What was Wayne Barnes Thinking?

Before I start on this one let me get something out first. This is not a "We were robbed by the ref" post. No sour grapes or blaming the ref.

This is a question about trying to understand WB's thought processes in the 10 seconds or so after the incident which led to Quade Coopers yellow card. This is how I saw it:

Quade Cooper in with an early tackle...... Penalty to Wales....... No signal from WB for advantage and no whistle.

Ball knocked on by Wales.......... Play should be stopped and taken back for the penalty...... Still nothing from WB

George North Picks up the ball......... Play should now definitely be stopped If he didn't see the penalty offense then perhaps he was playing advantage to Australia..... If he hadn't seen the knock on then perhaps he was still playing advantage to Wales even though he didn't signal it.

Everyone on the pitch stops, seemingly waiting for WB to blow up for something, the crowd starts to get restless and eventually George North saunter under the posts. Every player on the pitch has committed the cardinal sin of not playing to the whistle.
Now WB blows up BEFORE GN touches down, and then asks for a video replay which confirms a penalty offense followed by a knock on therefore penalty to Wales.

Now my question is Why did he blow up at that point? if he wasn't sure about the penalty or knock on wouldn.t it have been better to let GN touch down first? If he had seen either then why no signal for advantage or earlier whistle?

Any ideas please.

I think the call came from the Touch Judge.

He was not having a good day...!

I think he also questioned whether the ball was passed forward or not after Cooper tackled Scott Williams without the ball.

What BT said.

I didn't think he asked about the knock on. He just asked about he early tackle. Suggests he thought it was a knock-on and not sure about the early tackle. When North broke through no advantage so play stopped gave WB a chance to check the early tackle. If an Australian had got the ball I reckon play would have continued.

If he asked about the knock on, then yes he should have waited.

Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

Which knock?

He also missed the forward pass for Wales' try.

Still, I quite like him.

i dont like blaming the refs because Australia played better then Wales but that was a farce that could have led to a Wales victory

To be fair to Barnes he was on the other side of play so he wouldn't have spotted the knock on. That's why you have more than 1 official.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

Which knock?

I'd be careful. Some posters got a 7 day ban for complaining about the refereeing in an AI on multiple threads. And I know how consistent our moderators are.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

Which knock?

I'd be careful. Some posters got a 7 day ban for complaining about the refereeing in an AI on multiple threads. And I know how consistent our moderators are.

Now I understand why you struggle to toe the line, you don't get why people get bans.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

Which knock?

The forward pass that was ignored by Wayne Barnes before the Australians third try, the ball touches the pitch. Call it a forward pass or a knock on, either way it was the wrong call and another example of Barnes making mistakes which influence the game.

You thought Meyer averaged conceding nine points by referee's inaccuracy. Wayne Barnes about fits that.

You should have gone to specsavers maes.

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

Which knock?

The forward pass that was ignored by Wayne Barnes before the Australians third try, the ball touches the pitch. Call it a forward pass or a knock on, either way it was the wrong call and another example of Barnes making mistakes which influence the game.

You thought Meyer averaged conceding nine points by referee's inaccuracy. Wayne Barnes about fits that.

I'll call it a try. Like most people.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You should have gone to specsavers maes.

I did and they work just fine. The Ref radio is pretty damn clear too and a good number of the crowd heard the TMO not award Tomane's try due to a forward pass, interrupted and unheard by Wayne Barnes. Even Touch Judge Alan Rolland said he thought it was forward when asked by Barnes...

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

Which knock?

The forward pass that was ignored by Wayne Barnes before the Australians third try, the ball touches the pitch. Call it a forward pass or a knock on, either way it was the wrong call and another example of Barnes making mistakes which influence the game.

You thought Meyer averaged conceding nine points by referee's inaccuracy. Wayne Barnes about fits that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Mate it's starting to get really tired now. The pass was fine and this whole distinction that you fail to understand about what a knock on is, and your confusion about the ball bouncing, whatever - you're just disrupting every thread with this palpable crap.

Funny how none of the Welsh coaching team, tv, newspapers or pundits have mentioned the actual words that Barnes supposedly used.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah, the call came from the TJ and then Barnes went to the TMO.

But this for me is all about his awareness which seems to be weak.

The TJ could see it a mile off, the players all knew there was a knock on so the Aussies stopped defending and North stopped running.

At the end of the day Barnes was left with no choice but to blow up for something because he realised he'd look like an arse as the only guy out of perhaps 34 participants who hadn't seen an infringement.

He does seem to have these brain farts where he drifts off and isn't paying attention. They can last for several minutes.

I also think the yellow was an attempt to assert himself when subconsciously he realised he'd lost control again.

Unfortunately the other lead to a try for the Aussies, he didn't see that knock on either.

Which knock?

The forward pass that was ignored by Wayne Barnes before the Australians third try, the ball touches the pitch. Call it a forward pass or a knock on, either way it was the wrong call and another example of Barnes making mistakes which influence the game.

You thought Meyer averaged conceding nine points by referee's inaccuracy. Wayne Barnes about fits that.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

I am sure that the IRB referee's board will have things to say about it with Barnes in his appraisal.

Ignoring fellow, in fact more experienced, international refs who are your touch judges and a TMO on numerous occasions will surely not go down well.

It's fairly clear that he said

1. "I'm looking for a forward pass."
2. "I've just seen it on the big screen. It's not clear and obvious therefore I am going to award the try."

Great call. Perhaps it's just that as the op points out, you've become accustomed to referees grossly favouring Wales, and a bit of reality bites?

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's fairly clear that he said

1. "I'm looking for a forward pass."
2. "I've just seen it on the big screen. It's not clear and obvious therefore I am going to award the try."

Great call. Perhaps it's just that as the op points out, you've become accustomed to referees grossly favouring Wales, and a bit of reality bites?

TMO said it was a "forward pass no try" and Wayne Barnes could not hear him.

Alan Rolland said "it looks like a forward pass but you can check with the TMO"

The ball moves a metre forward of the five meter line during the pass, the ball also touches the pitch.


It was an awful call by Barnes. I think we all wished that the measures of TMOs and so on would reduce these decisions. Maybe they have but they still occur.

So, and I admit I'm getting confused now, did he ignore the TMO or did he not hear him?

At one point in the game he did say that he couldn't hear his touch judges and asked them to say something so he could check so maybe there was a problem all game with the communications.

Go on then Maes - who should have won on Saturday then?

jelly wrote:So, and I admit I'm getting confused now, did he ignore the TMO or did he not hear him?

At one point in the game he did say that he couldn't hear his touch judges and asked them to say something so he could check so maybe there was a problem all game with the communications.

The TMO said "Wayne can you hear me", a number of times when he was discarding the try as a forward pass.

He didn't discard the try as a forward pass. Whether or not he could hear/ignored the TMO is irrelevant. Barnes was the referee, he saw the replay, he made the right decision.

As we've been over on previous threads:

(1) The flight of the ball is irrelavant. It's the direction of the force applied by the pass.
(2) The ball touching the pitch does not magically turn a pass into a knock on.

I think we all watched the game and didn't hear what maes is saying. He also quoted Barnes as saying 'I can't hear you so I am going to award the try' which I also didn't hear. I'd be intrigued to see if he can find a link to what he's saying.

I think he's hearing voices in his head.

I'm also in complete agreement with GE. Good call by the ref, to the current rules and not just the rules some people want.

GloriousEmpire wrote:He didn't discard the try as a forward pass. Whether or not he could hear/ignored the TMO is irrelevant. Barnes was the referee, he saw the replay, he made the right decision.

No he made the wrong decision because the pass was forward. Two other officials also thought it was forward. Watching it on replay you can see it is forward, it actually went forward, there is nothing that makes something go forward not be an object that is moving forward.

There is a white line underneath the pass, painted on the pitch, that shows you clearly the pass it going forward.

You do understand what forward means don't you?

Folau passed the ball in a position that was towards the australian end of the pitch, more than where the ball landed on the pitch...!!!

It is a common rule in the game that is generally noticed by referees.

I'd just like to take this moment to compliment Nigel Owens and the TMO on their handling of the AB's houdini try against Ireland.
 
They were calm, and thorough and not swayed by the efforts of the partisan home crowd.
 
I could easily imagine a referee flapping in that situation and calling a non-existant knock on.
 
It's great when referees have the ability to stand strong and not be swayed by an atmosphere.

I'm also a bit disappointed by the UK's best coach crying wolf on the Australian match winning try non forward pass. I think someone with his reptuation and achievement should be a bit more professional in facing the reasons for a loss.

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:He didn't discard the try as a forward pass. Whether or not he could hear/ignored the TMO is irrelevant. Barnes was the referee, he saw the replay, he made the right decision.

No he made the wrong decision because the pass was forward. Two other officials also thought it was forward. Watching it on replay you can see it is forward, it actually went forward, there is nothing that makes something go forward not be an object that is moving forward.

There is a white line underneath the pass, painted on the pitch, that shows you clearly the pass it going forward.

You do understand what forward means don't you?

Folau passed the ball in a position that was towards the australian end of the pitch, more than where the ball landed on the pitch...!!!

It is a common rule in the game that is generally noticed by referees.

I think we've found where you're struggling. That's not the actual interpretation of forward pass.

Nurse!

It was a good game, a good flowing rugby game and part of the credit has to come from the referee. He wasn't trigger happy and I don't know much he got wrong.

People can criticise with multiple views, slow motions etc and a dozen pundits giving their 10p worth.

He's one of the better referees out there now.

This is getting tiresome now, Maes.

Maestegmafia

It's been regularly clarified by referees that the rule is to be interpreted as the direction the ball leaves the passers hands in relative to their motion, rather than the simple direction relative to the lines on the pitch. If it was just the direction relative to the pitch then nearly half of all the passes that happen in the game would be called forward because of the sheer speed that players are running at when they pass the ball - they'd have to pass it backwards at the same speed they are running just to make it travel level when sprinting.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:He didn't discard the try as a forward pass. Whether or not he could hear/ignored the TMO is irrelevant. Barnes was the referee, he saw the replay, he made the right decision.

No he made the wrong decision because the pass was forward. Two other officials also thought it was forward. Watching it on replay you can see it is forward, it actually went forward, there is nothing that makes something go forward not be an object that is moving forward.

There is a white line underneath the pass, painted on the pitch, that shows you clearly the pass it going forward.

You do understand what forward means don't you?

Folau passed the ball in a position that was towards the australian end of the pitch, more than where the ball landed on the pitch...!!!

It is a common rule in the game that is generally noticed by referees.

I think we've found where you're struggling. That's not the actual interpretation of forward pass.

>>> You do understand what forward means don't you? <<<<

Flashing red lights.

We all do. It appears you don't old chap.

I'd also go see the doctor and have my ears waxed if I were you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm also in complete agreement with GE. Good call by the ref, to the current rules and not just the rules some people want.

A forward pass is not in the rules and it is a fundamental part of rugby defining the difference between Rugby Union and Grid Iron a sport where you are allowed one forward pass per play.

Folau is a former AFL player, a sport where a forward pass is allowed, he can be forgiven for not trying harder to make sure his pass went backwards. Had he done so and Tomane had caught the ball from an onside position it should have been awarded but that was not the case.

I do find it interesting that though that if the ball goes technically forward (but the hands are backwards) its not a forward pass whereas if the ball hits the ground in the process it is a forward pass.

Same pass, same hands movement. One goes straight to the hand - not a forward pass. One bounces - forward pass.

fa0019 wrote:I do find it interesting that though that if the ball goes technically forward (but the hands are backwards) its not a forward pass whereas if the ball hits the ground in the process it is a forward pass.

Same pass, same hands movement. One goes straight to the hand - not a forward pass. One bounces - forward pass.

That's not true either.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm also in complete agreement with GE. Good call by the ref, to the current rules and not just the rules some people want.

A forward pass is not in the rules and it is a fundamental part of rugby defining the difference between Rugby Union and Grid Iron a sport where you are allowed one forward pass per play.

Folau is a former AFL player, a sport where a forward pass is allowed, he can be forgiven for not trying harder to make sure his pass went backwards. Had he done so and Tomane had caught the ball from an onside position it should have been awarded but that was not the case.

You need to find a way to cope with disappointment, without needing to spend a week trying to argue that black is white.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm also in complete agreement with GE. Good call by the ref, to the current rules and not just the rules some people want.

A forward pass is not in the rules and it is a fundamental part of rugby defining the difference between Rugby Union and Grid Iron a sport where you are allowed one forward pass per play.

Folau is a former AFL player, a sport where a forward pass is allowed, he can be forgiven for not trying harder to make sure his pass went backwards. Had he done so and Tomane had caught the ball from an onside position it should have been awarded but that was not the case.

I'm just going to assume you know you're wrong and are doing this to pass the time. Seems kinder than the other option.

And fa, they should be both fine.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I do find it interesting that though that if the ball goes technically forward (but the hands are backwards) its not a forward pass whereas if the ball hits the ground in the process it is a forward pass.

Same pass, same hands movement. One goes straight to the hand - not a forward pass. One bounces - forward pass.

That's not true either.

Really?

Well obviously the first one is right so you're saying if the ball bounces and physically goes forward its not a forward pass???

as long as the hands are backwards??

so what happens if he throws it with his hands backwards and with an ugly bounce it goes 3 metres forward like rugby balls can do.... is that still not forward???

fa0019 wrote:I do find it interesting that though that if the ball goes technically forward (but the hands are backwards) its not a forward pass whereas if the ball hits the ground in the process it is a forward pass.

Same pass, same hands movement. One goes straight to the hand - not a forward pass. One bounces - forward pass.

Yes i agree

Obviously Folaus hands are forward of the point where he passed the ball. The ball still lands in front of that point as well.

There is nothing that makes that pass anything but forward. As agreed by the officials aiding the Ref.

GE, please go back to the exagerrated version of yourself as I feel icky from agreeing with you so much.

maestegmafia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I do find it interesting that though that if the ball goes technically forward (but the hands are backwards) its not a forward pass whereas if the ball hits the ground in the process it is a forward pass.

Same pass, same hands movement. One goes straight to the hand - not a forward pass. One bounces - forward pass.

Yes i agree

Obviously Folaus hands are forward of the point where he passed the ball. The ball still lands in front of that point as well.

There is nothing that makes that pass anything but forward. As agreed by the officials aiding the Ref.

I'm here all day Maes. Quite happy to refute this silliness as long as the moderators allow it to continue.

You can't make something true just by repeating it 1,000 times.

A pass is forward if the direction the ball is passed/the force applied to the ball/the movement of the passers hands is towards the opponents goal line.

Folau is moving at some speed, he makes a brilliant flat pass.

The entire sequence is reviewed by Barnes on the big screen.

He's happy the pass is not forward.

The try is allowed.

Wales lose.

End of story.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I'm here all day Maes. Quite happy to refute this silliness as long as the moderators allow it to continue.

You can't make something true just by repeating it 1,000 times.

A pass is forward if the direction the ball is passed/the force applied to the ball/the movement of the passers hands is towards the opponents goal line.

Folau is moving at some speed, he makes a brilliant flat pass.

The entire sequence is reviewed by Barnes on the big screen.

He's happy the pass is not forward.

The try is allowed.

Wales lose.

End of story.

A bit like France v NZ in 07?

thomh wrote:Maestegmafia

It's been regularly clarified by referees that the rule is to be interpreted as the direction the ball leaves the passers hands in relative to their motion, rather than the simple direction relative to the lines on the pitch. If it was just the direction relative to the pitch then nearly half of all the passes that happen in the game would be called forward because of the sheer speed that players are running at when they pass the ball - they'd have to pass it backwards at the same speed they are running just to make it travel level when sprinting.

Quite.

The angle of the hands thing is the Rugby League rule, although its increasingly become what referees now look at and what pundits (the same ones that scream " you have to let the man up") refer to.

Forward throws are defined as ones where the force was imparted to the ball in a forward motion, not the direction the ball actually ends up travelling in.

This is nothing new, this way of understanding the law has been around a long time and explained endlessly.

that said judging forward passes remains problematic in the game regardless of what rules you use or think you use. Even TV replays where theres lines on the pitch can be hugely misleading due to angles and difficulty in seeing the point at which the ball is actually released etc. They should probably just ban passing and hand England the world cup.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I'm here all day Maes. Quite happy to refute this silliness as long as the moderators allow it to continue.

You can't make something true just by repeating it 1,000 times.

A pass is forward if the direction the ball is passed/the force applied to the ball/the movement of the passers hands is towards the opponents goal line.

Folau is moving at some speed, he makes a brilliant flat pass.

The entire sequence is reviewed by Barnes on the big screen.

He's happy the pass is not forward.

The try is allowed.

Wales lose.

End of story.

A bit like France v NZ in 07?

To be fair guns... that was one hell of a flat pass by Michelak.