Leinster v Northampton

by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:43 am

First topic message reminder :

Team in an hour or so. Not expecting too many changes.

Kind of anti climactic really. What can we do to them that we didn't last week?

Big crowd of 45000 or so might help.

NH should be seriously fired up after that shaming at home, and Leinster would have to be a LITTLE bit complacent. Expecting the scores to be a lot closer.

Hopefully we are pro enough to get the job done. Any win will do. we don't need anything fancy.

by Kingshu Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:33 pm

Saints V Leinster,
Is it becoming one of the better H-cup rivalries?

H-cup final, Saints with big half time lead, Leinster make one of the greatest come backs to beat them.
next meeting Leinster humiliate Saints in front of their own fans, week later Saints get revenge beating Leinster in front of 50,000 of their own fans.

If they meet again at a later stage? or next year? it should be good.

by Feckless Rogue Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:35 pm

Irish provinces bring a level of speed and intensity to the HC that is higher than anything Saints would be used to in the Premiership. They just failed to match it the first week, and were wiped out by a nearly flawless Leinster on the day. Although they have plenty of internationals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

This time Saints turned up, their pack more than matched ours, and the conditions blunted any advantage Leinster may have had in the backs. I don't think Leinster played particularly badly. They were just beaten fair and square at the breakdown all day, and then couldn't break down that defence in the end. But we nearly did. Leinster were actually inches away from stealing a win.

Looking at the pools, I don't think Northampton can qualify. But they could drop down and win the Amlin, like Leinster did last year.

by **Notch** Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:45 pm

Same as last year- there's a different kind of pressure to playing in front of your home crowd and it's the game in Round 3 Ulster/Leinster went into targeting at the start of the tournament.

Its always hard to motivate yourself to play the same way after a massive win and not allow a bit of a complacency to sneak in. I didn't see anything like the same focus for Leinster this week in terms of executing their basics.

by Engine#4 Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:29 pm

IronMike wrote:
Notch wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:Very true, when i'm down at the Scarlet's and I hear people booing, it really annoys me i just want to boo at them. The french are the worse for it (booing) and the Irish are usually the best (not booing), the RDS, Thomand and Ravenhill always a great crowd. Just made a bad mood at the Aviva I thought.

Thats it in a nutshell- games in the Aviva are always big occasions, marketed as such and the ratio of people who go to rugby all the time and have this great rugby tradition ingrained in their psyche and people who are new to the game and just having a day out is a lot more even than a normal provincial home game.

As an Irish fan, it really pains me and embarrasses me whenever I hear the fans of an Irish side booing the kicker. It really hurts. But to be profitable we have to get the kind of fans who are likely to boo the kicker into the grounds. It's a sad, sad thing that we can't have popularity and tradition at the same time.

From what I can tell with Irish fans, you're great at respecting the kicker, so long as the kick isn't the match deciding one. Think Halfpenny in 2012, Cruden a few weeks ago and so on.

True, there are generally noticeably more boos ringing out the later it is in a close game. Usually it only really gets out of hand at Irish grounds when a contentious decision is involved like the two examples you cite (penalty given against Ferris for a one-legged tip tackle and Crudens shaky knees earning him a retake). I don't understand the booing personally. It doesn't put kickers off, they are prepared for it and used to it. Several have said they find deathly silence from a big crowd infinitely more off-putting.

Good performance by Northampton yesterday, you just knew they were going to turn up. Healy and O'Brien were a massive loss to Leinster, they can make do without one but not both against the better teams. Couldn't help but be a little happy for Elliot getting his try at the end, he looked like he was in tears when he was taken off last week.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:51 pm

Great game of rugby - well played both sides clap

by bedfordwelsh Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:24 pm

Do most top class kickers actually get affected by it or is it just us old timers who find it 'just not rugger'.

Jinks always said he blocked it out and imagined he was back in his old field practicing, Farrell said he would rather a noise than dead silence.

So just wondering.

by stub Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:48 pm

I reckon that it's just not rugger. I don't think that booing generally gets to kickers but rather that the pressure of the occasion.

by bedfordwelsh Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:56 pm

The thing is years ago you had smaller International grounds, Arms Park, Landsdowne less capacity at Twickenham etc and the majority of the fans that went were rugby fans. Fans who had played the game, coached, watched etc as a way of life.

With the increase in stadia capacity there are more and more 'casual' supporters, especially at Internationals who are mainly there just for the day on the pop.

You only have to walk down St Marys Street on watch day and look at the souless corporate bars such as Walkabout, Witherspoons and O'Niells to see them cram packed with lots of people who have little or know interest in the rugby, you have to go off the beaten track a bit to find a proper rugby pub.

by The Saint Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:06 pm

Which pubs would you suggest Bedford? I last watched an international in Live Lounge and I really like the atmosphere. Pretty much had everyone in the club spill beer on me at one point though, seeing as it was that packed.

by bedfordwelsh Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:18 pm

Saint,

Im honesty I think you would have good time in most due to they all be crammed packed and its all down to individual prefernce I guess but I normally use the Owain Glyndwr and the Wales England game in there last season was great.

Thing that peevs me right off with Cardiff is a lot of the pubs won't let you in with rugby shirt on after the game I know its because of its location and after the game a lot of the night time people are heading into town but hang about you got 70 odd thousand people most with rugby tops on idiots.

by stub Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:33 pm

We went to a Brains pub near the prison one time before the match. That was a proper rugby pub from memory. Half a mile out of the centre. I've got it starting with an "N". The Neville?? (In Cardiff)

by brennomac Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:38 pm

Engine#4 wrote:
IronMike wrote:
Notch wrote:
Jhamer25 wrote:Very true, when i'm down at the Scarlet's and I hear people booing, it really annoys me i just want to boo at them. The french are the worse for it (booing) and the Irish are usually the best (not booing), the RDS, Thomand and Ravenhill always a great crowd. Just made a bad mood at the Aviva I thought.

Thats it in a nutshell- games in the Aviva are always big occasions, marketed as such and the ratio of people who go to rugby all the time and have this great rugby tradition ingrained in their psyche and people who are new to the game and just having a day out is a lot more even than a normal provincial home game.

As an Irish fan, it really pains me and embarrasses me whenever I hear the fans of an Irish side booing the kicker. It really hurts. But to be profitable we have to get the kind of fans who are likely to boo the kicker into the grounds. It's a sad, sad thing that we can't have popularity and tradition at the same time.

From what I can tell with Irish fans, you're great at respecting the kicker, so long as the kick isn't the match deciding one. Think Halfpenny in 2012, Cruden a few weeks ago and so on.

Pains me to say it - and I know he has lots of friends on these boards - but as soon as I saw Jennings in for SOB I feared for the worst. Lots of Leinster team had poor games, but Jennings - great servant though he has been - is way past his best. Good for run of the mill Rabo games but no longer up to HC standard.

That said, all praise to NH after the pasting they got a week ago. Would have been great if we got a try when camped on their line right at the end, but would have been a travesty. And to the moronic blow-in Leinster fans around me who blamed the defeat on Garces, the ref didn't lose us that game - NH played us off the park.

Still see Leinster winning the pool but will be very hard now to get home QF - Ulster, Toulouse/Saracens, Clermont and possibly Munster look the best bets for home QF's.

True, there are generally noticeably more boos ringing out the later it is in a close game. Usually it only really gets out of hand at Irish grounds when a contentious decision is involved like the two examples you cite (penalty given against Ferris for a one-legged tip tackle and Crudens shaky knees earning him a retake). I don't understand the booing personally. It doesn't put kickers off, they are prepared for it and used to it. Several have said they find deathly silence from a big crowd infinitely more off-putting.

Good performance by Northampton yesterday, you just knew they were going to turn up. Healy and O'Brien were a massive loss to Leinster, they can make do without one but not both against the better teams. Couldn't help but be a little happy for Elliot getting his try at the end, he looked like he was in tears when he was taken off last week.

by doctor_grey Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:45 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Irish provinces bring a level of speed and intensity to the HC that is higher than anything Saints would be used to in the Premiership. They just failed to match it the first week, and were wiped out by a nearly flawless Leinster on the day. Although they have plenty of internationals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

This time Saints turned up, their pack more than matched ours, and the conditions blunted any advantage Leinster may have had in the backs. I don't think Leinster played particularly badly. They were just beaten fair and square at the breakdown all day, and then couldn't break down that defence in the end. But we nearly did. Leinster were actually inches away from stealing a win.

Looking at the pools, I don't think Northampton can qualify. But they could drop down and win the Amlin, like Leinster did last year.

Feckless,
I thought it was interesting Saints played some very old fashioned Rugby the other day. Simple straight forward lines, dominate the scrum and line-out, ruck powerfully, maul successfully, play defense. As I said before, against most other teams Saints would have won big. Showed traditional Rugby is not boring Rugby.

I think Saints took Leinster out of their game on Saturday. Leinster couldn't execute because Saints set the tone. Last week Leinster did the same to Saints (even more so). Saints couldn't play their game because Leinster didn't let them. What a grand collision it would be if both teams were executing with just enough room play their game.

I was very proud of my team for coming back after being dominated last week. But also for doing so with all the injuries and some good young developing players.

by Feckless Rogue Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:13 pm

I hope the win spurs Saints on to a great season doc.

by doctor_grey Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:21 pm

Thanks, mate.
Hoping for the best for Leinster as well.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:42 am

Feckless Rogue wrote:Irish provinces bring a level of speed and intensity to the HC that is higher than anything Saints would be used to in the Premiership. They just failed to match it the first week, and were wiped out by a nearly flawless Leinster on the day. Although they have plenty of internationals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I don't know why Saints had no answer to Leinster last week. It concerns me, because there were quite a few England boys in that team, and some of them our better players. It reminded me of the way we looked clueless against Wales when the onslaught started last year (and, further back, the Irish game in the 2011 Six Nations).

It's great that Saints pulled it around this time but I'd rather see evidence of English teams coming back in the same match. At a national level, it was pleasing to see us get a win from behind against the Wallabies, and putting up a fight against New Zealand when they threatened to overwhelm us. If an England contingent including Dickson, Lawes, Hartley, Wood, Clark & Burrell can be in a team which gets washed away 7-40, then it's not much comfort that they can exact revenge a week later. International tournaments like the Six Nations or World Cup don't offer many opportunities for revenge in that time frame. You need to deal with it on the day.

by **rodders** Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:11 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Irish provinces bring a level of speed and intensity to the HC that is higher than anything Saints would be used to in the Premiership. They just failed to match it the first week, and were wiped out by a nearly flawless Leinster on the day. Although they have plenty of internationals, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I don't know why Saints had no answer to Leinster last week. It concerns me, because there were quite a few England boys in that team, and some of them our better players.

Saints looked complacent last week - like they never even analysed Leinster. I think they genuinely thought they would roll them over at Franklin gardens. They looked genuinely shell shocked at the intensity and pace Leinster played at.

This week they got the tactics spot on- they smashed Leinster at the breakdown, and came out of the line much quicker in defence - they won the contact and gain line battle hands down and consequently Leinster couldn't dictate the pace the way they did last week.

by Geordie Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:23 am

Yeah i think your right Rodders...it was saints physicality that stood out for me. They were brutal at times, and their defence was very impressive.

by GunsGerms Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:57 am

Good performance from Northamption. Would be tough for any team to sustain those levels of physicality week in week out but they deserved the win no question. A nice reminder for Leinster just how tough this tournament is. Hopefully they turn it around and still win the group.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:28 am

I'm guessing now but I wouldn't have thought many HC winners had been beaten at home in the pool stage?

I know this season has been quite volatile with reverse results but in previous tournies I know a home loss used to be pretty much fatal.

by **rodders** Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:38 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I'm guessing now but I wouldn't have thought many HC winners had been beaten at home in the pool stage?

Good question but if you are correct we can rule Toulouse and Leinster out of the running which is handy.....

by GunsGerms Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:43 am

rodders wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I'm guessing now but I wouldn't have thought many HC winners had been beaten at home in the pool stage?

Good question but if you are correct we can rule Toulouse and Leinster out of the running which is handy.....

and Northampton.

by Mickado Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:58 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I'm guessing now but I wouldn't have thought many HC winners had been beaten at home in the pool stage?

I know this season has been quite volatile with reverse results but in previous tournies I know a home loss used to be pretty much fatal.

Nobody has ever won all of their games in a HC season though, so every winner has lost a game somewhere. Leinster are 2 from 2 away games so far...

First time in since the match. Fair play to Saints, well worth their win, had we nicked it at the end it would have been robbery, I wouldn't have been complaining mind you!

by thebandwagonsociety Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:14 am

Good performance by Northampton. The controlled the breakdown and the tight five.
Leinster fell back into their classic eagerness to throw the ball wide too soon when Leinster should only try to do that once the battle up front is at least parity. The back line then had plenty of passes behind players all too often which allowed Saints to come up and pressure. Rob was poor. Jennings was very poor and this was the first game where I thought he started to look his age. McCarthy was below par and Leo could have added more fight to the coalface.
Also our kicking was terrible, way to far to actually contest the catch and a slow defensive line allowed the saints to pick their point of attack.
Wasn't happy with how the Leinster started the second half, MOC should have had them into a frenzy but they appeared to be stuck in the mud (little motivation to do the dirty work, the basics and then forcing the backline play when it wasn't on).
Saints away support was terrific, loud, vocal, exactly what you want to pass onto the team to spur them on.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:18 am

Mickado wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I'm guessing now but I wouldn't have thought many HC winners had been beaten at home in the pool stage?

I know this season has been quite volatile with reverse results but in previous tournies I know a home loss used to be pretty much fatal.

Nobody has ever won all of their games in a HC season though, so every winner has lost a game somewhere. Leinster are 2 from 2 away games so far...

First time in since the match. Fair play to Saints, well worth their win, had we nicked it at the end it would have been robbery, I wouldn't have been complaining mind you!

I can't believe you just said that,hand in your Leinster fan badge. Hug

by thomh Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:28 am

stub wrote:I reckon that it's just not rugger. I don't think that booing generally gets to kickers but rather that the pressure of the occasion.

If it doesn't actually affect the kickers at all, then isn't a bit indulgent of us (myself included) to act high and mighty about it?

by Standulstermen Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:46 am

Mick Mick Mick laughing

by GunsGerms Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:50 am

thomh wrote:
stub wrote:I reckon that it's just not rugger. I don't think that booing generally gets to kickers but rather that the pressure of the occasion.

If it doesn't actually affect the kickers at all, then isn't a bit indulgent of us (myself included) to act high and mighty about it?

I'd rather people stayed quiet whether it affects kickers or not. It just refelcts badly on yourself to disrespect tradition.

by Pete330v2 Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:08 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
thomh wrote:
stub wrote:I reckon that it's just not rugger. I don't think that booing generally gets to kickers but rather that the pressure of the occasion.

If it doesn't actually affect the kickers at all, then isn't a bit indulgent of us (myself included) to act high and mighty about it?

I'd rather people stayed quiet whether it affects kickers or not. It just refelcts badly on yourself to disrespect tradition.

Agreed Guns. The kickers don't care about the booing, for that matter silence is much more intimidating but it just comes down to respect. Sow the seeds of grass roots respect and it will grow throughout the game from schoolboys to the professionals. It's something we must maintain in our sport.

Anyway, as for the match, I was gutted (as a semi-Leinster fan). I really thought the lads were going to just nick it in the end but it wasn't to be. Good luck Leinster and here's hoping we can have a repeat of the final from 2 years ago but with a different outcome this time Smile

by TJ Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:32 pm

I just watched the game - a cracking game.

Has Hartley matured as captain? A great performance and no niggle. Lawes the same. Disciple was good and it has been a saints weakness in the past

ref very very strict at the breakdown and insisted on a quick release al the time but was much more lenient on truck and trailer I thought

All in all a good advert for the game

by GunsGerms Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:33 pm

Hartley and Lawes tend to get involved in much more niggle when losing as per the last match. Thats the real test of resolve.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:37 pm

TJ wrote:I just watched the game - a cracking game.

Has Hartley matured as captain? A great performance and no niggle. Lawes the same. Disciple was good and it has been a saints weakness in the past

ref very very strict at the breakdown and insisted on a quick release al the time but was much more lenient on truck and trailer I thought

All in all a good advert for the game

I thought he played very well but was poor as captain.NH should have gone for the posts several times and could have killed us off if they had taken their points.It turned out their kicker was having a mare so he accidentally made the right decision but I don't think it was based on any sort of sound logic.

by TJ Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:38 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Hartley and Lawes tend to get involved in much more niggle when losing as per the last match. Thats the real test of resolve.

In the past opponents have been able to niggle to get them to lose the plot and thus give away penalties. Non of that in this match

by **profitius** Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:46 pm

This image shows the fine line between winning and losing. Its taken just when Heaslip is about to spill the ball.

Leinster v Northampton - Page 4 Missed-chance-630x371

Leinster v Northampton - Page 4 Missed-chance-630x371

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/leinster-northampton-analysis-3-1224426-Dec2013/?utm_source=facebook_short

by **RDW** Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:07 pm

Lads - set up an Edinburgh-Leinster match thread, feel free to come on over and join me!

https://www.606v2.com/t50494-edinburgh-v-leinster#2442517

by VinceWLB Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:13 pm

profitius wrote:This image shows the fine line between winning and losing. Its taken just when Heaslip is about to spill the ball.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/leinster-northampton-analysis-3-1224426-Dec2013/?utm_source=facebook_short

Shoking coming from a player of Heaslip's calibre censored

by Feckless Rogue Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:14 pm

Ouch. So close. Heaslip won't be pleased. Even though it was his break that got them up there. He really should have done better there and we'd have robbed Northampton and be cruising towards a home quarter final now.

I think Northampton came with the intention of throwing everything at Leinster and restoring some pride after the week before. That's why they kept declining to kick for goal and going for touch. When it became clear they were dominating and could actually win they started going for the three points. When it turned out the kicker wasn't on form they went back to kicking for touch.

The ref did demand players to release the ball very quickly, which isn't great if you want a game of running rugby. But Leinster failed to deal with it and repeatedly got turned over. When a team is constantly getting pinged for holding on it's normally a sure sign that they're being beaten at the breakdown. And that's not the refs fault.

by **rodders** Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:16 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
TJ wrote:I just watched the game - a cracking game.

Has Hartley matured as captain? A great performance and no niggle. Lawes the same. Disciple was good and it has been a saints weakness in the past

ref very very strict at the breakdown and insisted on a quick release al the time but was much more lenient on truck and trailer I thought

All in all a good advert for the game

I thought he played very well but was poor as captain.NH should have gone for the posts several times and could have killed us off if they had taken their points.It turned out their kicker was having a mare so he accidentally made the right decision but I don't think it was based on any sort of sound logic.

Sorry but I disagree, I thought Hartley knew exactly what he was doing. Shirking the place kicks showed a fair bit of arrogance but it gave Saints a psychological upper hand and rattled Leinster - then late on he took a more pragmatic approach getting Myler to take the points. I thought he showed real maturity as a captain.

by TJ Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:26 pm

I tend to agree with Rodders. He could have changed tack a couple of pens earlier but it was the right call

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:35 pm

TJ wrote:I tend to agree with Rodders. He could have changed tack a couple of pens earlier but it was the right call

Yep as Edwards said - It kept the ball in the Leinster 22 and starved them of possession for longer.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:45 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
TJ wrote:I tend to agree with Rodders. He could have changed tack a couple of pens earlier but it was the right call

Yep as Edwards said - It kept the ball in the Leinster 22 and starved them of possession for longer.

It also allowed us to be within one dropped pass of winning the match but it's impossible to say what would have happened had they taken the kicks.As it turned out the Saints kicker was so off form it was the correct decision but personally I think 95% of the time the kicker does his job and turning down those kicks is a mistake.

Just imagine Heaslip catches that ball and we run in the try,Hartley would be getting slammed for turning down those kick.The decision is either right or wrong and an outside factor like whether or not Leinster were able to take advantage of it doesn't influence the answer imo.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:27 pm

Well done NH. I really thought we would have just enough to win it, and we nearly did. Would have needed a mask and a horse called black bess to pull it off though.

by B91212 Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:25 pm

Really happy with the result, didn't expect it. Thought we would see an improved performance but that Leinster would still be too strong based on last week. Not sure Saints changed their tactics as such, they only really have a plan A and that is what you saw Saturday, it either comes off or it doesn't. Challenge the breakdown & collision, drive the attacking team backwards in the tackle and make the opposition backs play deeper than they want to. Exactly the same way they played against Saracens in the jeff play off last year at Allienz Park when they were the first team to win there. Feel one difference this week was that they were much more ready for the pace of the HC and Leinster in particular, where as last week they were shell shocked after 10 mins and never recovered (although I don't think many teams would have coped with Leinster at the Gardens, was an excellent performance by the Irish team).

Regarding Hartley going for the corner with the scores tight, it's been a tactic for Saints this year in some prem games too. Dowson was doing the same when he was captaining the team whilst Hartley was away with England, must be something they have decided on at a management level. Guess they feel the pressure of playing in the opposition 22 early on is worth it later in the game, even if the scores are tight and they don't always come away with some points. Bit of a high risk tactic especially against a team as good as Leinster (I wanted them to take the points before I realised Myler's radar was faulty), as shown above it was damn fine margins.

Thought Matt O'Conner was pretty respectful in his after match comments clap

.

by doctor_grey Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:02 am

Regarding the Saints Plan A approach, I think it serves to highlight the importance of Ben Foden to the team. He is the most creative and unpredictable attacking threat in the team. When playing on form, one of the best attacking fullbacks in Europe. He opens space for the rest of the team creating more attacking opportunities. Just makes those holes the forwards punch in opposing defences just a hair wider, and can jet through a tiny gap. Really critical player. Changes the game plan from only a Plan A to perhaps a Plan A-and-one-half.

by Mickado Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:13 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Mickado wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I'm guessing now but I wouldn't have thought many HC winners had been beaten at home in the pool stage?

I know this season has been quite volatile with reverse results but in previous tournies I know a home loss used to be pretty much fatal.

Nobody has ever won all of their games in a HC season though, so every winner has lost a game somewhere. Leinster are 2 from 2 away games so far...

First time in since the match. Fair play to Saints, well worth their win, had we nicked it at the end it would have been robbery, I wouldn't have been complaining mind you!

I can't believe you just said that,hand in your Leinster fan badge.

Oh jesus. I'm sorry. I of course just meant that no winner has won all of their games... For my penance I was arise at 5am every morning for the next 8 weeks, flagellate myself for 20 minutes, then turn to Donnybrook and say 20 Hail Denis Hickies...

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:57 am

Okay but you're on thin ice.

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