Ireland v New Zealand

First topic message reminder :

Right what's done is done regarding Aus. Time to move on and look forward to the ABs. This could be one to watch from behind the couch.

I don't expect any major changes in the team. Murray for Redden being the only obvious change, possibly at tighthead, possibly in the second row. Sexton is doubtful, maybe Earls is available.

My only expectation for this game is for an improved performance as the required level of aggressiveness was just non existent last Saturday. Otherwise we are looking at some hammering.

Without stating the obvious...I would like to see our players try to copy the All Blacks in certain aspects of the game. Namely
1. Passing the ball to another Irish player who is moving forwards and preferably in space
2. When running with the ball try to avoid the opposition players as much as possible instead of seeking out contact.
that is all.

Suas an bothair agus ar aghaidh an tarbh.

Updated with Teams
All Blacks
15 Dagg,14 jane, 13 B Smith, 12 Nonu, 11 Savea, 10 Cruden, 9 A Smith
8 Read, 7 McCaw, 6 Luatua, 5 Whitelock, , 4 Romano, 3 Faumoina, 2 Hore , 1 Crockett

Ireland
R Kearney; T Bowe, B O’Driscoll, G D’Arcy, D Kearney; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Best, M Ross, D Toner, P O’Connell, P O’Mahony, S O’Brien, J Heaslip.
Replacements: S Cronin, J McGrath, D Fitzpatrick, M McCarthy, K McLaughlin, I Boss, I Madigan, L Fitzgerald.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Just in from the game. have not read the thread.

Have all the people who said Darce was "finished" appologised yet?

I was just thinking how many points we'd have won by if Marshall would have started ....  

Fair play D'arcy put in a performance to match the calibre of his beard, great effort by him indeed.

D'Arcy was pretty manic, but to be honest I did kind of have the feeling even during the game this was their last chance to really achieve something big together. It had the feel of a last hurrah for D'Arcy/BOD which makes it doubly gutting that we didn't finish it off. I think we'll certainly see some rotation and new faces in the centres over the Six Nations.

Schmidt made the right call for this game, but would you bet against Marshall starting the next test? It's going to be 50/50.

I still feel like we don't want to have to blood two new centres together (Schmidt was really the same this series in not wanting to blood a new 10 and 12 together) and since this is BODs last year... if Sexton gets injured the pendulum will swing towards D'Arcy but we have to replace himself and BOD over the next year or two so who knows if we'll see him ever play as well again in a test jersey.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Just in from the game. have not read the thread.

Have all the people who said Darce was "finished" appologised yet?

In fairness, considering the massive leap in performance from 1-15 from any of the previous games, i dont think you can singleout D'arcy. You may as well as 'has everyone who wrote off the entire team apologised yet?'.

But yes, D'Arcy was inspired today. Most of the players were!

Whatever impacted their mentality today might also have impacted Jackson/Marshall/Redden/McFadden had they been playing instead.

In terms of bringing on options in the midfield I think Schmidt has done very well in giving Paddy Jackson 80 minutes, Luke Marshall 80 minutes and Ian Madigan 50 minutes.

I'm sure they'll be in the mix come the Springtime.

clivemcl wrote:Anyone else tempted to read further into BODs look of anguish when he went off.  Yes, perhaps he just knew it was their best chance ever to beat the all blacks and just wanted to continue on. But i couldnt help but wonder if he was reconsidering calling it a day and retiring before the six nations. Many fans and midia were suggesting it might be best.

I think there is a chance that could happen.  When you declare that you are in your final year the relief must hit your body like a tidal wave.  In a sense I think that's why he was always so strong in evading the issue in the past.  He was determined to kick away people who asked had he a date in mind.  But now that he has announced it, I think his body is already going into retirement in advance of his spirit.

There is little else in the game that he needs to put his body through another few months for.  People say he's of a certain age and other players have played on and do so now.  But the point is that it seems to be the time his body wants to stop now.  I think he should listen to it.  He owes us nothing.

But the more poetic we like to be about his career, the more we realise how pragmatic he is about it.  He'll probably see more than enough temptation there to try to get Leinster close enough to a Euro final and possibly still help a little in the 6N.

I've given up tryng to guess this man.  Notch said we didn't lose much when Fitz came on...well, how can we know? But I know what I think.  I think we might very well have held on to the win with him there helping out in that last fire defensive effort.

BOD will play the 6N -he is desperate for another slam - I have zero doubt he'll play if fit. This was just one of the two major goals which kept him playing I believe.

Connor Murray really stood out today. He is a very talented player.

It is hard to single out one man in such a collectively impressive performance, but Murray changed Ireland's cards compared to last week.

Yeah it was a great team performance and Murray was up there - Sean O'Brien was my motm, his work rate was unbelievable. Dave Kearney impressed me in a subtle way, he is very solid - a more a natural wing than McFadden or Earls and a better defender than Zebo.

O'Connell's legs went at the end but he had a great game.

Notch wrote:In terms of bringing on options in the midfield I think Schmidt has done very well in giving Paddy Jackson 80 minutes, Luke Marshall 80 minutes and Ian Madigan 50 minutes.

I'm sure they'll be in the mix come the Springtime.

this is what you get from our Josef.

It looks like he is being conservative, but the above stats manage to get in there.

rodders wrote:Yeah it was a great team performance and Murray was up there - Sean O'Brien was my motm, his work rate was unbelievable. Dave Kearney impressed me in a subtle way, he is very solid - a more a natural wing than McFadden or Earls and a better defender than Zebo.

O'Connell's legs went at the end but he had a great game.

Not just his work rate but Sean O'Brien's eye for attack, the gap, beating the man and not just with raw power was sublime.

Thought Dave K looked slightly out of his depth. But hey.... It was the feken ABs. what do you want.

Was Sob the "actual mom". Surely he was? If not who was?. Haven't seen it on the telly yet.

maestegmafia wrote:

rodders wrote:Yeah it was a great team performance and Murray was up there - Sean O'Brien was my motm, his work rate was unbelievable. Dave Kearney impressed me in a subtle way, he is very solid - a more a natural wing than McFadden or Earls and a better defender than Zebo.

O'Connell's legs went at the end but he had a great game.

Not just his work rate but Sean O'Brien's eye for attack, the gap, beating the man and not just with raw power was sublime.

Yeah absolutely, it is the fact that he is capable of such eye catching explosive bursts and impact but also able to get through such huge amounts of work in defence and at the ruck that impresses me so much - most players excel at one of the other. He's so good he's in danger of being taken for granted imo. He was monstrous today.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Was Sob the "actual mom". Surely he was? If not who was?. Haven't seen it on the telly yet.

According to ESPN he was.

mystiroakey wrote:So . Everyone puts them on a pedalstool and it's the wrong attitude.

The amount of mistakes nz have made this tour Has been very apparent. Nz fans well not be happy. But we all let them off the hook.

Well I was extremely happy. For one in looking at that last try again the ball went through almost every set of hands twice it felt like. The skill levels required across the full side to put together that play after the 80 minutes was up was incredible. The entire side came together, as one, under the utmost pressure to produce that try. Under those circumstances, that pressure, they all managed to do that. They may make mistakes mysti, but they didnt then, when we all needed it most. One of the best tries considering the circs.

Given you have no criteria for what a great side is anyway...it certainly isnt either winning every trophy on offer, having a 100% winning calendar year, nor the mental and fortitude when the game has all but been lost...we'll just put it down to denial.After all, theres nothing left.  

Taylorman wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:So . Everyone puts them on a pedalstool and it's the wrong attitude.

The amount of mistakes nz have made this tour Has been very apparent. Nz fans well not be happy. But we all let them off the hook.

Well I was extremely happy. For one in looking at that last try again the ball went through almost every set of hands twice it felt like. The skill levels required across the full side to put together that play after the 80 minutes was up was incredible. The entire side came together, as one, under the utmost pressure to produce that try. Under those circumstances, that pressure, they all managed to do that. They may make mistakes mysti, but they didnt then, when we all needed it most. One of the best tries considering the circs.

Given you have no criteria for what a great side is anyway...it certainly isnt either winning every trophy on offer, having a 100% winning calendar year, nor the mental and fortitude when the game has all but been lost...we'll just put it down to denial.After all, theres nothing left.  

when have i said you are not a great side?(all i ever argued was you are not the greatest sporting team of all time!!!), this time all i argued that you were not that good(in regards to someone calling you unbeatable due to never making mistakes)

you are just to sensitive lad

Any Critic even the most minor , people take offence and try and sensationalise it!!!

Learn some perspective

BTW

WELL DONE NZ.

Great acheivment  

Just back from the game (via a long drive and a pub or two)...so apologies for the grammar...

1. we threw away a 19 point lead.
2. we were leading by 19 points...

19 points..............

And we lost....

Did I mention we were leading by 19 points...

Very exciting game. Ireland played very well and didn't let NZ into it. NZ stood off the ruck too much which allowed Ireland lots of quick ball and momentum.
When he was lining up the penalty I was just about swearing at the screen and had given up(young daughter watching it with me so I controlled myself).

You can't blame Sexton it takes a team to win or lose a game.

In terms of fitness, a coach (can't remember who it was) earlier this year talked about his young team burning themselves out during the game. Basically he said that players needed to learn to play within themselves and manage themselves through the 80 mins.
So it might not be that the ABs are any fitter but that they are good enough to be able to take a breather once in a while so they are full of running at the end. It probably helps that we have a good bench as well so that we can bring on players like Coles, Messam, Barrett etc without losing much.

Yes me19 you lost the 19 point lead and you posted at 19 mins past the hour

Just to note I was so fully convinced we would win that I put €20 on us to win by 10 points.....looks like I will have to tell the kids Christmas is cancelled.

One comment about the last couple of minutes...When teams are playing the keep ball game it is clear refs will look to turn the ball over and even though Nigel had not given one penalty for going off your feet he gave one then for a nothing ruck situation...the ball was on the other side so he was looking for an excuse to hand it over. Not blaming ref (mind he was also the ref who gave the penalty against Ireland in Christchurch last year at 19 all when it looked to everyone that it should have been a penalty to Ireland).

Anyhow...it doesn't matter....

19 all dude

not a good number for you is it

You put your kids Christmas money on a bet! - bad dad!

mystiroakey wrote:19 all dude

not a good number for you is it

Now that you mention it...I am going tohave nightmares tonight and a major hangover..

Hard luck Ireland. Really wanted to see the boys in green break their duck against the darkness. Well played both sides.

I hope you havent drunk 19 pints mate

Ireland were very goodin the first half. In the second half they started to make too many mistakes and started to play more negatively. There were some handling errors in the middle of the second half that killed any momentum. Injuries started to tell then near the end when they didn't have too many bench impact players.


Sexton's kick would have been the winner. Well what can you say about that? A chance to beat NZ with a kick from that position is all anyone could have wished for.


At least the performance reminded everyone that we do still have some quality players. It also showed how badly they underperformed against Australia last week. Consistency might be Schmidt's biggest challenge.

Just to note while it was a good performance we still lost. The players only did what they are supposed to do on a rugby pitch nothing more....only criticism of the coach is that he should have changed Ross and Healy earlier in the second half and possibly other changes before then. Some of the changes were reactive....

Thank god for 606. Just read the game on the thread. Woke up this morning and couldn't force myself out of bed. Woke up and checked the score at 15 minutes (crap) and half time (sh*t) and decided I'd go back to sleep. Sounds like I missed a game of epic proportions. Well done to everyone for the commentary. Really admire BOD and POC. If we were going to lose it would have been fitting they were in the side. Irish fans must be gutted. Feel like we dodged a bullet.

The losing margin may have been just two points, but that masked the gulf in class between Ireland and NZ. Ireland HAD to play at 100%, not make mistakes, have superior discipline, a sympathetic ref and the rub of the green to stay competitive. NZ had changed half their team, were at the end of a punishing season and had one eye on the plane home. It's obvious when the ABs don't rate their opposition as they wheel out the relatively friendly Ka Mate to entertain the crowd. Even a cursory look at the state of Ireland Test rugby and they could be forgiven for expecting a routine 20 point win to close out their perfect season.

No doubt Ireland surprised NZ in the first quarter, but after the break the ABs won the second half 17 - 0. Ireland's lack of rugby ability had to be compensated for with passionate endeavour and putting bodies on the line. Best breaking his arm was a byproduct of that intensity, but realistically Ireland can't replicate that level of commitment in every game as they simply couldn't afford the attrition rate. Passion is inspiring and plucks heartstrings in all sports fans, but in the end if both teams put in the same effort, it is the one with the most ability that wins. Ireland caught New Zealand cold to the tune of 19 points but when the ABs realised they were in a game they won the rest of the match 24-3.

The three AI games have shown Schmidt the enormity of the task facing him, but at least there have been a few silver linings in the dark clouds.

blackcanelion wrote:Thank god for 606. Just read the game on the thread. Woke up this morning and couldn't force myself out of bed. Woke up and checked the score at 15 minutes (crap) and half time (sh*t) and decided I'd go back to sleep. Sounds like  I missed a game of epic proportions. Well done to everyone for the commentary. Really admire BOD and POC. If we were going to lose it would have been fitting they were in the side. Irish fans must be gutted. Feel like we dodged a bullet.

We dodged more than a bullet. It was over 80 mins and we were 5 down having just tapped a penalty 60 out. About 15-20 phases later were scored in the corner and aftef surviving a firward pass review a rare rekick of the conversion only then saw cruden get it the second time.

Amazing. Like last Ireland came out firing to score 3.

Nothing can be taken from a loss,besides the sheer fact that you obviously are not good enough.

This AB team is beatable yes, but it will take a pretty special team and a pretty special performance to beat them

Biltong wrote:This AB team is beatable yes, but it will take a pretty special team and a pretty special performance to beat them

Not really, Ireland built a fantastic lead and should of kept that lead...Instead what Happend, Ireland gave away tooooooooooo Many penalties and the Abs came crawling back slowly. Catching up with every kick at goal.

The Moral of this is once you are in the lead, ( keep it) do not give away penalties.

Just back from work, really unlucky there Ireland, saw the last 15 minutes of the replay at the prison Must be gutted. Them last second turn overs are terrible, Wales have had it against Aussie so many times I can feel your pain.

Well done AB's.

I've think we've seen in the matches against England and Ireland the AB pack struggles against the intensity and physicallity the NH sides can produce.

They are very beatable but they have an amazing backline that can score at will. This tour has proved that the WC will be wide open imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_tY8uaEAX8

The Ab's have allowed a video in their changing room following each game. This is the one from yesterday. Pretty open and honest.

Just want to say, great hustle from Reid on Rob Kearneys try. He was never gonna catch him but that wasn't he point. He ran the 10m channel from the side line and kept rob from going under the posts. It could have been a nothing move by him but sexton hits the post because the grounding is kept wide. Well played.

Too early to talk about Ireland. They gave a performance here and also against Samoa but were dire against Oz. I could see us anything from 1st to 5th in the 6N with that spread of performance.

blackcanelion wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_tY8uaEAX8

The Ab's have allowed a video in their changing room following each game. This is the one from yesterday. Pretty open and honest.

Thanks for posting that link. Very honest analysis.

The Great Aukster wrote:The losing margin may have been just two points, but that masked the gulf in class between Ireland and NZ. Ireland HAD to play at 100%, not make mistakes, have superior discipline, a sympathetic ref and the rub of the green to stay competitive. NZ had changed half their team, were at the end of a punishing season and had one eye on the plane home. It's obvious when the ABs don't rate their opposition as they wheel out the relatively friendly Ka Mate to entertain the crowd. Even a cursory look at the state of Ireland Test rugby and they could be forgiven for expecting a routine 20 point win to close out their perfect season.

No doubt Ireland surprised NZ in the first quarter, but after the break the ABs won the second half 17 - 0. Ireland's lack of rugby ability had to be compensated for with passionate endeavour and putting bodies on the line. Best breaking his arm was a byproduct of that intensity, but realistically Ireland can't replicate that level of commitment in every game as they simply couldn't afford the attrition rate. Passion is inspiring and plucks heartstrings in all sports fans, but in the end if both teams put in the same effort, it is the one with the most ability that wins. Ireland caught New Zealand cold to the tune of 19 points but when the ABs realised they were in a game they won the rest of the match 24-3.

The three AI games have shown Schmidt the enormity of the task facing him, but at least there have been a few silver linings in the dark clouds.

I think that is a pretty unfair assessment if I may be honest. Overall, there is a gulf in class but yesterday Ireland pushed the AB's more than I have seen for many years. In the first half, the Irish outplayed the AB's, the AB's weren't bad just simply outplayed. The second half, to me, was down to the AB's superior match fitness at playing high intensity games.

The last try was something to behold, such composure and skill from a team that had played 80mins of bruising rugby was simply breath-taking (heart-breaking at the same time) and was a worthy winning try.

Give credit to both teams for putting on one hell of an entertaining match.

Mean, thanks BCL, that was a great insight.

blackcanelion wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_tY8uaEAX8

The Ab's have allowed a video in their changing room following each game. This is the one from yesterday. Pretty open and honest.

This is why I love rugby - Look at 4:05mins. Rory Best (with busted arm) having a beer and a chinwag with Andrew Hore.

They're listening to the Venga Boys...

Mickado wrote:They're listening to the Venga Boys...

They play for the Wallabies.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Mickado wrote:They're listening to the Venga Boys...

They play for the Wallabies.

There's no excuse. And UB40... ugh, that somehow makes it all even harder to take...

Firstly hands up I got it wrong I expected a slaughter.

Some players played at level I thought they never could and some played at a level I thought they were no longer capable.

Really really proud of them

Only makes the heart break of losing like that so hard to take

Gutted

[quote="thebandwagonsociety"]Just want to say, great hustle from Reid on Rob Kearneys try. He was never gonna catch him but that wasn't he point. He ran the 10m channel from the side line and kept rob from going under the posts. It could have been a nothing move by him but sexton hits the post because the grounding is kept wide. Well played.

Too early to talk about Ireland. They gave a performance here and also against Samoa but were dire against Oz. I could see us anything from 1st to 5th in the 6N with that spread of performance. [/quot

Great comment! The kick by Sexton for the conversion was just as significant as the penalty in the context of the game. As someone who kicked the goals, I always feel when the kicker has the deciding kick and fails. Well if I'm perfectly honest not in 2011 when two French kicks didn't go over.

I have a question - when kickers, having got themselves in the right place, and standing perfectly stil - looking at the posts, looking at the ball, and at the posts again - going through their ritual - why do so many of them shuffle their feet just before they begin.

I often wonder if its a deliberate attempt to try and encourage an early charge. In fairness most players would see feet moving and think thats the kicker stepping forward.

I suppose though its like feinting a penalty kick in football.



Also, the penalty with 30 seconds to go. No doubt Ireland went off their feet, but I also thought the all blacks tackler didn't (couldnt) get away quick enough. Richie McCaw also had hands in the ruck. owens told him to stop, but it could potentially have slowed down our ability to recycle.

Anyways... I think thats enough sour grapes for this morning!

Biltong wrote:This AB team is beatable yes, but it will take a pretty special team and a pretty special performance to beat them

Ireland 22 - 24 New Zealand
England 22-30 New Zealand
France 19 - 26 New Zealand

Hmmm the best team out there for sure. But not by too much.