Sugar Ray today!

Re-watching Robinson v Basillio 2 today. Great middleweight fight. Robinson the matidor and Basillio the dangerous brawler.

I believe Basillio did not have much time for Robinson but did say the man had heart. In the 10th Basillio had Robinson on the ropes and landed 34  clean punches yet Robbo came back in the 11th and handed out a beating. Robinson was 37 years old.

Question

Would 37 year old beat the current batch of middleweights including GGG and seeing as he moved up to face Joey Maxim in the LH division, a fight he was winning on points until heat fatigue set in, would 37 year old Robinson beat 36 year old Froch, Ward in the super middleweight division.

just want to measure how great the man was.

When you say "beat" if you mean 'beat them to a pulp' then I would say yes.

A lot of these title holders today would only be contenders n SRR's time.

At 37 he would stand a chance of beating GGG in a rematch but as he tended to do as he got older would lose the first fight. Don't think he beats Ward aged 37 maybe at 30 when he was giving the rather average Maxim a lesson but again quite unlikely.

I find it hard to measure ray's excellence. His peak by every single account was at welter, but fight footage of him in his pomp is stored in the same vault as grebs.
Only way to really know, is to take accounts from those that were there. So rowley how good was he?

Always tricky pinning down Robinson's true worth as a Middle and Super-Middle (which he was in essence when he boxed Maxim), for me.

I don't think there's any debate that he was above his optimum weight once he got to 160 and that the extra weight took just a little something away from him as a fighter, and his record once he'd stepped up past Welterweight for good bears that out. That said, he was a bit long in the tooth for a lot of his Middleweight title fights, so which of these is the most true; a), Robinsons' Middleweight record and performances were patchy (in comparison to his Welterweight pomp) because he step up reduced his abilities, or b) Robinson's Middleweight record is comparatively patchy not because he wasn't suited to the weight, but merely because he was past his peak for much of it?

I tend to fall somewhere in the middle, I guess. Had he stuck around between 1952 and 1955 we'd have a much more accurate idea, as he was still close enough to his peak years at the time of the Graziano and Maxim fights in my eyes, if perhaps ever so slightly edging towards the end of those peak years.

I'd have to go with Ward to beat him, though, based on size and how he matches up with Robinson in terms of style. Guys such as Turpin and La Motta often looked the stronger man when they fought Ray and he struggled at times with their sheer physicality. Ward is even bigger and stronger than those two, and one of Robinson's weaknesses, inside fighting, is one of Ward's strengths. An additional 8 lb is only going to hinder Ray and favour Ward, I suspect, and I just think Ward's strength and fighting at close quarters, combined with that jab which is almost always thrown as he comes forward, would see him decision Robinson in a similar way to what Turpin did first time out.

Even with an additional 8 lb to carry, Robinson's chances are much, much better against Froch. Ray's got a big speed advantage over Carl and while Froch can box a bit, it's not his bread 'n' butter. A brawling Basilio, a converted Welter, was able to give Robinson kittens, fair enough, but I don't think Froch works at quite the same pace as Carmen did, and he isn't as comfortable fighting right on the inside with his head basically resting on the other man's chest, which is what upset Robinson from time to time. Could see Robinson winning a decision in that one, even if he was knocking on a bit.

The difference between Robinson and Ward is going to be more than 8lbs. Ward weighs 168lbs 30 hours before he fights. How much does Ward weigh when he actually enters the ring? Robinson weighed in at 157 1/2 on the day of his fight with Maxim.

Robinson would be at a major disadvantage in this fight.

88Chris05 wrote:Always tricky pinning down Robinson's true worth as a Middle and Super-Middle (which he was in essence when he boxed Maxim), for me.

I don't think there's any debate that he was above his optimum weight once he got to 160 and that the extra weight took just a little something away from him as a fighter, and his record once he'd stepped up past Welterweight for good bears that out. That said, he was a bit long in the tooth for a lot of his Middleweight title fights, so which of these is the most true; a), Robinsons' Middleweight record and performances were patchy (in comparison to his Welterweight pomp) because he step up reduced his abilities, or b) Robinson's Middleweight record is comparatively patchy not because he wasn't suited to the weight, but merely because he was past his peak for much of it?

I tend to fall somewhere in the middle, I guess. Had he stuck around between 1952 and 1955 we'd have a much more accurate idea, as he was still close enough to his peak years at the time of the Graziano and Maxim fights in my eyes, if perhaps ever so slightly edging towards the end of those peak years.

I'd have to go with Ward to beat him, though, based on size and how he matches up with Robinson in terms of style. Guys such as Turpin and La Motta often looked the stronger man when they fought Ray and he struggled at times with their sheer physicality. Ward is even bigger and stronger than those two, and one of Robinson's weaknesses, inside fighting, is one of Ward's strengths. An additional 8 lb is only going to hinder Ray and favour Ward, I suspect, and I just think Ward's strength and fighting at close quarters, combined with that jab which is almost always thrown as he comes forward, would see him decision Robinson in a similar way to what Turpin did first time out.

Even with an additional 8 lb to carry, Robinson's chances are much, much better against Froch. Ray's got a big speed advantage over Carl and while Froch can box a bit, it's not his bread 'n' butter. A brawling Basilio, a converted Welter, was able to give Robinson kittens, fair enough, but I don't think Froch works at quite the same pace as Carmen did, and he isn't as comfortable fighting right on the inside with his head basically resting on the other man's chest, which is what upset Robinson from time to time. Could see Robinson winning a decision in that one, even if he was knocking on a bit.

I have seen a few fight footage of Robinson working the inside quite superbly. Usualy he would pummel his opponant with both hands to the body and then finish with a left hook to the head. I never knew it was a weakness with him he seemed quite fast doing it.

I think Robinsons main weakness was his defence. He eat a lot of leather against opponants like La Motta and Bassilio fighters who you have to think would not have laid a glove on Leonard or Hearns.

You'll have to direct me to those fights, OneTwo, because I genuinely don't remember Robinson, certainly as a Middleweight upwards, being anything more than decent or serviceable on the inside. He was no weakling and could tie up well in close, but in terms of doing any really top class fighting there, I don't think his inside game was all that great.

Even in the Bobby Dykes fight, often touted as one of the best all-round Robinson displays caught on film, Ray basically never fights on the inside when they get in to a clinch, aside from a brief moment in the third round. Same against Maxim; hints here and there, but generally was just content to hold and smother when they got right in close. Ditto for the Fullmer fight, as well (the third one in any case, which Ray was pretty unlucky to only get a draw in).

As I said, though, it was only a 'weakness' in comparative terms. His speed, footwork, chin, combination punching and accuracy were all so outstanding that his lesser points stood out more acutely, for me at least.

Let's get real. Ray Robinson fought in an era when training consisted of not getting too drunk the night before a fight. Any middleweight in the current top 20 would muller him.

Save to say you're a complete WUM.

88Chris05 wrote:You'll have to direct me to those fights, OneTwo, because I genuinely don't remember Robinson, certainly as a Middleweight upwards, being anything more than decent or serviceable on the inside. He was no weakling and could tie up well in close, but in terms of doing any really top class fighting there, I don't think his inside game was all that great.

Even in the Bobby Dykes fight, often touted as one of the best all-round Robinson displays caught on film, Ray basically never fights on the inside when they get in to a clinch, aside from a brief moment in the third round. Same against Maxim; hints here and there, but generally was just content to hold and smother when they got right in close. Ditto for the Fullmer fight, as well (the third one in any case, which Ray was pretty unlucky to only get a draw in).

As I said, though, it was only a 'weakness' in comparative terms. His speed, footwork, chin, combination punching and accuracy were all so outstanding that his lesser points stood out more acutely, for me at least.

Right there for all to see in Raging Bull, Chris.  Sugar Ray backs big Bob De Niro up against the ropes and unleashes a load of body shots before unleashing that left hook.