New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

although, now that the ffr lnr deal is done, there is a chance that camou may be more flexible that he was just a week ago.   

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:From what I read (mole posting on Munsterfans), he is appealing to other unions to help sort it out. Also, that its the FFR that are really sticking their heels in.

Interesting as well, Richie says he knew nothing about the BT deal that the PRL signed until after the event.

that backs up the much rubbished statement from McCafferty that the other unions were all basically on board apart from one - and that one was and apparently still is clearly Camou.

It was rubbish - the 4 rabo unions where blackmailed into compromising as far as they could - reluctantly.  Went a long way and further than I thought they should - but clearly that was not enough for McCaffrrey.   Only some (but not all) of the welsh and French teams were on board  No other union.
Just because the others were not shouting their disquiet loudly does not mean they were on board.

Edit - and if they were on board facing down the FFR would have been easy if it was 5 unions V the french

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tit89ofCOt4

If only one Union was against PRLs proposals...why were RFU not invited to the last meeting?
Who didn't invite them?
Which Union or Unions didn't ask them?
Why?
Why does Ritchie increasingly sound like Mccafferty in saying "only a few more things need to be sorted out quickly and everything will be fine, the PRl proposal will go ahead" in the face of nothing being sorted and nobody of any real note talking to each other - Not RFU to the other Unions, not PRL to any of the Unions, none of the Unions to any of the individual AP clubs. Nobody is talking and the RFU issue a statement that things can be saved?
Where is Ritchie picking up those hints?
Or is he giving those 'hints' to again muddy the waters of certainty amongst the other Unions?

Ritchie is still desperately trying to broker a deal for a 6N european cup next year. Hope he does so but if the thinks the rest are going to make any more significant moves he is wrong.

mystiroakey wrote:so all the issues bar the actual 3 issues were resolved.

  

Indeed!    

SecretFly wrote:If only one Union was against PRLs proposals...why were RFU not invited to the last meeting?  
Who didn't invite them?  
Which Union or Unions didn't ask them?  
Why?  
Why does Ritchie increasingly sound like Mccafferty in saying "only a few more things need to be sorted out quickly and everything will be fine, the PRl proposal will go ahead" in the face of nothing being sorted and nobody of any real note talking to each other - Not RFU to the other Unions, not PRL to any of the Unions, none of the Unions to any of the individual AP clubs.  Nobody is talking and the RFU issue a statement that things can be saved?  
Where is Ritchie picking up those hints?  
Or is he giving those 'hints' to again muddy the waters of certainty amongst the other Unions?

i thought that was your stylistic modus operandi

Hearing rumour it was French insistance that eRFU were not invited to the Dublin meeting

These are murky waters

"stylistic modus operandi"

  

Dudes and there big words

I only muddy the waters for the those with bad eyesight in the first place, quins  

And my apologies to those guys if anything I've said has made them trip over their own words.  Not ever my intention to make people's own words trip up their very arguments......     

I'm nice, me - I wouldn't be into any of that diviltry..................................................

geoff998rugby wrote:Hearing rumour it was French insistance that eRFU were not invited to the Dublin meeting

These are murky waters

From an RFU source?

nah, it was on 606 somewhere so must be true

Them bloody Irish, Italian, Scottish and Welsh slaves.  First they do everything PRL want of them (and more) then they go and do everything the FFR command them to do.

What a bunch of meek nitwits!  Disband the Celts completely, I say.  They're much too weak to even make their own decisions.  

Or so the inference of FFR control is meant to go?

Rumour now is that Quins, Leicester, Saints and Saracens want to join the Pro12.

I'm open to the possibility...but I do hope the PRL don't try to force them to stay in AP now against their will!

Source: unknown journalist secretly camped with Exeter Chiefs as Masseu................... OOP!  I've killed his cover.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:From what I read (mole posting on Munsterfans), he is appealing to other unions to help sort it out. Also, that its the FFR that are really sticking their heels in.

Interesting as well, Richie says he knew nothing about the BT deal that the PRL signed until after the event.

But he's suggesting the Unions should still help PRL out of their own mess and help them honour their rash BT deal by giving in to all their demands?  

This Ian Richie guy...I'll say it again - he negotiates with the panache of the little black guy in Bad Santa.  He really does always remind me of him when these comments come out.

The PRL are in a fix, they can't get out of the BT deal; so the Unions should take pity on them, walk away from their own Sky deal, give in to the structural demands of PRL, give over full control of the HEC to the PRL and all for the betterment of rugby and the saving of McCafferty's bacon?

The BT deal wasn't rash. It may have been a calculated risk, but without it no change would have happened at all. The BT deal was a demonstration that a) it was possible to improve on the existing commercials and b) the PRL were committed to change. It is still a risk but they are gambling that "Europe" needs them more than they need Europe, and that they can live on the BT domestic money (which they say they can) until that point. We will only know if they're in a fix in a year or so's time.

I have been saying for along time that the key to this is the struggle between the FFR and LNR. It seems that, if anything, I may have understated its importance.

quinsforever wrote:nah, it was on 606 somewhere so must be true

Fairly sure I read some French article which reported that Camou was very angry with the RFU, and calling them traitors, allegedly, or something along those lines anyway.

If the rumours coming out are true about 'only three points to resolve' it will be farcical. Not that it isn't already.

Poorfour wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:From what I read (mole posting on Munsterfans), he is appealing to other unions to help sort it out. Also, that its the FFR that are really sticking their heels in.

Interesting as well, Richie says he knew nothing about the BT deal that the PRL signed until after the event.

But he's suggesting the Unions should still help PRL out of their own mess and help them honour their rash BT deal by giving in to all their demands?  

This Ian Richie guy...I'll say it again - he negotiates with the panache of the little black guy in Bad Santa.  He really does always remind me of him when these comments come out.

The PRL are in a fix, they can't get out of the BT deal; so the Unions should take pity on them, walk away from their own Sky deal, give in to the structural demands of PRL, give over full control of the HEC to the PRL and all for the betterment of rugby and the saving of McCafferty's bacon?

The BT deal wasn't rash. It may have been a calculated risk, but without it no change would have happened at all. The BT deal was a demonstration that a) it was possible to improve on the existing commercials and b) the PRL were committed to change. It is still a risk but they are gambling that "Europe" needs them more than they need Europe, and that they can live on the BT domestic money (which they say they can) until that point. We will only know if they're in a fix in a year or so's time.

I have been saying for along time that the key to this is the struggle between the FFR and LNR. It seems that, if anything, I may have understated its importance.

No one except the RFU were allowed see what the deal was. You expect everyone to sign up to a pig in a poke, particularly now that we know that McCafferty is not to be trusted.

The FFR are saying that it was the English who created the problems for them.

SecretFly wrote:Them bloody Irish, Italian, Scottish and Welsh slaves.  First they do everything PRL want of them (and more) then they go and do everything the FFR command them to do.

What a bunch of meek nitwits!  Disband the Celts completely, I say.  They're much too weak to even make their own decisions.  

Or so the inference of FFR control is meant to go?

Rumour now is that Quins, Leicester, Saints and Saracens want to join the Pro12.

I'm open to the possibility...but I do hope the PRL don't try to force them to stay in AP now against their will!

Source: unknown journalist secretly camped with Exeter Chiefs as Masseu................... OOP!  I've killed his cover.

Sssshhhhhhhhhhh

camou did say that you are right.

and i also think the ffr not only convened the 5-union meeting, but they also excluded the RFU. i also think the other unions had agreed governance and tv issues with the RFU before camou dug his heels in.

Sin é wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:From what I read (mole posting on Munsterfans), he is appealing to other unions to help sort it out. Also, that its the FFR that are really sticking their heels in.

Interesting as well, Richie says he knew nothing about the BT deal that the PRL signed until after the event.

But he's suggesting the Unions should still help PRL out of their own mess and help them honour their rash BT deal by giving in to all their demands?  

This Ian Richie guy...I'll say it again - he negotiates with the panache of the little black guy in Bad Santa.  He really does always remind me of him when these comments come out.

The PRL are in a fix, they can't get out of the BT deal; so the Unions should take pity on them, walk away from their own Sky deal, give in to the structural demands of PRL, give over full control of the HEC to the PRL and all for the betterment of rugby and the saving of McCafferty's bacon?

The BT deal wasn't rash. It may have been a calculated risk, but without it no change would have happened at all. The BT deal was a demonstration that a) it was possible to improve on the existing commercials and b) the PRL were committed to change. It is still a risk but they are gambling that "Europe" needs them more than they need Europe, and that they can live on the BT domestic money (which they say they can) until that point. We will only know if they're in a fix in a year or so's time.

I have been saying for along time that the key to this is the struggle between the FFR and LNR. It seems that, if anything, I may have understated its importance.

No one except the RFU were allowed see what the deal was. You expect everyone to sign up to a pig in a poke, particularly now that we know that McCafferty is not to be trusted.

The FFR are saying that it was the English who created the problems for them.

u live in a parallel universe.

is pretty clear that the unions of ireland, wales, scotland and italy follow meekly along behind whichever big boy is offering them the most crumbs. because they have a crumb addiction, and will perish without it.

The RFu deal brokered with the Rabo unions clearly was unacceptable to the PRL Otherwise the PRL be on board. The Rabo unions had gone as far as they possibly could - but it still an't enough for McCaffreey. So we move on without the PRL. No further compromises from the Rabo unions are going to happen. the PRL sign up - or they don't

Quins - its you that live in a parallel universe.  there is nothing further to negoitiate.  Its take it or leave it. Also the PRL need the rabo unons - because without them they have no procduct to sell.

quinsforever wrote:camou did say that you are right.

and i also think the ffr not only convened the 5-union meeting, but they also excluded the RFU. i also think the other unions had agreed governance and tv issues with the RFU before camou dug his heels in.

Yep, the same article reported that Camou was against RFU attending the next meeting. Having read one of the latest Lapasset interviews I am now of the mind that IRB has been pulling those particular strings, including those of FFR.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:camou did say that you are right.

and i also think the ffr not only convened the 5-union meeting, but they also excluded the RFU. i also think the other unions had agreed governance and tv issues with the RFU before camou dug his heels in.

Yep, the same article reported that Camou was against RFU attending the next meeting. Having read one of the latest Lapasset interviews I am now of the mind that IRB has been pulling those particular strings, including those of FFR.

No doubt in my mind that you're correct. Lapasset would have used the IRB General Assembly immediately before the 5 Union meeting to garner support for a FIRA-AER led francophile assault on the 6N and all their clubs.

quinsforever wrote:camou did say that you are right.

and i also think the ffr not only convened the 5-union meeting, but they also excluded the RFU. i also think the other unions had agreed governance and tv issues with the RFU before camou dug his heels in.

Browne - the whiner - doesn't agree with you. And he was there.

My god there is some strange thoughts and paranoia from the PRL fanbois

Goverance was clearly not agreed apart from for next year when the euro cup will be under the ERC using the RFU brokered template. the following year is up for discussion but the unions will remain in charge as the vast majority want them to

a FIRA-AER led francophile assault on the 6N and all their clubs.

 what utter nonsense.  You mean good goverance might mean the PRL getting reigned in?  Everyone else would cheer.  this whole fiasco is the result of a few folk with big egos trying to take control and dictate terms - I mean not even telling the RFU about the BT deal!

The big problem for PRL was that they got into bed with the wrong allies.  

They did the dirty on their 'Home'....nation 'buddies', they proposed structures that would cause suffering to their 'Home' nation 'buddies', they hugged and kissed the French right up until the point that the French stabbed them in the back.

And now the story is "look what yis have created by letting the French get into bed with you lads.  You've ruined Europe and you've allowed France to make a big play for total control of Europe"

No - actually you ruined Europe by getting into bed with French clubs in the first place and sneering your nearest neighbours in the process.  Had you gotten into bed with us in the first place, against the increasing supremecy of French clubs, you'd have had nice faithful allies.  But McCafferty doesn't believe in loyalty, only bucks.  He'd do the same to French clubs as they have done to him. If the situation required it, he would have stabbed them in the back as quickly as they have done it to him.

The french hardly stabbed him in the back. It was clear there was a huge gulf between the french and the PRL and as I said right from the beginning the french demands could by and large be met - and the french were prepared to compromise. As it turned out

McCaffrrey clearly totally misread the situation. He thought everyone only cared about money. the french were clearly not firmly allied to them - indeed as the PRL changed their position to align with the French it was obvious they were not so. the french were furious about the BT deal and cloarly not happy with the antics of the PRL

RCC is dead, killed by FFR/LNR.

ERC will be dead in 2015, by order of Lapasset, with FFR and LNR the joint executioners..

What will fill the void? Will either crawl from their graves, or will FIRA-AER expand into a true european governing body, including the professional game? Perhaps an alternative - the ERC-RRW allstars?

Then again, perhaps a B&I league with the richest english clubs breaking away from PRL, with a couple of french malcontents and a variety of Irish, Welsh and Scots.

We'll see, eventually.

McCafferty will say, in private, and in 'French' that he was stabbed in the back.  The LNR were ready to rumble in the RCC and then all of a sudden they were gone.

But you're right.  PRL probably did misread.  It's an old rugby union trick that the French clubs pulled off and had he been a genuine rugby man, McCafferty might have been alive to it.
It was salary upgrade money gameplay as a new contract approached.  What do we see players do?  They begin to talk of wanting to experience some time away.  They talk of always wanting to see what AP or Top14 looks like.  They say they've had calls from interested parties.  When it goes to the extremes there can even be talk that the deal has been done and the players have gone from their beloved clubs.  Only for the next day's papers to quote them:  "Me?  Going abroad?  No, I'm happy where I am.  I love this place...and the new higher salary "

That's kinda what the French have done.

What will fill the void? I guess a sub committee of the FIRA. One thing for sure - it will be union run and controlled

I think what the last weekend shows is that the Irish system works well. Rather than try and force the PRO12 to be more like the Franglo league's, they should be trying to take from the Irish system what can work well for them too.

Get more Franglo teams into the top tier tournament, financial support from the unions for clubs in return for limiting player game time. Limits on foreign signings and investment in local academies.

Oh and equal money for every team that plays in Europe would be fairer than paying per union as happens now.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:camou did say that you are right.

and i also think the ffr not only convened the 5-union meeting, but they also excluded the RFU. i also think the other unions had agreed governance and tv issues with the RFU before camou dug his heels in.

Yep, the same article reported that Camou was against RFU attending the next meeting. Having read one of the latest Lapasset interviews I am now of the mind that IRB has been pulling those particular strings, including those of FFR.

No doubt in my mind that you're correct. Lapasset would have used the IRB General Assembly immediately before the 5 Union meeting to garner support for a FIRA-AER led francophile assault on the 6N and all their clubs.

Not sure I would call it an assault, yet, as it could also be viewed as a defence against the very present threat of Clubs vying for control of European rugby. The danger is of course that rather than power being spread out across Europe, France itself becomes more powerful than it already is.
Not sure at all how this will pan out, but hopefully the four home unions are on their toes, and keeping a wary eye on our French cousins.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Oh and equal money for every team that plays in Europe would be fairer than paying per union as happens now.

Equal money within each tier, I'd say. Bunging say £2m to a Georgian club playing in a 3rd tier, or a Polish team in a regional 4th tier would distort their domestic league, unless they have a money sharing agreement or (whisper it gently) the money goes to their Union.   

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think what the last weekend shows is that the Irish system works well. Rather than try and force the PRO12 to be more like the Franglo league's, they should be trying to take from the Irish system what can work well for them too.

Get more Franglo teams into the top tier tournament, financial support from the unions for clubs in return for limiting player game time. Limits on foreign signings and investment in local academies.[/b]

isnt that pretty much what the RFU/PRL and as of last week FFR/LNR have done?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Oh and equal money for every team that plays in Europe would be fairer than paying per union as happens now.

agree with the concept, but does that extend to those that dont qualify from rabo12? does that mean that every year there is large uncertainty about the euro cup revenues for rabo12 teams? the AP and top14 teams get equal money irrespective of who qualifies (is one of the benefits of running a pro league with a commercial body on top )

Money should go to Smaller Unions!!!  Money should go to Smaller Unions!!!  Read all about it!  Read all about it!

Munchkin wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:camou did say that you are right.

and i also think the ffr not only convened the 5-union meeting, but they also excluded the RFU. i also think the other unions had agreed governance and tv issues with the RFU before camou dug his heels in.

Yep, the same article reported that Camou was against RFU attending the next meeting. Having read one of the latest Lapasset interviews I am now of the mind that IRB has been pulling those particular strings, including those of FFR.

No doubt in my mind that you're correct. Lapasset would have used the IRB General Assembly immediately before the 5 Union meeting to garner support for a FIRA-AER led francophile assault on the 6N and all their clubs.

Not sure I would call it an assault, yet, as it could also be viewed as a defence against the very present threat of Clubs vying for control of European rugby. The danger is of course that rather than power being spread out across Europe, France itself becomes more powerful than it already is.
Not sure at all how this will pan out, but hopefully the four home unions are on their toes, and keeping a wary eye on our French cousins.

Yes, "assault" was a little colourful on my part. At the moment I'm prepared to give M Lapasset the benefit of the doubt (I'm sure he'll be relieved) and assume that he's acting with his IRB hat on and acting to grow the game in Europe. At the same time, the cynic in me expects that, following the influx of money and power that professionalism brings with it, FIRA-AER would descend into the same kind of politics, back-stabbing and back-scratching that is prevalent within IRB and elsewhere.

I'd be relying more on the "minnows" to keep on eye on both the French and the 4 "home" unions.

It's not a done deal yet, anyway, although it's the frontrunner in a field of one.

quinsforever wrote:nah, it was on 606 somewhere so must be true

Wasn't 606 or any Internet blog site

quinsforever wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Oh and equal money for every team that plays in Europe would be fairer than paying per union as happens now.

agree with the concept, but does that extend to those that dont qualify from rabo12? does that mean that every year there is large uncertainty about the euro cup revenues for rabo12 teams? the AP and top14 teams get equal money irrespective of who qualifies (is one of the benefits of running a pro league with a commercial body on top )

Good for you, quins.  A Pro league with a commercial body on top.  Nice.  It's always nice to hear how outside leagues are getting along.  
Not of course the same structure as the much more complicated modern idea of a pro-League amongst different Nations.  Much less straightforward than the cute little single Nation league.  

But at least you all (Franglos) get to see what the idea looks like in theory through the HEC - and we all know how unity of purpose is going in that one!!!  We also see what happens when one of the 'teams' doesn't want to listen to the 'commercial body on top'

SecretFly wrote:Money should go to Smaller Unions!!!  Money should go to Smaller Unions!!!  Read all about it!  Read all about it!

Yep, a flat £2m to all 48 Unions in FIRA-AER and the clubs, provinces, regions, etc have to pay their own travel costs, wages, stadium upkeep, insurance, etc, but they do get to keep their home gate money (unless the central fund needs a top up to £96m). That should incentivise everyone.

by the way all, apologies for this earlier. was rude and unnecessarily inflammatory. occasionally my buttons get pressed and i lash out first, regret it later.

"u live in a parallel universe.

is pretty clear that the unions of ireland, wales, scotland and italy follow meekly along behind whichever big boy is offering them the most crumbs. because they have a crumb addiction, and will perish without it."

Hmmm...didn't see that one! You shouldn't have bothered to apologise for it,coz now I see it!!!! And now I'm angry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And now I'm gonna say what I really feel about all of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


...after me tea.

SecretFly, you astonish me. You can tell us with considerable precision what McCafferty says in private and even thinks, and you can divine mischievous intent in what looked to me like a fairly serious question from quinsforever.

quinsforever wrote:by the way all, apologies for this earlier. was rude and unnecessarily inflammatory. occasionally my buttons get pressed and i lash out first, regret it later.

"u live in a parallel universe.

is pretty clear that the unions of ireland, wales, scotland and italy follow meekly along behind whichever big boy is offering them the most crumbs. because they have a crumb addiction, and will perish without it."

That ok, quins. We can take it. Anyway, we all know that it's really the RFU following meekly behind PRL   

Poorfour wrote:SecretFly, you astonish me. You can tell us with considerable precision what McCafferty says in private and even thinks, and you can divine mischievous intent in what looked to me like a fairly serious question from quinsforever.

I know, I'm gifted.  What can I say, I have to live with it and sometimes perfection is a burden but somebody gotta do the job!

Now, after all that self-praise.................. what the hell are you on about?  I know exactly what McCafferty thinks and says but I'm having trouble remembering what serious question quins asked???

I'm not suggesting he isn't capable of asking a serious question.... just help me out a little and pinpoint the particular one you're refering to.

Re - equal money for every team suggestion

"agree with the concept, but does that extend to those that dont qualify from rabo12? does that mean that every year there is large uncertainty about the euro cup revenues for rabo12 teams? the AP and top14 teams get equal money irrespective of who qualifies (is one of the benefits of running a pro league with a commercial body on top"

.

yes it was feckless, but you replied to mine, but only to the last bit in parentheses. the main question i posed is actually a fairly sensible one.

I tend to just post my opinion and run on this one. If I got into a conversation here I'd end up having to argue with a PRL supporter about what colour the sky is.

Woops I shouldn't have mentioned sky