Welsh Squad for Six Nations

by Jhamer25 Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:29 pm

Well we have to look forwards and upwards now. I see there is already an English thread for this matter, just thought it's time to start our own; after all its not too far away and will come around very quick.
Here is a great article:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/autumn-analysis-seven-key-areas-6359245
Apart form the front row bit they couldn't be more right

Taking into account that everyone is fit and available and looking forward I would go for the following:
(except for the player we already know are un-available: Bradley Davies, Johnathan Davies, Craig Mitchell, Jack Dixon, Cory Allen any others)
Obviously my chosen team will change as time goes on as people might come into form and out of of form but this is the team on current form. A squad of 36 (i'm going for a 16/15 split)

Props
Gethin Jenkins
Paul James
Rhys Gill
Adam Jones
Samson Lee

Hookers
Hibbard
Ken Owens

Locks
Luke Charteris
Alyn Wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Jake Ball

Flankers
Dan Lydiate
Justin Tipuric
Sam Warburton
Ryan Jones

Number 8
Toby Falateu

Scrum Half
Richie Rees
Rhodri Williams
Gareth Davies

Outside Half
Biggar
Priestland
Hook

Centers
Jamie Roberts
Scott Williams
Owen Williams
Ashley Beck

Wings
Liam Williams
Alex Cuthbert
Leigh Halfpenny
George North
Eli Walker

I really considered:
Lee Byrne instead of Eli Walker

Team to face Italy
1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Richard Hibbard
3. Adam Jones
4. Alyn Wyn Jones (C.)
5. Luke Charteris
6. Dan Lydiate
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Toby Falateu

9. Rhodri Williams
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Scott Williams (If John Davies is fit = 12. Scott Williams, 13. Johnathan Davies)
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

Ask questions by all means, this isn't the final team should be but a ruff idea of how i would like it to look at current events.
Gatland really needs to consider what is right now and stop being stubborn about his personal feelings with the players.

I am really interested to know other people's views, do you think I have made to many changes.

What would your team be?

by Norfolklass Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:53 pm

"Gatland really needs to consider what is right now and stop being stubborn about his personal feelings with the players."

In what way do you think he is stubborn etc?

by Jhamer25 Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:07 pm

Mainly because of his excuses in the aftermath.
Technically he blamed Wayne Barnes yesterday which is ridiculous, we have lost 9 consecutive time now with the same game plan; he needs to accept that his game plan will work vs the Northern hemisphere teams but clearly doesn't work vs the South Hemisphere teams; 4 time six nations winnner and just 1 win vs a SH team during his reign.
he is very stubborn when is come sot selection and players no matter what form they are in. I think Richie Rees has been the most consecutive and effective scrum half out of all the regions yet he isn't in the team; why because i know that Gatland isn't his biggest fan. Then there is the hook debate who really only has that flair that no other 10 we have has but isn't willing to give him a real test to prove himself. then there is Samson Lee who is clearly the more dominant scrummager and prop over Rhodri Jones, we needed to target the Australian scrum but he kept with Rhodri even though Samson has clearly been the in form prop at regional level.
Overall I think he is stubborn in his selection and game plan.

by maestegmafia Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:30 pm

Multiple injuries to specific positions have plagued Wales in the AIs over the last two years. Great for blooding lads like Rhodri, Cory and Owen but we are lacking experience at tighthead when we have four players unavailable.

So would anyone else. Had the opposition suffered the same issues Wales did injury wise last weekend they would have been in a much worse state than us.

It wasn't a bad autumn for Wales considering the teams we fielded.

I don't disagree with much said by Parfitt or posters above. But we are looking to win a third six nations in three years.

The opposition are all better teams than last year.

I agree that now is a good time to shake the squad up a bit. It worked very well for us prior to the last RWC, hopefully same again will breath some fresh air.

Players like Tipuric, Rhodri Williams Biggar, Priestland even Bevington, Lee and Owens need to spend the next few months trying to make their selection unarguable.

Time for a lot of lads, established and not, to stand up and prove they are worthy of playing in the shirt they want to wear.

by Scratch Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:34 pm

Gatland has become the Sacred Cow of Welsh rugby.

His exceptional performance at 6 Nations time has mean't he could take time off for the Lions. This was the first big mistake.

He has made NH dominance look easy. We swept to a RWC semi but did not beat a SH side to do it. When we did have the chance to get to the final we crumbled.

But it is this record keeping him in the job, he downplays the significance of the Autumn series because he has produced nothing whatsoever to justify him keeping his job. He is holding us back in world rugby.

He is the best coach in the NH, and creed the most successful side. That is no longer enough for us to accept and this golden generation may well never fulfill its potential.

His SH record is atrocious and no longer tolerable.

A bad 6 Nations could well see him under pressure. Another win will justify the feast and famine and keep us on the roller coaster.

right now i am not sure he is the man to take us on to competitiveness v SH and the RWC.

by flyhalffactory Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:46 pm

IMHO that is a poor newspaper article, regurgitated from other articles and when he insinuated that Faletau was close to being consistently at a very high level then I knew it this was not something that was going to be invigorating and mind provoking.

What you need is a coach that can see the wood for the trees.

Firstly Wales are now as fit and big and strong as all the other nations now, you can play for 80 minutes now where before you used to be like puffing billy goats....... so kudos to Gatland for highlighting that and solving that performance issue.

So now....... why don't you guys start concentrating on speed, acceleration, agility, ball skills, pushing players to think outside of the box not flushing every bit of originality out of them and replacing it with regimented gym monkey mentality and just too scared to play outside of the Plan:A.

Secondly Gatland has always said he would pick on form, well you guys were concentrating on the Tuperic v Warburton issue when Ryan Jones who has been pretty damn awesome (and in my opinion should have started ahead of Toby Faletau) didn't even get on the pitch even though Ian Evans was poor in all facets of the game.

You have to build your team around the spine of the team...... the 15-10-8-5-2 combo has to be consistent and in reality game changers. I would seriously look at giving the captaincy to AWJ, wrapping Charteris up in cotton wool, ensuring that Ryan Jones plays 8.

People like Patchell, Williams of Leicester, have to be exposed to International rugby without being forced into it only when someone else is injured as in the case of Owen Williams this AIs

I think the Welsh A team somehow should be resurrected

by maestegmafia Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:48 pm

Scratch wrote:Gatland has become the Sacred Cow of Welsh rugby.

His exceptional performance at 6 Nations time has mean't he could take time off for the Lions. This was the first big mistake.

He has made NH dominance look easy. We swept to a RWC semi but did not beat a SH side to do it. When we did have the chance to get to the final we crumbled.

But it is this record keeping him in the job, he downplays the significance of the Autumn series because he has produced nothing whatsoever to justify him keeping his job. He is holding us back in world rugby.

He is the best coach in the NH, and creed the most successful side. That is no longer enough for us to accept and this golden generation may well never fulfill its potential.

His SH record is atrocious and no longer tolerable.

A bad 6 Nations could well see him under pressure. Another win will justify the feast and famine and keep us on the roller coaster.

right now i am not sure he is the man to take us on to competitiveness v SH and the RWC.

I thought that you said we lack strength and depth, now you are calling this a golden generation?

We have a few world class players and a lot of good grafters. We have struggled against SH teams while missing many of our best players, two of our world class players.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:09 am

'Golden generation' is all relative. Get some perspective please.

by Scratch Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:24 am

We have struggled against SH teams period maesteg.

We beat teams that beat SH teams

We can't beat SH teams

We do lack strength in depth but we also have several world class players and at least 3 were playing at the weekend. The rest are not grafters. They have won repeated 6 Nations and we have more than enough talent to compete with the SH and only a serious systemic problem can account for our SH failure, by repeatedly losing games by very narrow margins.

That failure is masked by the 6 Nations domination

The failure is the players and the management, the buck stop with WG

Changes must be made. Not only is Gatland the Sacred Cow, he is also the White Elephant.

by maestegmafia Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:33 am

Scratch wrote:We have struggled against SH teams period maesteg.

We beat teams that beat SH teams

We can't beat SH teams

We do lack strength in depth but we also have several world class players and at least 3 were playing at the weekend. The rest are not grafters. They have won repeated 6 Nations and we have more than enough talent to compete with the SH and only a serious systemic problem can account for our SH failure, by repeatedly losing games by very narrow margins.

That failure is masked by the 6 Nations domination

The failure is the players and the management, the buck stop with WG

Changes must be made. Not only is Gatland the Sacred Cow, he is also the White Elephant.

Right what would you do?

Who will be your recommended coaching team and why?

Which players do you want out and which in and why will that make us beat the SH teams and win the RWC in 2015..?

Back up your points. You've got opinions let's hear them.

by Scratch Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:58 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Scratch wrote:We have struggled against SH teams period maesteg.

We beat teams that beat SH teams

We can't beat SH teams

We do lack strength in depth but we also have several world class players and at least 3 were playing at the weekend. The rest are not grafters. They have won repeated 6 Nations and we have more than enough talent to compete with the SH and only a serious systemic problem can account for our SH failure, by repeatedly losing games by very narrow margins.

That failure is masked by the 6 Nations domination

The failure is the players and the management, the buck stop with WG

Changes must be made. Not only is Gatland the Sacred Cow, he is also the White Elephant.
Right what would you do?

Who will be your recommended coaching team and why?

Which players do you want out and which in and why will that make us beat the SH teams and win the RWC in 2015..?

Back up your points. You've got opinions let's hear them.

Maesteg

I don't have to account for my opinions to you. They are just that, my opinions an di will express them as i choose. i think you think you have some sort of proprietary rights over Welsh threads, you don't and i see very little from you that suggests a better understanding of the issues we face than my own. Your attitude to Wales is so parochial it is unreal, if that attitude is suggestive of the average Welsh view then we are royally forked.

I have already explained ad infinitum why I think Gatland has reached the point at which his success as a 6 Nations coach can no longer disguise his abject and shocking failure to take that fabulous Championship team and WIN JUST ONCE V SH TEAMS since 2008 when i saw them beat Aus.

I have already stated I think Howley and perhaps even Edwards should now go. I have already said that if Gatland fails at the 6 Nations then we are going backwards and his position should come under serious scrutiny, as in that instance he is starting to take us backwards a year before an RWC.

I have also said Sam should be dropped as skipper. He is not leading us forward.

by maestegmafia Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:28 am

Scratch wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Scratch wrote:We have struggled against SH teams period maesteg.

We beat teams that beat SH teams

We can't beat SH teams

We do lack strength in depth but we also have several world class players and at least 3 were playing at the weekend. The rest are not grafters. They have won repeated 6 Nations and we have more than enough talent to compete with the SH and only a serious systemic problem can account for our SH failure, by repeatedly losing games by very narrow margins.

That failure is masked by the 6 Nations domination

The failure is the players and the management, the buck stop with WG

Changes must be made. Not only is Gatland the Sacred Cow, he is also the White Elephant.
Right what would you do?

Who will be your recommended coaching team and why?

Which players do you want out and which in and why will that make us beat the SH teams and win the RWC in 2015..?

Back up your points. You've got opinions let's hear them.
Maesteg

I don't have to account for my opinions to you. They are just that, my opinions an di will express them as i choose. i think you think you have some sort of proprietary rights over Welsh threads, you don't and i see very little from you that suggests a better understanding of the issues we face than my own. Your attitude to Wales is so parochial it is unreal, if that attitude is suggestive of the average Welsh view then we are royally forked.

I have already explained ad infinitum why I think Gatland has reached the point at which his success as a 6 Nations coach can no longer disguise his abject and shocking failure to take that fabulous Championship team and WIN JUST ONCE V SH TEAMS since 2008 when i saw them beat Aus.

I have already stated I think Howley and perhaps even Edwards should now go. I have already said that if Gatland fails at the 6 Nations then we are going backwards and his position should come under serious scrutiny, as in that instance he is starting to take us backwards a year before an RWC.

I have also said Sam should be dropped as skipper. He is not leading us forward.

I've read what you have written hear and elsewhere. That is why I asked where you think we should go forward...?

Tovey to flyhalf? Maybe Patchell? With Gareth Davies or Richie Rees?

Robbie Deans as backs coach? Maybe we convince Steve Hansen to come back. With all the money the WRU have from not bank rolling/bailing out the regions we could surely buy Hansen out of his NZRFU contract?

Retire off old Gethin, Adam, get Owens in, Baldwin is playing well. How about King or Screech?

There are loads of options on what we could do.

My views are far from parochial, most people I spoke to in Wales last weekend were all saying change this change that...

Very few had any ideas what to change to.

Very few people sighted injury as an issue but strength in depth definitely is one...?

Let's hear some ideas on how we change this for the better. Who, why and how we gonna do it???

by maestegmafia Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:31 am

Surely the purpose of this thread is to discuss some answers that might lead to positives for the future????

by Guest Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:50 pm

My squad, I think it goes without saying we need some depth in positions if we're building for the world cup.

Props
Gethin Jenkins
Paul James
Ryan Bevington
Adam Jones
Samson Lee

Hookers
Hibbard
Ken Owens
Emyr Phillips

Locks
Luke Charteris
Alyn Wyn Jones
Ian Evans
Bradley Davies

Flankers
Dan Lydiate
Justin Tipuric
Sam Warburton
Aaron Shingler

Number 8
Toby Falateu
Ryan Jones

Scrum Half
Rhodri Williams
Gareth Davies
Richie Rees

Outside Half
Biggar
Priestland
Hook
Patchell

Centers
Jamie Roberts
Scott Williams
Owen Williams
Ashley Beck
(Assuming Corey Allen is out)

Wings
Jordan Williams
Alex Cuthbert
George North
Eli Walker

Fullback
Leigh Halfpenny
Liam Williams

by maestegmafia Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:53 pm

Mike

The areas where we lack depth are number eight and scrumhalf. Maybe we should not be relying on lads like ryan Jones and Richie Rees but experimenting with lads like Morgan Allens, Ieuan Jones, Tom Habberfield, Jon Evans?

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:29 pm

I would expect the squad to look like (this is not the squad I would pick, not by a long chalk)

Props -: G Jenkins, P James, R Bevington, A Jones, C Mitchell, Rh Jones
Hookers -: R Hibbard, K Owens, E Phillips
Locks -: AW Jones, I Evans, B Davies, I Coombs
Backrow -: S Warburton (capt), D Lydiate, T Faletau, J Tipuric, R Jones
Scrum Half -: M Phillips, Ll Williams, Rh Wiliams
Fly Half -: D Biggar, R Priestland, J Hook
Centre -: J Roberts, S Williams, O Williams, A Beck/C Allen(fitness dependent)
Back Three -: G North, A Cuthbert, L Hafpenny, Li Williams, H Dirkson/E Walker (fitness dependent)

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:24 pm

I really don't want us to pick Dirksen.

by maestegmafia Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:31 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I really don't want us to pick Dirksen.

Great young player but he shouldn't play for Wales because he is not Welsh. He would be a huge asset to another nation he qualifies for like SA or USA. He would be a bonus for Wales but it doesn't sit right with me that he plays for Wales.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:35 pm

That's not why I don't want us to pick him. I just don't like him.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:42 pm

Gats claims he capped North and Cuthbert to stop them being available for anyone else, so Dirkson will be capped, like it or not. Personally I don't think he should be eligible he has played of the Eagles v Munster, also I don't overly rate him as a player, and think he is a very dirty player who tends to look to injure/harm players instead of playing the game properly (but that may be because of his clash with Sanjay last season, and I guess Sanjay is a bit dirty too).

Like I said that is not the squad I would have picked, Rhodri Jones will be there instead of Samson even though he will be stuck behind him regionally etc.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:44 pm

I dunno what Ryan Jones has to do to get picked. Thought he was great against Fiji, or was it Tonga? Meh all the pacific Island nations are the same.... Run

Backrow for Wales should consist of Jones, Tipuric and Faleteu, dunno how Lydiate keeps getting picked.

Hands down the most overrated player in the NH.

Whilst I'm at it, horse Phillips and let Hook play 10.

Do that and the 6N winners will be Wales IMO.

by Jhamer25 Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:45 pm

Look Ryan Jones is a great player but I don't think he should have replaced Toby, he has done nothing wrong and worked his ass off at game time. If anything he should have started at 6.
it's great though that we have a second choice options (in Gatlands eyes) Ryan Jones, Tipuric.

Scarlet Spiderman = Good teams but Craig Mitchell is too injury prone now and is out for another lengthy spell with shoulder injury.
Iron Mike = Bradley is set to return half way through the Six Nations I think, i think Luke needs his shot now though anyway at the Six Nations; he could be our answer to out line out problems (it isn't always Hibbards fault, I feel we are too predictable). If Jake Ball stays in form I would pick him ahead of Bradley because Brad won't have enough gametime under his belt.

Im changing Mike Phillips for Richie Rees, i can't believe i forgot him; it was only the other day were i was going on about how he is the inform scrum half and should be sour starting 9. Fool

Also this isn't the team i think will be picked, it's the team i will pick. Gatland will stick with his same old tricks because they do work vs the NH. I have looked for the future to start winning against the Big 3 and have a good chance of competing in the world Cup. Gatland needs to see the light and see that his current tactics against the big 3 aren't working.

by Jhamer25 Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:51 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Scratch wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Scratch wrote:We have struggled against SH teams period maesteg.

We beat teams that beat SH teams

We can't beat SH teams

We do lack strength in depth but we also have several world class players and at least 3 were playing at the weekend. The rest are not grafters. They have won repeated 6 Nations and we have more than enough talent to compete with the SH and only a serious systemic problem can account for our SH failure, by repeatedly losing games by very narrow margins.

That failure is masked by the 6 Nations domination

The failure is the players and the management, the buck stop with WG

Changes must be made. Not only is Gatland the Sacred Cow, he is also the White Elephant.
Right what would you do?

Who will be your recommended coaching team and why?

Which players do you want out and which in and why will that make us beat the SH teams and win the RWC in 2015..?

Back up your points. You've got opinions let's hear them.
Maesteg

I don't have to account for my opinions to you. They are just that, my opinions an di will express them as i choose. i think you think you have some sort of proprietary rights over Welsh threads, you don't and i see very little from you that suggests a better understanding of the issues we face than my own. Your attitude to Wales is so parochial it is unreal, if that attitude is suggestive of the average Welsh view then we are royally forked.

I have already explained ad infinitum why I think Gatland has reached the point at which his success as a 6 Nations coach can no longer disguise his abject and shocking failure to take that fabulous Championship team and WIN JUST ONCE V SH TEAMS since 2008 when i saw them beat Aus.

I have already stated I think Howley and perhaps even Edwards should now go. I have already said that if Gatland fails at the 6 Nations then we are going backwards and his position should come under serious scrutiny, as in that instance he is starting to take us backwards a year before an RWC.

I have also said Sam should be dropped as skipper. He is not leading us forward.
I've read what you have written hear and elsewhere. That is why I asked where you think we should go forward...?

Tovey to flyhalf? Maybe Patchell? With Gareth Davies or Richie Rees?

Robbie Deans as backs coach? Maybe we convince Steve Hansen to come back. With all the money the WRU have from not bank rolling/bailing out the regions we could surely buy Hansen out of his NZRFU contract?

Retire off old Gethin, Adam, get Owens in, Baldwin is playing well. How about King or Screech?

There are loads of options on what we could do.

My views are far from parochial, most people I spoke to in Wales last weekend were all saying change this change that...

Very few had any ideas what to change to.

Very few people sighted injury as an issue but strength in depth definitely is one...?

Let's hear some ideas on how we change this for the better. Who, why and how we gonna do it???

All true really.
However I still feel we need to keep the likes of Adam, Gethin and Ryan in the set up because tey are such great players. They won't last frorever and will get the old knock here and there. Therefore we need to start bringing some youn player behind htem.
For example, say if Gethin, Paul and Rhys Gill were fit. I would start Gethin with Rhys on the Bench. If Gethin got injured i would start Paul Jame with Gill on the bench. Not start with Gethin then Paul on the bench because a young player isn't going to get nothing from that. If Rhys came on both times and had 30 minutes, it will give him that desire and experience.

by Guest Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:02 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Mike

The areas where we lack depth are number eight and scrumhalf. Maybe we should not be relying on lads like ryan Jones and Richie Rees but experimenting with lads like Morgan Allens, Ieuan Jones, Tom Habberfield, Jon Evans?

Not Tom Habberfield or Jon Evans, I rate Gareth Davies and Richie Rees higher, they will both be around for the world cup, the former will have their chance in the future no doubt as they're both young.

by Casartelli Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

We have nobody waiting on the sidelines that would make the slightest difference for the 6 Nations.

Gatland only knows one way to coach - he isn't going to suddenly experiment with some champagne rugby. His is a game of attrition, in the hope that the opposition eventually crack (England last season in Cardiff, Aus in 3rd test against Lions etc.) It can work if Wales have all their best (i.e. biggest and strongest) players on the pitch (and we aren't playing NZ or SA). Thus;

Halfpenny, North, JD2, Roberts, Cuthbert, Biggar, Phillips, Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, A-WJ, one of the others, Adam, Fatrick and Gethin

could win the 6N again if all stay on the pitch for the majority of the 'gametime'. Tipuric, Scott Williams, Ryan (and Byrne and Hook?) could do a job if they had to briefly fill in at any point.

Beyond that - nothing. It's the harsh reality of Welsh rugby.

Is this enough? 6N competitiveness and not getting totally embarrassed against SA and Australia?

We've painted ourselves into a corner. Changing the coach and/or the gameplan now means another 2-3 or 5 seasons of rebuilding.

The rugby world doesn't wait for Wales to catch up. It progresses regardless. We do remarkably well at test level given the shambles of the union and the 'regions'. Maybe that's the best we're ever going to get. Just enjoy it?

by Jhamer25 Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:52 pm

But we are at a stage where we have the players to to better Casartelli, we havnt had that in nearly 40 years.

The title of best in the nothing isn't good enough now, we are capable of doing more, these small margins show that. I would take a win 1 win over south Africa than another Six Nations Championship now.

by Scratch Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:54 pm

Casartelli wrote:We have nobody waiting on the sidelines that would make the slightest difference for the 6 Nations.

Gatland only knows one way to coach - he isn't going to suddenly experiment with some champagne rugby. His is a game of attrition, in the hope that the opposition eventually crack (England last season in Cardiff, Aus in 3rd test against Lions etc.) It can work if Wales have all their best (i.e. biggest and strongest) players on the pitch (and we aren't playing NZ or SA). Thus;

Halfpenny, North, JD2, Roberts, Cuthbert, Biggar, Phillips, Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, A-WJ, one of the others, Adam, Fatrick and Gethin

could win the 6N again if all stay on the pitch for the majority of the 'gametime'. Tipuric, Scott Williams, Ryan (and Byrne and Hook?) could do a job if they had to briefly fill in at any point.

Beyond that - nothing. It's the harsh reality of Welsh rugby.

Is this enough? 6N competitiveness and not getting totally embarrassed against SA and Australia?

We've painted ourselves into a corner. Changing the coach and/or the gameplan now means another 2-3 or 5 seasons of rebuilding.

The rugby world doesn't wait for Wales to catch up. It progresses regardless. We do remarkably well at test level given the shambles of the union and the 'regions'. Maybe that's the best we're ever going to get. Just enjoy it?

God it's depressing but true, though what prevents me from accepting that we have shot our bolt and should settle for just being 6 Nations champs, is that if Scotland can beat Aus twice recently and i believe SA, if France can beat SA regularly until recently, ireland can beat SA and if England can beat NZ and Aus then why Wales, 9/10 in the last two 6 Nations, now defending a record 3rd title, cannot get one win in 5 years is beyond me!

That suggests a game plan issue not just a personnel issue and that is a management problem, not just a skill level problem. I accept that we have a very strong cadre of about 25 players which is insufficient, but we have to address that.

by Casartelli Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:03 pm

Jhamer25 wrote:But we are at a stage where we have the players to to better Casartelli, we havnt had that in nearly 40 years.

The title of best in the nothing isn't good enough now, we are capable of doing more, these small margins show that. I would take a win 1 win over south Africa than another Six Nations Championship now.

I concur.

by Casartelli Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:10 pm

Scratch wrote:
Casartelli wrote:We have nobody waiting on the sidelines that would make the slightest difference for the 6 Nations.

Gatland only knows one way to coach - he isn't going to suddenly experiment with some champagne rugby. His is a game of attrition, in the hope that the opposition eventually crack (England last season in Cardiff, Aus in 3rd test against Lions etc.) It can work if Wales have all their best (i.e. biggest and strongest) players on the pitch (and we aren't playing NZ or SA). Thus;

Halfpenny, North, JD2, Roberts, Cuthbert, Biggar, Phillips, Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, A-WJ, one of the others, Adam, Fatrick and Gethin

could win the 6N again if all stay on the pitch for the majority of the 'gametime'. Tipuric, Scott Williams, Ryan (and Byrne and Hook?) could do a job if they had to briefly fill in at any point.

Beyond that - nothing. It's the harsh reality of Welsh rugby.

Is this enough? 6N competitiveness and not getting totally embarrassed against SA and Australia?

We've painted ourselves into a corner. Changing the coach and/or the gameplan now means another 2-3 or 5 seasons of rebuilding.

The rugby world doesn't wait for Wales to catch up. It progresses regardless. We do remarkably well at test level given the shambles of the union and the 'regions'. Maybe that's the best we're ever going to get. Just enjoy it?
God it's depressing but true, though what prevents me from accepting that we have shot our bolt and should settle for just being 6 Nations champs, is that if Scotland can beat Aus twice recently and i believe SA, if France can beat SA regularly until recently, ireland can beat SA and if England can beat NZ and Aus then why Wales, 9/10 in the last two 6 Nations, now defending a record 3rd title, cannot get one win in 5 years is beyond me!

That suggests a game plan issue not just a personnel issue and that is a management problem, not just a skill level problem. I accept that we have a very strong cadre of about 25 players which is insufficient, but we have to address that.

Totally agree. Problem is, if Gatland, or a new coach, starts to evolve the gameplan, then that means it's 2 or 3 seasons of the players getting used to the changes.

By then we don't have Adam, Gethin, Mike P, Roberts(?), A-WJ(?), Hibbard etc providing experience and bulk. And the squad is wafer-thin behind them.

We're in a corner, and the paint is still very tacky.

by samuraidragon Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:43 pm

Scratch wrote:
Casartelli wrote:We have nobody waiting on the sidelines that would make the slightest difference for the 6 Nations.

Gatland only knows one way to coach - he isn't going to suddenly experiment with some champagne rugby. His is a game of attrition, in the hope that the opposition eventually crack (England last season in Cardiff, Aus in 3rd test against Lions etc.) It can work if Wales have all their best (i.e. biggest and strongest) players on the pitch (and we aren't playing NZ or SA). Thus;

Halfpenny, North, JD2, Roberts, Cuthbert, Biggar, Phillips, Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, A-WJ, one of the others, Adam, Fatrick and Gethin

could win the 6N again if all stay on the pitch for the majority of the 'gametime'. Tipuric, Scott Williams, Ryan (and Byrne and Hook?) could do a job if they had to briefly fill in at any point.

Beyond that - nothing. It's the harsh reality of Welsh rugby.

Is this enough? 6N competitiveness and not getting totally embarrassed against SA and Australia?

We've painted ourselves into a corner. Changing the coach and/or the gameplan now means another 2-3 or 5 seasons of rebuilding.

The rugby world doesn't wait for Wales to catch up. It progresses regardless. We do remarkably well at test level given the shambles of the union and the 'regions'. Maybe that's the best we're ever going to get. Just enjoy it?
God it's depressing but true, though what prevents me from accepting that we have shot our bolt and should settle for just being 6 Nations champs, is that if Scotland can beat Aus twice recently and i believe SA, if France can beat SA regularly until recently, ireland can beat SA and if England can beat NZ and Aus then why Wales, 9/10 in the last two 6 Nations, now defending a record 3rd title, cannot get one win in 5 years is beyond me!

That suggests a game plan issue not just a personnel issue and that is a management problem, not just a skill level problem. I accept that we have a very strong cadre of about 25 players which is insufficient, but we have to address that.

This is quite true. We ought to win SOME of these matches, especially at home, instead of losing 18/19 or whatever the number is. No offence to Scotland, but we are better than them by a substantial margin. How come they can do it and we can't?

by bedfordwelsh Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:07 pm

If people are talking about Gatland going because he's taken us as far as he can etc etc then that's their choice its a forum for opinions after all.

However IMO if that was to be the case he would have to go now not after the 6 Nations and give whoever we brought in almost 2 seasons in charge.

For what it's worth I don't think he should go but I have in the past questioned Howley and I am still not convinced by him or McBryde.

by Scratch Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:41 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:If people are talking about Gatland going because he's taken us as far as he can etc etc then that's their choice its a forum for opinions after all.

However IMO if that was to be the case he would have to go now not after the 6 Nations and give whoever we brought in almost 2 seasons in charge.

For what it's worth I don't think he should go but I have in the past questioned Howley and I am still not convinced by him or McBryde.

Do you think he can take us any further?

by bedfordwelsh Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:29 pm

I think he needs bit more help or better people with him but yeah, when you think of some of the mistakes on Saturday who would get more (mentally) out of the players, would any different coach make Hibbard throw straight etc etc.

by glamorganalun Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:52 pm

samuraidragon wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Casartelli wrote:We have nobody waiting on the sidelines that would make the slightest difference for the 6 Nations.

Gatland only knows one way to coach - he isn't going to suddenly experiment with some champagne rugby. His is a game of attrition, in the hope that the opposition eventually crack (England last season in Cardiff, Aus in 3rd test against Lions etc.) It can work if Wales have all their best (i.e. biggest and strongest) players on the pitch (and we aren't playing NZ or SA). Thus;

Halfpenny, North, JD2, Roberts, Cuthbert, Biggar, Phillips, Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, A-WJ, one of the others, Adam, Fatrick and Gethin

could win the 6N again if all stay on the pitch for the majority of the 'gametime'. Tipuric, Scott Williams, Ryan (and Byrne and Hook?) could do a job if they had to briefly fill in at any point.

Beyond that - nothing. It's the harsh reality of Welsh rugby.

Is this enough? 6N competitiveness and not getting totally embarrassed against SA and Australia?

We've painted ourselves into a corner. Changing the coach and/or the gameplan now means another 2-3 or 5 seasons of rebuilding.

The rugby world doesn't wait for Wales to catch up. It progresses regardless. We do remarkably well at test level given the shambles of the union and the 'regions'. Maybe that's the best we're ever going to get. Just enjoy it?
God it's depressing but true, though what prevents me from accepting that we have shot our bolt and should settle for just being 6 Nations champs, is that if Scotland can beat Aus twice recently and i believe SA, if France can beat SA regularly until recently, ireland can beat SA and if England can beat NZ and Aus then why Wales, 9/10 in the last two 6 Nations, now defending a record 3rd title, cannot get one win in 5 years is beyond me!

That suggests a game plan issue not just a personnel issue and that is a management problem, not just a skill level problem. I accept that we have a very strong cadre of about 25 players which is insufficient, but we have to address that.
This is quite true. We ought to win SOME of these matches, especially at home, instead of losing 18/19 or whatever the number is. No offence to Scotland, but we are better than them by a substantial margin. How come they can do it and we can't?

They get the weather to suit them i.e., hissing down and playing in a gale and the opposition under estimate them like they used to against Wales 5 years ago.

by glamorganalun Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:54 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think he needs bit more help or better people with him but yeah, when you think of some of the mistakes on Saturday who would get more (mentally) out of the players, would any different coach make Hibbard throw straight etc etc.

True, Mc Bryde could not hit a barn door also a decent attack coach would not go amiss.

by Guest Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:33 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I dunno what Ryan Jones has to do to get picked. Thought he was great against Fiji, or was it Tonga? Meh all the pacific Island nations are the same....

Backrow for Wales should consist of Jones, Tipuric and Faleteu, dunno how Lydiate keeps getting picked.

Hands down the most overrated player in the NH.

Whilst I'm at it, horse Phillips and let Hook play 10.

Do that and the 6N winners will be Wales IMO.

Jones was lucky to have made the squad in the first instance, as he's been injured a fair bit this season and also got embarrassed at 6 v Northampton when Manoa ghosted past him from the back of a scrum. I do think Lydiate and Warburton should be rested for a while though, but can't see cement head doing that. I believe there's enough form players about in Wales that deserved a look in over Jones, Lydiate and Warburton (I can name two from the Dragons who aren't capped and have shown more this season, as an example).

by maestegmafia Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:18 am

Risca Rev wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I dunno what Ryan Jones has to do to get picked. Thought he was great against Fiji, or was it Tonga? Meh all the pacific Island nations are the same....

Backrow for Wales should consist of Jones, Tipuric and Faleteu, dunno how Lydiate keeps getting picked.

Hands down the most overrated player in the NH.

Whilst I'm at it, horse Phillips and let Hook play 10.

Do that and the 6N winners will be Wales IMO.
Jones was lucky to have made the squad in the first instance, as he's been injured a fair bit this season and also got embarrassed at 6 v Northampton when Manoa ghosted past him from the back of a scrum. I do think Lydiate and Warburton should be rested for a while though, but can't see cement head doing that. I believe there's enough form players about in Wales that deserved a look in over Jones, Lydiate and Warburton (I can name two from the Dragons who aren't capped and have shown more this season, as an example).

Which un capped Dragons do you think should be in ahead of Warburton, Lydiate and Ryan?

by irnbrew Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:59 am

To step up to international level from playing for the Dragons is a massive one .Gatland picks Lyds because he never lets him down. Ashly-Cooper said of Lyds that the Aussie coach,s have a great respect for Lyds and they are told if options available we don,t go down Lyds channel after the Lions game.and the reason Toby puts more tackles in than Lyds is that in both games Toby played 20 minutes longer in both games and Lyds still put in more tackles than Warby in both not rocket science just facts

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:10 am

irnbrew wrote:To step up to international level from playing for the Dragons is a massive one .Gatland picks Lyds because he never lets him down. Ashly-Cooper said of Lyds that the Aussie coach,s have a great respect for Lyds and they are told if options available we don,t go down Lyds channel after the Lions game.and the reason Toby puts more tackles in than Lyds is that in both games Toby played 20 minutes longer in both games and Lyds still put in more tackles than Warby in both not rocket science just facts

It's also a fact that the guy is as much use as a jelly pick axe with the ball in hand though. Sure he can tackle but a proper blindside needs to be able to do more than that. His tackling game is strong and it's good that he creates a sense of apprehension when opposing teams try to move down the blind side.

However his lack of carrying game is a struggle for Wales, particularly when some of your other carriers don't have a good game.

by irnbrew Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:57 am

I will repeat it Gats picks Lyds because he does what Gats wants him to do and never lets him down and to say that if the Wales ball carriers don,t do there job is some how reflect badly on Lyds well obviously you expect a lot from your 6 so name a few 6s from Wales who can do this all round work that can tackle as well as Lyds and carry like toby i,m sure Gats would love to know who they are

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:03 am

Welsh 6 Options -:

Lydiate - Solid tackling, breakdown work
Warbs - Breakdown work, athletic running
Coombs - Solid tackling, dog
Shingler - Athletic running, lineout expert
Turnbull - Solid tackling, breakdown work
McCusker - Solid tackling, dog
L Evans - Solid tackling, dog
Petorious - Ball carrying
R Jones - backrow swiss-army knife (good at everything, doesn't come top welsh backrower at anything)

So probably, depending on the other backrow choices, Lydiate is the best there is.

by cooler king Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:17 am

After watching the Wales v Aussie game it came pretty apparent that while we have a solid pack and great ball carriers in Wales we don't have the strike runners that Australia & NZ have. That is the fundamental difference. Our style of play is more comparable to NZ & OZ but they have a few individuals that can turn a game on its head and score tries. So losing to Australia doesn't require any coach sacking or massive game plan changes. We just need to try out a couple more player combinations that give us potential game changers and find our balance. North can't do it on his own...

A couple of options to mull over and maybe allow a few senior players recovering from injury to rest this 6 nations:

Front row and second rows pick them selves but I would give Rhodri Jones more game time at 3 as Adam is creaking.

6 Warbs ©
7 Tips (game changer)
8 Falatau
9 Rhodri Williams (quick service & sniping runner)
10 Priestland (great distributor)
11 Eli Walker (finisher)
12 Cory Allen (good footballer, better hands than JR & SW & try scorer)
13 North (game changer)
14 Cuthbert (finisher)
15 Jordan Williams (game changer like Christian Cullen)

by Guest Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:39 am

Do you think Steve Shingler or Owen Williams at the Tigers are bolters for the squad at flyhalf? Or have we decided that the holy trinity of Biggar, Hook and Priestland will suffice for the world cup?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:42 am

I'd like to think Jason Tovey hasn't been written off.

by cooler king Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:55 am

Still not convinced by shingler and I haven't seen enough of owen wiliams this season. I think Preistland, Biggar & Hook are 3 very solid options as long as they get quicker ball from the breakdown and the former 2 have a creative inside centre to play along side.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:57 am

I'm not sure 'solid' is a word I'd use to describe either Hook or Priestland.

by chris_501 Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:02 pm

IronMike wrote:Do you think Steve Shingler or Owen Williams at the Tigers are bolters for the squad at flyhalf? Or have we decided that the holy trinity of Biggar, Hook and Priestland will suffice for the world cup?

I like the thought of Shingler at 12, but is his defensive game good enough?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:27 pm

We need to decide what we want from our fly halves. We have Biggar, Patchell, Owen Williams and Sam Davies who are all sensible calm headed type of fly half. But then we have Priestland, Hook, Tovey and Matthew Morgan who are all off the cuff gamblers, who can either win or lose you the game at the drop of at hat.

by Casartelli Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:42 pm

[quote="ScarletSpiderman"]We need to decide what we want from our fly halves. We have Biggar, Patchell, Owen Williams and Sam Davies who are all sensible calm headed type of fly half. But then we have Priestland, Hook, Tovey and Matthew Morgan who are all off the cuff gamblers, who can either win or lose you the game at the drop of at hat.[/quote]SS, do you genuinely see much of a difference between Priestland and Biggar at test level? (I appreciate in regional games they get more time & space to 'express themselves' and might show their own style etc).

In Wales games, aside from the kicking, I think the two are virtually indistinguishable.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:53 pm

Cas - I agree their games are indistinguishable, Biggar is very solid and puts it all on the line. But he is robotic, and lacks imagination. And Rhys is boarderline suicidal at times with his decision making, high risk high gain stuff, but lacks the calm headedness that is needed. With those two, on starting one on the bench I think we have the right combination. We can either bring on a risk taker to win us the game, or bring on a clam level headed player to kill the game off.

I think it is horses for courses, and that isn't my one eye before you say it. Also I do think that Matthew Morgan could possibly take Hooks place in the squad soon, as he is a real gambler.

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