New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Key dates coming up:

WRU RRW meeting wednesday. need to sign a new participation agreement by end Dec or its principality rugby meltdown
LNR club owners need to approve FFR-LNR "Convention" from their side dec 19th

any more to add to the calendar?

PRL appear to be out so not expecting anything from them.

When do the format, etc info about 2014-15 HC get agreed/announced?

Thought I had read somewhere that RFU are asking the other 5 Unions to meet on Tuesday? Also think FFR and LNR have signed agreement, but just waiting until the AGM to announce it?

TJ wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Key dates coming up:

WRU RRW meeting wednesday. need to sign a new participation agreement by end Dec or its principality rugby meltdown
LNR club owners need to approve FFR-LNR "Convention" from their side dec 19th

any more to add to the calendar?

PRL appear to be out so not expecting anything from them.

When do the format, etc info about 2014-15 HC get agreed/announced?

Thought I had read somewhere that RFU are asking the other 5 Unions to meet on Tuesday? Also think FFR and LNR have signed agreement, but just waiting until the AGM to announce it?

I think so - but its clear the english have been given a take it or leave it option and chose to leave it.  What more is to negotiate about?

Sin é wrote:RFU want to talk to other Unions again.

Someone saying that apparently the Celts & Italians were prepared to go with McCaff's cup, but the FFR were having none of it.

HammerofThunor wrote:There was a Guardian article saying he wanted to try and salvage a 6 country competition but there was no substance to any of it. Not a single quote from Richie. Nothing about proposed meetings Nothing really.

I seem to remember in one of quinsforever's translated articles that the agreement would be made (has been now) but wouldn't be formally announced until it have been ratified by whoever needs to do that (20th Dec was the date I think).

Christmas is coming up.

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There was a Guardian article saying he wanted to try and salvage a 6 country competition but there was no substance to any of it. Not a single quote from Richie. Nothing about proposed meetings Nothing really.

I seem to remember in one of quinsforever's translated articles that the agreement would be made (has been now) but wouldn't be formally announced until it have been ratified by whoever needs to do that (20th Dec was the date I think).

Christmas is coming up.

Yes, that's pretty much what I had read on the FFR agreement with LNR. I read the Richie article on here, but think I read on one of the Welsh regions forums about a Tuesday meeting. Makes sense that it stems from the Guardian. Same article spouting complete nonsense as to why Court, and Afoa are leaving for English clubs. It's that kind of reporting that discredits Rees as a credible sports journalist.

nathan wrote:

TJ wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Key dates coming up:

WRU RRW meeting wednesday. need to sign a new participation agreement by end Dec or its principality rugby meltdown
LNR club owners need to approve FFR-LNR "Convention" from their side dec 19th

any more to add to the calendar?

PRL appear to be out so not expecting anything from them.

When do the format, etc info about 2014-15 HC get agreed/announced?

Thought I had read somewhere that RFU are asking the other 5 Unions to meet on Tuesday? Also think FFR and LNR have signed agreement, but just waiting until the AGM to announce it?

I think so - but its clear the english have been given a take it or leave it option and chose to leave it.  What more is to negotiate about?

Lets be honest TJ, nothing in this whole mess is "clear".

TJ wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Key dates coming up:

WRU RRW meeting wednesday. need to sign a new participation agreement by end Dec or its principality rugby meltdown
LNR club owners need to approve FFR-LNR "Convention" from their side dec 19th

any more to add to the calendar?

PRL appear to be out so not expecting anything from them.

When do the format, etc info about 2014-15 HC get agreed/announced?

Thought I had read somewhere that RFU are asking the other 5 Unions to meet on Tuesday? Also think FFR and LNR have signed agreement, but just waiting until the AGM to announce it?

I think so - but its clear the english have been given a take it or leave it option and chose to leave it.  What more is to negotiate about?

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Key dates coming up:

WRU RRW meeting wednesday. need to sign a new participation agreement by end Dec or its principality rugby meltdown
LNR club owners need to approve FFR-LNR "Convention" from their side dec 19th

any more to add to the calendar?

PRL appear to be out so not expecting anything from them.

When do the format, etc info about 2014-15 HC get agreed/announced?

Thought I had read somewhere that RFU are asking the other 5 Unions to meet on Tuesday? Also think FFR and LNR have signed agreement, but just waiting until the AGM to announce it?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There was a Guardian article saying he wanted to try and salvage a 6 country competition but there was no substance to any of it. Not a single quote from Richie. Nothing about proposed meetings Nothing really.

I seem to remember in one of quinsforever's translated articles that the agreement would be made (has been now) but wouldn't be formally announced until it have been ratified by whoever needs to do that (20th Dec was the date I think).

Christmas is coming up.

Yes, that's pretty much what I had read on the FFR agreement with LNR. I read the Richie article on here, but think I read on one of the Welsh regions forums about a Tuesday meeting. Makes sense that it stems from the Guardian. Same article spouting complete nonsense as to why Court, and Afoa are leaving for English clubs. It's that kind of reporting that discredits Rees as a credible sports journalist.

I know. You can't trust anything they print  

Sin é wrote:RFU want to talk to other Unions again.

Someone saying that apparently the Celts & Italians were prepared to go with McCaff's cup, but the FFR were having none of it.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Key dates coming up:

WRU RRW meeting wednesday. need to sign a new participation agreement by end Dec or its principality rugby meltdown
LNR club owners need to approve FFR-LNR "Convention" from their side dec 19th

any more to add to the calendar?

PRL appear to be out so not expecting anything from them.

When do the format, etc info about 2014-15 HC get agreed/announced?

Thought I had read somewhere that RFU are asking the other 5 Unions to meet on Tuesday? Also think FFR and LNR have signed agreement, but just waiting until the AGM to announce it?

didnt know about that tues mtg. assume ritchie is organising.

FFR have confirmed the ffr-lnr deal at their "comite general". LNR general assumbly dont meet til dec 19th, so they wont have ratified if from their side til then. seems extremely unlikely they wont do so.

Sin é wrote:RFU want to talk to other Unions again.

Someone saying that apparently the Celts & Italians were prepared to go with McCaff's cup, but the FFR were having none of it.

HammerofThunor wrote:Although, if (and it's a big if) the FFR were the only ones against it (probably because of power struggles with the LNR) AND they've got what they wanted with this new EPS-type deal...perhaps things would move forward?

Or is that the my glass-is-a-quarter-full optimism coming out?

French vision for European rugby will give pathway for progression

France want the creation of a Uefa-style body that will ultimately lead to a second tier Six Nations


So, the English Premiership went into a Euro rugby battle with the French as their only allies; I guess nobody in their strategic command does history then.

Gleeful crowing from non-English rugby participants and fans within European Club Rugby has accompanied what they have presented as a volte face by the French clubs who, they say, have turned their back on a proposed Rugby Champions Cup and warmly returned to the ERC fold. The lazy and reflexive use of the pre-fix arrogant has accompanied the word English in nearly every Celtic article on this matter.

Actually the French have made a far more provocative claim for their stance openly admitting that it is merely the precursor for plans to overhaul the way club rugby is run in Europe.

The French Federation de Rugby (FFR) and its clubs have been rowing for years about control of the clubs, with the former resorting to using an ancient French law to purloin the latters’ vote in ERC matters.

What has not been given much notice is that the FFR has, for many years, had close links with Fira, the body which represents the smaller nations of European rugby.

This is evidenced by the fact that in the seventies and eighties France alone annually played Romania, then the leading minor international European team.

Fira has long complained, with good reason, that the Six Nations is a closed shop, as are the club tournaments that underpin it.

Paul Goze, president of the Ligue Nationale de Rugby, the body made up of the clubs in the top two divisions in France, has said that the French want a Uefa-style body, based in Geneva, to run European club rugby and remove the elitist approach of the Six Nations Committee.

It is on this basis that the French have said they will play one more year in the Heineken Cup.

The choice of Switzerland as opposed to Dublin is not just for tax reasons; it is to remove the physical proximity of European club rugby from the International Rugby Board and the Six Nations Committee (both based in Dublin) and especially the Irish influence about which the French and English have complained for many years.

The Irish, especially their tame media, hysterically denounce any move away from this convenient arrangement as greedy, knowing full well that their influence will dissipate if this geographical link is severed.

What is most appealing about the French vision is that it will include a determined pathway for other Unions and their clubs to progress up the ladder.

Moreover, and this is what many of the Six Nations Committee fear, it will make the creation of a second tier Six Nations inevitable.

The monetary and playing strength of Unions like Russia should not be underestimated and in a competent, democratic structure they should not be feared either. Alas, we do not live in such an egalitarian rugby world.

European rugby needs all its Unions and clubs, including the English, in its competitions and a clearly mapped progression route like football.

So, the English have played their hand and appear to have lost. The English game cannot go for long without a meaningful step between domestic and international rugby and if Premiership rugby Chief Mark McCafferty does not have a plan B the English have planned and executed their strategy badly.

They have a pot of BT money but no apparent way of properly exploiting it.

That said; Sky will not be happy that the English market, which is by far their largest subscriber base, will be hit by no English presence in their key club rugby product.

The English Premiership should not be held solely culpable for the present unsatisfactory situation. A competent governing body would not have allowed this to happen.

The changes to qualification and monetary distribution offered by the Unions through ERC only came because of the English and French clubs giving proper notice under the previous tournament agreement.

To pretend otherwise, as the Celtic Unions are now doing, is simply dishonest.

They could and should have been offered earlier and had they been we probably wouldn’t be in this unholy mess.

Goze has said that in future the Heineken Cup would be run commercially by the leagues, by which he means the clubs and that “If the unions do not concede that, there will be no competition.”

This should be read in conjunction with the opaque tag-on paragraph which was in the statement from Dublin last month that “The common aim is to move eventually towards the integration of European competitions within an all-encompassing European rugby framework.”

What the hell that means is anybody’s guess but anyone who views the present dispute without understanding this background, and the desire of the cosy elite to remain cosy, is naive.

ulster_on_the_up wrote:I don't buy into this whole influence by proximity thing.

What if the Swiss have a go at pro rugby - where do we move it to then?

To be fair Switzerland is a great choice as a neutral venue......

Hang on, isn't that the country that borders France, and isn't Geneva that city that lies in the FRENCH cultural region of Switzerland  

TJ wrote:The telegraph article starts with a racist slur and is obviously from a prl mouthpiece.  

Disgraceful

ulster_on_the_up wrote:I don't buy into this whole influence by proximity thing.

What if the Swiss have a go at pro rugby - where do we move it to then?

To be fair Switzerland is a great choice as a neutral venue......

Hang on, isn't that the country that borders France, and isn't Geneva that city that lies in the FRENCH cultural region of Switzerland  

whocares wrote:

ulster_on_the_up wrote:I don't buy into this whole influence by proximity thing.

What if the Swiss have a go at pro rugby - where do we move it to then?

To be fair Switzerland is a great choice as a neutral venue......

Hang on, isn't that the country that borders France, and isn't Geneva that city that lies in the FRENCH cultural region of Switzerland  

 
ha, very funny, keep on the good work. love it when the the "holier than thou" Anglo Celt brigade gets offended by the possibility of moving the european competition HQ from their zone of influence   I couldnt give a flying f*** about the location as long as the organisation sole role is to look after the interest of the competition and not get influenced by the local neighbouring unions.
 
you can move it to Zurich or Vladivostok if that makes you day, Geneva is actually further away from Paris than London.

maestegmafia wrote:

whocares wrote:

ulster_on_the_up wrote:I don't buy into this whole influence by proximity thing.

What if the Swiss have a go at pro rugby - where do we move it to then?

To be fair Switzerland is a great choice as a neutral venue......

Hang on, isn't that the country that borders France, and isn't Geneva that city that lies in the FRENCH cultural region of Switzerland  

 
ha, very funny, keep on the good work. love it when the the "holier than thou" Anglo Celt brigade gets offended by the possibility of moving the european competition HQ from their zone of influence   I couldnt give a flying f*** about the location as long as the organisation sole role is to look after the interest of the competition and not get influenced by the local neighbouring unions.
 
you can move it to Zurich or Vladivostok if that makes you day, Geneva is actually further away from Paris than London.

Paris is almost half way between London and Geneva.

ulster_on_the_up wrote:To clarify, I don't think it particularly matters where it is based as I can't believe it has any bearing on how the organisation is run.

I just think it cheeky that the French think that location does have an effect on governance so decide to put it somewhere where the assumed effect would benefit them.  

whocares wrote:I get your point but there is nothing cheeky in the french position : they see switzerland as a real neutral location while dublin isnt neutral enough for them for the ERC to "evolve" from its current boundary (whatever that means).  proximity should not be minimised, there is a lot of lobbying going on in those circles and the french have always felt mistreated in the past ... although I agree that there is no evidence of such collusion to happen regularly and the above mentionned article sometimes borders on libel.

whocares wrote:I get your point but there is nothing cheeky in the french position : they see switzerland as a real neutral location while dublin isnt neutral enough for them for the ERC to "evolve" from its current boundary (whatever that means).  proximity should not be minimised, there is a lot of lobbying going on in those circles and the french have always felt mistreated in the past ... although I agree that there is no evidence of such collusion to happen regularly and the above mentionned article sometimes borders on libel.

quinsforever wrote:funny article. certainly no more one-eyed than neil Francis or Gerry Thornley's regular missives to be fair, albeit with a different eye.

if there is no advantage to ireland, the irfu or irish club rugby of having the ERC in Dublin, then why does anyone care? france aren't requesting it be moved to France.

if the transition will be to a UEFA style tournament then it is pretty certain that the supervisory body will be moved away from any of the 6N countries. being in the same building as the 6N organisation obviously is not conducive to a "grow-the-game-beyond-the-6N" mentality, which is clearly a founding principle of FIRA-AER.

if that is the price of getting everyone back in a proper european competition then who would resist?

Recwatcher wrote:My suggestion would be to install FIRA in Dublin and then sit back and watch what happens.......

The eventual war hasn't even got going yet!

broadlandboy wrote:Sin é if they were so willing to compromise all along how come it took PRL/LNR giving notice,18 months passing & the prospect of a rival competition before they did?

broadlandboy wrote:Sin é if they were so willing to compromise all along how come it took PRL/LNR giving notice,18 months passing & the prospect of a rival competition before they did?