Wayne Barnes - one major mistake nearly every game!

For a referee who seems to be held in such high regard and who in general terms controls a game well he seems to make a disproportionate number of glaring errors in tight games. It's a pity that after what was such an enthralling game the major talking point is Barnes missing Contemponi being yards offside for Parks drop goal attempt. I bet New Zealand are hoping they avoid him at all costs!

Go watch the whole game again, and then look at every error, don't pick the one that is most suitable to your argument, otherwise it carries no weight.

Let's all slag the referee again shall we, what a great idea.

Did he fall off tackles to let Amorosino score his try? No.

Did he miss kickable penalties during the game? No

Did he get bullied at the breakdown and fail to protect the ball well enough? No

Scotland lost because they were not good enough, not because Barnes missed an offside. I am certain he missed others during the game, which had he have given we would have had a completely different match. It's life.

hear, hear.

It is no use looking good between the two 22's, it is important to execute opportunities.

The same scenario applied between Wales and SA, SA had a few opportunities and converted them, Argentina the same.

Have to agree with the other two lads here Eclipse. I was gutted for Scotland but they'll gain more from this match if they view it in terms of 'we lost focus and failed to gather a restart which led to Argentina scoring at the death' than blaming the referee.

Even with the offside, Scotland were taking it on from a difficult angle and that was because Argentina were counter-rucking with such ferocity it was putting them under pressure and preventing them from setting up the perfect platform for the drop in the first place.

Agreed, yes, such a high profile error is unfortunate, but Scotland lost because of Scotland, not Barnes.

The key turning point was our response to their reaction to going 6 points behind. They were focused and determined, we were too busy smiling and congratulating ourselves. Not sorting out that restart was unforgivable.

Yes of course we must accept that refs make mistakes and just move on.

Easily done when these man sausage-ups don't involve our team.

To be fair Cymro, I've not seen any of the Scottish posters using the referee as an excuse for losing, and I am guessing from the OP's location that he is Welsh, so it doesn't actually involve his team (unless he is a Scotsman in Wales, in which case I apologise), it's just an excuse to moan about something.

I mentioned no games or nationalities, I'm just saying it's easy to tell people to move on when it does not involve our own side.

have to say as much as it was a big miss by Barnes Scotland beat themselves. too many turnovers and missed opportunities. Thought the pack did well but as usual the backs didn't get enough support.

All referees make mistakes, and he has made some real howlers, the one with Wales against Italy was probably his biggest, where he apologised to the players after the game. for telling the Wales players they had time for a line out then promptly blew for full time when we kicked the ball into touch!

You could argue he made an error during the Wales V South Africa game with the Hook kick, but the tv angle wasn't great and I'd lean towards the touch judges decision on that occasion.

I think Barnes is a good solid ref, but the problem is the rules of rugby are open to interpretation and referees make their own interpretations up as they go alone, which creates misunderstandings.

The problem with mistakes by referees are we always remeber the last penalty that was given or not given depending whether our team won or lost, but during the match there are probably another handful that was either incorrectly given or not given.

That is why moaning about a penalty or decision at the death doesn't mean much without looking at all the match changing decisions or non decisions.

If I take the Wales match for example, the penalty on 72 minutes that Wales recieved and missed to posts was supposed to give a penalty to SA as North never released Hougaard, but he still got the penlaty, and if that went over we would have lost off an incorrect decision.

In the 2010 Tri Nations we lost to australia in the last minute becuase we were controlling possession and the referee decided we killed the ball with pick and drive which he didn't blow once during the whole game. Penalty kicked over and we lost.

Barnes had a shocker yes. However Scotland butchered half a dozen prime scoring oppertunities. Barnes didn't do that, Scotland did.

AlynDavies wrote:All referees make mistakes, and he has made some real howlers, the one with Wales against Italy was probably his biggest, where he apologised to the players after the game. for telling the Wales players they had time for a line out then promptly blew for full time when we kicked the ball into touch!

Pretty sure that was Chris White

Barnes should be shot in the eyes. The ones in the back of his head, obviously.

Alyndavies- It was Chris White who blew up for the Wales lineout not Wayne Barnes. Barnes had an excellent game today, the moaning from the Scots and other Celts is starting to wear thin.

mckay1402 wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:All referees make mistakes, and he has made some real howlers, the one with Wales against Italy was probably his biggest, where he apologised to the players after the game. for telling the Wales players they had time for a line out then promptly blew for full time when we kicked the ball into touch!

Pretty sure that was Chris White

White was reffing, and he blew after he was told there was no more time by the 4th offical, so it wasn't the refs fault in the first place.

Well done, Alyn, right as usual...

I think the OP is making a fair point gents, no need to jump down his throat.

There's no suggestion that Barnes cost Scotland the match, nor any particular inference that this was his only mistake.

Read it again and it suggests:

1 Barnes is incorrectly held in high regard - I agree
2 He makes some glaring errors in high profile games - I agree
3 That it's a shame that after such an enthralling game Barnes is attracting too much attention for his performance - I agree
4 That NZ will be hoping Barnes gets nowhere near any of their games - given

Here's a fact, at such a seminal point in the game, with the DG attempt so obviously coming, the referee owes it to the game to be looking for offside, with POB's insistance that offsides should be clamped down on this WC, you really would have thought Barnes would be better than that.

Every referee misses things during a game, it's impossible to suggest they shouldn't, but Barnes was just asleep on this one - downright amateurish.

Eclipse is clearly new to the forum with 18 posts, and the way he's been sandbagged here for a totally legitimate point of view is a little disappointing and unlikely to encourage him to get more involved.

Lighten up fellas.

Re-watch the incident in slow motion, Contimponi was NOT off side, the ITV panel were talking rubbish.

All valid points PJ, but apart from the NZ/France match I can't think of a glaring error by Barnes in a high profile game.

Granted there must be one, even just on the law of averages, but if evidence against Barnes, who has improved as a ref since 2007, is a missed call over 4 years ago then I don't think it's fair to highlight his errors in such a way.

It could equally be written "Rolland/Joubert/Lawrence/Owens/Clive Norling - one mistake in nearly every game"

Yes the ref owes it to the game to check for the offside, but he also owes it to the game to make sure the scrum half isn't pulled into the ruck or that a defender doesn't attempt a deliberate knock on, or a host of other things that if he turned his back he might have missed.

It's unfortunate, but as was mentioned earlier, it wasn't Barnes bouncing off tackles.

I don't understand why people think you can't have a go at Refs for getting a big call wrong. Barnes got a big call wrong, it cost Scotland a fair chance at a game winning drop goal. Is he the only reason Scotland lost? no. Should he get pelters for his mistake, yes!

Its ok saying that he got most of his other calls correct, he did. But if a player plays a good 79 mins and then makes a big mistake and costs his team, does he get it in the neck? Of course he does so why should well paid Refs not be accountable the same as players?

Not making excuses for Scotland getting beat and if Wayne Barnes was the only problem with Scottish Rugby I would dance a jig of joy. But surely people can understand why some people would have ago at the Ref.

wrfc1980 wrote:Re-watch the incident in slow motion, Contimponi was NOT off side, the ITV panel were talking rubbish.

I'm not using Barnes as a scapegoat for us losing the game, just to be clear, but Contepomi was quite clearly offside. There's really no debate there.

Just watched it again contemponi was watching when the ball came out of the ruck very carefully. He may or may not have been offside but if he was it was marginal at best.

Barnes was mainly focusing on the ruck also - unless a linesman flagged up the issue its hard to see how he could have done more.

Its not like Scotland going for the DG was exactly unexpected. Parks could and should have done better - and has been stated elsewhere Scotland had other opportunities to win and they didnt take them.

greybeard wrote:All valid points PJ, but apart from the NZ/France match I can't think of a glaring error by Barnes in a high profile game.

Granted there must be one, even just on the law of averages, but if evidence against Barnes, who has improved as a ref since 2007, is a missed call over 4 years ago then I don't think it's fair to highlight his errors in such a way.

It could equally be written "Rolland/Joubert/Lawrence/Owens/Clive Norling - one mistake in nearly every game"

Yes the ref owes it to the game to check for the offside, but he also owes it to the game to make sure the scrum half isn't pulled into the ruck or that a defender doesn't attempt a deliberate knock on, or a host of other things that if he turned his back he might have missed.

It's unfortunate, but as was mentioned earlier, it wasn't Barnes bouncing off tackles.

Fair enough greybeard, I thought he had a poor game for Wales v SA, I think he had a questionable 6N - but that doesn't amount to a glaring mistake in every high profile game. I guess I just felt that the OP had been climbed into a bit for not very much.

As I said, every referee misses things in the course of the game and you can't expect them to be very different, with Barnes I just think they're a bit basic, let's not forget he gave a penalty to Wales because North tackled Hougaard and lay all over him without releasing, if Hook had slotted that one the result would have been reversed. In today's game he really should have been looking for the early charge but wasn't, basic again.

I like his "low impact" refereeing style, and he has come on stronger since THAT decision, but he's still making silly mistakes that can really cost a team an awful lot.

Oh come on. I've got it recorded on the V+ box and have it right in front of me. Usain Bolt could not have reached Parks at the same time as Contepomi, he was yards offside. It's 100% clear.

It was clearly an error and in the match situation at the time, it cost Scotland a near certain 3 pointer. I don't think there's any doubt about that. I don't however subscribe to the view that Barnes cost Scotland the game. The turning point for me was that restart and the 30 seconds that followed, and that was entirely our fault.

It was not Parks' fault that the drop goal was missed. That came down to two factors. Firstly Contepomi being offside and closing him down, but secondly, and just as crucially, Blair and the forwards not setting it up properly. Parks should have been deeper, and Blair should have either passed the ball more quickly (both in time and also a faster pass), or made sure that Barnes was aware of the offside infringements. Remember how Dawson made the Aussies retreat in 2003 before delivering the pass, Blair needed to do exactly the same. It was poor reffing and poor execution, but not Parks' fault. He pretty much received man and ball, and barely had time to swing his left peg, let alone get into the right position. I don't blame him.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh come on. I've got it recorded on the V+ box and have it right in front of me. Usain Bolt could not have reached Parks at the same time as Contepomi, he was yards offside. It's 100% clear.

It was clearly an error and in the match situation at the time, it cost Scotland a near certain 3 pointer. I don't think there's any doubt about that. I don't however subscribe to the view that Barnes cost Scotland the game. The turning point for me was that restart and the 30 seconds that followed, and that was entirely our fault.

It was not Parks' fault that the drop goal was missed. That came down to two factors. Firstly Contepomi being offside and closing him down, but secondly, and just as crucially, Blair and the forwards not setting it up properly. Parks should have been deeper, and Blair should have either passed the ball more quickly (both in time and also a faster pass), or made sure that Barnes was aware of the offside infringements. Remember how Dawson made the Aussies retreat in 2003 before delivering the pass, Blair needed to do exactly the same. It was poor reffing and poor execution, but not Parks' fault. He pretty much received man and ball, and barely had time to swing his left peg, let alone get into the right position. I don't blame him.

That is what I tried to say!

When you start blaming a ref for a defeat you are on the road to ruin. Scotland lost for a multitude of reasons but Barnes was not one of them

Gatts wrote:When you start blaming a ref for a defeat you are on the road to ruin. Scotland lost for a multitude of reasons but Barnes was not one of them

Think you are putting words in peoples mouths. How many Scotland fans are blaming Barnes for the loss? A few people have said Barnes made an understandable mistake at a key part of the game.

Barnes was NOT the reason we lost the game but had he caught the offside we would almost certainly be in the 1/4s tonight.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

Gatts wrote:When you start blaming a ref for a defeat you are on the road to ruin. Scotland lost for a multitude of reasons but Barnes was not one of them

Think you are putting words in peoples mouths. How many Scotland fans are blaming Barnes for the loss? A few people have said Barnes made an understandable mistake at a key part of the game.

Barnes was NOT the reason we lost the game but had he caught the offside we would almost certainly be in the 1/4s tonight.

gatts never said the scottish fans blamed Barnes, but you can also not pick only one error and say if it wasn't for that Scotland would have been through. That is putting the argument to only suit one side.

biltongbek wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

Gatts wrote:When you start blaming a ref for a defeat you are on the road to ruin. Scotland lost for a multitude of reasons but Barnes was not one of them

Think you are putting words in peoples mouths. How many Scotland fans are blaming Barnes for the loss? A few people have said Barnes made an understandable mistake at a key part of the game.

Barnes was NOT the reason we lost the game but had he caught the offside we would almost certainly be in the 1/4s tonight.

gatts never said the scottish fans blamed Barnes, but you can also not pick only one error and say if it wasn't for that Scotland would have been through. That is putting the argument to only suit one side.

Fair point, a few too many beers had me reading a statement as an accusation!

Blame, Barnes blame the teachers strike, we don't even have Hadden to blame..... Scotland had a penalty advantage infront of the post (basically) and elected for the drop goal straight away. That summed up Scottish Rugby at the moment.

Was Barnes looking at Contepomi? If yes, and if he was offside then he made a mistake.

If not and there are lots of things to look at at the breakdown - are the defense killing the ball, has the scrum half knocked on, are the finge defenders on the back foot - what about the open field defenders are they onside, did that forward just enter legally etc etc.

Refs cannot and will not see everything.

Yeah look not attributing my statement to any fan, speaking figuratively and it refers to any side blaming a ref for a defeat.

Did Scotland actually have the pen advantage?!!!!!

If so, kind of illustrates the point that it was decision making (i hate to use a Woodwardism, but TCUP) that was one contributary factor

Gatts wrote:Yeah look not attributing my statement to any fan, speaking figuratively and it refers to any side blaming a ref for a defeat.

Did Scotland actually have the pen advantage?!!!!!

If so, kind of illustrates the point that it was decision making (i hate to use a Woodwardism, but TCUP) that was one contributary factor

Sorry. Pen advantage I was talking about was the one that Parks kicked over.

[quote="lostinwales"]Just watched it again contemponi was watching when the ball came out of the ruck very carefully. He may or may not have been offside but if he was it was marginal at best.

Contempomi himself thought he was offside "Maybe it was the benefit of being the captain and not being penalised for that. I don't know,"
http://au.sports.yahoo.com/news/article/-/10337442/depressed-parks-reflects-scotland-mood-after-narrow-loss/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_term=wikyou&utm_content=http://wikyou.org/info/ituneBEST100/iTunes.php

In a one score game, Barnes' mistake probably cost Scotland the game. It was one of many reasons but it was undeniably one of them.

Of course Scotland should have been well out of sight so that WB's mistake didn't matter, but they weren't. Scotland's inability to pass and use overlaps is costing them every game. Morrison and De Luca can't seem to spot a man advantage or don't have the ability to exploit it. That is Scotland's and Robinson's problem. There were a lot of strange substitutions including Parks that tipped the balance away from the Scots just when they were in the ascendant, so Robinson himself is probably the main culprit for this loss.

It's not all doom and gloom though as Scotland still have a shot at qualifying against England and they might just come through that in what is likely to be a very attritional match.

I wonder if Wayne Barnes is related to Stuart Barnes...would explain alot

Given that Parks couldnt find touch with his previously penalty and managed to comepletly spoon the simplest drop goal atempt hes likely to get in the space of a couple of minutes what were teh odds on him making the penalty kick anyway?

I repeat my earlier question - WAS BARNES LOOKING AT CONTEPOMI?

Further to my original post I think Wayne Barnes is a good referee and was glad when the match list showed he was in charge for the Wales v SA game. I think he had a good game in that match too and have no issue regarding the Hook penalty. However, a top quality referee should be aware of the offside line in front of the posts in the last minute when a drop goal attempt is an almost certainty. To be fair he should have had a call from one of his assistants as it was so blatant. Scotland do have themselves to blame for being in that position as they should have been well ahead but the fact is that they were a drop goal away from winning in the last minute and that was made harder by the missed offside. The way Parks was playing he may well have missed it anyway but we'll never know. As I said in my original post it's just a pity that after such an exciting game the major talking point was that decision.

Gatts wrote:I wonder if Wayne Barnes is related to Stuart Barnes...would explain alot

Are you related to 'foot in mouth' Gatland? - would explain a lot........

is your man crush on Stuart, Wayne or both together?

As a Scot, I am of course as dissapointed with Barnes as i am with several missed tackles, the switching off after taking a 12-6 lead etc.

But, as soon as I knew he was refereeing, (not sure how he got the gig, given he is English) I knew something like this would happen, he seems to make a habit of it, on this ocassion it was poor refereeing, but he should have had some sort of conflab with his touch judges, who could have assisted him.

This was obviously a pivotal moment in the game, he should have made sure he got it right.

Poor again, and it wasnt his only glaring error in teh game, but that shouldnt detract from a game we should have won comfotably, given the chances we had.

That said, lets hope the people who are discarding the OP post with such distain, don't suffer a similar fate in their next game!

i wonder how reactions will change!

Wow all these posts and no one mentions the two touch judges….is it not also their jobs to lookout for off side infringements.

Well the officials made one glaring error, I lost count of how many errors Scotland made. So I know who is responsible for the loss.

Surely Gregor Townsend's jacket must be on a shaky nail.

I posted the other day my concern that in a game where scores are so close, that referring errors (or differences in what they're looking for at each phase in the game) can cost sides the win.

Of course, there'll be instances throughout the match where the ref has missed other things or made some questionable decisions, but its calls like this that do affect the outcome of the game.

Its all good and well saying "they had other chances to win the match they should have finished", but thats not the point, I dont think anyone here isnt saying that Scotland were there own worst enemy in this game (as Wales should have taken other opportunities/kicks in their game against SA etc etc).

BUT

this call is rightly being highlighted. referees need to be called up on decisions like this, and to learn from them. How often are we talking about decisions affecting the outcome of a game? If you just say "oh its just an excuse because you lost" in my eyes, you're just a bit of a clart.

Well, I agree comfort, between the three officials at pitch level, they should have been able to see that Contepomi was streets offside, but they didn't.

I await to see the next time this happens, when it isn't Scotland and is perhaps one of the bigger nations, England, SA, NZ etc, what the reaction is from the people who had disregarded the poor refereeing- I very much doubt it will be so magnanimous

Personally, from a Scottish point of view i am more annoyed with Blair....he should have been calling to Barnes telling him what he was going to do, and watch for the Argentine offside. He should have also said to Parks to drop further back.

In all my years watching and playing abit..... I have never seen someone (especially not a 34 yr old) out run a passed rugby ball.

TheDukeofCool wrote:Personally, from a Scottish point of view i am more annoyed with Blair....he should have been calling to Barnes telling him what he was going to do, and watch for the Argentine offside. He should have also said to Parks to drop further back.

In all my years watching and playing abit..... I have never seen someone (especially not a 34 yr old) out run a passed rugby ball.

Everyone knew what was coming, that's why contepomi was where he was, Barnes had his back to it, but even when he turned round it should have been obvious what had happed, and as i said before, he should have had help from his touch judges

JDandfries wrote:

TheDukeofCool wrote:Personally, from a Scottish point of view i am more annoyed with Blair....he should have been calling to Barnes telling him what he was going to do, and watch for the Argentine offside. He should have also said to Parks to drop further back.

In all my years watching and playing abit..... I have never seen someone (especially not a 34 yr old) out run a passed rugby ball.

Everyone knew what was coming, that's why contepomi was where he was, Barnes had his back to it, but even when he turned round it should have been obvious what had happed, and as i said before, he should have had help from his touch judges

i agree he should have help from his touch judges. Blair should have been in his ear aswell, you know, to cover all the bases.

Morning all. As a ref I feel I should comment on a few issues.

1) Contepomi was off-side. This is not in doubt, the player has admitted it, and it is clear from the replays. He wasn't however "yards offside" let's keep this in context. He was probably a good half-yard offside, no more.

2) Barnes didn't see it. He had his back turned. IMO he got his positioning wrong, too close to the defending line, should have either got himself blind-side (but then he'd have been unsighted had Scotland done another pick and drive) or better gone a bit deeper, almost directl behind the ruck (whilst staying out of the 9-10 channel obv., see how hard this is?).

3) Having not seen it he couldn't give it. You can never ever guess as a referee, that is a golden rule. as he looked around he would have suspected that 12 was offside, but couldn't be sure.

4) what on earth were the Assistant Refs upto? Particularly the one far side? What did Barnes brief his ARs to do, did he include back-lines off-side?

5) Barnes had a very good game apart from that incident. Please don't listen to the ITV commentators, they talk balderdash (to put it politely). In particular, a player who is involved in bringing his opposite number to ground must release the ball (and opposite player) even if he stays on his feet. To give a penalty against Scotland for that (from which Argentina hit the post if memory serves me right) isn't "harsh" it is obvious.

6) There were of course many reasons why Scotland lost the game, but to be fair most scots on here (in fact I would say all) accept this. This is a great difference between rugby and football.

7) However we musn't lose sight of the fact that Barnes's decision was such a factor. It is a pity, but it's hard to see how you can avoid the possibility of such errors entirely. No doubt he will get marked down for the mistake. It shouldn't however overshadow either his good performance overall, or the other reasons for the result.