Groves v froch II

Was fortunate to meet tony bellew tonight I asked him what he thought about the fight and he said there was nothing wrong with the refs decision and that another 10 secs would have seen a ko. He hunted also that the second fight is pretty much signed for next June/ July as he's fighting on the undercard happy days

Froch LKO similar to last one.

I would not expect Bellew who is one of Froch's best mates to deviate too far from the international superstars script. Do hope it happens though Froch is not going to get anything but worse after a beating like that at his age on the other hand Groves goes in full of confidence knowing he has the tools to beat Froch added to the extra experience of knowing he can handle it at that level. I could see the rematch being even more one sided as the first fight, but this time Groves sticks to his boxing and wins a wide decision against an even more plodding Froch.

More waffle from Tony "windbag" Bellew I think. Sure he would have been stopped in half his fights if he had the same ref Groves did. Only a clown would think it was a good stoppage. Flat out dont believe him that a rematch is all but signed either. He will be boxing on a undercard but I seriosly doubt its one Froch and Groves have agreed to one. June/July is a long ways away.

He will be on many an undercard because his last fight proved he is anything but a headline fighter

I would pick Froch to win the rematch. Groves shows he belongs with the top boys of the division but see Froch taking the fight by a late TKO.

Groves certainly dominated the fight but see Froch jumping on him with more pressure and eventually getting the stoppage.

Problem is Froch is going to take another beating early on, does he really want that at this stage of his career?

Bellew in 'towing the line' shocker.

Froch needs to just take a hit to his ego and say that he has very few fights left and he wants to fight in Vegas. Nobody would think any less of him. I really do think that, given another six months of Groves improving and Froch slowing up, Froch will get marmalised if the rematch happens.

Froch knows he's mortal now, he knows Groves can hurt him and put him down heavily. The question is what can he do to prevent it happening? Answer fir me is: not a lot. He doesn't have the skills.

Froch vs Chavez jnr in Vegas for a pay day. Job done.

What would you do if you were Groves in a rematch?

There are certain truths to this match up: Groves is quicker, more accurate, possibly more powerful, has better reflexes and movement. Froch is tougher, more experienced, has better samina and an unbreakable will.

So with the talent and athleticism to dictate the fight as you want do you
A) Try to blast Froch out early, as Groves is most dangerous early and Froch ften appears nervy and vulnerable. The risk being he survives and in that csae Groves would be in for a painful night having wasted his energy early or
B) Outbox him with an eye on round 12, only looking to finish if the opp presents itself clearly. The risk being that the fight almost certainly will go late where Froch is stronger and Groves is weaker.

I'd work on my stamina first and foremost! Get the early rounds in the bank though and try and hurt Froch. Maybe look to box and move in the mid rounds before surprising him with the additional stamina in the championship rounds. As Froch makes his move late, meet him and chop him down.

Lets not forget, Froch looked like he was flagging at times too. With the right training I see no reason why Groves can't outwork himfor all 12.

catchweight wrote:More waffle from Tony "windbag" Bellew I think. Sure he would have been stopped in half his fights if he had the same ref Groves did. Only a clown would think it was a good stoppage. Flat out dont believe him that a rematch is all but signed either. He will be boxing on a undercard but I seriosly doubt its one Froch and Groves have agreed to one. June/July is a long ways away.

And Tunes.

And maybe MM8....

TopHat24/7 wrote:

catchweight wrote:More waffle from Tony "windbag" Bellew I think. Sure he would have been stopped in half his fights if he had the same ref Groves did. Only a clown would think it was a good stoppage. Flat out dont believe him that a rematch is all but signed either. He will be boxing on a undercard but I seriosly doubt its one Froch and Groves have agreed to one. June/July is a long ways away.

And Tunes.

And maybe MM8....

How's that different?

Got to think Groves will have trained himself into optimum shape for the fight in the first place, and if he couldve kept it up for the full 12 he would, but his punches were clearly not as effective as the bout wore on. Froch may look tired but he only got more dangerous as it wore on.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

catchweight wrote:More waffle from Tony "windbag" Bellew I think. Sure he would have been stopped in half his fights if he had the same ref Groves did. Only a clown would think it was a good stoppage. Flat out dont believe him that a rematch is all but signed either. He will be boxing on a undercard but I seriosly doubt its one Froch and Groves have agreed to one. June/July is a long ways away.

And Tunes.

And maybe MM8....

Never said it was a good stoppage, in fact repeatedly stated I think the reff stopped it about 5 seconds too early. But don't let that ruin your little fantasy!

I do however think it was pretty clear to see that Groves was in deep trouble, and would have been stopped anyway had the reff let it go on for a few more seconds, especially if Froch had smacked him in the side of the head as he was falling to his side.

I think a rematch comes down to how Froch is doing with age... While Groves looked good, I also think Froch did look slow and even more so than he did against Ward who is faster that Groves. So there could also be an element of Froch starting to fade here as well, and if so then he should not take the rematch and just take a couple easier fights and retire, as he has had more than his fair share of punches to the head.

That being said if he does feel still on top of his game, then I see the fight going the same way, with Groves giving him problems and winning rounds early, and Froch imposing him self later and stopping Groves...

Groves hits hard, but you dont throw punches with every single muscle in your body with out getting tired... if you look at the way Groves fights, his punches and his defense, takes up allot of energy. Froch does not burn up much energy, although he will need to watch that right hand this time as next time he might not be so lucky as to get hit with it only a few seconds before the bell.

Froch has never been able to "watch out for that right hand" in his entire career so it's unlikely he's going to start having a nice high tight guard anytime soon.

Froch knows Groves has the skill and power to hurt him so Froch is going to be even more wary second time round. If he goes for Groves early doors he'll walk onto another right hand and Groves won't hang around this time.

Only thing preventing Groves from winning the rematch is his ability/inability to stick to a gameplan but I think the loss and Froch backlash will be a massive wake-up call for him and you'll see an even more focused Groves next time round (not that Froch will sign for the fight)

All pretty pointless hear say in my opinion....I simply can't see the fight happening.

No one takes that many clean solid punches without it having an effect in the long time; lest we forget that was the 2nd tough fight in a row for Carl. Whilst he may have peaked late...he has also always taken a lot of punches in two bouts with Kessler, Taylor fight and Pascal.

With his age, his run of fights and the punishment he took last time out, I just cant see Froch wanting anything to do with Groves again.

It wasn't just the way he was rocked so often in the fight, Carl has always been an awkward opponent, something even Ward said after the fight. He is difficult to catch flush..unless he is trading, yet in that fight Groves timed almost all of his shots to perfection, especially the jab.

I think he has Carl in his pocket and the so called Warrior knows it! Expect Froch to take a swan song fight against Chavez meanwhile fancy Groves to go on and face Stieglitz followed by a late 2014 showdown with DeGale/Bika (whoever holds the strap).

The phrase actions speak louder than words applies to Froch as much as anyone. If he knew he hadnt got lucky and had been dominating the fight as he insists then he would be all over a rematch like like a cheap suit on Mick Hennessy. Hes trying all the excuses and all the old tricks in the playbook to try and avoid it. Not the sign of a confident man. Especially as he probably make more money against Groves than anyone else. Its an easy fight to sell. It only took about a month before his take on the fight was he was dominating it. I cant wait to hear his analysis of what went down in a years time. I really cant wait until he releases his autobiography. It will be priceless.

DAVE667 wrote:Froch has never been able to "watch out for that right hand" in his entire career so it's unlikely he's going to start having a nice high tight guard anytime soon.

Froch knows Groves has the skill and power to hurt him so Froch is going to be even more wary second time round. If he goes for Groves early doors he'll walk onto another right hand and Groves won't hang around this time.

Only thing preventing Groves from winning the rematch is his ability/inability to stick to a gameplan but I think the loss and Froch backlash will be a massive wake-up call for him and you'll see an even more focused Groves next time round (not that Froch will sign for the fight)

I think if he took on Groves again he would certainly have more caution in the early rounds. Personally I think Froch's body language looked too confident early on, he did not look like he had any respect for Groves power.... that soon changed from the 2nd round on though. Where he was still getting hit but because he was more cautious he was not hit as clean...

alot of fighters have said While Froch may not have the best defense, he is very awkward to catch clean.

Froch did get a bit lucky in round 1 as if there was 30 seconds to go he would have been KOed, That was Groves best chance and he probably had Froch Hurt from then on which helped him. For me if Froch can be smart early on and not get hurt then I cant see why he wont have a good chance of stopping Groves late again... It will either be Groves by Early TKO or Froch by late TKO again....

Nice to see that Froch, having slated Calzaghe for seeking out faded legends to boost his bank balance instead of taking on worthy challengers like him despite not proving his worth at World level, is himself now seeking out the overweight, inferior offspring of legends to boost his bank balance instead of taking on worthy challengers like Groves who've now actually proved their worth at World level.

Froch thy name is hypocrisy...and b3ll3nd

tunes666 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Froch has never been able to "watch out for that right hand" in his entire career so it's unlikely he's going to start having a nice high tight guard anytime soon.

Froch knows Groves has the skill and power to hurt him so Froch is going to be even more wary second time round. If he goes for Groves early doors he'll walk onto another right hand and Groves won't hang around this time.

Only thing preventing Groves from winning the rematch is his ability/inability to stick to a gameplan but I think the loss and Froch backlash will be a massive wake-up call for him and you'll see an even more focused Groves next time round (not that Froch will sign for the fight)

I think if he took on Groves again he would certainly have more caution in the early rounds. Personally I think Froch's body language looked too confident early on, he did not look like he had any respect for Groves power.... that soon changed from the 2nd round on though.  Where he was still getting hit but because he was more cautious he was not hit as clean...

alot of fighters have said While Froch may not have the best defense, he is very awkward to catch clean.  

Froch did get a bit lucky in round 1 as if there was 30 seconds to go he would have been KOed, That was Groves best chance and he probably had Froch Hurt from then on which helped him.  For me if Froch can be smart early on and not get hurt then I cant see why he wont have a good chance of stopping Groves late again...  It will either be Groves by Early TKO or Froch by late TKO again....

I'm assuming Gleb Johnson wasn't one of them..or Kessler...or Ward....or Groves? For all Froch's attributes, elusiveness is NOT one of them. Time and time again he's a sucker for that right hand because he lacks the basic nous to keep that left hand up. He's traded on his chin for so many years I don't think he'd be able to hold a high guard if you paid him treble. Put it this way, if Froch didn't have that chin, Pascal would have finished off let alone Taylor or any of the other fighters who found hitting Froch is like shooting fish in a barrel

owen10ozzy wrote:All pretty pointless hear say in my opinion....I simply can't see the fight happening.

No one takes that many clean solid punches without it having an effect in the long time; lest we forget that was the 2nd tough fight in a row for Carl. Whilst he may have peaked late...he has also always taken a lot of punches in two bouts with Kessler, Taylor fight and Pascal.

With his age, his run of fights and the punishment he took last time out, I just cant see Froch wanting anything to do with Groves again.

It wasn't just the way he was rocked so often in the fight, Carl has always been an awkward opponent, something even Ward said after the fight. He is difficult to catch flush..unless he is trading, yet in that fight Groves timed almost all of his shots to perfection, especially the jab.

I think he has Carl in his pocket and the so called Warrior knows it! Expect Froch to take a swan song fight against Chavez meanwhile fancy Groves to go on and face Stieglitz followed by a late 2014 showdown with DeGale/Bika (whoever holds the strap).

maybe true.

But fair enough IMO, he has been in far more wars than Groves and proven him self far more times than Groves has and despite what people think about the stoppage he still took Groves best effort and was still standing and was battering him in rnd 9... Not saying Groves wont go on to prove him self as well but as of yet he has only had two tough fights so its easier for him as it would also another world title shot.. Usually Groves would have to fight a couple people and then swing back round to a rematch, its only because people fear Froch might not be around much longer they want it right now. For me if Froch has any inkling that his age is becoming a factor, he should take the controversial tainted win not take the rematch and just have a couple more fights to see his
career out..

There is also the element of does Groves really need the rematch? and should he take it?, he lost but still has loads of respect from the fight and can always and will always play the "ahhh but i was stopped too early" card.. If he fights again and looses thats two world title attempts he would lose, he would then be seen as short of Froches level for sure...

But there are maybe a couple easier options out there to be a champ, gain a little more experience and so on... I dont think Groves is in a bad position at all at the moment.

DAVE667 wrote:
I'm assuming Gleb Johnson wasn't one of them..or Kessler...or Ward....or Groves? For all Froch's attributes, elusiveness is NOT one of them. Time and time again he's a sucker for that right hand because he lacks the basic nous to keep that left hand up. He's traded on his chin for so many years I don't think he'd be able to hold a high guard if you paid him treble. Put it this way, if Froch didn't have that chin, Pascal would have finished off let alone Taylor or any of the other fighters who found hitting Froch is like shooting fish in a barrel

But he does have that chin, and a boxer learns his trade by building his abilities around his strengths right?.. If you want to hurt Froch you have to hit him hard, and its not easy to hit him hard, Credit to Groves though as he done it in rnd one, that's for sure.

I believe Ward has commented on this as he thought he would KO Froch, and also it was Kessler or Abraham I think or someone else, not sure... defo heard it a couple times...

tunes666 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:
I'm assuming Gleb Johnson wasn't one of them..or Kessler...or Ward....or Groves? For all Froch's attributes, elusiveness is NOT one of them. Time and time again he's a sucker for that right hand because he lacks the basic nous to keep that left hand up. He's traded on his chin for so many years I don't think he'd be able to hold a high guard if you paid him treble. Put it this way, if Froch didn't have that chin, Pascal would have finished off let alone Taylor or any of the other fighters who found hitting Froch is like shooting fish in a barrel

But he does have that chin, and a boxer learns his trade by building his abilities around his strengths right?..  If you want to hurt Froch you have to hit him hard, and its not easy to hit him hard, Credit to Groves though as he done it in rnd one, that's for sure.

I believe Ward has commented on this as he thought he would KO Froch, and also it was Kessler or Abraham I think or someone else, not sure... defo heard it a couple times...

Well was it not for the premature intervention of Foster, there's every possibility that Froch does get beaten. Sick of hearing "Froch only needed two more shots and Groves would have been KO'd" How many times did Froch swing and miss that night? Groves made him look a mug at times and for everyone saying Froch would have KO'd him anyway, there's as many if not more saying that if Groves gets through that tricky patch, he goes on to win. Yes, Froch won but for people to say it was just a matter of time before Groves fell anyway is doing Groves a massive dis-service.

Ward doesn't need to rematch Carl as there was no controversy whatsoever in that fight but Groves deserves another crack and if he loses and the likes of Barker and Murray can still get a third World title shot on the back of two unsuccessful attempts then why not Groves?

DAVE667 wrote:
Well was it not for the premature intervention of Foster, there's every possibility that Froch does get beaten. Sick of hearing "Froch only needed two more shots and Groves would have been KO'd" How many times did Froch swing and miss that night? Groves made him look a mug at times and for everyone saying Froch would have KO'd him anyway, there's as many if not more saying that if Groves gets through that tricky patch, he goes on to win. Yes, Froch won but for people to say it was just a matter of time before Groves fell anyway is doing Groves a massive dis-service.

Ward doesn't need to rematch Carl as there was no controversy whatsoever in that fight but Groves deserves another crack and if he loses and the likes of Barker and Murray can still get a third World title shot on the back of two unsuccessful attempts then why not Groves?

First of all Yes Groves pretty much completely out boxed Froch prior to the stoppage.. But that should have no baring whats so ever on what happened in rd 9.

If the Reff thinks you are too hurt, he should not let you get more hurt because you have boxed well... if he made the wrong call, thats one thing, but Groves out boxing Froch prior to it is not really relevant. Its also a 12 round fight and you dont win by out boxing a guy for 6 or 7 rounds..

Dont get me wrong, I think Groves proved he can mix it with the top guys and impressed me more than I thought he would, But as far as I saw he did not do enough to win the fight despite having Froch dead on his feet in the first round... I give Froch more credit in the fight than Groves for coming back like he did and I believe the way the fight was going he would have stopped him even if Groves did recover in rnd 9 as Froch has proven time and time again against the very best that he does not tire in the latter rounds so its not a hard call to say he would not have in this one especially when you could see his speed was on par at that point., Where Groves was clearly tiring and his punches no longer bothering Froch...

How many times did Froch miss that night?, lots, but the only round that counts now is the 9th where he landed plenty.

I have not heard anyone say that Groves would have probably got through that sticky patch... Most just felt Groves deserved to at least go out on his shield.. and most want a rematch anyway purely because it was a great fight...

Yes we can only guess what would have happened if Foster did not stop the fight, But what is a fact is that while Foster was criticized for stopping the fight, you have to also except that in doing so he prevented Froch from continuing to hit Groves, which clearly he would have done as he only stopped because the reff shielded Groves, from what I saw if he did not then Froch would have had a clean shot to the side of Groves head at least... So its not an unreasonable thing to say that a couple more shots would have done it...

It seems people were happy to see the reff shield Groves and stop the attack but not to call the fight off.

I don't think many are offering an opinion either way as to whether Groves would have survived because we simply have no way of knowing. I've seen plenty of fights where one guy has been hurt far more than Groves was and then come roaring back to win.

Look at Kirkland and Angulo, logic and history tells us that Kirkland gets stopped the moment Angulo has him in serious trouble having been stopped by Ishida previously. The reality is that he came back strong to force the stoppage himself later in the fight.

Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

Whilst I credit Froch for staying in the fight (whilst he was losing comprehensively in my book he was still on his feet) I am still a little perplexed as to where his supporters get this idea that he was in the ascendency at the time of Foster stepping in...again I would be interested in knowing where you thought Froch was on the way up.

As far as I could see, on the night and after ( I have watched it 5 times since), I could only really make a solid case for Froch in the 9th and even then before he landed a straight left , right combo he was rocked solid by a left hook from George. In the 6th, 7th and 8th Froch began to find his feet, yet if you watch it over he a) didn't throw enough to win a round decisively b) got caught far to often cleanly in comparison to Groves.

As I mentioned earlier I don't see a rematch occuring. Whilst Hearn may want it, Froch doesn't...that is plain for all to see. Why make money of two fighters competing against one another when you can make money off both fighting other people? Sad to say such a thing I know but given Groves is only 20 odd fights into his career I wouldn't begrudge him taking on the likes of Bika or Stiegletz next.

Different story entirely for Froch who should fight Ward, Groves, Golovokin, Martinez or Pascal/Hopkins/Stevenson @ LH if he wants to seal his legacy. He can talk all he wants about the Super 6 and who he faced but the simple fact is that by the end of it he lost...he was shown up to be the 2nd best in the division and by some length. Assuming he fights Chavez next, it's impossible to consider him as good as Calzaghe as he wouldn't of proven he was the best at Super Middle and he wouldn't hold a legitimate belt at Light Heavyweight.

Calzaghe cannot be overturned by Froch, it simply cannot happen but Joe's legacy is there to be picked apart.

Joe didn't take on the young buck, Joe didn't travel enough, Joe stepped up only to fight Hopkins and a shadow of Jones Jnr.

Nevertheless, Froch's legacy is in the balance and is being tarnished with every day this rematch doesn't happen. Unless he steps up to LH or is honest about a fight in Vegas then he has no excuses.

tunes666 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:
Well was it not for the premature intervention of Foster, there's every possibility that Froch does get beaten. Sick of hearing "Froch only needed two more shots and Groves would have been KO'd" How many times did Froch swing and miss that night? Groves made him look a mug at times and for everyone saying Froch would have KO'd him anyway, there's as many if not more saying that if Groves gets through that tricky patch, he goes on to win. Yes, Froch won but for people to say it was just a matter of time before Groves fell anyway is doing Groves a massive dis-service.

Ward doesn't need to rematch Carl as there was no controversy whatsoever in that fight but Groves deserves another crack and if he loses and the likes of Barker and Murray can still get a third World title shot on the back of two unsuccessful attempts then why not Groves?

I have not heard anyone say that Groves would have probably got through that sticky patch...  Most just felt Groves deserved to at least go out on his shield..  and most want a rematch anyway purely because it was a great fight...

What people are saying is that Groves deserved the chance to prove he can come through a crisis. He was no more hurt than Froch in the first round, yet Foster was happy to let that go on. This was the first time Groves had been in any sort of trouble, yet he was still defending himself and he was still throwing back, Foster made a very poor call that night.

Going forward Froch has two options, either shut up about dominating the fight or rematch and prove he's the better fight. Every man and his dog knows Froch was completely outfought, outboxed and out thought on fight night. Ironically, Groves gave him the game plan three days before the fight and Froch thought he was joking.

Many people want a rematch because we have no definitive answer who wins that fight. If Groves goes down and get's up who's to say he doesn't all of a sudden get a second wind? We've seen this happen numerous times over the years, you can't simply say "it was clear that Froch was going to stop him" because no one knows this. However, if you do somehow have a magic crystal ball that allows you to see the future, can you give me tonights lotto numbers?

owen10ozzy wrote:Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

I had Groves up 73 - 78, which also includes the knock down... After the 9th it would have been 82 - 86 but had the reff not been there I think even the biggest of Grove fans would have to admit Groves would have at least been knocked down which would have been 83 - 86 with three rounds left to go, and Froch on top, it would not have been out of the question to have given Froch another round up till that point as well.

It would have been a tall order for Froch but doable looking at how the fight was panning out and how Groves power was no longer effecting Froch.

But my point is also that outboxing is one thing but you can also win by getting people out of there. Froch has never been a great "boxer" as such, he has always been about the trenches, durable sustainable power and being awkward with a long reach and a great chin, this is what you have to beat when you fight him...  Ward did the same, and in the last couple rounds was also having to run from Froch.

Im not taking anything away from Groves I just think Froch has been unfairly put down, who was doing what he needed to do to win the fight when it was the reff who stopped him hitting Groves, not him, and certainly not Groves.

Would he have been knocked down, nobody knows because we weren't given the chance to find out, it certainly wasn't looking like a 10-8 round to me, no more so than the 6th.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Would he have been knocked down, nobody knows because we weren't given the chance to find out, it certainly wasn't looking like a 10-8 round to me, no more so than the 6th.

Yeah right! .. If it had not been for the bell then indeed Froch would have been in the same bother in rnd 1 when he got back up and was being clobbered.. apart from that Froch was never in trouble of being stopped, just being out boxed and getting hit... there was no stage in the fight where Groves done the same to Froch after the 1st where th bell saved Froch, and this is the biased talk I am addressing.

and I would like to know what you think would have kept Groves up on his feet if the Reff was not there?, Froch? after having an early xmas spirited god deed for the day ? lol

Yeah, Groves was having a picnic in rind 9, in fact could have done the pogo if the Reff had just not stopped Froch hitting him.

Tunes why have you gone to the extreme there? You're normally a sensible poster but by doing that you look immature.

You are talking as if you know Froch would have stopped him, how do you know this? Groves hadn't been in trouble all fight and the first crisis he suffered he wasn't allowed the chance to show he could see it out. Very poor decision.

You could also add that Groves was placed in a headlock by Foster making him appear a lot worse than he was, when did you last see a ref put a fighter in a headlock instead of come between the two fighters when stopping a fight?

tunes666 wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

I had Groves up 73 - 78, which also includes the knock down... After the 9th it would have been 82 - 86 but had the reff not been there I think even the biggest of Grove fans would have to admit Groves would have at least been knocked down which would have been 83 - 86 with three rounds left to go, and Froch on top, it would not have been out of the question to have given Froch another round up till that point as well.

It would have been a tall order for Froch but doable looking at how the fight was panning out and how Groves power was no longer effecting Froch.

But my point is also that outboxing is one thing but you can also win by getting people out of there. Froch has never been a great "boxer" as such, he has always been about the trenches, durable sustainable power and being awkward with a long reach and a great chin, this is what you have to beat when you fight him...  Ward did the same, and in the last couple rounds was also having to run from Froch.

Im not taking anything away from Groves I just think Froch has been unfairly put down, who was doing what he needed to do to win the fight when it was the reff who stopped him hitting Groves, not him, and certainly not Groves.

I don't understand that comment, Froch was still being buzzed by GG in the 9th.

hampo171 wrote:Tunes why have you gone to the extreme there? You're normally a sensible poster but by doing that you look immature.

You are talking as if you know Froch would have stopped him, how do you know this? Groves hadn't been in trouble all fight and the first crisis he suffered he wasn't allowed the chance to show he could see it out. Very poor decision.

You could also add that Groves was placed in a headlock by Foster making him appear a lot worse than he was, when did you last see a ref put a fighter in a headlock instead of come between the two fighters when stopping a fight?

Look at some of the comments I was replying too, I have said it was my opinion that Groves was BEING stopped. If someone tells me that he was not and that he was not even being spanked then I will disagree...

It was an early stoppage yes as Groves could have gone down and taken a count. But that does not mean that Groves would not have been stopped. all this head lock stuff is not true...

At no stage in the fight was Froch relying on the reff to stop Groves from hitting him...

Here is the whole part of the stoppage... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El0uQJy9j_4

As you can see in rnd 9 the two are now scrapping and trading, and Groves is no longer in control and Froch is able to take Groves punches and trade... I think Froch looks more at home here and is certainly happy to come forward.

At 0:19 Froch lands a big right that hurts Groves and has him holding on and in trouble as Froch tries to push him off and keep hitting him. That punch in its self hurt Groves more than Froch was hurt at any time (AFTER the knock down where he was saved by the bell of course) Feel free to show me where Froch was hurt as much and holding on as much that we can see from 0:19 onwards ? There is even a question then as to why the reff pulled them apart as Froch was still landing on the inside a little... but he did pull them apart.. and start up again..

and the fight goes on again..

From then on Groves still looks hurt and Froch looks to go in for the kill.. lands another left and has Groves covering up on the ropes, To Groves Credit he does throw some punches back while covering up that miss while Froch still lands, the only reason the Reff should have let the fight go on is the fact Groves was throwing punches back even though he was not landing.

But as for the "headlock"... lets have a look... From 0:46 you see Groves move into Froch with his hands up obviously trying to smother the attack.. at 0:48 he has his head ducked forward and with his for arms he pushes Froch away (what do you think happens at that point if the reff does not step in, and people are saying he would not have even been flawed?) and at that point his head is tilted forward and arms down by his side.. the reff then rests both his arms over the top of the slouching Groves... who remains slouched for a few more seconds..

I will say again the stoppage was early, The Reff should have stepped back and either let Groves fall on the floor or let Froch keep hitting him... But I also say, Groves was going to get stopped, that's my opinion.

For me there was a 30 second spell where Groves was hurt and Froch had time to finish it. Thats my opinion.

I just think there is allot of Groves bias going around as well, where the obvious change of momentum is ignored because of the slightly early stoppage...

KC wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

I had Groves up 73 - 78, which also includes the knock down... After the 9th it would have been 82 - 86 but had the reff not been there I think even the biggest of Grove fans would have to admit Groves would have at least been knocked down which would have been 83 - 86 with three rounds left to go, and Froch on top, it would not have been out of the question to have given Froch another round up till that point as well.

It would have been a tall order for Froch but doable looking at how the fight was panning out and how Groves power was no longer effecting Froch.

But my point is also that outboxing is one thing but you can also win by getting people out of there. Froch has never been a great "boxer" as such, he has always been about the trenches, durable sustainable power and being awkward with a long reach and a great chin, this is what you have to beat when you fight him...  Ward did the same, and in the last couple rounds was also having to run from Froch.

Im not taking anything away from Groves I just think Froch has been unfairly put down, who was doing what he needed to do to win the fight when it was the reff who stopped him hitting Groves, not him, and certainly not Groves.

I don't understand that comment, Froch was still being buzzed by GG in the 9th.

I have just posted the vid, please show me where as I think thats tripe, Froch was not hurt once in that round and was looking confident and not at all bothered by Groves punches... Im happy for you to point out to me what im missing...

There was a slight change in momentum but it was a huge shift like you seem to be suggesting and while Groves was hurt he didn't look like he was getting floored in the preceding 30 seconds nor was he. It is not being biased to look at what actually happened instead of using a crystal ball to predict the future, you could be right or you could also be very wrong. When Coralles was dropped twice in the 9th against he looked dead and buried but the reality is something very different, who's to say Groves doesn't do something similar.

tunes666 wrote:

KC wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

I had Groves up 73 - 78, which also includes the knock down... After the 9th it would have been 82 - 86 but had the reff not been there I think even the biggest of Grove fans would have to admit Groves would have at least been knocked down which would have been 83 - 86 with three rounds left to go, and Froch on top, it would not have been out of the question to have given Froch another round up till that point as well.

It would have been a tall order for Froch but doable looking at how the fight was panning out and how Groves power was no longer effecting Froch.

But my point is also that outboxing is one thing but you can also win by getting people out of there. Froch has never been a great "boxer" as such, he has always been about the trenches, durable sustainable power and being awkward with a long reach and a great chin, this is what you have to beat when you fight him...  Ward did the same, and in the last couple rounds was also having to run from Froch.

Im not taking anything away from Groves I just think Froch has been unfairly put down, who was doing what he needed to do to win the fight when it was the reff who stopped him hitting Groves, not him, and certainly not Groves.

I don't understand that comment, Froch was still being buzzed by GG in the 9th.

I have just posted the vid, please show me where as I think thats tripe, Froch was not hurt once in that round and was looking confident and not at all bothered by Groves punches... Im happy for you to point out to me what im missing...

I'm going from memory - I'm in work so can't view the video - your views might be taken more seriously if you didn't resort to petty insults and deriding other posters' comments just because you don't agree with them.

Only three things from that night are 100% fact -

1) Froch was put on his backside by Groves
2) He was being outboxed and outfought for the vast majority of the night
3) He took more punishment than in any of his previous fights.

Anything else is pure hear say and crystal ball gazing, regardless of whether anyone thought he would go on to stop him, or that he was in the ascendancy it doesn't matter because we weren't given an opportunity to find out. The fact is that no matter which way you want to argue for Froch or Groves, the simple and one undeniable point is the fight was stopped prematurely in the sense we did not get a conclusive answer to the outcome of the fight....that alone is the reason why a rematch has to happen. Should it not, it will only affect one persons legacy and it won't be Groves.

Many people may have more sympathy and perhaps view that the fight was turning if Froch had come out with a different attitude after the fight. The problem is he has been spouting complete and utter nonsense which contradicts what actually happened on the night.

He has stated two utterly incredible points since that night.

1) That he showed George Groves doesn't belong at that level
2) That he was dominating the fight.

If that's the case then he has no reason not to take a rematch which will earn him around the £5 million mark!

Hammersmith harrier wrote:There was a slight change in momentum but it was a huge shift like you seem to be suggesting and while Groves was hurt he didn't look like he was getting floored in the preceding 30 seconds nor was he. It is not being biased to look at what actually happened instead of using a crystal ball to predict the future, you could be right or you could also be very wrong. When Coralles was dropped twice in the 9th against he looked dead and buried but the reality is something very different, who's to say Groves doesn't do something similar.

IMO there was a huge change in momentum, it turned from Groves outboxing him and Froch not wanting to come forward and get hit, to Froch coming forward landing lots of punches and not being at all bothered about what Groves was throwing back.... that to me is a huge change in momentum.

of course we can only predict... we could also predict fights outcome had there been a different selection of judges...

I also think if the bell did not save Froch in rnd one he would have also got stopped.

But to make out that Groves was not in deep trouble is tosh!.... and since the Knock down from was not in the same kind of trouble at any point in the fight. At not one stage was Froch "holding on" trying not to get hit... please show me.

KC wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

KC wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

owen10ozzy wrote:Tunes - Given you have stated that the fact Groves was outboxing him, yet it made no difference because it was a 12 Round fight which you don't win by beating someone for 6/7 rounds...I would be interested to know how you scored the contest up until the point of the stoppage.

I had Groves up 73 - 78, which also includes the knock down... After the 9th it would have been 82 - 86 but had the reff not been there I think even the biggest of Grove fans would have to admit Groves would have at least been knocked down which would have been 83 - 86 with three rounds left to go, and Froch on top, it would not have been out of the question to have given Froch another round up till that point as well.

It would have been a tall order for Froch but doable looking at how the fight was panning out and how Groves power was no longer effecting Froch.

But my point is also that outboxing is one thing but you can also win by getting people out of there. Froch has never been a great "boxer" as such, he has always been about the trenches, durable sustainable power and being awkward with a long reach and a great chin, this is what you have to beat when you fight him...  Ward did the same, and in the last couple rounds was also having to run from Froch.

Im not taking anything away from Groves I just think Froch has been unfairly put down, who was doing what he needed to do to win the fight when it was the reff who stopped him hitting Groves, not him, and certainly not Groves.

I don't understand that comment, Froch was still being buzzed by GG in the 9th.

I have just posted the vid, please show me where as I think thats tripe, Froch was not hurt once in that round and was looking confident and not at all bothered by Groves punches... Im happy for you to point out to me what im missing...

I'm going from memory - I'm in work so can't view the video - your views might be taken more seriously if you didn't resort to petty insults and deriding other posters' comments just because you don't agree with them.

   ok so when you get a sec to show me where Froch was "buzzed" in rnd 9, you can also show me where I have resorted to petty insults, as that is also not true... unless my opinions insult you.

You mean in the 6th round when he was holding on for dear life something the commentators made specific mention of.

owen10ozzy wrote:Only three things from that night are 100% fact -

1) Froch was put on his backside by Groves
2) He was being outboxed and outfought for the vast majority of the night
3) He took more punishment than in any of his previous fights.

4) The Ref covered up Groves and stopped Froch from hitting him, calling off the fight. I think that deserves to be in there.
5) Froch came back from being floored and out boxed and in the 9th round had Groves desperately holding on before the reff stopped the fight, this could also sit in their even if you wanted to say the stoppage was early.

Anything else is pure hear say and crystal ball gazing, regardless of whether anyone thought he would go on to stop him, or that he was in the ascendancy it doesn't matter because we weren't given an opportunity to find out. The fact is that no matter which way you want to argue for Froch or Groves, the simple and one undeniable point is the fight was stopped prematurely in the sense we did not get a conclusive answer to the outcome of the fight....that alone is the reason why a rematch has to happen. Should it not, it will only affect one persons legacy and it won't be Groves.

Very true, but this also goes for people who make out that Groves was in no trouble. This is the only point I assert as untrue, He was hurt, he was in trouble and Froch did have a chance to stop him, many think too soon yes, but to make out Groves was in no trouble and that Froch was in worse trouble is tosh IMO. Yes the Knock down had him in big trouble but the bell saved him, since then he was never in any deep trouble, in the 9th Groves was simple as that.

Many people may have more sympathy and perhaps view that the fight was turning if Froch had come out with a different attitude after the fight. The problem is he has been spouting complete and utter nonsense which contradicts what actually happened on the night.

I agree with that, but that being said the way people have treated him after the fight is not exactly great either. To get booed out after showing the fight he did is a disgrace IMO.. people go on about Froch after the fight, when did Groves compliment Froch's grit and fight?

He has stated two utterly incredible points since that night.

1) That he showed George Groves doesn't belong at that level
2) That he was dominating the fight.

Yeah 1, is complete rubbish, and 2, needs to be changed from "the fight" to "rnd 9"

If that's the case then he has no reason not to take a rematch which will earn him around the £5 million mark!

Only that he is 36 and has had two grueling fights in a row and many in his career... where Groves has had 1 or 2 and is 26... There is more to think about for Froch and there is every chance that he will not even be as good a fighter in a rematch, to be honest I think thats why Groves fans want the rematch as they sniff him on the slide and like how Groves speed was so effective.

Lets say Groves fans are right and he would have weathered the little spot of bother in rnd 9 and got back on top... Then we could say the win was on par with Wards, all be it the little hick up in rnd 9.

Do you see Groves beating Ward?

What does the Froch say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex2KqAyPPKk

to be honest I think thats why Groves fans want the rematch as they sniff him on the slide and like how Groves speed was so effective.

Or maybe fans don't want to see JCC JR get gifted another world title shot, or another fight wth Ward that would be even more on sided.

Here's a question for you tunes. Foster stops the fight when Groves has moved off to the side and has his back to Froch, at this point he is at his furthest away from Froch. Surely if Foster was going to stop it then stopping it 10 seconds earlier when he's on the ropes is a more correct decision than waiting till Groves has moved away?

Rolling Eyes ok so when you get a sec to show me where Froch was "buzzed" in rnd 9, you can also show me where I have resorted to petty insults, as that is also not true... unless my opinions insult you.

Calling people's opinions "tripe" is hardly what you call an endearing term is it? Just because someone disagrees you can still voice a counter opinion in a civil way.

The thing is Tunes anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion you call a Groves fan which I certainly am not, i'm just about the biggest Froch fan on this site. I still though have to try and be objective.

I dont care what those judges or referees say...this is the man who won that fight

KC wrote:
Rolling Eyes  ok so when you get a sec to show me where Froch was "buzzed" in rnd 9, you can also show me where I have resorted to petty insults, as that is also not true... unless my opinions insult you.

Calling people's opinions "tripe" is hardly what you call an endearing term is it? Just because someone disagrees you can still voice a counter opinion in a civil way.

lol come of it, calling someones opinion as tripe is not an insult... Its just firm disagreement.. i could say hog wash if it sounds better