5th Ashes Test, Sydney

by **Pal Joey** Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:03 am

First topic message reminder :

January 3-7, Sydney Cricket Ground
Start time 1030 (2330 GMT)

Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey, BJ Haddin†, MG Johnson, PM Siddle, RJ Harris, NM Lyon

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, IR Bell, KP Pietersen, GS Ballance, BA Stokes, JM Bairstow†, SG Borthwick, SCJ Broad, JM Anderson, WB Rankin

The grassy SCG pitch should offer some assistance for the pace bowlers early on. Some grip there for the spinners too. It's not going to be too hot and there is the chance of a few showers over the 5 days - but nothing too substantial. Some cloud cover and high humidity though.

by kingraf Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:12 am

I missed day one as I had to take my sister to the licensing department for her license, but looking at the scorecard, I might as well have watched replays of the first, second and third test first innings - Cook and co seem to run out of ideas once the real batsmen come in... Warner needs to learn to bat... this swishing about nonsense needs to stop asap.. Even if Australia do have the best attack in the world (McGrath seems to think so), it's not going to help much in SA - once Australia go 90/5 against Steyn and co - they aren't crossing 150. Clarke seems to have gone completely off the boil as a batsman. Shane Watson... Can always rely on that big pad, He's gonna get slaughtered by Steyn and Philander (doesn't really matter which one, it's all about who he faces first - nicks off vs Steyn, Bowled/pad vs Vern.)

Sorry to bring up a series a month away, but is anyone in doubt that England will collapse, then Warner will score a kick-em-while-they're-down hundred, and then the fourth innings looks distinctly like a deer caught in the headlights? I've seen this movie... four times now!

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:12 am

Was impressed by his confidence, and the way he handled himself. Kerrigan seemed almost embarrassed to be there, Borthwick stood in the slips like he belonged.

yeah...the reference bar is so low...that a spinner ain't looking embarrassed is considered a credible show

by guildfordbat Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:13 am

Olly wrote:

Still hope for tomorrow, if we're still batting at the close you'd fancy we will be there or thereabouts. Hope

Unless we're following on. Wink

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:18 am

Who was the batsman that got sound wound up in the West Indies he couldnt even old the bat? Shah?

Youd think and experienced international like Rankin would be relatively comfortable on this kind of stage and not just cramping from nerves. But ho hum.

by Stella Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:18 am

KP_fan wrote:
Was impressed by his confidence, and the way he handled himself. Kerrigan seemed almost embarrassed to be there, Borthwick stood in the slips like he belonged.

yeah...the reference bar is so low...that a spinner ain't looking embarrassed is considered a credible show

Borthwick did look at ease and confidence. It's a start at least, and he got bat yet. May score a few?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:21 am

Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Was impressed by his confidence, and the way he handled himself. Kerrigan seemed almost embarrassed to be there, Borthwick stood in the slips like he belonged.

yeah...the reference bar is so low...that a spinner ain't looking embarrassed is considered a credible show

Borthwick did look at ease and confidence. It's a start at least, and he got bat yet. May score a few?

Shane Warne got hit for 150 with 1 wicket on his debut. Borthwick well on his way to legend status Id say.

by Stella Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:23 am

Borthwick has a strike rate of 42. This is better than Warne's, and Murali's.

by alfie Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:47 am

kingraf wrote:I missed day one as I had to take my sister to the licensing department for her license, but looking at the scorecard, I might as well have watched replays of the first, second and third test first innings - Cook and co seem to run out of ideas once the real batsmen come in... Warner needs to learn to bat... this swishing about nonsense needs to stop asap.. Even if Australia do have the best attack in the world (McGrath seems to think so), it's not going to help much in SA - once Australia go 90/5 against Steyn and co - they aren't crossing 150. Clarke seems to have gone completely off the boil as a batsman. Shane Watson... Can always rely on that big pad, He's gonna get slaughtered by Steyn and Philander (doesn't really matter which one, it's all about who he faces first - nicks off vs Steyn, Bowled/pad vs Vern.)

Sorry to bring up a series a month away, but is anyone in doubt that England will collapse, then Warner will score a kick-em-while-they're-down hundred, and then the fourth innings looks distinctly like a deer caught in the headlights? I've seen this movie... four times now!

Yeah , was a bit like that , kingraf. I was hoping the script might have changed by now , but once Haddin got set : Tumbleweed

Suppose we might be able to install a new writer for tomorrow ? Kidnap the current one , perhaps ? Not to complain , but something different : however it actually finishes , would be nice. At least Melbourne ran in a slightly different order , so you never know..

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:59 am

Ha Ha Ha The management want to kick a player's back side who us not performing...so they decided to drop Root Yahoo

......i didn't have a moment so hilarious in all of 2013

who is that player b.t.w

telegraph wrote:Root sidelined
Joe Root was told on Wednesday he would not be playing at the SCG and the decision may not have been made totally on the grounds of form. He has the lowest average of the top six and the poorest strike rate so the statistics were not on his side but with England’s selection for this Test very much geared towards the future it would have been in keeping for Root to play and 33 year-old Michael Carberry to miss out. But sources have indicated Root’s dropping may well have been designed as a kick up the backside for a player the management feel can be a little too cheeky without the runs to back up the attitude. There is no doubt Root will be back, probably for the first Test of next summer against Sri Lanka at Lord’s in June. His talent is undeniable and the spiky attitude a good trait when things are going well. It is all about timing.

by Stella Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:03 pm

KP_fan wrote:Ha Ha Ha The management want to kick a player's back side who us not performing...so they decided to drop Root ......i didn't have a moment so hilarious in all of 2013

who is that player b.t.w

telegraph wrote:Root sidelined
Joe Root was told on Wednesday he would not be playing at the SCG and the decision may not have been made totally on the grounds of form. He has the lowest average of the top six and the poorest strike rate so the statistics were not on his side but with England’s selection for this Test very much geared towards the future it would have been in keeping for Root to play and 33 year-old Michael Carberry to miss out. But sources have indicated Root’s dropping may well have been designed as a kick up the backside for a player the management feel can be a little too cheeky without the runs to back up the attitude. There is no doubt Root will be back, probably for the first Test of next summer against Sri Lanka at Lord’s in June. His talent is undeniable and the spiky attitude a good trait when things are going well. It is all about timing.

Very disappointing if true. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors, but being a little cheeky???

by alfie Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:10 pm

That "sources" chap is a knowledgeable fellow Smile

However he might just as aptly have underlined the bit about lowest average and strike rate , no ?

by Mike Selig Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:16 pm

Raf, think you're a bit harsh on Warner and Clarke to be honest.

Warner is an aggressive opening batsman in the vein of say a Shewag, but he has settled down a bit under the calming influence of Rogers. I don't think he'll score that many in South Africa, but if he can play one big innings, and get a couple of brisk starts he'll have contributed. I know most of his runs this series can be thought of as somewhat cheap, but he has gotten Australia off to good starts in the first innings a few times as well. Yesterday he got a good ball from Broad, shaped in then moved away, reminiscent of Harris's beauty to Cook; he did play a loose shot but to be honest however he'd played it it would probably have got him out.

Completely disagree with you about Clarke I have to say - it's only 3 tests ago that he was playing a decisive innings in Adelaide. It is a mark of how good a player he has become when a series where he is averaging I would guess high 40s and scored 2 centuries is described as "off the boil". Would you say Amla's batting has gone off the boil as well? Yesterday he got a really good ball, bounce and movement away; he had looked in pretty good nick until that point.

South Africa will of course start as heavy favourites against Australia: they are after all number 1 in the world, and comfortably the best side around at the moment. Australia meanwhile only a few months ago were coming off the back of a whitewash in India, and a 3-0 defeat in England. They are much improved, and their side is beginning to take shape, but there is still a way to go. I think they will compete well at times in South Africa (remember they got the better of the two opening tests in Aus before capitulating at Perth) but South Africa should ultimately prevail.

by Gerry SA Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:33 pm

Scott Borthwick was no better than Simon Kerrigan.

Borthwick gets no turn or drift.

If Mitchell Johnson wasn't going for a home run, then Borthwick never looked like getting a wicket.

England scraping the barrel with village green spinners like Kerrigan and Borthwick.

by Gerry SA Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:35 pm

King of Greentops, James 'Overrated' Anderson, can't even make an impact on his favoured pitches. What a joke of a bowler. Gone from one dimensional to no dimensional.

by FerN Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:54 pm

kingraf wrote:I missed day one as I had to take my sister to the licensing department for her license, but looking at the scorecard, I might as well have watched replays of the first, second and third test first innings - Cook and co seem to run out of ideas once the real batsmen come in... Warner needs to learn to bat... this swishing about nonsense needs to stop asap.. Even if Australia do have the best attack in the world (McGrath seems to think so), it's not going to help much in SA - once Australia go 90/5 against Steyn and co - they aren't crossing 150. Clarke seems to have gone completely off the boil as a batsman. Shane Watson... Can always rely on that big pad, He's gonna get slaughtered by Steyn and Philander (doesn't really matter which one, it's all about who he faces first - nicks off vs Steyn, Bowled/pad vs Vern.)

Sorry to bring up a series a month away, but is anyone in doubt that England will collapse, then Warner will score a kick-em-while-they're-down hundred, and then the fourth innings looks distinctly like a deer caught in the headlights? I've seen this movie... four times now!

Don't get over confident, I am really scared and excited at the same time of this incoming Australia tour. They look really good. I think we are going to struggle against this Australian team.

by Mike Selig Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:55 pm

As for the day's play, for I think the first time this series I made it through unscathed. It was actually a very entertaining day's play, were it not for the fact that it all had an air of inevitability about it.

England copped a stupid amount of flak for the way they bowled in the morning session. It is all very well saying they should have bowled fuller, but it is a fine line between a good length and a floaty half-volley, and the temptation on a pitch offering a bit of latteral movement is to be too full (just as the temptation on a pitch offering a bit of bounce is to be too short) and strive for that wicket ball. I thought England got it just about right in the first session; Anderson took on the role of stock bowler (in the absence of Bresnan; dare I say it that England missed him at times yesterday?) whilst Broad and Stokes bowled more attacking lengths. It is a mark of England not IMO being consistently too short that almost all of Australia's boundaries in the morning came off the front foot (I can remember a cut off Warner which wasn't convincing, and a thumping pull of Watson).

Bailey looked out of his depth to be honest. I like the guy and thought he deserved his chance, but also think Australia should have used this game to have a look at Doolan (or another youngster) with a view on the South Africa series. He just looks so vulnerable in the corridor, and Steyn and Philander must really be hoping he starts the next series as well. Broad gave him a very good working over.

In fact Anderson and Broad bowled a really good spell after lunch, and Smith and Haddin batted really well to get through it. In hindsight that may well prove to be the crucial period. For all of Haddin and Smith's free scoring later on, they really gutsed it out - I think both had 10 or 12 off their first 30 balls.

England's problem was that the back-up bowling wasn't up to scratch in that afternoon session. They were unfortunate of course with Rankin's injury (the selection of Borthwick was surely done in the assumption that he would be part of a 5 man attack), and to an extent that Stokes bowled the worst he has done all tour in that passage of play.

Massive credit of course has to go to Smith and Haddin. Haddin has had enough people singing his praises, so I am going to focus a bit on Smith, who is fast becoming one of my favourite cricketers. His technique has actually tightened up noticeably, and he is growing in maturity and confidence every game. His knock in Perth was a great example of constructing an innings; this effort was equally good, but more confident with his play through the off-side - picked the length really well. He may not become a world beater, but he should be a more than handy cricketer for Australia for a number of years. I am very interested to see how he goes in South Africa.

England were really ragged in the evening session, with the exception of Stokes, who has really been a bright spot on this tour. Whilst we must be a bit careful of not over-egging his performance, he does look like he could develop into a genuine all-rounder. I really like his attitude, the way he ran in even at the end of a hard day (and tour) when England were beginning to look like they'd let Australia get near 400 was great. As I noted early on, things seem to happen when he bowls. He does however have a problem with hitting the stumps (a ridiculous change of law, but one he is going to have to deal with now).

I thought Anderson was particularly poor in the evening unfortunately. Looked tired, and like all the stock bowling he has done (due to lack of latteral movement) has taken its toll - he was just putting it there back of a length without any intent, and even Harris smacked him around. He is a very good bowler, but could do with a break. Only time will tell whether this is merely a bad spell, or the start of something more terminal.

With that in mind, it is crucial that England start planning for his successor as attack leader. On the evidence of today, Rankin is unlikely to be it. I don't mind his selection that much - have a look at him and see what he can do - and I really really feel for the guy having to go off injured (cramp? Really?) but he looked a bit out of his depth: fielding was mediocre, and fitness levels short of what you would expect from an international cricketer today; bowling his natural length is back of a length which is good for ODIs (hard to score from and hits the splice) but unlikely to trouble the better players (outside from the subcontinental flat track bullies) in tests; then when he was full he was floaty; he also pushed a lot of balls down the leg-side. Nerves of course played a part, and it may seem harsh judging him based on 8 overs, but international cricket is a harsh place. At 29 and with his fitness levels and injury history he is not exactly one for the future, so it may be time to look elsewhere.

Borthwick's attitude I liked - he did look at home in the field as PSW has correctly pointed out. His bowling showed enough promise to keep me interested. I think he is a bit slow for international cricket (high 40s, probably should be looking more at 52-53 mph) as yet, and has a tendency to just roll it out rather than really tweak it, but when he did tweak it he got good action on the ball, and decent loop also. Bowled a couple of googlies, one of which Smith didn't pick. He could do with a quicker ball. of course he bowled a lot of dross, but that was to be expected. He is nowhere near ready to be England's number 1 spinner - like most young leggies, my best advice would be just to bowl, bowl and bowl, and as such Durham is probably not the best place for him. If he goes away and works hard, or his batting means he could play a similar role that Smith does for Australia, he certainly has a future at this level.

I do think that unfortunately guildford's concerns about 3 debutants have proven to be very well founded. Even granting for Rankin's injury, having to juggle two understandably nervous bowlers was a challenge which Cook could have done without. On the other hand, in the long run they may very well be better off for it.

It is easy in hindsight to say that Carberry shouldn't have played, but to be honest Johnson bowled a fabulous spell yesterday evening, and would have troubled anyone. Indeed it may be better in the long run that Root didn't have his confidence further knocked by getting the working over Carberry did. Even Cook survived by virtue of only facing 4 balls from Johnson and even then he needed a major bit of luck to survive 2 of them. Johnson was absolutely brilliant, and if he bowls like that again tomorrow it's hard to see England making much of a game of it. On the other hand I thought Harris overdid the short stuff against Anderson; had he concentrated more on pitching the ball up he may have been in business (his one pitched up delivery was edged short of Watson).

It will be interesting to see whether the pitch settles down a bit tomorrow and on day 3, or simply whether the already uneven bounce becomes even more pronounced.

This post is now ridiculously out of hand, so I think I'll shut up.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:00 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Was impressed by his confidence, and the way he handled himself. Kerrigan seemed almost embarrassed to be there, Borthwick stood in the slips like he belonged.

yeah...the reference bar is so low...that a spinner ain't looking embarrassed is considered a credible show

Yeah the bar set by international spinners like Ashwin taking 1 wicket for 277 on tour #glasshouses
Even Ashton Agar managed to average 124.

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:45 pm

Dobell in CI...points out the poisonous "England Environment" that saps the life out of young best talents in the county circuit.

I told ya...too much mumbo-jumbo being fed into those in the dressing room.
within 3 tests Stokes has developed the rarest of rare ways of noballing

Dobell-Cricinfo wrote:It should not be a complete surprise. When you call-up a 23-year-old legspinner who was 14th in his county's bowling averages last year, a fast bowler who has not played in over a month and rely on a 22-year-old allrounder who admits he is still learning his trade as a seamer, then you are, in part at least, trusting to chance. The last time an England legspinner took a wicket in a victory for England was in 1968. The bowler was Ken Barrington and the batsman was Seymour Nurse. Scott Borthwick's economy rate in his first innings for England was actually worse than Simon Kerrigan's at The Oval in August.

And, if your attention to detail is going to extend to producing a cookbook, should it not also extend to ensuring there is a set of stumps at both ends in net sessions and ensuring that bowlers do not overstep or dislodge the bails as Ben Stokes did on several times on the first day here? As it is, England's bowlers routinely overstep in practice and need only avoid a single stump.

While Stokes, the silver lining in this gloomy series for England, impressed with his persistence and lively pace, his success was offset by the news that Joe Root had been dropped. For several months, Root has been touted as the future. To see him derailed, at least temporarily, has dimmed a ray of light at the end of this dark tunnel.

But the faults in the English system go back much further than that. If England really want to be able to dispose of lower orders in the way that Johnson and co have managed, then they could sorely do with a bowler of such pace or a match-winning spinner.

But the system designed to produce them is actually holding them back. Not the county system - the environment which has given England Finn, Tymal Mills, the Overton twins, Stuart Meaker and many others - but the extended England environment.

At an open day at the ECB's National Performance Centre not so long ago, there was a presentation that talked with pride about the speeds achieved by some young English bowlers under laboratory conditions. Dig a little deeper, however, and you discover that fastest pace achieved was by Meaker, the Surrey bowler who deteriorated markedly for his exposure to the England environment this time last year, on his first visit to the site. On each subsequent visit, burdened by more advice from ECB specialists, he has become a touch slower.

The experts there will also tell you, with barely concealed pride, that a bowler such as Saeed Ajmal, a man who has been proved to have a legal action, would not be able to progress in English cricket. The experience of Maurice Holmes underlines how hard it is for unorthodox spinners to develop in England.

Around the counties, directors of cricket talk in exasperation of the damaging effects of exposure to the England environment on their players. Look at Finn, or Meaker or Chris Woakes. Even James Anderson, after he had lost his pace, his ability to swing the ball and developed a stress fracture, admitted that he progressed only by going back to what had served him well when he first broke through at Lancashire.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that all the money spent on developing the best players is, in part, holding them back.

by Duty281 Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:50 pm

It's a shame that this part of the forum is going much the same way as the Rugby and Boxing ones - slowly being taken over by the WUMs.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:56 pm

KP_fan wrote:Dobell in CI...points out the poisonous "England Environment" that saps the life out of young best talents in the county circuit.

I told ya...too much mumbo-jumbo being fed into those in the dressing room.
within 3 tests Stokes has developed the rarest of rare ways of noballing

You also told us that England should have picked Rankin and that spinners outside Asia should be selected on their batting.

Stokes has been in the England set up since he was a teen and senior squads for 2 and half years.
If hes developed the habit of clipping the wickets from England hes developed the good parts of his game too.

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:02 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Dobell in CI...points out the poisonous "England Environment" that saps the life out of young best talents in the county circuit.

I told ya...too much mumbo-jumbo being fed into those in the dressing room.
within 3 tests Stokes has developed the rarest of rare ways of noballing

You also told us that England should have picked Rankin
when fit physically and mentally

and that spinners outside Asia should be selected on their batting.
yes spinners and not part time club bowlers...because they can bat

Stokes has been in the England set up since he was a teen and senior squads for 2 and half years.
If hes developed the habit of clipping the wickets from England hes developed the good parts of his game too.

he has come in contact with the Mumbo-jumbo group only a few weeks directly

by Mike Selig Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:06 pm

That article is the biggest load of rubbish I have read in a while, including some of KPF's messages.

The "England coach quality and mystery out of young talent" line is a good 10-15 years out of date. As things stand currently, England lead the way with coach education including areas of talent ID, not overcoaching, and player driven pathways. There are still some dinosaurs left over from the Gooch captain era at club levels, but they are becoming more and more marginal, and the top clubs and districts all have modern and forward thinking coaches AFAIK.

Not surprising from Dobbell who is becoming more and more a parody of himself with his constantly anti-ECB articles.

by GloriousEmpire Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:06 pm

I don't know any other kiwi bowlers that no-ball that way. Seems to be something he's picked up recently.

by Hoggy_Bear Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:10 pm

Didn't take long for the "Stokes is a Kiwi" line to be trotted out did it? Rolling Eyes

by Mike Selig Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:13 pm

Quick appeal: can we stop feeding the WUMs? Can us reasonable people not just ignore their posts entirely and collectively, and get on with discussing things in a reasonable and sensible manner?

It is becoming very tiring...

by Stella Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:13 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Didn't take long for the "Stokes is a Kiwi" line to be trotted out did it?

He'll be a useless Englishman if he goes downhill

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:23 pm

Most fingers are pointing in the same direction...sack Flower.
I agree if they cannot afford Warne....vaughan wouldn't be a bad option.

The coach should be one who allows Eng to express themselves and let the captain be his own man

England's coach Andy Flower has run his race
Date
January 3, 2014 - 7:48PM

Dean Jones
Cricket columnist

The captain, coach and selectors have a lot to do with England losing the plot in this series.

At the crossroads: Coach Andy Flower (left) should be replaced, but skipper Alastair Cook needs help from former captains. Photo: Getty Images

As the norm, after every sporting annihilation there is a serious postmortem to see what went wrong. Clearly, this England team has put in a shocker.

When a team capitulates as easily as England has on this tour, something tells me there are many problems within its structure and culture. Great buildings or structures just don't fall over that easily. Their strong foundations won’t allow that to happen under any circumstances. Basically, England received two punches on the chin from Brad Haddin and Mitchell Johnson on the first day at the Gabba and hasn’t got up from the canvas.

English and Australian captains are measured on how their team plays within an Ashes series.

Recently, England has had a good run under Alastair Cook’s reign, winning five of his past six series. But the way England lost at the MCG showed me that it has lost the plot and it was mainly caused by the captain, coach and selectors.

First, the selection of Jonny Bairstow was a shocker. I firmly believe any Test team must have a specialist wicketkeeper. Bairstow isn’t in the best six keepers in England and not in the top 20 batsmen, and yet he was selected in front of Matt Prior. I know Prior is out of sorts, but utility keepers don’t work in Test cricket and Prior’s record should have entitled him to play out the series as he is the best keeper in England.

Throwing raw leg-spinner Scott Borthwick to the wolves in the SCG Test was another bad call.

The English batting has been woeful. Ian Bell or Kevin Pietersen must bat at No.3. I prefer Pietersen because I believe he needs a challenge. He looks bored. He needs a challenge in life and batting at three could be the answer. Also, I would field him at gully, instead of on the boundary, to get him involved in the match.

The captaincy of Cook on the morning of day three in Melbourne was the worst I have seen in Test cricket. With Haddin and Nathan Lyon at the crease, we saw fieldsmen spread all over the MCG, with bowlers having private meetings, and no direction from the captain. It was deplorable. After the first hour, England lost all momentum and that was enough for Australia to go in for the kill. It was almost a sackable offence there and then for Cook. But, as I looked around the field, there were no leaders putting their hand up to help Cook. They still have no idea how to get Haddin out and were playing reactive cricket.

All I saw was Pietersen asleep in the deep, Bell thinking of how to make runs, and their vice-captain taking out drinks.

So this smouldering wreck has been thrown into the lap of Paul Downton, the new managing director of the England and Wales Cricket Board. His biggest job is finding out what went wrong and what can be salvaged from this mess. Should Cook stay as captain? Should Andy Flower stay as coach? Have they got too many staff?

Let’s talk about the England captaincy. Is Cook the solution or the problem? No doubt England has lacked direction and leadership over this series. Captaincy can be learnt. Allan Border did and so can Cook. There are no other standout candidates within the England squad, as none of his teammates are captain or vice-captain of their counties. The only other candidate is Prior. So Cook is still the solution, in my opinion, but he must look to others for help. Cook can learn from his adversary Michael Clarke, who has a great mentor in Shane Warne. This relationship must not be overlooked or downplayed as Warne challenges Clarke and keeps him positive and instinctive. I feel Cook must take the same lead and look to a David Gower, Mike Brierley or Mike Gatting for inspiration and advice.

Flower is really under some pressure. In AFL parlance, when the president comes out to give the coach the board’s support, you know he has two weeks left. Luckily for Flower, that hasn’t happened yet. But if this England team was an English Premier League team he would have been sacked by now. Flower was a tremendous cricketer and has been a very successful coach. But he has suffered the most humiliating defeat you could think of. He must know that things need to change. He has to get his team back to the level it once knew. He can put up new walls and create more discipline or loosen the noose, so to speak, and allow the players more freedom, as Darren Lehmann has by letting the Australian players take more responsibility in their games and allowing them to play more freely.

Sadly for Flower, I think he has run his race and I would be looking for other aspirants. England’s best option would be Warne, but it hasn’t got enough money. Others worth considering are Michael Vaughan, Tom Moody, Justin Langer or someone from left-field such as Michael Hussey. I probably would lean towards Vaughan, who likes a challenge. The best cricket coaches, I feel, are guys who have been there and done that and Vaughan would bring back that strong English culture he had when he was captain. If England is going to make a change, it needs to do so very quickly. The late change of Micky Arthur made it very difficult for Lehmann and the Australian team to adjust properly before the Ashes series last winter.

Many touring teams seem to turn up their toes before they arrive. They simply don’t prepare properly. If I were a touring coach, I would ask for three four-day matches at Test venues. I would then put up a $250,000 bounty to any team who could beat us. As a coach, you want your team to play very competitive matches and put players under the pump before meeting the Australians in a Test series here. England looked like it was having a net in the touring matches before the Test series and wasn’t ready.

There are many other reasons why England lost this series. Its quicks seem to be down on pace. Its batsmen got worked over and its fielding has been shoddy. And the tourists didn’t help themselves much with their ridiculous dietary requirements. England has simply lost the plot and now needs some tough leadership and direction and that starts with Downton.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/englands-coach-andy-flower-has-run-his-race-20140103-309qv.html#ixzz2pLS4Xltx

by CaledonianCraig Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:28 pm

Mike Selig wrote:Quick appeal: can we stop feeding the WUMs? Can us reasonable people not just ignore their posts entirely and collectively, and get on with discussing things in a reasonable and sensible manner?

It is becoming very tiring...

Spot on.

by Hoggy_Bear Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:40 pm

KP_fan wrote:Most fingers are pointing in the same direction...sack Flower.
I agree if they cannot afford Warne....vaughan wouldn't be a bad option.

The coach should be one who allows Eng to express themselves and let the captain be his own man

England's coach Andy Flower has run his race
Date
January 3, 2014 - 7:48PM

Dean Jones
Cricket columnist

The captain, coach and selectors have a lot to do with England losing the plot in this series.

At the crossroads: Coach Andy Flower (left) should be replaced, but skipper Alastair Cook needs help from former captains. Photo: Getty Images

As the norm, after every sporting annihilation there is a serious postmortem to see what went wrong. Clearly, this England team has put in a shocker.

When a team capitulates as easily as England has on this tour, something tells me there are many problems within its structure and culture. Great buildings or structures just don't fall over that easily. Their strong foundations won’t allow that to happen under any circumstances. Basically, England received two punches on the chin from Brad Haddin and Mitchell Johnson on the first day at the Gabba and hasn’t got up from the canvas.

English and Australian captains are measured on how their team plays within an Ashes series.

Recently, England has had a good run under Alastair Cook’s reign, winning five of his past six series. But the way England lost at the MCG showed me that it has lost the plot and it was mainly caused by the captain, coach and selectors.

First, the selection of Jonny Bairstow was a shocker. I firmly believe any Test team must have a specialist wicketkeeper. Bairstow isn’t in the best six keepers in England and not in the top 20 batsmen, and yet he was selected in front of Matt Prior. I know Prior is out of sorts, but utility keepers don’t work in Test cricket and Prior’s record should have entitled him to play out the series as he is the best keeper in England.

Throwing raw leg-spinner Scott Borthwick to the wolves in the SCG Test was another bad call.

The English batting has been woeful. Ian Bell or Kevin Pietersen must bat at No.3. I prefer Pietersen because I believe he needs a challenge. He looks bored. He needs a challenge in life and batting at three could be the answer. Also, I would field him at gully, instead of on the boundary, to get him involved in the match.

The captaincy of Cook on the morning of day three in Melbourne was the worst I have seen in Test cricket. With Haddin and Nathan Lyon at the crease, we saw fieldsmen spread all over the MCG, with bowlers having private meetings, and no direction from the captain. It was deplorable. After the first hour, England lost all momentum and that was enough for Australia to go in for the kill. It was almost a sackable offence there and then for Cook. But, as I looked around the field, there were no leaders putting their hand up to help Cook. They still have no idea how to get Haddin out and were playing reactive cricket.

All I saw was Pietersen asleep in the deep, Bell thinking of how to make runs, and their vice-captain taking out drinks.

So this smouldering wreck has been thrown into the lap of Paul Downton, the new managing director of the England and Wales Cricket Board. His biggest job is finding out what went wrong and what can be salvaged from this mess. Should Cook stay as captain? Should Andy Flower stay as coach? Have they got too many staff?

Let’s talk about the England captaincy. Is Cook the solution or the problem? No doubt England has lacked direction and leadership over this series. Captaincy can be learnt. Allan Border did and so can Cook. There are no other standout candidates within the England squad, as none of his teammates are captain or vice-captain of their counties. The only other candidate is Prior. So Cook is still the solution, in my opinion, but he must look to others for help. Cook can learn from his adversary Michael Clarke, who has a great mentor in Shane Warne. This relationship must not be overlooked or downplayed as Warne challenges Clarke and keeps him positive and instinctive. I feel Cook must take the same lead and look to a David Gower, Mike Brierley or Mike Gatting for inspiration and advice.

Flower is really under some pressure. In AFL parlance, when the president comes out to give the coach the board’s support, you know he has two weeks left. Luckily for Flower, that hasn’t happened yet. But if this England team was an English Premier League team he would have been sacked by now. Flower was a tremendous cricketer and has been a very successful coach. But he has suffered the most humiliating defeat you could think of. He must know that things need to change. He has to get his team back to the level it once knew. He can put up new walls and create more discipline or loosen the noose, so to speak, and allow the players more freedom, as Darren Lehmann has by letting the Australian players take more responsibility in their games and allowing them to play more freely.

Sadly for Flower, I think he has run his race and I would be looking for other aspirants. England’s best option would be Warne, but it hasn’t got enough money. Others worth considering are Michael Vaughan, Tom Moody, Justin Langer or someone from left-field such as Michael Hussey. I probably would lean towards Vaughan, who likes a challenge. The best cricket coaches, I feel, are guys who have been there and done that and Vaughan would bring back that strong English culture he had when he was captain. If England is going to make a change, it needs to do so very quickly. The late change of Micky Arthur made it very difficult for Lehmann and the Australian team to adjust properly before the Ashes series last winter.

Many touring teams seem to turn up their toes before they arrive. They simply don’t prepare properly. If I were a touring coach, I would ask for three four-day matches at Test venues. I would then put up a $250,000 bounty to any team who could beat us. As a coach, you want your team to play very competitive matches and put players under the pump before meeting the Australians in a Test series here. England looked like it was having a net in the touring matches before the Test series and wasn’t ready.

There are many other reasons why England lost this series. Its quicks seem to be down on pace. Its batsmen got worked over and its fielding has been shoddy. And the tourists didn’t help themselves much with their ridiculous dietary requirements. England has simply lost the plot and now needs some tough leadership and direction and that starts with Downton.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/englands-coach-andy-flower-has-run-his-race-20140103-309qv.html#ixzz2pLS4Xltx

Why would Warne or Vaughan be England's best options?
How much coaching experience have they got?
Being a good player, even a good captain, doesn't neccessarily mean you're going to be a good coach.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:45 pm

Well to be fair it was Warne that said only bad players need coaches ...

by GloriousEmpire Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:51 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Most fingers are pointing in the same direction...sack Flower.
I agree if they cannot afford Warne....vaughan wouldn't be a bad option.

The coach should be one who allows Eng to express themselves and let the captain be his own man

England's coach Andy Flower has run his race
Date
January 3, 2014 - 7:48PM

Dean Jones
Cricket columnist

The captain, coach and selectors have a lot to do with England losing the plot in this series.

At the crossroads: Coach Andy Flower (left) should be replaced, but skipper Alastair Cook needs help from former captains. Photo: Getty Images

As the norm, after every sporting annihilation there is a serious postmortem to see what went wrong. Clearly, this England team has put in a shocker.

When a team capitulates as easily as England has on this tour, something tells me there are many problems within its structure and culture. Great buildings or structures just don't fall over that easily. Their strong foundations won’t allow that to happen under any circumstances. Basically, England received two punches on the chin from Brad Haddin and Mitchell Johnson on the first day at the Gabba and hasn’t got up from the canvas.

English and Australian captains are measured on how their team plays within an Ashes series.

Recently, England has had a good run under Alastair Cook’s reign, winning five of his past six series. But the way England lost at the MCG showed me that it has lost the plot and it was mainly caused by the captain, coach and selectors.

First, the selection of Jonny Bairstow was a shocker. I firmly believe any Test team must have a specialist wicketkeeper. Bairstow isn’t in the best six keepers in England and not in the top 20 batsmen, and yet he was selected in front of Matt Prior. I know Prior is out of sorts, but utility keepers don’t work in Test cricket and Prior’s record should have entitled him to play out the series as he is the best keeper in England.

Throwing raw leg-spinner Scott Borthwick to the wolves in the SCG Test was another bad call.

The English batting has been woeful. Ian Bell or Kevin Pietersen must bat at No.3. I prefer Pietersen because I believe he needs a challenge. He looks bored. He needs a challenge in life and batting at three could be the answer. Also, I would field him at gully, instead of on the boundary, to get him involved in the match.

The captaincy of Cook on the morning of day three in Melbourne was the worst I have seen in Test cricket. With Haddin and Nathan Lyon at the crease, we saw fieldsmen spread all over the MCG, with bowlers having private meetings, and no direction from the captain. It was deplorable. After the first hour, England lost all momentum and that was enough for Australia to go in for the kill. It was almost a sackable offence there and then for Cook. But, as I looked around the field, there were no leaders putting their hand up to help Cook. They still have no idea how to get Haddin out and were playing reactive cricket.

All I saw was Pietersen asleep in the deep, Bell thinking of how to make runs, and their vice-captain taking out drinks.

So this smouldering wreck has been thrown into the lap of Paul Downton, the new managing director of the England and Wales Cricket Board. His biggest job is finding out what went wrong and what can be salvaged from this mess. Should Cook stay as captain? Should Andy Flower stay as coach? Have they got too many staff?

Let’s talk about the England captaincy. Is Cook the solution or the problem? No doubt England has lacked direction and leadership over this series. Captaincy can be learnt. Allan Border did and so can Cook. There are no other standout candidates within the England squad, as none of his teammates are captain or vice-captain of their counties. The only other candidate is Prior. So Cook is still the solution, in my opinion, but he must look to others for help. Cook can learn from his adversary Michael Clarke, who has a great mentor in Shane Warne. This relationship must not be overlooked or downplayed as Warne challenges Clarke and keeps him positive and instinctive. I feel Cook must take the same lead and look to a David Gower, Mike Brierley or Mike Gatting for inspiration and advice.

Flower is really under some pressure. In AFL parlance, when the president comes out to give the coach the board’s support, you know he has two weeks left. Luckily for Flower, that hasn’t happened yet. But if this England team was an English Premier League team he would have been sacked by now. Flower was a tremendous cricketer and has been a very successful coach. But he has suffered the most humiliating defeat you could think of. He must know that things need to change. He has to get his team back to the level it once knew. He can put up new walls and create more discipline or loosen the noose, so to speak, and allow the players more freedom, as Darren Lehmann has by letting the Australian players take more responsibility in their games and allowing them to play more freely.

Sadly for Flower, I think he has run his race and I would be looking for other aspirants. England’s best option would be Warne, but it hasn’t got enough money. Others worth considering are Michael Vaughan, Tom Moody, Justin Langer or someone from left-field such as Michael Hussey. I probably would lean towards Vaughan, who likes a challenge. The best cricket coaches, I feel, are guys who have been there and done that and Vaughan would bring back that strong English culture he had when he was captain. If England is going to make a change, it needs to do so very quickly. The late change of Micky Arthur made it very difficult for Lehmann and the Australian team to adjust properly before the Ashes series last winter.

Many touring teams seem to turn up their toes before they arrive. They simply don’t prepare properly. If I were a touring coach, I would ask for three four-day matches at Test venues. I would then put up a $250,000 bounty to any team who could beat us. As a coach, you want your team to play very competitive matches and put players under the pump before meeting the Australians in a Test series here. England looked like it was having a net in the touring matches before the Test series and wasn’t ready.

There are many other reasons why England lost this series. Its quicks seem to be down on pace. Its batsmen got worked over and its fielding has been shoddy. And the tourists didn’t help themselves much with their ridiculous dietary requirements. England has simply lost the plot and now needs some tough leadership and direction and that starts with Downton.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/englands-coach-andy-flower-has-run-his-race-20140103-309qv.html#ixzz2pLS4Xltx

Why would Warne or Vaughan be England's best options?
How much coaching experience have they got?
Being a good player, even a good captain, doesn't neccessarily mean you're going to be a good coach.

Yep. Has anyone heard just what Martin Johnson is doing these days? Run

by Mike Selig Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:51 pm

The point about the lack of meaningful practice matches is an interesting one, but the finger is pointed in the wrong direction. It is of course the Australian board who denied England any meaningful practice matches, identifying rightly that England's preparation last time had played a non-negligeable part in their success. Indeed, with the exception of that last ashes tour, it seems to be a growing trend that the point of warm-up matches nowadays is for the home side to do their best to prevent the touring team by all means possible (below standard opposition, untypical wickets) from getting any meaningful practice out of them... I have deplored this for a while now, but...

What did we make of England's debutants then? I saw enough from Borthwick to think he could make a decent cricketer someday - I'll be interested to see how he bats. He reminds me a bit of Steve Smith in the last ashes series - unsure whether he is a batsman who bowls or a bowler who bats. If the former, does he really fit into this England side, given Stokes seems to have the all-rounder slot nailed down at least for the forseeable future. It is clear his bowling isn't yet ready to be the number 1 spinner in the side.

Rankin I was a bit less impressed with. His bounce could be a real weapon, but he'll need to pitch it a couple of feet further up - at his pace and at this level, back of a length isn't all that threatening, you need bounce from a length. Unfortunately when he did pitch it up he looked a bit floaty and lost his wrist position. He strikes me as a bit of an old-fashioned cricketer, a bit slow and ponderous in the field. Of course he hasn't really been brought up in a professional environment, so this is not really his fault, but it does mean his bowling has to be very very good to earn his place. At the moment I'm not sure it can be that good.

Ballance of course we only saw in the field. He looked keen, and moved quickly for a guy with his bulk. Could probably stand to lose a couple of kilos (look to Warner for a great example of a guy of his build). I'm very confused as to why in the modern and professional era, it is still accepted practice that your debutant goes to short-leg - surely that is one of the toughest positions and hence requires a specialist? Australia did it with Khawaja (who was terrible there) and now Bailey (who is a lot better) so it's not just England of course.

by GloriousEmpire Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:54 pm

I think practise matches is a red herring. If England had a host of warm up matches, and played poorly the word would have been that they were "keeping the powder dry" blah blah blah, no lessons would've been heeded. Had they inevitably gone on to play as poorly again as they have in the series then the talk would've been of why they'd "tired themselves out" playing "meaningless matches" in the "oppressive heat" blah blah blah. It's a lazy stick to beat the excuse tree with, but that's about it.

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:05 pm

hoggy wrote:Why would Warne or Vaughan be England's best options?
How much coaching experience have they got?
Being a good player, even a good captain, doesn't neccessarily mean you're going to be a good coach.

that's precisely the point.....does England really need a technical and micro-management coach.

OR more like a motivator and high level startegist who pulls every one together....and allows them to express their personalities ....like a Lehman equivalent ?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:07 pm

Do you really want Monty expresses his true personality on the pitch? Didnt they have enough trouble with that already?

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:17 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Do you really want Monty expresses his true personality on the pitch? Didnt they have enough trouble with that already?

Natural cricketing personality......
for example....Monty has to be able to exprerss his true cricketing personality..the simpleton he is and knows how to bowl spin.......that's it.
the excessive technical adjustments...too much of micro-planning...psychological conditioning can confuse and damage the simple minds.
Juts keep it simple...let them go and bat/ bowl freely to a high level startegy and using cricketing commonsense......with a lot of fun in a relaxed environment.
and not the tight discipline where every visit to bathroom is logged and every Morsel of Lentil eaten is tracked

by Nachos Jones Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:24 pm

Wow, I never imagined that the cricket section would go downhill but the amount of drivel being spouted on here is quite high.

Re meaningful practice matches, I fully agree with Mike that its becoming a trend to not provide touring sides these matches. I fully understand the reasoning but it does annoy me.

I actually thought that Boyd Rankin would do well at the SCG but something is not right that he had to go off twice for cramp? He is also not a very young player so I don't think that he will have a big future in the team so I would prefer some younger options looked at if the management persist in not selecting Finn.

by GloriousEmpire Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:41 pm

Nachos Jones wrote:Wow, I never imagined that the cricket section would go downhill but the amount of drivel being spouted on here is quite high.

Re meaningful practice matches, I fully agree with Mike that its becoming a trend to not provide touring sides these matches. I fully understand the reasoning but it does annoy me.

I actually thought that Boyd Rankin would do well at the SCG but something is not right that he had to go off twice for cramp? He is also not a very young player so I don't think that he will have a big future in the team so I would prefer some younger options looked at if the management persist in not selecting Finn.

http://www.calmclinic.com/anxiety/symptoms/muscle-cramps

by Nachos Jones Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:47 pm

I was not sure if it was for cramps or if he had done his hamstring GE, hence the question mark. Its a real shame for him if he suffers from anxiety cramps.

by guildfordbat Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:28 pm

Mike Selig wrote:The point about the lack of meaningful practice matches is an interesting one, but the finger is pointed in the wrong direction. It is of course the Australian board who denied England any meaningful practice matches, identifying rightly that England's preparation last time had played a non-negligeable part in their success. Indeed, with the exception of that last ashes tour, it seems to be a growing trend that the point of warm-up matches nowadays is for the home side to do their best to prevent the touring team by all means possible (below standard opposition, untypical wickets) from getting any meaningful practice out of them... I have deplored this for a while now, but...
.

I was discussing this matter, particularly with Alfie, during the Third Test. From my post then:
''Easier said than done, but I do feel there should be some sort of obligation and agreement from all countries that when they are hosting a Test series, they will endeavour to provide a reasonable standard of opposition in warm up games. I can understand why (and know it has always happened to an extent) but the sides put out to play tourists these days do appear to be increasingly weak. Not a dig at just Australia; it is the case in most countries.''

by GloriousEmpire Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:30 pm

There has already been four test matches to warm up in. Surely after the first test they should've been warm enough. I can't see that adding an extra few matches prior to the test would have made the least difference given the homogeneity of performance throughout the series.

Blaming Australia for England's poor form is fairly dire. Time to lose with grace.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:53 pm

Mike Selig wrote:The point about the lack of meaningful practice matches is an interesting one, but the finger is pointed in the wrong direction. It is of course the Australian board who denied England any meaningful practice matches, identifying rightly that England's preparation last time had played a non-negligeable part in their success. Indeed, with the exception of that last ashes tour, it seems to be a growing trend that the point of warm-up matches nowadays is for the home side to do their best to prevent the touring team by all means possible (below standard opposition, untypical wickets) from getting any meaningful practice out of them... I have deplored this for a while now, but...

What did we make of England's debutants then? I saw enough from Borthwick to think he could make a decent cricketer someday - I'll be interested to see how he bats. He reminds me a bit of Steve Smith in the last ashes series - unsure whether he is a batsman who bowls or a bowler who bats. If the former, does he really fit into this England side, given Stokes seems to have the all-rounder slot nailed down at least for the forseeable future. It is clear his bowling isn't yet ready to be the number 1 spinner in the side.

Rankin I was a bit less impressed with. His bounce could be a real weapon, but he'll need to pitch it a couple of feet further up - at his pace and at this level, back of a length isn't all that threatening, you need bounce from a length. Unfortunately when he did pitch it up he looked a bit floaty and lost his wrist position. He strikes me as a bit of an old-fashioned cricketer, a bit slow and ponderous in the field. Of course he hasn't really been brought up in a professional environment, so this is not really his fault, but it does mean his bowling has to be very very good to earn his place. At the moment I'm not sure it can be that good.

Ballance of course we only saw in the field. He looked keen, and moved quickly for a guy with his bulk. Could probably stand to lose a couple of kilos (look to Warner for a great example of a guy of his build). I'm very confused as to why in the modern and professional era, it is still accepted practice that your debutant goes to short-leg - surely that is one of the toughest positions and hence requires a specialist? Australia did it with Khawaja (who was terrible there) and now Bailey (who is a lot better) so it's not just England of course.

I thought Borthwick did alright considering he really isn't a frontline spinner. Obviously not international class in his bowling, but carried himself well and certainly didn't go into his shell ala Kerrigan. Be interested to see how he bats. I can see the Steve Smith comparison, I think England will hope he becomes more of a bowler than a bat like smith has. Also a good slipper apparently, all helps.

Rankin to me didn't look up to it. Too many wayward deliveries, his fuller balls looked very floaty to me, not threatening. If its true it was cramp, not an injury that's a little bit embarrassing in all honesty. Should be fitter than that.

I'll be interested to see how Balance goes in bat. I noticed on the county section how the Yorks supporter (name eludes me) was saying not only was Balance scoring runs, but he was scoring them in touch and crucial situations, which is undoubtedly a good attribute.

Also interested to see how long it takes Bairstow to get bowled by a straight one. I'll say 16 balls

by Guest Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:12 pm

Borthwick will get better and better the more he bowls, + the fact he bats and bats well is a huge plus.... i saw enough of his bowling to be encouraged.

by GloriousEmpire Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:47 pm

Wait up there - he hasn't batted yet.

by CaledonianCraig Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:49 pm

Well one thing is sure he cannot be a worse batter then Month is - I mean nobody is.

by **Pal Joey** Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:50 pm

I'll get a good look at him and all the other players today - try and get a seat near where they come out of the race onto the ground. Maybe migrate over to the new stands later on in the day where I actually prefer to view the game (better angle more behind the bowler's arm at the Paddo End) Looking forward to it. A big day ahead for both sides. Can England dig in and put a decent score on the board or will it be another day for the Australians?

I have slight butterflies.... and I need to slap some sunscreen... at 05:50!
I'll be out the door in 10 mins. Long day ahead.

by GloriousEmpire Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:51 pm

Im at the airport. Take off in an hour or so. I just pray the match isn't over before I get there!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:59 pm

God they havent called up another kiwi have they?

by KP_fan Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:17 pm

Ish sodhi's motehr was born in UK Wink

by Guest Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:49 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Wait up there - he hasn't batted yet.

Borthwick bats 3 for Durham, and scored over 1000 runs in last year's 4 day comp.

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