India in South Africa 2013

The BCCI have picked the test squad for South Africa well in advance, so the debates can also start well in time.

The test squad.
Mahendra Singh Dhoni (C/WK)
Shikhar Dhawan
Murali Vijay
Cheteshwar Pujara
Virat Kohli
Ajinkya Rahane
Rohit Sharma
Ambati Rayudu
Ravindra Jadeja
Wrriddhiman Saha (WK)
Ravichandran Ashwin
Zaheer Khan
Mohammed Shami
Umesh Yadav
Bhuvneshwar Kumar
Ishant Sharma
Pragyan Ojha.

Thanks msp..I posted the ODI squad also....and it's a good situation to have practise games followed by ODIs followed by tests...whihc means 3 ODIs will be like practise games with full intesity before the test.
less is at stake in an ODI then in tests

ODI squad: MS Dhoni (capt & wk), Shikhar Dhawan, Suresh Raina,Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma, Ajinkya Rahane ,Yuvraj Singh, R Ashwin, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Mohammed Shami, Ambati Rayudu, Umesh Yadav, Ishant Sharma, Mohit Sharma, Ravindra Jadeja, Amit Mishra

KPF, that is the only reason I'd agree with Zaheer's selection in the ODI side. Though the Indian seamers haven't been doing a great job in the home ODIs, we have to keep in mind that Zaheer's not getting any younger and he is at a stage of his career where the focus has to be on getting the best out of him in the longer format.

How long will the selectors keep ignoring Rishi Dhawan? Should have been given an opening at least at the ODI level.

Another interesting call is that the selectors haven't gone for a reserve opener. Dinesh Karthik couldn't sneak through ahead of Saha on the basis of his ability to double up as a reserve opener either, and I think that is a good call as Karthik has been awful form in the Ranji Trophy while Saha has performed well. By the look of things, if there is any need, Rohit Sharma or Cheteshwar Pujara might step up as the replacement opener.

Now the analysis part:

--Gambhir wasn't gonna go......if he wasn't first choice in the playing 11...and rightly they will give vijay 2 tests in SA...should he fail Gambhir will come in for the NZ series.

--that Zaheer goes implies he will be in the playing 11 if fit.

--Good to see the principle of consistency apply and Saha hold his place instead of a compromise Karthik

--can't believe they are taking 17 players for a two test series....unbelievable especially Ojha as 3rd spinner......when playing even 2 spinners is a 50-50 situation
Ojha should have been left out.......and Rayadu is also surplus.

--Ishant should have been left out...but we know Dhoni loves Raina, Ishant, Rohit and Ojha beyond reason. Atleast Raina is not in the test squad...I wish Mohit was there instead of Ishant.

--Finally the only main test player who will miss out on practise in ODIs is Pujara.....there was plenty of justifcation for taking him instead of Yuyraj in the ODI side

There is more good than bad in the selection.......and the line of thinking is quite clear and logical.....India will play T1 with Jadeja, ashwin and 3 seamers including Zaheer.......Yadav and Shami being the otehr two

msp83 wrote:How long will the selectors keep ignoring Rishi Dhawan? Should have been given an opening at least at the ODI level.

he can't directly and that too on a high profile tour like this

he's gotta play some A cricket first....or wait for anotehr Zim/ BD / NZ type low profile series when a second string side is feilded by India

Think he could have been considered in the ODI squad. Or picked in the test squad for the squad experience of the place waster Ishant. And the 3rd spinner certainly is an unwanted luxury. But I think it is a good call to put Rayudu in the squad if they are considering him as a test option. He might not play, but the experience will be useful. He's quite experienced at the domestic level, and time with the national squad would help him shape up better as an international player.

I struggle to get excited about a 2-test series. Barely watch ODI's and can't be bothered about T20s... Pretty poor form this series.

Ishant Sharma has one good Ranji game, and everything else is forgotten and Mr. Rubbish is back in the ODI side as well.

the squad is way too big for a 2 match series..

India have overseas assignments lined up for New Zealand and then England after the South African tour. So it is not a bad idea to go in with a larger squad. But I am not sure they've got all the players currectly identified.

I am actually disillusioned with Indian cricket at the moment, the Whole BCCI controlling attitude is getting to me.

They are robbing us of a proper summer season of cricket.

Biltong wrote:I am actually disillusioned with Indian cricket at the moment, the Whole BCCI controlling attitude is getting to me.

They are robbing us of a proper summer season of cricket.

it's srinivasan coloring BCCI in his color......someone like Dalmiya is also autocratic but not pigheaded.
But this phase too shall pass....Srinivasan will go in 9 more months and cannot be re-elected.....life has to get better after him

I would like to see Dhoni score runs away from home in SA... very good batsman, but ive never seen him make big runs in SA.

MS scored a 90 in SA last time and was involved in a big partnership with Sachin Tendulkar.

So is M Vijay's opening slot under threat?

He's averaging 20 in the Indian domestic FC season thus far.

Everyone knows his footwork is terrible.

He's gonna be a sitting duck for Steyn and Philander

Vijay has averaged about 60 in his last 6 odd tests vs. Aus and WI...in Indian conditiosn.
 
His temperament is very strong and his ability to raise his game when in intrernationals is good.
His position is under threat...but if he scores with an average of 30+ in SA....he would be OK...and I do belive he will make it.
 
It's not his footwork but rather his ability to leave the ball outside the off stump that puts him in trouble...he tries too much to hit away from the body.

his foot work is OK and he is actually quite OK in handling the short ball also....nothing great he is strictly and OK opener.
But if he does his 30+...then it's Dhawan+Rohit+Pujara+Kohli......the glamnorous four that make the spine of Indian batting....two of them have to have a 60+ average series and the otehr two 35+ average.

Zaheer Khan, though not part of the ODI squad, will be flying out to South Africa early. The Indian skipper wanted the BCCI to have Zaheer in early in the tour, so that he can help the young seamers in the side and also get used to the conditions well in time.

msp83 wrote:Zaheer Khan, though not part of the ODI squad, will be flying out to South Africa early. The Indian skipper wanted the BCCI to have Zaheer in early in the tour, so that he can help the young seamers in the side and also get used to the conditions well in time.

i noted this earlier...that India should use the 3 ODIs as a practise for tests...and should have had Pujara and Zaheer in the ODI squad

The Indian skipper, in his usual calm and cool way, makes some interesting and important points before leaving for South Africa.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-africa-v-india-2013-14/content/story/695107.html

As MS said, it is good that the ODIs are played before the tests. In that India squad, only MS and Zaheer have played more than 25 tests besides Mr. incompetent Ishant Sharma.

msp83 wrote:As MS said, it is good that the ODIs are played before the tests. In that India squad, only MS and Zaheer have played more than 25 tests besides Mr. incompetent Ishant Sharma.

yes that's a major plus as we disciussed......and so Zaheer and Pujara the 2 key test guys should have been very good in ODI side.

also as we discussed ........Gambhir is in the reckoning......but selectors are following the policy of fairness and consistency for Vijay who has done well in last 6 tests.

so if he doesn't average 30+......Gambhir will go to NZ

and it appersr from his comments that India will play 6 batsmen

Yeah, 6 batsmen it sounds like. Rahane at 4, Kohli at 5 and Rohit at 6?

msp83 wrote:Yeah, 6 batsmen it sounds like. Rahane at 4, Kohli at 5 and Rohit at 6?

If jadeja shows enough good form with the bat in the 3 ODIs......he might sill play...althouhg at this point it's looking Rahane more likely...and given his technique it would make sense to have Pujara and Rahane at 3 and 4.
with Rohit,Kohli and Dhoni coming when the shine is off........and hopefully in 80 overs when the second new ball is due India has already amassed 400 runs

well.....for the first time in a long time I feel optiistic abut India's chances overseas in seaming bouncing conditions.....a pace attack of Yadav, Zaheer and Shami
and a batting line-up not proven in foreign test conditions....and yet very promising

Bhuvi should play ahead of Yadav. Yadav has been bowling awfully in Ranji. I am not opposed to the idea of Rahane at 4 in itself but what if they suddenly decide to play 5 bowlers (I hope not, Jadeja is hopeless with the bat)? Surely Rahane would be the one to miss out then (I know MSP and KPF are hell bent on kicking Rohit out but I hope thats not gonna happen after his 2 100s in the last series). Then you have to again re-shuffle the batting order with Kohli and Rohit moving one spot up. Its a lot easier if the newcomer bats at 6 as he can be swapped for an extra bowler (if needed) without disturbing the top 5.
Anyways, I won't play a fifth bowler under any circumstances in SA, so I'm not opposed to Rahane at 4, Kohli at 5 and Rohit at 6. Don't think it'll be happen though. Rahane will bat at 6. Really hope they don't go with MSD at 6 and Jadeja at 7.

Shanky, Sharma deserved kicked and dragged out when he wasn't performing. Rohit has performed well in the West Indies test series, there is no reason to kick him out at this stage. Doubt the management would ever think on those lines anyways, they pampered him when all he deserved was a massive kick in the back. Now that he's performing, he has to stay in. If they go for 5 bowlers, it'll be Rahane who'll miss out. South Africa won't offer pitches that would help the spinners much, so no point playing both Ashwin and Jadeja. Think Ashwin's batting technique is better than that of Jadeja, and so he should start the series.
Rahane is a top order batsman, Rohit showed good skills when batting with the tail against the West Indies. So Rohit to stay at 6 where he has played his 2 tests, and Rahane at 4.

msp83 wrote:Shanky, Sharma deserved kicked and dragged out when he wasn't performing. Rohit has performed well in the West Indies test series, there is no reason to kick him out at this stage. Doubt the management would ever think on those lines anyways, they pampered him when all he deserved was a massive kick in the back. Now that he's performing, he has to stay in. If they go for 5 bowlers, it'll be Rahane who'll miss out. South Africa won't offer pitches that would help the spinners much, so no point playing both Ashwin and Jadeja. Think Ashwin's batting technique is better than that of Jadeja, and so he should start the series.
Rahane is a top order batsman, Rohit showed good skills when batting with the tail against the West Indies. So Rohit to stay at 6 where he has played his 2 tests, and Rahane at 4.

I don't disagree with any of that. Except that I may consider Ojha as my spin option if Ashwin doesn't show good form during the ODIs but I'd like Ashwin to do well as the balance is much better with him at 8 as opposed to Ojha at 11.

If both Ashwin and Jadeja are fit, then I'd have one of them taking the spinning duties. Ojha to come in as injury cover only. Don't think Ojha can offer much more than control on the South African tracks, Jadeja might be better at it, and of course Ojha is not good enough to bat anywhere other than 11.

Well, Ojha has taken wickets in England in County cricket and IMO has got better control than Ashwin. He also took a 10 wicket haul in his last Test and more importantly, outbowled Ashwin against England last year. But if Ashwin is bowling well in ODIs, I'd go with him.

msp83 wrote:Shanky, Sharma deserved kicked and dragged out when he wasn't performing. Rohit has performed well in the West Indies test series, there is no reason to kick him out at this stage. Doubt the management would ever think on those lines anyways, they pampered him when all he deserved was a massive kick in the back. Now that he's performing, he has to stay in. If they go for 5 bowlers, it'll be Rahane who'll miss out. South Africa won't offer pitches that would help the spinners much, so no point playing both Ashwin and Jadeja. Think Ashwin's batting technique is better than that of Jadeja, and so he should start the series.
Rahane is a top order batsman, Rohit showed good skills when batting with the tail against the West Indies. So Rohit to stay at 6 where he has played his 2 tests, and Rahane at 4.

I agree with everything you say here msp

msp83 wrote:If both Ashwin and Jadeja are fit, then I'd have one of them taking the spinning duties. Ojha to come in as injury cover only. Don't think Ojha can offer much more than control on the South African tracks, Jadeja might be better at it, and of course Ojha is not good enough to bat anywhere other than 11.

I agree Ojha is no. 3 behind Ashwin and Jadeja

ShankyCricket wrote:Bhuvi should play ahead of Yadav. Yadav has been bowling awfully in Ranji.

Yadav can bowl 155kph......that's about 30kph faster than B. Kumar...who himsefl hasn't been doing anything exceptional recently.

what Yadav can do is what we say him do in austrlia...ran throuhg an aussie side with a 6-fer for nothing at listering pace.
for Swing and seam....we have Zaheer and shami already in the 135-140kph range

I've seen Umesh clocking 147-148 regularly. He has at times managed to touch the 150 mark and usually bowls in the 140-145 kph range. Don't think he's 155 stuff. And besides, speed is also a confidence thing. Not sure Yadav is in the best frame of mind after a poor Ranji out in the early season exchanges. Perhaps South African pitches might give him the much needed spark. Zaheer and Kumar bowl in the 130-135 range though the former can crank it up to the late 130s to even early 140s when the mood really gets hold of him and when he sees a vulnerability in a batsman. Zak is a much more skillful bowler as well. If it was England, I'd undoubtedly go for Zaheer, Bhuvi and Shami. But for SA, I am undecided between Yadav and Kumar. Considering conventional swing and seam rather than reverse is going to play a greater role in SA conditions, think at this point, Kumar is just ahead of Umesh in the pecking order in my view. Besides, he's the man in possession. He hasn't done anything great in the West Indies series, nor has he bowled himself out of contention. Umesh hasn't done anything special in domestic cricket either. Bhuvneshwar can bat a bit as well.

I won't complain if the management eventually go with Yadav. But Bhuvneshwar has an opportunity to nail the position in the ODIs. I'll be furious if they play Ishant based on potential.

Still can't believe the BCCI dictates there will only be two tests.

Then CSA still decides to host one match in Durban where have lost the previous five tests welayed there.

They should move that test to the Highveldt.

Not really looking forward to this series. It simply just feels wrong.

Something is better than nothing, biltong.

In this India test squad, only skipper Mahendra Singh Dhoni has more than 1500 test runs. Will be a real test for the young and inexperienced batting lineup.

msp83 wrote:I won't complain if the management eventually go with Yadav. But Bhuvneshwar has an opportunity to nail the position in the ODIs. I'll be furious if they play Ishant based on potential.

there is too much of sameness without Yadav...medium to fast medium seamers......Yadav brings in skiddy pace

Biltong wrote:Still can't believe the BCCI dictates there will only be two tests.

Then CSA still decides to host one match in Durban where have lost the previous five tests welayed there.

They should move that test to the Highveldt.

Not really looking forward to this series. It simply just feels wrong.

yes you are being too harsh on yourself.......the politcians did what they had to...now it's game between one top and one on paper stroing looking side.
I hope it will be a close and tough series

I think in silent protest I won't follow this series.

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:I won't complain if the management eventually go with Yadav. But Bhuvneshwar has an opportunity to nail the position in the ODIs. I'll be furious if they play Ishant based on potential.

there is too much of sameness without Yadav...medium to fast medium seamers......Yadav brings in skiddy pace

Unfortunately, pace is the only thing that he brings. Bhuvi is far more skillful, more accurate and can bat a bit as well. I don't understand the obsession with pace. Yadav is averaging 70 in this year's Ranji Trophy. And when did Yadav bowl 155 mph btw?

msp83 wrote:If both Ashwin and Jadeja are fit, then I'd have one of them taking the spinning duties. Ojha to come in as injury cover only. Don't think Ojha can offer much more than control on the South African tracks, Jadeja might be better at it, and of course Ojha is not good enough to bat anywhere other than 11.

Isn't that exactly what we needed from our spinner in SA? Not sure I'd trust Ashwin for control. Gets rattled way too quickly. KP did that and AB might too.

ShankyCricket wrote:

msp83 wrote:If both Ashwin and Jadeja are fit, then I'd have one of them taking the spinning duties. Ojha to come in as injury cover only. Don't think Ojha can offer much more than control on the South African tracks, Jadeja might be better at it, and of course Ojha is not good enough to bat anywhere other than 11.

Isn't that exactly what we needed from our spinner in SA? Not sure I'd trust Ashwin for control. Gets rattled way too quickly. KP did that and AB might too.

The Australian series was Ashwin's first and so far only test assignment away from the sub-continent. Even Graeme Swann averages close to 50 in Australia, Harbhajan Singh was hopeless downunder and even the great Murali struggled there. It'll be unfair to judge Ashwin by his away record from that single series. KP got to him in India, but KP on his day can take on the very best of them. The England series wasn't Ashwin's finest hour with the ball. Ojha was better than Ashwin in that series, but not by a country mile. When all 3 of them played against Australia, Jadeja looked the best in terms of offering control, and he brings a lot more to the table than Ojha does. So either Ashwin or Jadeja for me, I wouldn't even have selected Ojha for this 2 match series......

ShankyCricket wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:I won't complain if the management eventually go with Yadav. But Bhuvneshwar has an opportunity to nail the position in the ODIs. I'll be furious if they play Ishant based on potential.

there is too much of sameness without Yadav...medium to fast medium seamers......Yadav brings in skiddy pace

Unfortunately, pace is the only thing that he brings. Bhuvi is far more skillful, more accurate and can bat a bit as well. I don't understand the obsession with pace. Yadav is averaging 70 in this year's Ranji Trophy. And when did Yadav bowl 155 mph btw?

Pace does matter a lot. Accuracy is very important for any bowler, but being accurate at 125 KPH may not trouble many. Bhuvneshwar is quicker than that, but Yadav's pace is not something to be scoffed at. I am sure Shanky would know that Yadav plays for Vidarbha, and they play their home game on a horrendous flat road. Yadav hasn't been doing great in the away games either I know, but we have to cut him some slack for playing on that road and still possessing the will to bowl fast. And your statement that Yadav doesn't bring anything other than pace is quite unfair. Would agree to some extend if you had said that about Varun Aaron. Yadav can bowl a testing bouncer, and can generate reverse swing at high pace. And unlike Aaron, he can get the new ball to seam a bit as well. Bhuvneshwar certainly is a lot more skilled with the new ball, but at present, at this stage of his career, he doesn't offer much with the older ball.

msp83 wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:I won't complain if the management eventually go with Yadav. But Bhuvneshwar has an opportunity to nail the position in the ODIs. I'll be furious if they play Ishant based on potential.

there is too much of sameness without Yadav...medium to fast medium seamers......Yadav brings in skiddy pace

Unfortunately, pace is the only thing that he brings. Bhuvi is far more skillful, more accurate and can bat a bit as well. I don't understand the obsession with pace. Yadav is averaging 70 in this year's Ranji Trophy. And when did Yadav bowl 155 mph btw?

Pace does matter a lot. Accuracy is very important for any bowler, but being accurate at 125 KPH may not trouble many. Bhuvneshwar is quicker than that, but Yadav's pace is not something to be scoffed at. I am sure Shanky would know that Yadav plays for Vidarbha, and they play their home game on a horrendous flat road. Yadav hasn't been doing great in the away games either I know, but we  have to cut him some slack for playing on that road and still possessing the will to bowl fast. And your statement that Yadav doesn't bring anything other than pace is quite unfair. Would agree to some extend if you had said that about Varun Aaron. Yadav can bowl a testing bouncer, and can generate reverse swing at high pace. And unlike Aaron, he can get the new ball to seam a bit as well. Bhuvneshwar certainly is a lot more skilled with the new ball, but at present, at this stage of his career, he doesn't offer much with the older ball.

largely on the mark msp.
Often times...pace is dismissed by comments like "accuracy, control, movement " are important.

no one is asking for those virtues to be sacrificed.
Yadav has a Strike Rate of 46 balls / wicket...that is comparable with Steyn...over 9 tests is not a small window and half of his tests might be in India
why he has 32 wickets...because in Aus India was getting beaten by innings margin.......so he was getting to bowl barely in one inning
and in India spinners have picked majority of wickets.

His pace is not wwhat we saw in Champions Tropy 140-145...that was a "controlled " version of him..someone asking him to cut pace to gain control

His uninhibited version was in Aus at the fastest hitting 156kph but generally 145+ pace...andd that is quick.

I'm with Biltong on this. Not even going to follow this series. Almost didn't renew my season ticket at the Wanderers, in annoyance... My common sense thought better, but I'm not watching.

msp83 wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:

msp83 wrote:If both Ashwin and Jadeja are fit, then I'd have one of them taking the spinning duties. Ojha to come in as injury cover only. Don't think Ojha can offer much more than control on the South African tracks, Jadeja might be better at it, and of course Ojha is not good enough to bat anywhere other than 11.

Isn't that exactly what we needed from our spinner in SA? Not sure I'd trust Ashwin for control. Gets rattled way too quickly. KP did that and AB might too.

The Australian series was Ashwin's first and so far only test assignment away from the sub-continent. Even Graeme Swann averages close to 50 in Australia, Harbhajan Singh was hopeless downunder and even the great Murali struggled there. It'll be unfair to judge Ashwin by his away record from that single series. KP got to him in India, but KP on his day can take on the very best of them. The England series wasn't Ashwin's finest hour with the ball. Ojha was better than Ashwin in that series, but not by a country mile. When all 3 of them played against Australia, Jadeja looked the best in terms of offering control, and he brings a lot more to the table than Ojha does. So either Ashwin or Jadeja for me, I wouldn't even have selected Ojha for this 2 match series......

Err, Ojha averaged nearly half of Ashwin in that series. If thats not outbowling by a country mile, I don't know what is. England is the only decent batting lineup Ashwin and Ojha have bowled too (apart from Aus in Aus, where Ojha didn't get a chance), so obviously that series needs to be significantly taken into account. How can you write off Ojha overseas without even giving him a chance? Ashwin has shown time and time again that he is rattled by an onslaught. Clarke and Ponting did that in Oz, and KP in India. I can see why you don't want Bhajji back but don't really understand the opposition towards Ojha.