What a great contest the HC really is

by TJ Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Upsets, turnarounds, some great games. Anyone can beat anyone - away wins galore.
What a great competition

by asoreleftshoulder Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:10 pm

quinsforever wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
quinsforever wrote:well sorry TJ, but it's just not unequivocally a great contest. there are some great matches. but there are also a lot of very forgettable ones. on the back of a few great matches should we say that this is "good enough"? or should we be aiming for more great matches, more closely contested groups, larger attendances, etc, etc. these comments are completely 100% appropriate on a thread entitled as this one.

You seem to want an unrealistic level of competition,you were on another thread defending the Top 14 despite it not being anywhere near the competition that the HC has proven itself to be.Why the double standard?
yes. top14 clearly works for french clubs, french fans, players in france, and french broadcasters. works spectacularly well i would say if the attendances, money and rumoured EUR100m tv deal are objective measures of its success. and far more of the top14 matches are close-fought matches and sold out, than HC pool stages.

where is the double standard? looks to me like the level of competition (measured by closeness of matches) in top14 and AP are pretty high. HC pool stages on average far less so.

This jumps out as obviously wrong,someone has already posted that 87% of home matches are won in the Top 14 compared to 57% in the HC so far this season.In the Top14 teams often rest their best players for the away matches,where's the competition in that?

I was responding to your comment that it was not a great contest and comparing that with your defense of the Top 14 as a contest,that's the double standard.Show me how you can claim that one comp where the home team wins with boring regularity and teams rest their top players constantly can compare with the HC where the away team wins regularly,you have upsets like Connacht beating Toulouse away,Northampton coming back from a spanking to beat up Leinster in Dublin.You also have Leicester and Munster getting last minute wins in France,Quins winning home and away versus moneybags Metro,Edinburgh recovering from losing at home to beat Gloucester,Cardiff beating Toulon.

You won't find those kind of results in the Top 14,you can point to Oyannax (spelling?) and Grenoble winning against the big temas but when you look closely you'll see the big teams didn't actually play their best players so the competition is compromised and the results tainted.
this. will always be true in HC group stages which is LESS competitive. The weakest teams will be lucky to get a single, maybe ever two wins out of 6 matches. if half the teams won all their matches, and half the teams lost all their matches, the %of away wins would be 50%, and yet you think that is an indication of a better overall measure of how close the teams are? it means absolutely nothing.

That's a pretty poor argument,how many matches do you expect the weaker teams to win,3 maybe 4?Then they wouldn't be the weaker teams.You can't call the Top 14 a competitive league when most of the teams effectively throw a huge proportion of their matches.

If all the French sides were playing strong teams and the home win rate was still 87% then I could agree with you but you can't get past the point that for a large number of matches in that competition teams have little chance of winning.

by quinsforever Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:09 pm

whatever. logic or statistics clearly not your strong points.

as i said, the weakest teams will get 1 or 2 wins. i was highlighting the absurdity of using % home vs away wins as a measure of the competitiveness of a league. the most uncompetitive league in the world could have a 50% away win ratio. do i really need to spell this out?

by TJ Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:49 pm

So far it has been a great contest with. Looking forward to the rest of it. It produces by and large good rugby and good contests.

the HC where the away team wins regularly,you have upsets like Connacht beating Toulouse away,Northampton coming back from a spanking to beat up Leinster in Dublin.You also have Leicester and Munster getting last minute wins in France,Quins winning home and away versus moneybags Metro,Edinburgh recovering from losing at home to beat Gloucester,Cardiff beating Toulon.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:12 am

TJ wrote:

So far it has been a great contest with. Looking forward to the rest of it. It produces by and large good rugby and good contests.
the HC where the away team wins regularly,you have upsets like Connacht beating Toulouse away,Northampton coming back from a spanking to beat up Leinster in Dublin.You also have Leicester and Munster getting last minute wins in France,Quins winning home and away versus moneybags Metro,Edinburgh recovering from losing at home to beat Gloucester,Cardiff beating Toulon.

i adopt the mentality of a professional golfer (ok so its happy gilmore lets keep moving people)...harness energy, block the bad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=squgCYqufuo

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:56 am

quinsforever wrote:whatever. logic or statistics clearly not your strong points.

as i said, the weakest teams will get 1 or 2 wins. i was highlighting the absurdity of using % home vs away wins as a measure of the competitiveness of a league. the most uncompetitive league in the world could have a 50% away win ratio. do i really need to spell this out?

I'm using real world examples while you are basing your argument on a league that doesn't exist.

Theoretically I agree with you 100% but in the real world world the Top 14 isn't competitive because a surprisingly high number of teams basically throw the game when they are away from home,argue against that and not some fictional league that supports your point.

by Exiledinborders Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:09 pm

TJ wrote:

So far it has been a great contest with. Looking forward to the rest of it. It produces by and large good rugby and good contests.
the HC where the away team wins regularly,you have upsets like Connacht beating Toulouse away,Northampton coming back from a spanking to beat up Leinster in Dublin.You also have Leicester and Munster getting last minute wins in France,Quins winning home and away versus moneybags Metro,Edinburgh recovering from losing at home to beat Gloucester,Cardiff beating Toulon.

I was on the edge of my seat watching Saracens against Zebre!

by Bluedragon Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:51 pm

Brennus wrote:Actually there some interesting points here if you can see through the childish waffle. Meritcoratic qualification does need to be introduced only as long there's a change for all nations(notice I didn't say 'leagues'). Whether some people like it or not, the English teams are not as good as they were in the past so a system should be introduced where spots are allocated on recent performances.

I scrolled through all the tedious squabbling...................

There are currently 38 pro teams in European rugby. Thats all that needs to be accomodated.

There must be some way of sorting the messy season into 2 distinct sections - Domestic current leagues eg Sept to Dec - that give you seedings into a following European league ( Jan to June ) ? An elite cup and a second tier cup tournament ? Winners of both cups to qualify for next years european league, all other based on that season's domestic finish.

I always felt the Italians would fit better in a french league, and that the British and Irish should form a 2 tier league. hen join the 2 leagues together for european cup.

That's not going to happen as there's too much self interest, although the Englsih do seem tempted by reliving the old days with the welsh regions as regular opponents

There's people being paid very well to sort out a good product for us who pay our money to watch - on the terrace or on tv. ( or in a box if you're posh ) Don't seem to be doing their job very well.

by Exiledinborders Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:13 am

Bluedragon wrote:
There are currently 38 pro teams in European rugby. Thats all that needs to be accommodated.

There in fact at least 66 pro teams in Europe. There are two divisions in England and France. The second division teams are certainly as strong as the Italian teams playing in the Amlin and probably as strong as Zebre playing in the Heineken.

by beshocked Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:29 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
TJ wrote:

So far it has been a great contest with. Looking forward to the rest of it. It produces by and large good rugby and good contests.
the HC where the away team wins regularly,you have upsets like Connacht beating Toulouse away,Northampton coming back from a spanking to beat up Leinster in Dublin.You also have Leicester and Munster getting last minute wins in France,Quins winning home and away versus moneybags Metro,Edinburgh recovering from losing at home to beat Gloucester,Cardiff beating Toulon.
I was on the edge of my seat watching Saracens against Zebre!

Glad you enjoyed it. Nail biting stuff... Hug

by Dubbelyew L Overate Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:13 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
There are currently 38 pro teams in European rugby. Thats all that needs to be accommodated.
There in fact at least 66 pro teams in Europe. There are two divisions in England and France. The second division teams are certainly as strong as the Italian teams playing in the Amlin and probably as strong as Zebre playing in the Heineken.

There's a few more aswell. 10 teams in the Russian pro league (not all based in Europe, though) and up to another 10 in Georgia (It maybe a mixed pro/semipro league). Romanian league is semi pro, but it could be argued that the superclub, Buceresti, is a pro setup, and generally seems to be better than the Italian Amlinists.

by andyi Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:22 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
There are currently 38 pro teams in European rugby. Thats all that needs to be accommodated.
There in fact at least 66 pro teams in Europe. There are two divisions in England and France. The second division teams are certainly as strong as the Italian teams playing in the Amlin and probably as strong as Zebre playing in the Heineken.

Not all the teams in the RFU championship are fully Pro, some are semi-pro.

by HammerofThunor Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:58 pm

andyi wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
There are currently 38 pro teams in European rugby. Thats all that needs to be accommodated.
There in fact at least 66 pro teams in Europe. There are two divisions in England and France. The second division teams are certainly as strong as the Italian teams playing in the Amlin and probably as strong as Zebre playing in the Heineken.

Not all the teams in the RFU championship are fully Pro, some are semi-pro.

Andyi, what do you think the chances are of a two tier pro structure in England? Licenses given out for pro rugby? Do-able? Good/bad? I know there was some talk of this when the 8 team playoffs were introduced.

by geoff998rugby Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:04 pm

If we are talking abot pro teams in Europe you need to include both Georgia nad Russia - both have pro leagues

by Bluedragon Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:52 pm

However many pro teams there are - and i am delighted that there are others I had omitted - my point was more about whoever is paid to organise it to actually organise it so that us paying spectators get something great to persuade us to part with our hard earned cash and promote our great sport too.

probably only the heineken cup does that consistently, but some English and French league fixtures do that too. maybe the welsh derbies and some of the irish derbies ?

by andyi Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:52 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
andyi wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
Bluedragon wrote:
There are currently 38 pro teams in European rugby. Thats all that needs to be accommodated.
There in fact at least 66 pro teams in Europe. There are two divisions in England and France. The second division teams are certainly as strong as the Italian teams playing in the Amlin and probably as strong as Zebre playing in the Heineken.

Not all the teams in the RFU championship are fully Pro, some are semi-pro.

Andyi, what do you think the chances are of a two tier pro structure in England? Licenses given out for pro rugby? Do-able? Good/bad? I know there was some talk of this when the 8 team playoffs were introduced.

With 24 teams, slim to none. If you went down to 20 it might be possible but you'd still be reliant of benefactors at the bottom of the 2nd tier.

The gap between the Aviva Prem and Championship is massive. The Championship is much smaller in terms of teams,crowds,sponsorship and profile than the Football Conference Premier and that's got plenty of semi-pro teams.

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