Joe Louis v the best of the rest. Who wins?

First topic message reminder :

v Ali

v Holmes

v Foreman

v Frazier

v Norton

v Tyson

v Holy

v Lewis

v Spinks

v RJJ

v Hopkins

Just to add Balance

Floyd v

SRL

SRR

Hearns

Duran

JCC

Trinidad

Benitez

Armstrong

B Leonard

Saddler

Angott

In terms of top-level fighters, Trinidad was about as one dimensional as it gets, Az! But sometimes being absolutely exceptional in one dimension can be more worthwhile than being merely solid or decent in three. Such was the case with Tito, really. His weaknesses were obvious, but he made up for it by being big at the weight (at least before he campaigned at 160, anyway), having no dog in him and, more than anything else, hitting like a freight train with that left hook.

He was outstanding in slug fests and shootouts (Campas, Lueshing, Mayorga etc), not so hot anywhere else. Oscar clearly had him beaten from a technical point of view but somehow found a way to give the fight up (at least officially), Vargas showed in the middle stages that he had the tools to outbox him and may well have done had he gone in to that fight with a wee bit more experience under his belt, and as for Hopkins and Wright, well they didn't just school him, they absolutely dissected him. The punch stat numbers after the Wright fight made for almost comical reading.

As for Hopkins, he's one of the most canny and intelligent fighters to lace them up. He's not flashy by any means, and never has been, but if you watch his career from his early days, though to his first world title, and then finally ending with him gatecrashing the pound for pound lists round about the turn of the century, you can see that he just kept growing and growing (and learning and learning) with almost every fight. Very similar to Winky in that respect, actually. Anyone saying he's lacking in the technical department is off the mark, I think. Take a look at the way he protects himself from counters when he throws and how effective his defence and inside fighting were before he hit 40, where admittedly he started using his ugly tactics a lot more.

The thing he's most been susceptible to over the years has been genuine, out and out speed, but it tells you a lot about him that, of all those speedsters he's met, he was only really handled with any degree of comfort by one of them - Jones in 1993 (maybe Dawson last year too at a push, but Chad was hardly dominant in that one). Even genuinely fast fighters like Calzaghe and Taylor have only just managed to edge him out, to the point where you can make a case for Hopkins in two of those three fights.

Nobody said Hopkins was lacking in the technical area but its overrated how good technically he was. And his excessive spoiling gets lumped under the great technical ability area when its not. Winky Wright didnt use spoiling to anywhere near Hopkins level. Even when he past it and overweight he could easily have beaten Hopkins with a fair ref who would deduct points. Hopkins didnt use technique to beat Wright he just fouled and spoiled constantly. Headbutts, elbows, holding. Like most boxers he struggles when up against skillful fighters which is expected but the way people go on about him is like he was in a league of his own. He wouldnt beat the likes of Ray Leonard, Hagler or Hearns because they would have been too skillful for him. Hes not on a par with those guys.

That then depends on what you mean by one dimensional. Was Ali one dimensional (I feel a pop song coming along). Floyd? Manny?

I don't lump his fouling and spoiling in the technical ability bracket, catchweight. I acknowledged that since he's started getting seriously, seriously long in the tooth, he's turned some fights in to absolutely dreadful spectacles with it. But even allowing for that, even watching him in 2013 you can still see his skill set in effect, albeit Cloud and Murat aren't the classiest fighters.

Not sure about your Trinidad-Ali comparison, Az. Even in his prime years, Trinidad had to rely on that one dimension I talked about (being able to over power his opponents and backing himself to put them down for a ten count before they did the same) to dig himself out of some holes. Ali wasn't having to do that, and in his first title reign he was putting on exemplary displays against all kinds of styles; big, ugly spoilers like Terrell, quick smaller boxers like Patterson, big hitters like Liston etc. On the other hand, there was always a set kind of fighters which Trinidad seemed to have some degree of trouble with.

Besides, Ali coming back after his exile having lost some of those gifts he had early on, and being so successful, shows how multi-dimensional he was.

Not a comparison between the two but just seeking clarification. Ali was a boxer not a fighter. Frazier was the opposite. One can argue that both were one dimensional.

All boxers box/fight to their strengths. Some are boxer/fighters but the majority are either/or. Tito's knock out of Simon Brown who was no small WW showed up his brutal power and snappy jab. I wouldn't call him one dimensional.

Trinidad was one dimensional in the sense you take away his left hook and you're half way to beating him. What single attribute do you take away from Ali and Frazier. Take away Fraziers left hook and he's still a swarmed with a high work rate.

I can't agree with that hh. I liked his jab and if memory serves me right it was a straight right that made Brown see stars.

Brown?

Trinidad being one dimensional -- and therefore susceptible to anyone with a boxing brain -- is a bit cliche. Az actually makes a good point there.

He fought Hopkins above his best weight and Wright (and Jones) past his best.

While Oscar looked dazzling for a couple rounds, he couldn't keep it up -- it's virtually impossible to box that way through twelve rounds without someone like Ariza or Conte slipping you milkshakes and especially with someone exerting the type of pressure Trinidad did.

Probably the top rated welterweight since Leonard and Hearns.

Either Brown or Blocker. I get confused with the two of them seeing as they were joined at the hip. Wasn't it a 3rd round ko with a right hook.

hazharrison wrote:

Strongback wrote:Louis' chin wasn't that unfortified when he only lost 1 fight out 61 before he retired.  Louis was susceptible to being bowled over because he planted his feet a lot of the time when throwing his own power punches.  Ali stayed light on his feet in his prime but his punches were often called pitter patter.

Tyson Fury has been knocked over a few time but like Louis, bar Schmelling and Marciano, he was never in any danger of being KO'd.  Fury doesn't have a weak chin he just doesn't know how to set up his bodies mechanics to resist the force of a punch and often gets caught square on.

Got to pull you on that one -- Fury was very nearly stopped against both Pajkic and Cunningham -- his knees dipped in both fights.

??? nearly stopped?

He got straight back to his feet, smothered and held a little until his head was clear (which is what you are taught to do) and was getting tuck in again in no time.