Wales Team vs Tonga

First topic message reminder :

We had a great game yesterday and we thoroughly deserved it.
Now on to next week vs the Tongan's and with our record with injuries, i'm not looking forward to it. Watched them vs Frances and they were very physical. A lot of the French ended up on their arse.
Tonga to have a threat in their backs and a good ball carrying pack. The dilemma we have it that we have Australia the week after and we want as many of out first team starters as we can. However we need to win this game next week against a descent Tongan team without risking our star players because i sense a few more injures will occur against a brutal side who show no mercy:

Here is my team for the game:
1. Paul James
2. Ken Owens
3. Samson Lee
4. Bradley Davies (C)
5. Ian Evans (if fit)
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Falateu

9. Rhodri Wiliiams
10. Rhys Priestland
11. Liam Williams
12. Ashley Beck
13. Owen Williams
14. Geogre North
15. James Hook

16. Emyr Phillips, 17. Gethin Jenkins, 18. Rhodri Jones, 19. Luke Charteris, 20. Ryan Jones, 21. Mike Phillips, 22. Dan Biggar, 23. Tom Prydie

The Tongan scrum is shocking and i have no worries what so ever. Paul and Samson would be our key to winning the game at scrum time, both deserve a shot.
If Ian is fit he should start and join with Bradley to have there own little battle to see who is ready for the match against Australia, Bradley can also bring that physicality to the pack as well which will be needed vs the big pacific islanders. For me Bradley has been amazing so far this Autumn and deserve a start vs Australia but if Ian can come back into form Bradley will have to fight for his spot.
Dan needs to be on the field o cut down these tree like figures and needs game time if he is set to start vs the Aussies
To me Gats is definitely going to start Dan and Sam for the Aussie game which is why Tipuric deserves another start int he form he is in.
We need Toby's edge and physicality in the pack; it's a risk but i wuld be willing to take it

Mike was exceptional on Saturday but we still need more depth at 9 because it is the are were we are weakest (depth wise) at the moment. Lloyd has been ok when he has come on but i want to see Rhodri have a shot

Priestland should start for another chance to shine, Biggar played really well on Saturday and made us play an expansive game; if Priestland is to start vs the Aussies he needs a corker.
Don't have much of a choice at Center and we can't risk Scott
George needs to start for the physicality that is set to be set upon us on Friday, again it's a risk but i would be willing to take it. However i wouldn't hesitate in staring Eli if he is fit.
James has stated he wants to play so much and this is the only chance i feel Gatland will give him to shine.

There's been bad things happen on every date in the calendar pretty much Maes! Choose any date and there will be death and destruction attached. Today is no different.

Griff wrote:There's been bad things happen on every date in the calendar pretty much Maes! Choose any date and there will be death and destruction attached. Today is no different.

Aye but the Kennedy shooting kinda stands out in my memory as something bigger than average news.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Maybe it's the date? 22nd of November has always been a bad day. JFK was shot fifty years ago today.

Bang! Bang!.........Boing!

That sounds like Jiffy commentary from a few years back...  

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:There's been bad things happen on every date in the calendar pretty much Maes! Choose any date and there will be death and destruction attached. Today is no different.

Aye but the Kennedy shooting kinda stands out in my memory as something bigger than average news.

David Kelly.
as for Wales v Tonga.....

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:There's been bad things happen on every date in the calendar pretty much Maes! Choose any date and there will be death and destruction attached. Today is no different.

Aye but the Kennedy shooting kinda stands out in my memory as something bigger than average news.

you remember the kennedy shooting?

watched the first half and thought wales were good for their lead, although tongan handling v poor apart from their try.

wife got me to move furniture around during the second half which by the comments here looks like a good intervention from her.

doesnt sound like you were ever in danger of losing, so just forget about it.

much bigger test next week and i am sure everyone knows, and thats why, after being up at half time, the second half was a bit unmagical

england were turgid against argentina in the second half but played great against NZ. have no doubt wales will be fully up for it for 80mins next weekend.

really looking forwards to it.

Wow, most frustrating game i have ever seen in my life; i couldn't wait until that whistle blew. 90% territory in the first half and something like 75 in the second. We need to capitalize more if we want to achieve higher goals. Wasn't impressed with a few calls from a rolling maul and i don't know how many times we had the chance.
Scrums were awful again, they just took forever. How Paul James didn't get penalised for not driving straight at nearly every scrum i don't know; if i was that tight head i would have been going mad.
I know they dind't have the ball that much but when they did our defense was superb. Luke was rightly MOM i know he dropped the ball on the try line and people are slatng him for it but they clearly didn't see how much work he put in around the park or in the line out; was brilliant and deserves to start next week.
Ian Evans was good as well but got a bit quite towards the second half, same with beck who had a good and bad game. Owen Williams looks like a good prospect cracking try, best part of the match.
Ken Owen and Ryan were also very good, both deserve some praise for their performances.
Overall, a sh!t game but we will be on a bit of a high and take it into next week.

George North's post match comments


"We had chances out there, we just weren't clinical enough in the right areas. We had a lot of turnovers which are basic skills for us and we left a lot of tries out there. It was one of those frustrating days at the office.

"It was great for Owen to get a try, we've been working hard on our support play and general running lines and he took it very well.

"Tonga came out hard, hit hard and from one to 15, we felt that today. Defensively, they were very strong.

"I think we're a bit frustrated. We went out there and tried to overachieve. I think we need to do our basics right, run hard and play our tempo, we just tried too hard. At the end of the day, it's not what we set out to do but a win is a win.

"Our defence held strong except for the first half and in the second half, we could have conceded an easy try but we stayed strong and worked together.

"I am available next week. We've had a little bit of a dip here today but come Monday we'll work really hard again, get all the boys back in and I think we've got a great chance of beating Australia here."

Very very disappointing .....

No disrespect to Tonga, but Wales should have been able to build on the first half and put this game to bed. We didn't and we should be very disappointed with that.

Get shot of that grey kit, it's sh!te and already has a bad performance record....

Ken, Tipuric, Charteris, and Ryan all had good or great games, either in effort of class, and I don't think there was anyone who played particularly poorly. Lydiate did a shift, and carried a bit more, something he absolutely has to work on. It was a sort of Barbarian effort: you can say that's due to lack of ability, which I don't doubt, relative to the first team, but perhaps it's more to do with cohesion and familiarity. In the backline, 9, 11, 12, and 13 are still relatively inexperienced at Test level or making their debuts, and indeed you could also say Hook is unfamiliar at 10 now. Ken and Rhodri are still learning at this standard, and have stood up well, whilst others are coming back from injury or deselection.

It's may seem pointless in retrospect- and perhaps a little insensitive- but I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest Wales could have conceivably scored 10 tries out there. 3 were all but chalked on but for TMO decisions, and that gets you to 5- halfway there. What was pleasing was the variation from around the rucks instead of simply lining up players to get smashed time and again; there was an awareness, either from players or coaches, that has been lacking in the past. The problem was one of leadership. Ryan did his best, but really he should have been adied by Charteris, Paul James to an extent, and Lydiate the Lion, in dictating to the rest of the boys what they needed to do in the next phase, play, and period. That's difficult when the leading players in a side are equally unlikely of playing in the first team as the youngsters, in some cases less so.

Was I the only one who thought turning down very kickable penalties was foolish? 'Win' the game by building an insurmountable lead, and actually show them a bit of respect, and perhaps they won't tackle quite so hard in their 22, making the tries easier to come by? Is it also surprising that the tries came from breaks from deep, where the opp. defensive line is unsettled in the scramble and, if they do recover as in the second try, it results in mismatches such as a hooker defending a centre on the wing? For the strangehold Wales had on the ball stats, and the backline we had, it would have been better to play at a higher tempo, and from deep (perhaps that's why Hook kept his penalty touch kicks on the safe side of conservative?) It may seem insignificant, but doing the same thing over and over is systematic of the weakness in Gatland's gameplan, and a trait which may well be repeated in a week's time by the first team, only we may be bemoaning a defeat instead of an underwhelming victory.


Some positives: Rhodri's first cap will hopefully be the first of a long and successful career. One little snipe and one "sack" at the back of a ruck was a mixed performance, but there's surely more to come. I don't understand the hatred for Ll Williams. For me he's unoffensive; he offers little but doesn't really detract much from the team, he isn't a particularly wasteful or destructive player. He needed this opportunity anyway. He looks quite well built for a 9, and that is evidently valued by the selection panel (how's his wrestling stats... ), but surely there is a 9 in Wales with a cleaner, quicker service if we want an unobtrusive 9? Thus far, though, he's a solid back-up; he has some experience and will be unlikely to be fazed by any Test team now having served his apprenticeship under Mike (how well he actually performs is another matter). I think the new boys' contribution generally this Autumn has been positive, although the most prominent loss is Jamie Roberts. He really is the difference between a winning Wales and a losing Wales at the highest level. He is integral to the gameplan we play, and I think if he were fit for next week I'd say Wales would be favourites against Australia. Without him, I don't think they can be.

As I didnt see the game, can anyone tell me how Mike Fraser went sending off all those bad Tongans for late head high shoulder charging tip tackles?

I personally thought he had a great game. Touch judge Craig Joubert made a silly call on a "late" tackle in the lead up to the Wales try, he dealt with it well by dismissing it after viewing it again. One "high" tackle given in the second half which was fine, but otherwise there was little for him to contend with. Thought he was very fair and consistent, reffed it really well from my perspective.

So how many Tongans did he send off?

None, why?

So all the prematch whinging by Welsh supporters on here about how filthy the Pacific Islanders are when it comes to tackling was either an exageration or they just dont know what theyre talking about.

Right. It's fair that a lot of posters talk crud and unfortunately a lot of them appear to be Welsh, but it's not like it's an assessment plucked out of thin air. It was a good tempered game, Tonga kept their discipline remarkably considering they barely saw the halfway line for a lot of the game. Are you actually going to take enjoyment from the absence of foul play not because it makes the game a better spectacle, but because you get a one up on a few people who post on the internet?

No Miaow my stance was/is that the Tongans and in fact all the Pacific Islanders are not as filthy as some people think. Generalisation and all that.

aucklandlaurie wrote:So all the prematch whinging by Welsh supporters on here about how filthy the Pacific Islanders are when it comes to tackling was either an exageration or they just dont know what theyre talking about.

Nah, The Welsh stood up to them and it was the Tongan's on the deck continually getting treatment:) Not one Welshman treated on the field. But well done Wales for letting the ref know how we felt. 

What's the point in trying to persuade anyone who considers Pacific Islanders "filthy" that they're wrong? The likelihood is the same posters are already looking up inflammatory slurs about Aussies and drinking, or reminding the other posters on here, Australian or otherwise, of the Welsh contingent in the Lions. The week prior to yesterday's game saw Fiji have four men sent from the pitch, and Tonga had a man red carded for fighting; the issue of discipline was topical, and they have developed a perception, fair or otherwise, of having a fair few players who like to look for the big hit from the shoulder, just as the French have a get out of jail card for any inconsistencies in performance- it's a national stereotype that's become ingrained in rugby cliche. Don't exaggerate/take the posts of a few tactless posters as symbolic of all if you actually want decent rugby debate.

A bit of a scrappy game certainly. But good space for the kids to shine. As a matter of fact I saw Tonga do the very same thing to the ABs in the opening game of the WC. NZ took off like a rocket with 3 or 4 tries in the first half then Tonga fought back in the 2nd and out scored them in the second. It was a busy night for the ref every time we crossed he was up to the TMO. Still don't know why George's effort was disallowed. All in all a great night as has been said Leigh could have easily doubled the score. They had more walking wounded than us I think we were unscathed. Hook was ok, and redeemed himself a bit sublime cross field to North. Not bad for an occasional 10. Glad that Gats has got over his aversion to him. A fully confident Hook at 10 could be awesome. He was once seen as the man to fill Stephen Jones boots. But I thought Priest injected some urgency into the game when he came on a fizzed a long sharp flat pass. Was welcomed into the bosom of the fatherland when a young one draped herself over my shoulder in the pub and breathed "a win is a win isn't it" in my ear. Amen to that.

quinsforever wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:There's been bad things happen on every date in the calendar pretty much Maes! Choose any date and there will be death and destruction attached. Today is no different.

Aye but the Kennedy shooting kinda stands out in my memory as something bigger than average news.

you remember the kennedy shooting?

I remember the Kennedy shooting too - was watching 'Mutiny on the Bounty' at the Plaza cinema in Cardiff when it happened. I watched some pretty dour rugby back then as well. Looking up the 1963 records, England won the 5 Nations - 4 matches - with a total of 29 points for and 19 against! Wales managed one win, 6-0 at home against Scotland. Last night's 17-7 win was a points spree by comparison!

aucklandlaurie wrote:So all the prematch whinging by Welsh supporters on here about how filthy the Pacific Islanders are when it comes to tackling was either an exageration or they just dont know what theyre talking about.

Or the third option which you've conveniently missed out: Tongan players didn't do any illegal tackles or start any fights to get themselves sent off in this particular match. Why miss out this vital option? Because, as always, you're looking to start a fight over nothing.

You're a poor mans GloriousEmpire.

No Griff that was the option that was conveniently forgotten by all those pre judging the pacific island rugby 48 hours ago.

Im not starting anything, Im finishing it.

Nice! A good old fashioned playground line that. Haven't heard it since school! Ha!

"I'm not starting, I'm finishing"!!!

Griff if the Tongans pre judged the Welsh like some of you guys judge Pacific Islanders then you would be the first whinge.

You can probably count on two hands the number of welsh posters who 'pre-judged' the Tongans on this site. Not representative of the 3 million population though. I certainly wasn't one of them. Our defence coach was one though and should have kept his views out of the media.

There's a certain irony to pre-judging Welsh posters as 'pre-judgers'.

Ok so a wins a win as they say and this time last AI we were 0 from 3 so thats something.

Also its not about pre judging at all but if we have any serious aspirations come the WC then we need to be putting these guys to the sword.

You seriously can't tell me that the likes of NZ, SA, Aus, Eng and wouldn't have stuck at least another 20-30 points on them.

I know we made wholesale changes and whilst I am not a fan of that I understand that he was forced to by injury in certain positions and by the need to see what the next generation is like.

All that said there was still 451 caps out on the field last night and some players (Hook, James Charteris) with things to prove.

Also the players who are available for selection next week and want to start such as Ry Jones, Rh Jones, Owens, Tipuric, Ll Williams, both centres should be doing more to make Gatland sit up and take note. Tipuric aside none of those mentioned challenged the likely starters next week.

For those that say Ll Williams should be ahead of Phillips for his speed of service etc, sorry I have said before he shouldn't be in squad and nothing he done last night has changed my mind.

What annoys me is that we've built no momentum for next week v Aus. It's knocked us back a bit, albeit with a win. Yes, I can understand calls to not risk players or rest them, but I would say that if we can't commit to 4 Autumn international games, if we need to rest players for some of them, then we shouldn't be taking on 4 in the first place (although I know it's for financial reasons mainly).

Agree with those comments Bedford.

Yes it was a win but & it is a big but it was a really bad game to watch & it lacked any urgency or cohesion even taking into account of the changes.
Will any youngsters watching that game be inspired?

Dreadful scrums, a disinterested & inept Tonga & an embarrassed MOM nomination.

Ending with a plus good to see youngsters start & Charteris playing.

Griff wrote:,I would say that if we can't commit to 4 Autumn international games, if we need to rest players for some of them, then we shouldn't be taking on 4 in the first place (although I know it's for financial reasons mainly).

Griff,

Its ONLY for financial reasons no other reason whatsoever.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:,I would say that if we can't commit to 4 Autumn international games, if we need to rest players for some of them, then we shouldn't be taking on 4 in the first place (although I know it's for financial reasons mainly).

Griff,

Its ONLY for financial reasons no other reason whatsoever.

Playing the third place team in the IRB rankings is always good for development. And a win will lift the players immeasurably, it is not just a financial benefit. It is an International against good opposition...

Then we should play them 3rd/last and only play one of Argentina or Tonga, not both. Others manage to do well with 3 internationals. If we had Aus this weekend, we would have built up nicely to it. Last night, IMO, has been an unnecessary stumbling block/distraction on the way to Aus. The coaching team had to change their focus to another group of players when they could have been focussing their efforts on the same core of players from the two weeks previous. That lacks continuity.

SA
Arg or Tonga
Aus

Nothing wrong with that sort of Autumn line up IMO. Our main team, plus one or two experiments, could have had a good game against arg or tonga and would be ready for Aus. I'm not sure what we will have learned last night at all that will prepare us for Aus.

Griff wrote:Then we should play them 3rd/last and only play one of Argentina or Tonga, not both. Others manage to do well with 3 internationals. If we had Aus this weekend, we would have built up nicely to it. Last night, IMO, has been an unnecessary stumbling block/distraction on the way to Aus. The coaching team had to change their focus to another group of players when they could have been focussing their efforts on the same core of players from the two weeks previous. That lacks continuity.

SA
Arg or Tonga
Aus

Nothing wrong with that sort of Autumn line up IMO. Our main team, plus one or two experiments, could have had a good game against arg or tonga and would be ready for Aus. I'm not sure what we will have learned last night at all that will prepare us for Aus.

Griff

We can't afford not to host four Autumn Internationals. We have no option. The WRU don't invent money, they have to earn it. If we weren't playing a top team it wouldn't generate enough cash for us. Also as it is our fourth game of the year, we are steadily improving, as the oppositions last they should be tiring.

We are no different to England, who usually play a fourth international, and are running a healthy business at the RFU.

Watched the game last night and was very impressed with Ryan Jones. Such a quality player.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:46K is really good?

I was kiddin on. Did no one else see the BBC Graphic that said "attendance 46"

Not 46,000

46

This result is an indication that Samoa and Tonga are the leading PI teams and Fiji is quite some way behind. These teams, including Fiji, all benefit from time together. These one-off games tend to be one-off squad assembling and so the French, Irish and Italian results are not surprising. Yet the longer these squads stay together, the more competitive they become.

Australia would do well to look at the likes of Samoa and Tonga. They traditionally had a physical game of power running and big hits but were found wanting in the set piece. For all the size of the Fijians, they are still found wanting at set piece but Tonga and Samoa knuckled down and found a way to fix up their set piece shortcomings. Along with that, they improved their defensive line.

When these teams are able to frustrate and slow down opposition ball, there are not the same gaps that you could exploit in years gone by. Having possession is not enough. You have to work very hard to unlock their defence, provided that they have enough time as a group together to get those combinations going.

It will be a frustrating game for Wales but a win that frustrates you is infinitely better than a good performance that sees a loss and a high scoring game. I can't think of better preparation for Australia than a hard fought win against Tonga. Wales got their emphatic win against Argentina and mentally I can't help but think they thought it would come easy in this game after the big defeat they got in France. But that just shows a performance can vary a great deal in just a week and similarly Wales can improve their performance and will need to against an Australian side who will have their players back looking to redeem themselves against an opponent that they respect a lot.

Gatland doesn't have to do much in terms of focusing on the Tonga match. He just needs to emphasise where Wales need to be and warn them their performance particularly in what they do with the ball on attack has to improve markedly.

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Griff wrote:,I would say that if we can't commit to 4 Autumn international games, if we need to rest players for some of them, then we shouldn't be taking on 4 in the first place (although I know it's for financial reasons mainly).

Griff,

Its ONLY for financial reasons no other reason whatsoever.

Playing the third place team in the IRB rankings is always good for development. And a win will lift the players immeasurably, it is not just a financial benefit. It is an International against good opposition...

Then at least play them in the IRB window so that all our players are available, if the robbing bar stewards then feel we have to have a 4th game play that outside the window if need be and with good deals on tickets they would still get a decent crowd.

The longer the game went on the more frustrated Jonathon Davies was becoming.
He kept saying some one needs to speed things up now, why are they kicking for the corner and not taking kicks at goal? How many kicks did they turn down, I honestly cannot remember.

Can some one explain how the hell Luke Charteris got man of the match? wtf was jiffy smoking?

I thought Ryan Jones had a lot better game.

Tipuric was head and shoulders above anyone on that field last night, he was our best scrumhalf by a country mile.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
No Miaow my stance was/is that the Tongans and in fact all the Pacific Islanders are not as filthy as some people think. Generalisation and all that.

It's not generalisation, it's a fact that they do it more often than other teams. See Wales vs Samoa last season, France vs Tonga and Italy vs Fiji last week. If they want help so they can develop their game they should play by the rules. It's sweet sticking up for your cousins and everything, but I think it's clearly you lot who have the problem here. As I said the other day you lot still think what happened to BOD in 05 was perfectly okay.

Having said all of that, it was good to see Tonga turn up with the intention of scrumming and playing some rugby.A worthy opponent.

majesticimperialman wrote:The longer the game went on the more frustrated Jonathon Davies was becoming.
He kept saying some one needs to speed things up now, why are they kicking for the corner and not taking kicks at goal? How many kicks did they turn down, I honestly cannot remember.

Can some one explain how the hell Luke Charteris got man of the match? wtf was jiffy smoking?

I thought Ryan Jones had a lot better game.

The game was so appalling no one deserved a MOM - in fact the commentators were obviously embarrassed by the fact that they had to do it.

Ryan Jones deserved it. Back from a long spell of injury and played his heart out.

Griff wrote:What annoys me is that we've built no momentum for next week v Aus. It's knocked us back a bit, albeit with a win. Yes, I can understand calls to not risk players or rest them, but I would say that if we can't commit to 4 Autumn international games, if we need to rest players for some of them, then we shouldn't be taking on 4 in the first place (although I know it's for financial reasons mainly).

Or just play it as the last game, giving it the status of the dead rubber that it often is?

Miaow

Charteris….when he wasn't giving away pens at the breakdown or impeding tacklers he actually dropped the ball on the try line

I am sure Jiffy's award was pretty tongue in cheek

I rate Charteris but he is well known for either playing very well or having a shocker

This was a shocker

I thought Charteris did well, though not well enough to get the MOTM accolade. Standout performers for me were Owens, Rhodri Jones, Charteris, R.Jones, Tipuric, O.Williams, North and Halfpenny. Thankfully most of those will be involved against Australia and will be boosted by the return of Jenkins, Hibbard, Warburton, Faletau, Phillips, Biggar, S.Williams. Not looking that bad.