs and subsequently Regions have suffered an inferiority complex ever since the sugar rush of centrally controlled money in the professional era.
The fans have voted with their feet accordingly simply because they do not believe the league has the priority. That passes to players who only want to do their best and be paid accordingly.

The R12 is entering a dangerous period which no rugby fan should want to see but a few issues with a top down structure are coming home to roost.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The amount of players linked to Toulon and Racing is rediculous. Lets hope they both go bust before they destroy club rugby.

before they lure the best, most financially incentivised palyers away from irish and welsh club rugby you mean.

gimme a rest with the melodrama.

the new world order of club rugby will not involve irish clubs dominating HC as they have in the last 5 years.

you can cry about it but that wont change the inevitable.

quinsforever that might be the case but I don't want to see French clubs dominating an European competition.

Ideally I would like to see the French reducing their salary cap and increasing the amount of French players in their playing squads.

The Pro12 should be looking to side with the English if they want to prevent all their players going to France.

People forget that there is a vast different between the English salary cap and the French one.

beshocked wrote:quinsforever that might be the case but I don't want to see French clubs dominating an European competition.

Ideally I would like to see the French reducing their salary cap and increasing the amount of French players in their playing squads.

The Pro12 should be looking to side with the English if they want to prevent all their players going to France.

People forget that there is a vast different between the English salary cap and the French one.

In that, there actually is one

beshocked wrote:quinsforever that might be the case but I don't want to see French clubs dominating an European competition.

Ideally I would like to see the French reducing their salary cap and increasing the amount of French players in their playing squads.

The Pro12 should be looking to side with the English if they want to prevent all their players going to France.

People forget that there is a vast different between the English salary cap and the French one.

the difference in salary cap is a red herring in my opinion.

if you can get agreement across the leagues on quotas or ratios of foreign to domestic players that will do the trick. sure the french will have the best foreign players from all over the world, but just far fewer than they do at the moment.

i think the whole debate is the wrong way around - i think Steffon Armitage should be the first name on the teamsheet for England, not be excluded by Lancaster as some kind of warning/leverage to keep players in england. let those that want to go go, but if they aren't getting gametime they should be worried about their places in the national team as the coach will have little evidence to compare players.

beshocked wrote:geoff participation numbers is a bit of a red herring in my opinion.

You talk about soccer being interesting to young kids yet this doesn't reflect in attendances.
Plus the Irish soccer side are weak when you compare relatively to the Irish rugby union side.

The competitiveness of sports in Ireland is nothing like that in England or Wales. I know you like to think it is but it really isn't.

Wales have Swansea and Cardiff football sides which are massive competitors of rugby union in Wales. Particularly as they compete with two of Wales' main clubs - Ospreys and Cardiff Blues.

England have numerous big and small clubs in football throughout the country. Rugby league is a big competitor in the North. The Super League is more popular than the Pro12! Division 1 football is on par with the Pro12 too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

In France, football is nowhere near as big as it is in England.

I agree - Welsh players should have to stay in Wales if they want to play for Wales.

With all due respect, travelling to Ireland to attend rugby matches is of course going to skew your perspective a bit. Particluarly since GAA dominates in the Summer. Not sure how participation figures can be considered a 'red herring' either, I grew up just a few neighbourhoods out from Donnybrook, the RDS and Landsdowne Road and didn't even become aware of rugby until I was about 11, a good 6 years after I took up football among several other sports. If I hadn't gone to a rugby dominated school when I was 12 I would never have played.

Participation figures go; Soccer and Gaelic football way ahead of Hurling and Rugby slightly behind that.

Attendance figures go; Gaelic football first, doubling the attendances at soccer matches and quadrupling those of rugby with hurling sitting in between Gaelic and soccer.

Rugby has made great strides in the last decade (thanks in part to the Dublin dominated media) and many more people take a passing interest in the 6 nations than before. Leinster pack out the RDS where 10 years ago they might only half fill Donnybrook. But it still doesn't compete with the other two. The soccer friendly against Latvia this friday under the new management is getting more coverage than the Aus game this week.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The amount of players linked to Toulon and Racing is rediculous. Lets hope they both go bust before they destroy club rugby.

Better still, score more points than them on the field like Cardiff did to the Toulon superdooperstars recently.
Saying that it's all about money whether it be mega salaries, incentives, perks, free board and lodge, 40% tax breaks (ahem).

Dave, teams can compete with them now but in a few years time will we still be able to? Toulon have already signed Gorgodze and are linked to numerous other players.

Good news for us is the likes of Toulon can only field 15 players...

I also think in rugby you can match them with young talents but i fear it's only going to get worse and worse.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Dave, teams can compete with them now but in a few years time will we still be able to? Toulon have already signed Gorgodze and are linked to numerous other players.

It'll still be 15 against 15 whatever on the day, rain or shine, hopefully unless you've heard something different. Dan Luger?
What are your thoughts on the 40% tax break for Irish rugby players by the way?

you're not going to get a sensible answer on the tax break. tax breaks are a cultural tradition in ireland.

i would really laugh though if the french gave irish players a 40% tax break on earnings if playing for a french club. that would really crack me up.