New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

"Rugby Union is too complicated to understand to attract a mass audience in the first place."

which is the problem for union fans..

because otherwise league or NFL could overtake rugby and kill it.

Off course the reality is it isnt to complicated and by far the best form, but if union doesn't progress(as at the moment it is by far the biggest global rugby type game) others will over take

Is it not similar to having a salary cap? Part of the agreement is that the RRW have to play in the Pro12 & Heineken Cup - its not as if they are not being offered alternative competitions. Their Pro12 colleagues seem confident that there will be a competition next year (the Provinces & Scottish teams are extending player contracts).

Think of it like this:
You own the worldwide franchise rights for Poorfour Pizza. I buy the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland and Quinners buys the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in England.

If Quinners decided to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland, would you try and stop him. And if you did do you think he would be able to take legal action against you (or me) for attempts to prevent him trade in an EU country?

Sorry but I don't see how this ends up in court, there is no restrain of trade, if PRL and RRW want to play in a league together, there is nothing stopping them, they just need to do it under the auspices of a separate/non IRB governing body.

Sin é wrote:Is it not similar to having a salary cap? Part of the agreement is that the RRW have to play in the Pro12 & Heineken Cup - its not as if they are not being offered alternative competitions. Their Pro12 colleagues seem confident that there will be a competition next year (the Provinces & Scottish teams are extending player contracts).

Think of it like this:
You own the worldwide franchise rights for Poorfour Pizza. I buy the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland and Quinners buys the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in England.

If Quinners decided to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland, would you try and stop him. And if you did do you think he would be able to take legal action against you (or me) for attempts to prevent him trade in an EU country?

Completely missed the point again. You continue with this idea (at least you put across the idea) that legally there is any relationship between a union and the rights for viewing rugby in that country.

To follow that analogy, you actually buy the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza MADE in Ireland. Quinners buys the rights to sell the Pizza made in England. If Quinners decides to sell his English made pizza in Ireland that's his choice. If he tried to sell Pizza made in Ireland anywhere you would have a case against him.

We seem to go through this every few months. You claim you can't sell the viewing rights in a country without asking the union's approval, I pull out the IRB regulations, you misquote them and avoid the parts that clearly point out you're wrong, finally once it's made so clear there is no way out you move seemlessly onto something else without admitting you're wrong at all. And then the cycle begins again a few months later.

also how is it like a salary cap? The salary caps are mutually agreed by the parties they're inflicted on. You can't go to court to complain about something you agreed to. If one of the regions didn't sign up to a salary cap and the other tried to force them then they could challenge it in court.

That's the thing with all this, you only find out if it's legal if someone challenges it.

Looking at the wider ramifications of this, let's assume that a court decides that the regions can join up with the Jeff to form a league and do not need the agreement/permission of their sports national or international governing bodies to do so as long as there's another league willing to have them -  such a ruling gives carte blanche to other sports to do the same so very shortly you would assume that the big clubs of football would be doing the same, e.g. Celtic and Rangers into the English league, the top Dutch and Belgian sides into the French league and possibly a whole new top tier European league with the usual subjects from the Champions League joining up.
A very brave court decision and one heck of a can of worms to open intenationally.

Sin é wrote:Is it not similar to having a salary cap? Part of the agreement is that the RRW have to play in the Pro12 & Heineken Cup - its not as if they are not being offered alternative competitions. Their Pro12 colleagues seem confident that there will be a competition next year (the Provinces & Scottish teams are extending player contracts).

Think of it like this:
You own the worldwide franchise rights for Poorfour Pizza. I buy the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland and Quinners buys the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in England.

If Quinners decided to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland, would you try and stop him. And if you did do you think he would be able to take legal action against you (or me) for attempts to prevent him trade in an EU country?

No, it's nothing like that. You're thinking like a union again. To push the pizza analogy further than it wants to go, the RRW has a franchise to sell WRU Pizza, a crucial part of which is the WRU capturing orders centrally and paying RRW to deliver them (this is the equivalent of the earnings from the Pro12 and HEC tv rights). WRU can't tell RRW how big those orders can be but is still in effect demanding that they set up their operation at a particular size. Oh, and it's saying that it'll pay for the store managers, but only if it can take money out of the till to do so.

But RRW want to open a Welsh franchise of RFU pizza, who can tell them what orders they'd get. Only the IRB rules don't allow it. The question is, would a European court regard it as restraint of trade for the IRB to dictate that there can only be one pizza franchise in any country? And will they take into account the quality of the incumbent franchisor's proposition?

Irish Londoner wrote:Looking at the wider ramifications of this, let's assume that a court decides that the regions can join up with the Jeff to form a league and do not need the agreement/permission of their sports national or international governing bodies to do so as long as there's another league willing to have them -  such a ruling gives carte blanche to other sports to do the same so very shortly you would assume that the big clubs of football would be doing the same, e.g. Celtic and Rangers into the English league, the top Dutch and Belgian sides into the French league and possibly a whole new top tier European league with the usual subjects from the Champions League joining up.
A very brave court decision and one heck of a can of worms to open intenationally.

And it won't happen. They may demand to be allowed in the RCC. And it wouldn't be that you don't need a union's approval. It will be they'll need a good reason not to approve and in this case it wasn't good enough (which it probably is).

All this talk of pizza is making hungry

Does anybody - and I mean anybody, including all the unions and club bodies - actually want a breakaway tournament with 2 or 3 nations in it? I don't think so.

One interpretation of the IRB pronouncement is that they are pointing everyone back to the last point at which there was a proposal that included all the countries and had a realistic chance of being resolvable. The FFR's move is - in my opinion - the most nakedly political move that anyone has made, and if Rees is right the IRB appear to recognise that.

This might be the equivalent of telling a bunch of squabbling children to sort themselves out.

The only thing to interpret from the IRB directive is that an Anglo welsh league is a non runner with out the WRU agreeing to it. As has been mentioned I don't think the RFU were particularly keen on it either. It was a means to destabilise the Rabo and resurrect the RCC from the PRL and BT.

Just seen an article with that lad Robson from the Saints saying things are very close.

Standulstermen wrote:Just seen an article with that lad Robson from the Saints saying things are very close.

Shhhh! Don't tell anyone!

He also came across as a bit of a nutter previously so I'm not holding my breath Doc. Hopefully he is right. That said the same article said it would be called the Rugby Champions Cup! Can we all at least see that is a Poopie name?

Standulstermen wrote:The only thing to interpret from the IRB directive is that an Anglo welsh league is a non runner with out the WRU agreeing to it. As has been mentioned I don't think the RFU were particularly keen on it either. It was a means to destabilise the Rabo and resurrect the RCC from the PRL and BT.

Just seen an article with that lad Robson from the Saints saying things are very close.

I don't think anybody actually wants a breakaway Anglo-Welsh league (except perhaps the RRW), or even the RCC. But the PRL (and LNR, while they were on that side of the fence) needed something that was a sufficiently credible alternative to get the ERC and Celtic unions to accept that change in the status quo was necessary to make that happen. Nothing was offered until the RCC was announced. I don't think it was meant to "destabilise the Rabo", unless by that you mean "get the Rabo unions to consider negotiating instead of going 'la-li-la-li-la we're not listening'".

It wasn't the most friendly negotiating tactic, but then neither is refusing to negotiate meaningfully for 5 years. The pot and the kettle are both black. The RCC did its job and it looked like we were very close to agreement on something before the FFR decided to flex their muscles and made a mess of it.

Where did you see this article?

Standulstermen wrote:He also came across as a bit of a nutter previously so I'm not holding my breath Doc. Hopefully he is right. That said the same article said it would be called the Rugby Champions Cup! Can we all at least see that is a Poopie name?

Allan Robson is Chief Exec at Saints.  Allan is OK I think.  

I agree the 'RCC' is not a great (or good, or mediocre) name.  Should be called the Grey Cup!  it works for the CFL and can work for us.    Maybe we can get a beer company to be the sponsor and we call it the Heineken Cup?  What do you think?  Just trying to be out of the box.

I don't subscribe to the PRL wanting to destroy the Pro12.

I think with the RCC looking a non starter they were desperate to fill the gaps in the fixture list and the
Anglo-Welsh league was the booby prize

In their desperation to get the required fixtures they couldn't care less about the collateral damage.
Not a great attitude but falls short of wanting to destroy another league

Whoever the sponsor is with buy the naming rights. Who calls is the European Rugby Cup? No-one. It's the Heineken Cup. I would have gone for Awesomo Cup or possibly Super-Dooper Cup

geoff999rugby wrote:I don't subscribe to the PRL wanting to destroy the Pro12.

I think with the RCC looking a non starter they were desperate to fill the gaps in the fixture list and the
Anglo-Welsh league was the booby prize

In their desperation to get the required fixtures they couldn't care less about the collateral damage.
Not a great attitude but falls short of wanting to destroy another league  

I don't think it was ever really on the cards.What they wanted was for the Regions to stay in the pro12 and play in the RCC (hopefully with everyone else). Adding 4 teams to the Jeff is a really convoluted was of getting 8 extra fixtures when they could just have a cup. Taking about the league probably was just a pressure tactic.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/saints-chief-executive-robson-believes-european-competition-deal-is-close-1-5798063

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:Is it not similar to having a salary cap? Part of the agreement is that the RRW have to play in the Pro12 & Heineken Cup - its not as if they are not being offered alternative competitions. Their Pro12 colleagues seem confident that there will be a competition next year (the Provinces & Scottish teams are extending player contracts).

Think of it like this:
You own the worldwide franchise rights for Poorfour Pizza. I buy the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland and Quinners buys the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza in England.

If Quinners decided to sell Poorfour Pizza in Ireland, would you try and stop him. And if you did do you think he would be able to take legal action against you (or me) for attempts to prevent him trade in an EU country?

Completely missed the point again. You continue with this idea (at least you put across the idea) that legally there is any relationship between a union and the rights for viewing rugby in that country.

To follow that analogy, you actually buy the rights to sell Poorfour Pizza MADE in Ireland. Quinners buys the rights to sell the Pizza made in England. If Quinners decides to sell his English made pizza in Ireland that's his choice. If he tried to sell Pizza made in Ireland anywhere you would have a case against him.

We seem to go through this every few months. You claim you can't sell the viewing rights in a country without asking the union's approval, I pull out the IRB regulations, you misquote them and avoid the parts that clearly point out you're wrong, finally once it's made so clear there is no way out you move seemlessly onto something else without admitting you're wrong at all. And then the cycle begins again a few months later.

also how is it like a salary cap? The salary caps are mutually agreed by the parties they're inflicted on. You can't go to court to complain about something you agreed to. If one of the regions didn't sign up to a salary cap and the other tried to force them then they could challenge it in court.

That's the thing with all this, you only find out if it's legal if someone challenges it.

I think you've taken a different tack to what I was getting at. The way I view it is:

The IRB owns Rugby Union just like Poorfour owns Poorfour Pizza. Quinners can sell Pizza in Ireland, but he can't sell Poorfour Pizza because I already have the franchise/agency for it in Ireland.

The EU/or law courts would recognise that Poorfour & I had those rights to Ireland.

Similarly with the Regions - the WRU/IRB are not going to stop the Regions playing/selling some sort of rugby in Wales - the thing is that it won't be Rugby Union

Don't the rugby unions and clubs also agree to abide by the rules and regulations to the WRU/IRB. They in turn provide refs, administrators and most importantly insurance.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

But I think I've lost you.

Don't most franchises run themselves? So the regions would be free to sell pizza to whoever they want. You seem to be suggesting they would have to ask the WRU who they're allowed to sell pizza to. And the WRU can, no a whim, stop..... no, I think I've lost it again.

On the last bit, the Regions will follow the IRB regulations etc. They may also take the WRU to court if they believe they've acted unlawfully. I haven't seen the IRB reg that says they're above the law As for signing up...isn't that point of the PA?

Just a quick round up of what it says in the papers today:

Gerry Thornley - IRFU & Scots were always behind FFR & Camou because of his support of the Heineken Cup (he mentions IRFU & SRU because apparently the PRL had approached the Irish Provinces to join in the RCC which they turned down).

Rugby Paper saying that the PRL/BT offered the Big 3 Irish Provinces 2m per season to play in the Cup thingy. I'd imagine the Welsh would not be too happy about that since they were only getting 1.6m per season over 3 years.

They also say something which I don't get - thats its Toulouse is worried about FIRA in charge of European Rugby.

and finally, the French journalist who has broken a lot of these has some interesting conversations with a Welsh journalist.

Arnaud David ‏@ArnaudDavidSO 4h
@simonrug @sphagc @walleytime French clubs will have to take part. It's written at the beginning of the new agreement signed by LNR and FFR

Stephen ‏@dailywaffleUK 4h
@ArnaudDavidSO @simonrug @sphagc @walleytime Ah, but which French clubs?

Simon Thomas ‏@simonrug 4h
@dailywaffleUK @ArnaudDavidSO @sphagc @walleytime I think Arnaud means the Top14 ones and from experience I bow to his local knowledge.

Arnaud David ‏@ArnaudDavidSO 4h
@simonrug @dailywaffleUK @sphagc  Stade Français whose president is close to Bruce Craig, is the only one still campaigning for RCC. So…

He also said that Paul Goze's support should be interpreted as negotiation tactic with FFR.

I don't think the PRL wanted to destroy the Rabo but I think they wanted to create enough doubt around its future that the other unions were forced to concede. Thunor the unions had conceded a brave bit before mention of the Anglo welsh league so I don't think of it as an acceptable negotiating tactic (effective yes and I don't think the unions were blameless around the negotiations before we go back there).

Hopefully Robson is right and this all gets sorted. I'm less convinced it was just the French throwing a spanner in the works so I won't hold my breath. Hopefully Heineken continue their interest in any new competition and I sincerely hope (but doubt) that the broadcast rights of any new contest are out out to tender and let's get a bidding war

Poorfour wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:The only thing to interpret from the IRB directive is that an Anglo welsh league is a non runner with out the WRU agreeing to it. As has been mentioned I don't think the RFU were particularly keen on it either. It was a means to destabilise the Rabo and resurrect the RCC from the PRL and BT.

Just seen an article with that lad Robson from the Saints saying things are very close.

I don't think anybody actually wants a breakaway Anglo-Welsh league (except perhaps the RRW), or even the RCC. But the PRL (and LNR, while they were on that side of the fence) needed something that was a sufficiently credible alternative to get the ERC and Celtic unions to accept that change in the status quo was necessary to make that happen. Nothing was offered until the RCC was announced. I don't think it was meant to "destabilise the Rabo", unless by that you mean "get the Rabo unions to consider negotiating instead of going 'la-li-la-li-la we're not listening'".

It wasn't the most friendly negotiating tactic, but then neither is refusing to negotiate meaningfully for 5 years. The pot and the kettle are both black. The RCC did its job and it looked like we were very close to agreement on something before the FFR decided to flex their muscles and made a mess of it.

Where did you see this article?

Poorfour, the Anglo/Welsh League is only a fall back position for RRW, as was explained by Andrew Hore and Mark Davies at half time in the Ospreys Scarlets game last Friday, they said that they had negotiated an extra £1M per Region each year and extra for the Irish and Scots for the RCC, that deal had nothing to do with the AW.

Stand, the Anglo-welsh league is far more a product of the tensions between the WRU and RRW than any play by the PRL. It would have no meaning if the RRW weren't looking for leverage to get a workable deal out of the WRU. It creates all sorts of issues for English clubs and the PRL know that, but by offering it they help out the regions, gain their support, and keep the whole debate live.

Poorfour wrote:Stand, the Anglo-welsh league is far more a product of the tensions between the WRU and RRW than any play by the PRL. It would have no meaning if the RRW weren't looking for leverage to get a workable deal out of the WRU. It creates all sorts of issues for English clubs and the PRL know that, but by offering it they help out the regions, gain their support, and keep the whole debate live.

Yes Poorfour, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours especially if it's in both our interests

I'm not suggesting the PRL are the only ones engaging in murky tactics by the way. The PRL didn't create the issues in wales but they exploited them. I genuinely don't believe they were ever serious on an AW league and rather used it to try and get their European comp.

You could just as easily say Camou/the other celts didn't invite the RFU to their meeting in a bid to entrench positions and wrong more concessions out of a new euro comp. I suspect everyone will be claiming victory at the end anyway so who knows for sure

HammerofThunor wrote:Sorry for the misunderstanding

But I think I've lost you.

Don't most franchises run themselves? So the regions would be free to sell pizza to whoever they want. You seem to be suggesting they would have to ask the WRU who they're allowed to sell pizza to. And the WRU can, no a whim, stop..... no, I think I've lost it again.

On the last bit, the Regions will follow the IRB regulations etc. They may also take the WRU to court if they believe they've acted unlawfully. I haven't seen the IRB reg that says they're above the law :)As for signing up...isn't that point of the PA?

My point is that if you are a member of an organisation, you have Articles of Association/Constitution which everyone agrees to and you have to abide those rules and regulations if you want to remain part of that organisation, or partake in their competitions.

The Welsh Regions can leave the WRU/IRB and join the English teams in the PRL/RFU. If they do that though, they are no longer members of the IRB and they are no longer playing Rugby Union. If they stay within Rugby Union, they have to abide by the IRB's rules and regulations. They are not being forced to do remain within Rugby Union, its up to themselves on that one.

Standulstermen wrote:I don't think the PRL wanted to destroy the Rabo but I think they wanted to create enough doubt around its future that the other unions were forced to concede. Thunor the unions had conceded a brave bit before mention of the Anglo welsh league so I don't think of it as an acceptable negotiating tactic (effective yes and I don't think the unions were blameless around the negotiations before we go back there).

Hopefully Robson is right and this all gets sorted. I'm less convinced it was just the French throwing a spanner in the works so I won't hold my breath. Hopefully Heineken continue their interest in any new competition and I sincerely hope (but doubt) that the broadcast rights of any new contest are out out to tender and let's get a bidding war

Typical Allan trying to make it more difficult for people to do ought but what he wants.  In this case embarrass people a bit more if they don't complete the job.  The job, in this case, is the settlement. Sometimes this can be an effective tactic.  Exactly his style. Good on Robson.  

I think it's silly to think the Premiership clubs want to destroy the Rabo.  A bit paranoid, methinks.  The Premiership need the Celtic League and the converse is also true.  The Celtic League brought order out of chaos and improved profitibility for everyone.  The premiership clubs might be dumb, but they are not stupid.

Sin é wrote:

My point is that if you are a member of an organisation, you have Articles of Association/Constitution which everyone agrees to and you have to abide those rules and regulations if you want to remain part of that organisation, or partake in their competitions.

The Welsh Regions can leave the WRU/IRB and join the English teams in the PRL/RFU. If they do that though, they are no longer members of the IRB and they are no longer playing Rugby Union. If they stay within Rugby Union, they have to abide by the IRB's rules and regulations. They are not being forced to do remain within Rugby Union, its up to themselves on that one.

Well, obviously. However, if the RRW go to court and if they win then the application of those rules/regulations are considered unlawful and will need to be changed. To big ifs and neither likely to occur. Butt that's. And the PRL have been consistent saying the union approval is needed (and if none is forth coming then they won't be involved in Europe)

PRLongshanks: What news of the Celts?
AP Club Subject: Nothing new, Your Majesty. We've sent Journos to speed any word.
PRLongshanks: I heard the word in France where I was fighting to expand your future kingdom. The word, my son, is that our entire Euro strategy is *annihilated*.

PRLongshanks: Not the TV rights. My scouts tell me their TV rights are miles away and no threat to us. TV rights cost money. Use up the Irish. The dead cost nothing.

PRLongshanks: The trouble with the Celtic nations is that they're full of Celts.

PRLongshanks: Attack the ERC.
AP Club Subject: I beg pardon, sire. Won't we hurt our own teams?
PRLongshanks: Yes... but we'll hurt theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack.

[instituting the right of Prima Interest]
PRLongshanks: If we can't get them out, we'll bribe them out.
IRB negotiator: Milord, the Global game might be taken hostage or Rugby Union's very existence put in jeopardy.
PRLongshanks: Oh, the RFU would be most distressed by that. Uh, but in truth, if it were to be killed, we would soon find the king of France a useful ally against the Celts. You see, as king, you must find the good in any situation.

Those French buggers were a piece of work.

The Great Aukster wrote:PRLongshanks: What news of the Celts?
AP Club Subject: Nothing new, Your Majesty. We've sent Journos to speed any word.
PRLongshanks: I heard the word in France where I was fighting to expand your future kingdom. The word, my son, is that our entire Euro strategy is *annihilated*.

PRLongshanks: Not the TV rights. My scouts tell me their TV rights are miles away and no threat to us. TV rights cost money. Use up the Irish. The dead cost nothing.

PRLongshanks: The trouble with the Celtic nations is that they're full of Celts.

PRLongshanks: Attack the ERC.
AP Club Subject: I beg pardon, sire. Won't we hurt our own teams?
PRLongshanks: Yes... but we'll hurt theirs as well. We have reserves. Attack.

[instituting the right of Prima Interest]
PRLongshanks: If we can't get them out, we'll bribe them out.
IRB negotiator: Milord, the Global game might be taken hostage or Rugby Union's very existence put in jeopardy.
PRLongshanks: Oh, the RFU would be most distressed by that. Uh, but in truth, if it were to be killed, we would soon find the king of France a useful ally against the Celts. You see, as king, you must find the good in any situation.

Outstanding, Auk, I can actually here the voice in my head as I read that! I salute you, sir

That piece by Robson is more nonsense attempting to muddy the waters. The only european cup next year is one based on the agreement of the 5 unions. this is an interim measure for one year in order to get enough time to make a proper renegotiation / revamp of the european cup. The PRL have lost all respect and influence and have nothing left to negotiate with. their rejection of the massive compromise brokered by Mew has left them isolated and without any goodwill from anyone.

The Times's Celeb Watch column has a useful reminder for us all today. "'An insider'," it informs us, is "a phrase in journalism, as CW has cautioned you before, that could very well mean 'a balloon on a stick with a face drawn on it that we keep in the office and use in conjunction with a Magic 8-Ball.'"

Something to remember for the next round of unattributed quotes.

To be honest TJ I'm almost past caring at this stage.

Ulsterman - I know. Its got very tedious and few folk come out of this well

I'm sure that we could do a version of this: http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/mediafordummies.jpg that we could use with all media spouting relating to European cup club rugby - over to someone more creative than me

TJ wrote:That piece by Robson is more nonsense attempting to muddy the waters.  The only european cup next year is one based on the agreement of the 5 unions.  this is an interim measure for one year in order to get enough time to make a proper renegotiation / revamp of the european cup.  The PRL have lost all respect and influence and have nothing left to negotiate with. their rejection of the massive compromise brokered by Mew has left them isolated and without any goodwill from anyone.

Why do you persist in stating that a 5 nations ERC is set in stone and there is no way that is going to change.

This is clearly not the case.
Things are happening behind the scenes and it is far from certain what we will end up with in ANY of the 6N

"Based on" not set in stone. It is clear this is the case. Does not have to be ERC. However this is the only template for next years cup. When 5 have agreed and 1 refuses to negotiate then what the 5 have agreed is what will happen. There is flexibility in this but only within the template agreed.

But the 1 is talking to the 4 and they are not discussing the weather

Things can, and I expect will, change

There could be change for sure. Hence "based on". I think the PRL now realise how much of a horlicks they have made of it and of course everyone want the english clubs to join in so will try hard to get them on board. However the framework is agreed and in place and that is that. Its the only game in town. A european cup based on the agreement the 5 have made which in turn is based on the structure agreed in the Mew mediation. Room for the english clubs to join in if they want. No room for the english clubs to continue in their attempts to dictate the format.

I just think you are wrong period.

Negotiations mean compromises by all parties that includes the Pro12 Unions
To think otherwise is delusional

It is not inconceivable the French not the English end up being the ones on the outside I a 6N run event
It is not inconceivable the ERC goes ahead with joke Welsh and French teams and the tournament is a complete flop
It is not inconceivable that the RCC takes place

You can cling to your hopes but it ain't gonna happen. Everyone else has compromised as much as they will and the PRL remain intransigent. Hence the fat the 5 are going ahead with or without the PRL. If the PRL compromise they will be able to join the rest otherwise its a 5N european cup.

What hope am I clinging to I am an Irish Ulster supporter  

I just believe that there is a lot going on behind the scenes and all of the above are possible outcomes.
To think the wind is set fair for a 5 Nations ERC with credible Welsh and French teams and nothing will stop that is fantasy land.

There is a lot of hard negotiating to occur yet and this sorry tale will have a last minute twist to it mark my words

Sorry geoff. I was mixing you up with others

TJ wrote:  Hence the fat the 5 are going ahead with or without the PRL.  

That's not what was reported in yesterday's newspapers

The Welsh regions have signed a heads of agreement with Premiership Rugby, binding them to a mutual policy on Europe: neither will play in the Heineken Cup or whatever it turns into without the other. If there is no resolution on a tournament for next season by 31 January, they will start arranging an Anglo-Welsh league.

There was no compromise. The PRL couldn't agree to the suggested format as they would have to breach the BT deal. They'd prefer to go for at least a season without European rugby than breach a contract.

The 'ERC' were either testing to see how tight the contract was, or were trying to manipulate their public image through the media. It certainly appears to have worked on some of the more suggestable.

As far as we're aware no contracts on competitions have been signed. The only contracts that have are for TV. The press releases (we've seen neither contract) were for 'any future European competition involving the English' (BT) and 'HEC and ACC' (Sky).

But that's it so far. Considering neither competition was definitely continuing it suggests (to me) that there is more wiggle room in the Sky deal than the BT deal. So IF th English are involved their games will be on BT. If not...whatever.

So to give up 4o% of your places, to give up significant % of revenue, to allow home advantage in the playoffs was no compromise?

TJ wrote:So to give up 4o% of your places, to give up significant % of revenue, to allow home advantage in the playoffs was no compromise?

No because it couldn't be agreed because of TV deals.

If I say to you "ok, we'll compromise, I give you everything you ask for EXCEPT the one thing you contractually need. Deal?"

So you could argue it was a compromise, but it was a cowpat meaningless compromise for propaganda purposes only. And it clearly worked for some.

Thunor, then I retort - "why on earth did you bind yourself in like that? That wasn't particularly smart, nor likely to be in the best interests of us all? Why should i negotiate any more with you?"

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Thunor, then I retort - "why on earth did you bind yourself in like that?  That wasn't particularly smart, nor likely to be in the best interests of us all?  Why should i negotiate any more with you?"

That's not the argument. The argument is that they turned down a reasonable offer. They didn't.

If the fact that they've aready sold the rights to any of their European games to someone else is an issue then just knock it on the head. And it was smart if they wanted to force a move from the status quo. The previous couldn't be just renewed because it HAD to change. If you're willing to do without European rugby for a few seasons then there was nothing wrong with it. If they were bluffing and would have liked to get out of it then it was stupid. Everything they've said suggests they were prepared for no European rugby.

HammerofThunor wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Thunor, then I retort - "why on earth did you bind yourself in like that?  That wasn't particularly smart, nor likely to be in the best interests of us all?  Why should i negotiate any more with you?"

That's not the argument. The argument is that they turned down a reasonable offer. They didn't.

If the fact that they've aready sold the rights to any of their European games to someone else is an issue then just knock it on the head. And it was smart if they wanted to force a move from the status quo.  The previous couldn't be just renewed because it HAD to change. If you're willing to do without European rugby for a few seasons then there was nothing wrong with it. If they were bluffing and would have liked to get out of it then it was stupid. Everything they've said suggests they were prepared for no European rugby.

Whatever else has been said, sensible commentators of the game now seem in agreement that it will be an entirely counter-productive move for the England team in the year before their own RWC. It may prove sensible for PRL, yet once again they're shown to be working entirely in their own self-interest with little thought for owt else