New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

TJ wrote:What the PRL said.  They were saying how much the RCC was worth and how much each union would get from it.  That implies they had "sold" all the games.

They haven't specifically said how much it will be worth, just that there will be more money than the ERC have negotiated because of what they've managed to negotiate and what the French are expecting to get.  They won't know for certain what it is worth until the French have sold their rights.  The LNR ccertainly wouldn't be on board with the PLR if they had sold rights to their games, and there wouldn't be the money they are alluding to if they had.

bedfordwelsh wrote:So the top14 French sides are sticking with the HC next year, looks like the ball is in the caught of the Regions from a Welsh pov now then.

Maybe we will have 2 tournamnets running, a cross border competition between the Englsish and Welsh sides then the HC with the others currently in it.

I just don't believe that can happen. Anyway, what if the PRL have a change of mind, and enter HEC?

mystiroakey wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Justice is served! The PRL showed no interest whatsoever in consulting the other parties when signing new TV deals and generally taking it upon themselves to dictate what happens next. Well, what goes around comes around, they and the RFU have been blanked and now left out to dry. Well done lads, now ta ta  

and yet everything seems to be resting on having to get the PRL back in no longer than 1 year.

Yeah the prl are really blanked arnt they /headsgone

They are. They were not invited to most recent talks and the competition has sorted itself for the short-term without their input. About time they learned that the sport doesn't revolve around England anymore.

Notch, very well-worded and agree 100%

The HC is saved    

Vive la France.

I hereby declare that I forgive Thierry Henry.

But do you know what. I think the English will be back in a year, and the Franglo clubs will have most of what they demanded.

So who won if that happens?

If they have worked it out so well why don't they sort out a long term deal for ERC..

Seriously what was so hard to organize short term. Prl quit the cup. The rest seemingly can only continue on for a year.

bedfordwelsh wrote:So the top14 French sides are sticking with the HC next year, looks like the ball is in the caught of the Regions from a Welsh pov now then.

Maybe we will have 2 tournamnets running, a cross border competition between the Englsish and Welsh sides then the HC with the others currently in it.

The regions rep committee, or whatever it's called, is still undecided??? Is this true, or a wind up? They're still in the 'we'd quite like to be in your new Champions League, if there is one, please sir...' frame of mind???

They're going to end up in neither at this rate. All kitted up and nowhere to play.

Knowsit17 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Justice is served! The PRL showed no interest whatsoever in consulting the other parties when signing new TV deals and generally taking it upon themselves to dictate what happens next. Well, what goes around comes around, they and the RFU have been blanked and now left out to dry. Well done lads, now ta ta  

and yet everything seems to be resting on having to get the PRL back in no longer than 1 year.

Yeah the prl are really blanked arnt they /headsgone

They are. They were not invited to most recent talks and the competition has sorted itself for the short-term without their input. About time they learned that the sport doesn't revolve around England anymore.

Notch, very well-worded and agree 100%

Competition sorted out for a year by the looks of it with no entry from England. We do not yet know about Welsh regions but I suspect they will be in it but reluctantly. The French also only joined because they were forced to. So that is eight willing participants, eighteen very unhappy participants and twelve probably not joining at all. It does not look like a competition with a long term future to me.

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So the top14 French sides are sticking with the HC next year, looks like the ball is in the caught of the Regions from a Welsh pov now then.

Maybe we will have 2 tournamnets running, a cross border competition between the Englsish and Welsh sides then the HC with the others currently in it.

I just don't believe that can happen. Anyway, what if the PRL have a change of mind, and enter HEC?

What would happen to the English clubs though if:

1 The PRL back track, isn't the deal already signed with BT

or

2 If they stuck to guns then they wouldn't have another cross border comp of any sorts if the Regions stuck with the WRU and the HC.

No way on earth the welsh teams are going to join anything with the PRL teams now

the french will be perfectly happy as they have got what they wanted. they did not want a breakaway - they wanted changes to the HC
The welsh will be fine as well. It was only ever a bargaining position from them. the HC is fine, compromise comp this year then the english will come back in next year after McCaffery has been shot

The IRB said a while back that a new comp would only go ahead with the unions' consent. Well it would now seem all the unions bar the RFU are in the same court along with the vast majority of clubs. I don't see how PRL by themselves could possibly negate this fact as it's now only them and the pathetic RRW.

The suggestion of setting up a trans-continental competition with SA clubs just goes to show PRL's true intentions. They were never particularly interested in a "pan-European" tournament after all, only the best possible deal they could secure. But then is that really news?

Well I guess it wouldn't be first time it took part without the English.

No way is a cup with SA ever going to happen. SA will not ruin the Currie cup, the IRB will not let the super 15 be destroyed. Its simply not going to happen. ~Anyone who thinks it is is off their heads.

I

So the English do all the leg work , miss out on the cup and the French get everything they want and become the saviours of the cup.

What a load of nonsense.

I kind of hope the prl don't get back involved in this otherwise they have just been a pawn for the French.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:So the top14 French sides are sticking with the HC next year, looks like the ball is in the caught of the Regions from a Welsh pov now then.

Maybe we will have 2 tournamnets running, a cross border competition between the Englsish and Welsh sides then the HC with the others currently in it.

I just don't believe that can happen. Anyway, what if the PRL have a change of mind, and enter HEC?

What would happen to the English clubs though if:

1 The PRL back track, isn't the deal already signed with BT

or

2 If they stuck to guns then they wouldn't have another cross border comp of any sorts if the Regions stuck with the WRU and the HC.

We don't know the terms of that BT contract, but if PRL have signed a contract without an effective exit strategy then they are fools. I would think that some in LNR are close to those at the head of PRL, and LNR seems to be suggesting that it is possible for PRL to participate in HEC next year. Even if PRL are bound to such a contract then it might still be possible that BT release them from it. If not, then PRL are without European competition for the remainder of that contract.

I think PRL can survive without HEC next year, but the longer they remain outside of European competition the more damaging it is for them.

TJ wrote:No way is a cup with SA ever going to happen.  SA will not ruin the Currie cup, the IRB will not let the super 15 be destroyed.  Its simply not going to happen.  ~Anyone who thinks it is is off their heads.

I

But, maybe the RRW will throw their weight behind the concept too?

RRW can do feck all without the WRU's consent though, that was made clear from the beginning. They might try to sound independent but end of the day they must fall in line with their union's wishes as the IRB rightly adjudged. So for all intents and purposes it looks like it's just the PRL on their lonesome.

mystiroakey wrote:So the English do all the leg work , miss out on the cup and the French get everything they want and become the saviours of the cup.

What a load of nonsense.

I kind of hope the prl don't get back involved in this otherwise they have just been a pawn for the French.

It's outrageous. It's like those darned cheese-eaters don't appreciate what great business guys there are at the PRL. They're French Fools for not wanting to get into bed with some great business guys. One of the great business guys even used to play for a French club. Briefly. In the seconds.

mystiroakey wrote:So the English do all the leg work , miss out on the cup and the French get everything they want and become the saviours of the cup.

What a load of nonsense.

I kind of hope the prl don't get back involved in this otherwise they have just been a pawn for the French.

Its really not like that. the french had their own agenda - the PRL tried to make out they were shoulder to shoulder with the french but we know this was never so. the PRL overplayed teir hand, the french didn't. the French get what they want. England get nowt

The French will only get what they want if he English come back in, and then the Prl also get what they want. 1 year is nothing.

However the truth is the prl may not come back to the ERC. Then no one gets what they want.

But the point I was making was that the French have got what they wanted due to the prl's hard lines . Not there own work on the matter

mystiroakey wrote:The French will only get what they want if he English come back in, and then the Prl also get what they want. 1 year is nothing.

However the truth is the prl may not come back to the ERC. Then no one gets what they want.

But the point I was making was that the French have got what they wanted due to the prl's hard lines . Not there own work on the matter

What makes you think what the French get is dependent on PRL committing to HEC?

There is no way the teams will make as much money or have as varied experience without the English in the comp . So they might as well have been in th ERC as it stands with a lesser percentage of teams and financial pot.(as it is at the moment)

mystiroakey wrote:There is no way the teams will make as much money or have as varied experience without the English in the comp . So they might as well have been in th ERC as it stands with a lesser percentage of teams and financial pot.(as it is at the moment)

But then if PRL are out the LNR may get 50% of the HEC pot. The LNR have just about all they sought in negotiations, and are fairly well off with their TV deal anyway. That's not to say the absence of the AP teams doesn't hurt the HEC. It does. I think they will come back, but if not then I believe the HEC will evolve, and survive.

PRL's absence will free up extra revenue for the other organisations no?

Knowsit17 wrote:PRL's absence will free up extra revenue for the other organisations no?

Almost certainly not. In the original 5 union statement it was said that Sky are on board and although the value of the competition will be less the English share will mean no-one should lose out.

Knowsit17 wrote:PRL's absence will free up extra revenue for the other organisations no?

is that a joke?

Goze interview on RugbyRama:

Is that French clubs will play the next year in Europe, managed by the ERC competition cut?

Paul GOZE : They may have to play in ERC competitions , provided that the agreements are permanently curled and that competition can take place with the English clubs.

Do you not feel like walking back?

P. G. : No, we do not return back. We go back because we are smart. I do not see why from the time we all got , it would go something that causes significant differences . You have to be pragmatic . I used peremptory phrases, but it is not because I say I really thought (smile).

Rugby Champions Cup was therefore not just a simple means of pressure ?

PG: The RCC was a way to get the progress that we wanted.

What will be the position of the French clubs if English clubs do not compete for the European Cup next year ?

PG: If the English can not participate in European competition , a new meeting will be organized . And then we would ask the question of the participation of French clubs. I can not tell you today how the English have a legal right to get out of this contract with British Telecom.

Can you enlighten us on the upcoming deadlines ?

PG: This year (note: 2014/2015 ) transition will allow the creation of the new structure. During the period that separates us from 1 July 2014 , we will find solutions that everyone join the competition next year. Until now we were on a commercial structure and then we would move to another structure which is rather association federations type, like what happens in football. It is not possible to do so in six months.

The structure will not be called ERC

Meanwhile, the European Cup will be organized by the ERC ?

P. G. : The structure will not be called ERC . Starting next season , it will change its name. But the basic structure will be that. The temporary structure will be built to our liking. The advantage of the temporary structure that we want to establish is that it is already in place. This is just a status change , this is not a site to find a seat , staff ... The second structure , which we are calling for , out of the ordinary rugby . It will change attitudes so very important. The most difficult is that everyone stands behind this idea of ​​association federations. We must therefore put it as quickly as possible up the commission working on the structure for the 2015-2016 season.

With increased power leagues ?

PG: The commercial part , ie marketing , TV, will be managed by the participants , so the leagues . But the federations will board with us. And if it does not move you can conclude that there will be no competition.

But have you the assurance that the FFR will agree ?

PG: On governance for me it is acquired, I assume that people who are in front of me in good faith . If by next structure in the transition year, the new governance will be implemented and if it is implemented also in the final structure , Pierre Camou has nothing to fear. It has to fear that if after the agreement that has passed, it goes back . I assume that the Federation tells us what she does and does what it says , there is no ambiguity . There is only one problem is that the contract signed by English clubs . We reserve the right not to do (note: the European Cup ) if the English do not come.

Well there you go then.

The French are very strong on wanting if not needing the English clubs back in the comp based on what you posted

Well we knew McCafferty was on the ropes long before today.  Today however, Pierre Camou has caught McCafferty with a massive right hook and sent him crashing down to the canvas.  Its a knock out blow for the PRL.  

Good night Vienna.

mystiroakey wrote:Well there you go then.

The French are very strong on wanting if not needing the English clubs back in the comp based on what you posted

Strong on wanting, all of us want PRL there, but not strong on needing. Not in the sense that they will not participate in HEC without the PRL. Unlike the comments of Goze quoted some time ago, and quoted at the top of the article.
To me it looks like Goze is simply side-stepping any question of LNR responsibility of PRL isolation.

Not sure what you are reading but to me is pretty clear. The whole point of this is to have a transitional period to sort out a new comp which has to include the English teams.

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Well there you go then.

The French are very strong on wanting if not needing the English clubs back in the comp based on what you posted

Strong on wanting, all of us want PRL there, but not strong on needing. Not in the sense that they will not participate in HEC without the PRL. Unlike the comments of Goze quoted some time ago, and quoted at the top of the article.
To me it looks like Goze is simply side-stepping any question of LNR responsibility of PRL isolation.

It reads to me like they going in this year in the understanding everything the PRL are asking for in terms of governance will be implemented in the revision next year.

mystiroakey wrote:Not sure what you are reading but to me is pretty clear. The whole point of this is to have a transitional period to sort out a new comp which has to include the English teams.

Well it's a transitional period, and hopefully one that will include the integration of AP teams, but not solely for that purpose. As Goze stated, if PRL do not  commit to HEC for the following year then they will have a meeting to consider their options. Makes sense to me.

It needs to be remembered that this is the thoughts of Goze. Not an official LNR statement, and not FFR.

Dont expect the French to keep staying in the ERC if England dont come back in, eventually another comp will be formed if they dont come back

mystiroakey wrote:Dont expect the French to keep staying in the ERC if England dont come back in, eventually another comp will be formed if they dont come back

Yeh sure buddy, heard it all back in 1999 as well.  No doubt this time next year, the PRL will be "desperately close to a deal" and the "HC is dead" and the Celtic nations will be facing "financial oblivion".

You might want to be careful that you don't end up in the same highly delusion hyper reality that McCafferty and friends seem to reside in.

Artfull dodger are you reading what is said.

All I stated was the English will either come back or start a new comp

The likelyhood is they will come back..

There is nothing delusion about that factual statement.

Now where is this delusion. Or are you the deluded one?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Well there you go then.

The French are very strong on wanting if not needing the English clubs back in the comp based on what you posted

Strong on wanting, all of us want PRL there, but not strong on needing. Not in the sense that they will not participate in HEC without the PRL. Unlike the comments of Goze quoted some time ago, and quoted at the top of the article.
To me it looks like Goze is simply side-stepping any question of LNR responsibility of PRL isolation.

It reads to me like they going in this year in the understanding everything the PRL are asking for in terms of governance will be implemented in the revision next year.

It reads to me like Goze is hoping for a shared structure within HEC which remains under control of what will be ERC by another name. Not what PRL were demanding. This is Goze speaking for himself though. Not an official LNR statement, and not necessarily something agreed with FFR. In fact, the latter part of the article makes it fairly plain that this isn't something agreed with FFR.
Goze comments to the effect that LNR have used the RCC as a means of leverage to gain advantage in negotiations with FFR. They have used this to great effect, were they ever serious about leaving HEC?, and may side with PRL again if it's to their advantage.
As ever, there remains much to speculate on, but hopefully FFR will issue a statement soon to add clarity.

Knowsit17 wrote:PRL's absence will free up extra revenue for the other organisations no?

Yup - the estimate I have seen is this is about the same as the reduction in fee because of loosing English clubs - 25% ish. so pretty much the smae money all round

So how is that more money lol,,

And the point is about next time anyway. Sky are only offering a pro rated amount in the hope the ap teams will be back in next year. So they keep everyone at the ERC sweet

mystiroakey wrote:Dont expect the French to keep staying in the ERC if England dont come back in, eventually another comp will be formed if they dont come back

Nope - it will be the HC under ERC - names might change but this is what it will be. No new comp.

Goze does not speak for all the French stakeholders does he? treat what he says with a little scepticism. Trying to put a gloss on it to save face.

I am looking forward to McCaffreys next statement. should be amusing

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Dont expect the French to keep staying in the ERC if England dont come back in, eventually another comp will be formed if they dont come back

Nope - it will be the HC under ERC - names might change but this is what it will be.  No new comp.

What are you talking about,

Again . 

If the prl do not come back in they will eventually create a new comp.. Not sure why this is so hard for posters to work out.

It will not be a new competition. It will be the same one with the english clubs readmitted - or are you saying the HC was different before and after the last stupid English boycott?

What are you talking about .

I am saying very clearly. If the ap teams don't come back into the hc they will create another tourny.That could include any teams you could think of or one off annual things etc. but they will not just do nothing.

I have not once suggested they will replace the ERC. However they could eventually tempt France away..

mystiroakey wrote:Dont expect the French to keep staying in the ERC if England dont come back in, eventually another comp will be formed if they dont come back

Well thats if the FFR gives them permission. Do you think thats likely to happen?

profitius wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Dont expect the French to keep staying in the ERC if England dont come back in, eventually another comp will be formed if they dont come back

Well thats if the FFR gives them permission. Do you think thats likely to happen?

With Serge in and the TV deal already agreed? Possibly. As I said before the French need to be tied in for a good few years.

mystiroakey wrote:What are you talking about .

I am saying very clearly. If the ap teams don't come back into the hc they will create another tourny.That could include any teams you could think of or one off annual things etc. but they will not just do nothing.

I have not once suggested they will replace the ERC. However they could eventually tempt France away..

Nonsense - who are they going to play?  Not the French or anyone else in Europe.  Not the South Africans - the IRB will not allow the super 15 to fold and the south Africans will not destroy the Currie cup.  Similarly not NZ or Aus clubs.  Argentian?  Georgia?  Japan ? romania?  

Nonsense - england have no one else to pay in a regular meaningful club competition. The ERC run european cup is the only game in town - and the english clubs are not playing in it. Tehy will have to rejoin. Names migh change but principles will not. it will remain union run and the PRL will have to take waht they are offerd not try to dictate terms. McCaffrey will be ousted from power soon and that might pave the way for sensible negotiations

Guardian again

The future of a European club competition is mired in uncertainty despite Thursday's decision by France's leading sides to abort the tournament they had been planning with Premiership Rugby as a replacement for the Heineken Cup.

Although the announcement of Ligue Nationale de Rugby that it was pulling out of the Rugby Champions Cup was seen as a defeat for Premiership Rugby and a victory for the four RaboDirect Pro 12 unions and the French Rugby Federation, which last week said the Heineken Cup would continue next season without the English, the French clubs have not left their partners isolated nor committed themselves to European Rugby Cup Ltd.

They said they were prepared to sign a new accord to take part in the Heineken Cup but on two conditions. The first was that the English clubs were willing to participate and the second was that a new body be set up in place of ERC to run it. A complication was that the clubs talked about the change not happening until the 2015-16 campaign and that next season in Europe would be a transitional one.

That raised the prospect of English clubs going without European competition next season but the chief executive of Premiership Rugby, Mark McCafferty, did not rule out participating in an ERC tournament for one final year. "If we can see there is a new structure to replace ERC and we have the detail of that, then something might be feasible," he said.

The president of the LNR, Paul Goze, denied his clubs had "gone into reverse gear". He said that, if their two conditions were met by February, they would agree to play from 2015-16 in two 20-team tournaments, currently the Heineken and Amlin Challenge cups, with the proceeds divided equally between the three leagues that supply teams to them: the Top 14, Premiership and Pro 12.

The presidents of 12 of the 14 LNR clubs – Montpellier and Castres were the absentees – met in Orly along with seven second division sides to discuss the way ahead after the president of the French federation, Pierre Camou, had put pressure on them to abandon the Rugby Champions Cup and return to ERC, the body they last year gave notice of leaving at the end of the season, along with Premiership Rugby.

"I had spoken to the French before their meeting and the one surprise was the transition year," said McCafferty. "I am not sure what they have in mind, whether they will take part in Europe next season if we are not involved, and need to talk to them again.

"My view is that it would be very difficult to start a new European tournament in 2015-16 because the World Cup is taking place then. It would be better to wait until the following season but it is clear that the position of the French clubs has not changed: they, like us, want a tournament that is meritocratic, financially fair and run by a different body from ERC.

"The French have been talking about governance on Uefa lines, a mix of unions and leagues, and we would need to look at that with them. The French clubs have not capitulated or abandoned us though we would still like something to be set up next season."

Aside of the issues of governance and finance, ERC has a television contract with Sky and the English clubs have a deal with BT that covers cross-border matches. "I have spoken to BT and they want to find out exactly what LNR have in mind," said McCafferty.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/euro-lifeline-for-english-clubs-29793238.html

Tj you have completed missed the point. Again listen

If the prl don't come back in the ERC it will eventually form another comp.

If you can't work that out more fool you.

Yes they will probably rejoin the ERC but if they don't they will form another comp.

mystiroakey wrote:Tj you have completed missed the point. Again listen

If the prl don't come back in the ERC it will eventually form another comp.

If you can't work that out more fool you.

Yes they will probably rejoin the ERC but if they don't they will form another comp.

Who with? they have no one to play with.

tthat piece fromthe guardian is more wish fulfilment from the PRL mouthpieces - although McCaffreey seems to realise he has made a major blunder and overplayed his hand and be preparing a retrats. Goze is not in any sort of a strong position eitehr both desparatly attempting to save face.

Eventually they would do.. Things change with time.

If they don't rejoin it's pretty clear that they will be pursuing other avenues