Jamie Heaslip - Why is he one of Irelands most capped player of the last 5 years? NEW POLL ADDED!!!

First topic message reminder :

There are lots and lots of Heaslip haters. Some of the reasons people dont rate him are absolutly hilarious:

He wears his pants too low.
He tweets too much.
He cant run anymore.
He has a nice haircut.
He owns a restaurant.

However, he is a key player for Ireland and one of the few players who manages to play test after test match without injury. Anyway here is an analysis from the NZ game of why he keeps getting picked for Ireland and what makes him such a key player and consistently one of the first names on the team sheet and in my opinion a bloody good player.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/jamie-heaslip-ireland-1193036-Nov2013/

Feel free to post your love or hate for Heaslip here.

profitius wrote:Hookisms, you're trying to use stats there to make a point. So how about this. The players wear GPS trackers that track their movement around the field. Thats nothing new but wouldn't you concede its a better reflection of workrate than tackle stats?!


You probably didn't see POM because he was hitting rucks all the time. Why not have a look at the ruck stats instead and you'll see Ireland didn't do too badly against one of the best rucking teams in the world.

There is no point in arguing with Hookie on POM. Over the last year when he say carries well, then he should be hitting rucks and securing ball. When his tackle count is high , he should carry more. When he turns over ball its something else yada yada. POM looked like he played a different game last week to his usual which might have been down to Schmidt. The backrow looked a lot more balanced at any rate. Made some important tackles when on and a couple of good carries and plugged the gaps in the defensive line as well as securing our ball on numerous occasions and was nearly always in support of the ball carrier. Poor old hookie gets all upset if any Munster player gets some kudos, does his head in. Its from his losing experiences as a player...

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:No its not a better reflection.  It can certainly add to an overall picture.  The stats I pointed at are a disappointing reflection on a player you rate.  So obviously he must have been doing the 'unseen work'.  Exactly the same argument used to pillory Heaslip.  Your stats might reflect that he was in the vicinity of a ruck, but don't indicate whether he actually hit any, or if he hit any how effective his rucking actually was.  Of course he hit plenty, I'm not suggesting otherwise as I saw him hit many a ruck.  But someone like Falateau for instance, an 'average player' to plenty of Irish fans defending Heaslip, can manage to hit alot of rucks, carry effectively, and invariably put in a vast amount of tackles.  Yet he is 'average' and someone like Heaslip is 'word class' and POM is the second coming who 'never takes a backward step'^tm and a ligind in the making.  

If you have a link to the ruck stats I'll be delighted to look at them and even more delighted to be proved wrong.  I'm not sure where to find them and Google are being remarkably unhelpful.  Otherwise he's all Frankie hype machine, little substance.

That doesn't really explain why you jumped down my throat because I said he (and Heaslip) both had good games. I didn't say world class, or outstanding, or 'ligindery'. Just good.

I know its a persona, and partly a bit of craic online, but it's possible to give a player balanced and proportionate praise when he does do well and criticism when he doesn't...

If I jumped down your throat Notch, believe me, you would know. I could make all sorts of smutty jokes about gag reflexes and your ability to swallow loads but frankly its crass. You should be ashamed for even bringing it up.

I picked on your post because it was the last one I saw. But I was referring the 'you' as in the 'royal you', as in everyone. Yeah, I'm a subject not a citizen and I care not a jot. Not. a. jot.

I wouldn't say POM was good. I would say passable. Average. There's worse performances he could have put in. But when pretty much every player raised their game, even Mike Ross could be described as dynamic God love him, POM needed to do more than be passable. When you have to search for praise like 'he hit rucks' then you know there's something wrong. Look at the shifts that the other backrowers, POC, Healy, Cronin and Ross put in. They hit rucks too, but did so much more around the pitch as well.

SOB, POM & Heaslip doesn't work. Ferris, SOB & Heaslip didn't work either and playing on one leg, which is pretty much what he was doing, Ferris is at least twice the player POM is. Its not an Ulster thing, its simple fact. But that unit didn't work. Sure they could put in a big performance once in a while, like against Australia in the World Cup, but otherwise they were usually outplayed. Especially by Wales on numerous occasions. We need better balance in there which for my money will be TOD (if he returns to the end of last seasons form) or Henry. Either will do grand. That means one of SOB, Heaslip or POM has to go. It won't be SOB. Ireland only have at most two 'world class players' and he is one of them, maybe the only one in fact. Heaslip has been resting on his laurels for quite some time. He hasn't been doing the 'unseen work', he's just been below his best. The New Zealand match just showed the level he such be in every match which frankly, is a gear or two higher than POM has ever shown he has in his locker. He might get there, he is talented for sure. But he's a passenger at international level.

I can give praise to POM where he deserves it. Like against France in the Six Nations last season. Ireland's best player on the day. I thought he had turned a corner there but he hadn't. A performance against USA and Canada does not a future captain make.

Was he not man of the match against Samoa? (ignoring Tony Ward usually giving MOTM to the out half of the winning team!)

From what you claim,  you'd think POM had a poor game against the ABs, yet any comment/player ratings had him at 7 or 8 out of 10, similar to what Heaslip got. SOB obviously got Man of the Match, but those player ratings are not shabby.

POM is a fine footballer with a great pass and a decent boot for a Back, let alone a forward, excellent in the line out as both a jumper and a lifter.

Sin é wrote:Was he not man of the match against Samoa? (ignoring Tony Ward usually giving MOTM to the out half of the winning team!)

From what you claim,  you'd think POM had a poor game against the ABs, yet any comment/player ratings had him at 7 or 8 out of 10, similar to what Heaslip got. SOB obviously got Man of the Match, but those player ratings are not shabby.

POM is a fine footballer with a great pass and a decent boot for a Back, let alone a forward, excellent in the line out as both a jumper and a lifter.

Like i said no point in discussing with hookie. As a player he got so many beatings from Munster teams he had a blind spot. Old Frankie must have given him a doing over as he seems to pick on his analysis,in the meantime ignoring everyone elses positive outlook. Regardless, it would seem Joe rates him as well.

Sin é wrote:POM is a fine footballer with a great pass and a decent boot for a Back, let alone a forward, excellent in the line out as both a jumper and a lifter.

All very well and good but he's there as a forward, I thought Munster forwards who kicked the ball away were hoisted up the goalposts at Thomond and only taken down on their birthday?

Agreed he is good in the lineout but he's no Bonnaire there either, and that is like a lot of his game - he is good at most things but as yet not outstanding at anything. Thus far he hasn't shown the nous of his Munster predecessors Quinlan, Leamy and Foley, all of whom had an undeniable cleverness to their game. While Heaslip and O'Brien were outplaying Read and McCaw, it looked as though the least illustrious of the Kiwi backrow - Luatua outplayed POM.

I rate POM highly and I think he will go far.  He just needs to be utilised correctly.  I do agree with Hook that he is best when he is in the thick of the action, as he is for Munster, but obviously another string to his bow is that he is also an excellent ball carrier and playmaker.  So he can play both the tight games and the more open games depending on what is required.

The back row in itself isn't balanced, that is also true.  However, POM is a player I would like to see included, as he is very talented with a lot of potential.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:POM is a fine footballer with a great pass and a decent boot for a Back, let alone a forward, excellent in the line out as both a jumper and a lifter.

All very well and good but he's there as a forward, I thought Munster forwards who kicked the ball away were hoisted up the goalposts at Thomond and only taken down on their birthday?

Agreed he is good in the lineout but he's no Bonnaire there either, and that is like a lot of his game - he is good at most things but as yet not outstanding at anything. Thus far he hasn't shown the nous of his Munster predecessors Quinlan, Leamy and Foley, all of whom had an undeniable cleverness to their game. While Heaslip and O'Brien were outplaying Read and McCaw, it looked as though the least illustrious of the Kiwi backrow - Luatua outplayed POM.

Luatua had a very quiet game, only when Messam came on ( and McLaughlin) did the abs backrow start to play

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:POM is a fine footballer with a great pass and a decent boot for a Back, let alone a forward, excellent in the line out as both a jumper and a lifter.

All very well and good but he's there as a forward, I thought Munster forwards who kicked the ball away were hoisted up the goalposts at Thomond and only taken down on their birthday?

Agreed he is good in the lineout but he's no Bonnaire there either, and that is like a lot of his game - he is good at most things but as yet not outstanding at anything. Thus far he hasn't shown the nous of his Munster predecessors Quinlan, Leamy and Foley, all of whom had an undeniable cleverness to their game. While Heaslip and O'Brien were outplaying Read and McCaw, it looked as though the least illustrious of the Kiwi backrow - Luatua outplayed POM.

You need to look up some vids of Keith Wood in action   Sexton & Co. would learn a thing or two from woody about how to clear a ball. POM kicked one great clearance against the All Blacks last week. If Sexton did it, he would have got a standing ovation!

POM is excellent in the line out because he provides a variety in that he could be jumping or lifting. I doubt if Quinny or Foley's cleverness was apparent at the start of their careers as it is at the end - POM is just gone 24. From what I remember about Quinny at 24, he was a bit of a nutcase and he did have to calm down a bit.

POM isn't the finished article by a long shot, but he certainly seems to have adapted very easily to international rugby and he certainly is in good hands with Penney (*Kieran Read's old coach) and Foley to guide him.


*Read credits Penney with discovering and developing him as a young player in Canterbury.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: and playing on one leg, which is pretty much what he was doing, Ferris is at least twice the player POM is.  Its not an Ulster thing, its simple fact.        

100% agree. POM will never be as good a 6 as Ferris.

GunsGerms wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: and playing on one leg, which is pretty much what he was doing, Ferris is at least twice the player POM is.  Its not an Ulster thing, its simple fact.        

100% agree. POM will never be as good a 6 as Ferris.

2 completely different players. Not many can match Ferris' physicality but he isn't great in other areas. POM is more of an all rounder who can play in multiple positions and has captained every team he has been involved with.

If he is so versatile maybe Schmidt should try him out at 13 to replace Drico?

Id way way way way prefer a specialist 6 like Ferris. Much more effective player IMO.

GunsGerms wrote:If he is so versatile maybe Schmidt should try him out at 13 to replace Drico?

Id way way way way prefer a specialist 6 like Ferris. Much more effective player IMO.

Actually, Murray Kinsella reckons POM has the handling skills to be a centre!

Ferris's physicality has come at a price. Looking at his career to date, I''m not sure it was worth it.

Not sure his injuries have come as a result of being physical. Knee cartlidge doesnt have much to do with clearing out rucks. POM is just as physical just no where near as effective with his physicality.

GunsGerms wrote:Not sure his injuries have come as a result of being physical. Knee cartlidge doesnt have much to do with clearing out rucks. POM is just as physical just no where near as effective with his physicality.

I'm thinking of Ferris spending too much time in the gym.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:POM is a fine footballer with a great pass and a decent boot for a Back, let alone a forward, excellent in the line out as both a jumper and a lifter.

All very well and good but he's there as a forward, I thought Munster forwards who kicked the ball away were hoisted up the goalposts at Thomond and only taken down on their birthday?

Agreed he is good in the lineout but he's no Bonnaire there either, and that is like a lot of his game - he is good at most things but as yet not outstanding at anything. Thus far he hasn't shown the nous of his Munster predecessors Quinlan, Leamy and Foley, all of whom had an undeniable cleverness to their game. While Heaslip and O'Brien were outplaying Read and McCaw, it looked as though the least illustrious of the Kiwi backrow - Luatua outplayed POM.

You need to look up some vids of Keith Wood in action   Sexton & Co. would learn a thing or two from woody about how to clear a ball. POM kicked one great clearance against the All Blacks last week. If Sexton did it, he would have got a standing ovation!

POM is excellent in the line out because he provides a variety in that he could be jumping or lifting. I doubt if Quinny or Foley's cleverness was apparent at the start of their careers as it is at the end - POM is just gone 24. From what I remember about Quinny at 24, he was a bit of a nutcase and he did have to calm down a bit.

POM isn't the finished article by a long shot, but he certainly seems to have adapted very easily to international rugby and he certainly is in good hands with Penney (*Kieran Read's old coach) and Foley to guide him.


*Read credits Penney with discovering and developing him as a young player in Canterbury.

Going back to the original question, both Read and Heaslip started around the same time internationally and originally Jamie was a better player . Not sure you could say that now

Seems Darren Cave doesnt rate Heaslip to highly either

http://balls.ie/rugby/one-ulster-player-issues-way-irish-team-selected/

Golden wrote:Seems Darren Cave doesnt rate Heaslip to highly either

http://balls.ie/rugby/one-ulster-player-issues-way-irish-team-selected/

Thanks Golden. Very interesting article. Rare that a player would so openly reveal his frustration at not getting picked and offer such an insight into what goes on behind the scenes. Its encouraging that Schmidt has spoken to him though and given him things to work on.

Not sure what he means by his face doesnt fit? He isnt good looking enough. Strange comment really.

I think it was a joke.

The options in the poll aren't great...despite what I and a few other might say he is a "decent player who hasn't reached his potential". Which is probably why he gets so much hassle. Like I said he and Read started internationally at the same time. Read took a couple of years to develop whereas Jamie had a great first year, Ok second year and has been bobbing up and down ever since (and is now way behind in the list of No.8s worldwide). But he shouldn't be.

One vote for over-rated.

However, I'd have more respect for him if he was simply an average player at the limit of his abilities giving his best. The fact he's falling well short of his potential and has consistently underperformed for the majority of his caps frustrates me.

He's lucky he's from Leinster and there's no real competition and we're unlucky that every other NH nation has better options at 8 than us.

I think he is a lot like Pierre Spies in terms of talent. Is a top player but coaches choose him as much for his potential as they do his performances but has a tendency to go missing in matches.

Very good lineout option like Spies too at the back.

Like Spies he also plays amongst flash players who grab headlines such as O'Brien, Ferris etc at Ireland and Burger at SA.

Better player then he is regarded publically but not as good as the hype which surrounded him in his early career, a lot like Spies.

fa0019 wrote:I think he is a lot like Pierre Spies in terms of talent. Is a top player but coaches choose him as much for his potential as they do his performances but has a tendency to go missing in matches.

Very good lineout option like Spies too at the back.

Like Spies he also plays amongst flash players who grab headlines such as O'Brien, Ferris etc at Ireland and Burger at SA.

Better player then he is regarded publically but not as good as the hype which surrounded him in his early career, a lot like Spies.

This is definitely a wind up.

Sorry but Spies has never been as good as Heaslip at his best. Heaslip was nominated for World under 20 player of the year and IRB world player of the year. Spies' career never took off.

It would be interesting to get Darren Cave's thoughts on this thread ....

rodders wrote:It would be interesting to get Darren Cave's thoughts on this thread ....

Cave doesnt have the face for this thread.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think he is a lot like Pierre Spies in terms of talent. Is a top player but coaches choose him as much for his potential as they do his performances but has a tendency to go missing in matches.

Very good lineout option like Spies too at the back.

Like Spies he also plays amongst flash players who grab headlines such as O'Brien, Ferris etc at Ireland and Burger at SA.

Better player then he is regarded publically but not as good as the hype which surrounded him in his early career, a lot like Spies.

This is definitely a wind up.

Sorry but Spies has never been as good as Heaslip at his best. Heaslip was nominated for World under 20 player of the year and IRB world player of the year. Spies' career never took off.

I actually rate Spies a lot GG. He's a lot better then people take him for. He has been capped 53 times for the boks.... when they have either been 1st or 2nd in the world and he got those caps in SA's area of strength, the backrow.

53 caps for the boks is equivelent to 70-80 in most other major rugby nations.

When all the bulls players retired post RWC11 he stayed, captained the side and they did very well despite poor personnel. He's a top class player and when he returns from injury he will be in the mix... perhaps not starting but he will be the 2nd choice behind Vermeulen and it will be a tough fight for either to win.

I don't get why some people give him so much stick.
Before Toby took over for the last test (and he was very unlucky to be dropped), he was one of the stand out players for me. I would have kept him in the third test but Galtand went for Toby. But Heaslip was amazing and when on form gives his team the enthusiasm and go forward they need (just like the New Zealand game).
He does blow hot and cold but when he is hot he is a great addition to his team.

The comparison with Spies is very apt fa0019. He could be so good and that makes it so much more frustrating when he does go missing in games.

Notch wrote:The comparison with Spies is very apt fa0019. He could be so good and that makes it so much more frustrating when he does go missing in games.

I agree Notch. Spies in part because he appreciates open games.... test rugby is far tighter then even 1st class domestic rugby. Means their visible strengths are very much reduced. Not sure if its the same with Heaslip but he is quite a open play specialist from memory.

He seems to be trying to play like a breakdown specialist if anything... right now, we have lots of backrows who are good at contesting the breakdown (this has always been the case with Ireland) on opposition ball but not enough of our team is good enough at making the hard yards for us to have a decent continuity game. We always end up going nowhere and then kicking and its at least partly because we can't get gainline success on a consistent level. When your number 8 isn't a powerful carrier it limits your options a fair bit.

We need Heaslip to really up his carrying both in the loose and in the tight. If he's going to prove himself he needs to be an 8 playing at 8, not a 7.

Interesting how on the three ruck examples given - in each case he is illegally off his feet whilst still influencing the ruck. In none of these cases was he penalised. Poor misses by Owens.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Interesting how on the three ruck examples given - in each case he is illegally off his feet whilst still influencing the ruck. In none of these cases was he penalised. Poor misses by Owens.

You sure it wasn't the AB no.7 you mistook him for , or maybe Heaslip got the right balance of contesting while appearing to be legal...a great skill to have apparently

Just saying that's all. The writer is lauding his use of feet in the second ruck - but sorry, he's on the deck and that's illegal.

The first ruck is a case I was driven mad by the ought the AIs. He drives over Dagg and then goes off his feet and prevents the All Blacks from reaching Dagg. Should've been an All Blacks penalty.

Poor calls from Owens. Interesting how at first it appeared he'd had a good game.

So you've changed your mind GE?  Now the ABs easily won that game afterall had not Owens gotten in the way or had he rightfully blown the whistle on us?  Well, what could we expect.  The idea that Ireland might have won it could only last so long.  Two weeks is about right on the button.

Merely commenting on the evidence provided. Of course Ireland still played well and to the referee. Not taking away from that, merely saying. That's all.