why Sarries may lose to the stronger teams

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/a-daunting-task-but-toulouse-have-shown-connacht-where-saracens-can-be-exposed-1.1657823

Above is a very good and detailed look into why Sarries struggle against the big teams.

My knowledge of the finer things would not be as good as others so wondering what you thought.

He goes why it may work in England but not the bigger teams

This is not a dig at Sarries as they are Top 5/6 in Europe but maybe what they need to go that next step.

No wolf ball. I talk about Connacht a lot because firstly they are in the same HC group as my team and 2ndly because of their involvement in the HC

Notch is it just a coincidence then that most sides who play Saracens happen to play poorly? Nothing to do with Saracens themselves?

Saracens make sides look worse than they are because the defence is generally so strong, they frustrate at the set piece and breakdown.


Just because Connacht find it difficult to handle the Vunipola bros it doesn't mean the Connacht players were disinterested. Most of the Saracens side were either current or ex internationals.

Allianz Park has proven to be a very tough ground to go to. Just ask the likes of Quins,Leicester, Bath, Gloucester and Exeter.

They were taking on a side with far better players and coaches, away from home, on a unfamiliar pitch, a side also motivated to give someone a brutal beating,

I said before the game it wouldn't surprise me if Connacht were put to the sword. So it proved.

As you say wolf ball with your disadvantages as the poor relative of the other regions, you did well to beat Toulouse and cause a scare at Galway vs Sarries.

I think perhaps its because you believe Connacht are better than they are. I would say Connacht have done very poorly in the Pro 12 but should be proud of their win vs Toulouse in the HC.

To win 3 matches when you have Toulouse and Saracens in your pool is good.

beshocked wrote:Notch is it just a coincidence then that most sides who play Saracens happen to play poorly? Nothing to do with Saracens themselves?

Saracens performance was such that they were always going to win that game with a bonus point- four tries minimum. They scored eleven. In the second half, Connacht missed nearly every second tackle ffs.

I'm not saying that Saracens didn't deserve to take all five points or that they wouldn't have had a comfortable win by a margin of 20-35 points had Connacht put in a respectable performance. Saracens played some very good rugby but if Hodgson had made his kicks they could have conceded 80 points. There's no gulf like that at this level of rugby without a significant under-performance from the team on the receiving end. Connacht just broke mentally in the second half. If you think they weren't disinterested then I'd seriously question your judgment.

Only watched just past half-time. Thought the Vunipolas were exceptional, particularly Mako. The thing about Sarries now is that it still feels like they're a team that still has a lot more they could be doing. I can't tell if it's that they have more gears to go through or whether it's that they've focused on areas they feel will be enough for them to win, but in a weird way it's frustrating. I really hope McCall and others just keep steadily adding strings to their bow, as they seem to be doing.

The scrum in particular really should be worked on, the body positions of the props are awful. Feels like this could be much more of a weapon given the bulk behind them.

Personally I also find them far better to watch with CH playing 10 not Farrell, some great touches and kicks in behind.

Notch wrote:

beshocked wrote:Notch is it just a coincidence then that most sides who play Saracens happen to play poorly? Nothing to do with Saracens themselves?

Saracens performance was such that they were always going to win that game with a bonus point- four tries minimum. They scored eleven. In the second half, Connacht missed nearly every second tackle ffs.

I'm not saying that Saracens didn't deserve to take all five points or that they wouldn't have had a comfortable win by a margin of 20-35 points had Connacht put in a respectable performance. Saracens played some very good rugby but if Hodgson had made his kicks they could have conceded 80 points. There's no gulf like that at this level of rugby without a significant under-performance from the team on the receiving end. Connacht just broke mentally in the second half. If you think they weren't disinterested then I'd seriously question your judgment.

I think you're right that in the second half their heads dropped, but in the first they seemed very much up for it. Yes their performance wasn't great, but I thought Sarries were very very slick. I think Connacht melted when they realised they just couldn't stop Sarries ball carriers on the gainline. They had about 10 minutes of success on this but then kept getting battered backwards. No shame in that, but I think the best Conancht performance would have seen a bonus point win for Sarries, they just have some unbelievably big guys!

With Farrell at 10, Sarries cant play the expansive rugby that they are capable of. I truly believe that Farrell does not suit that team and the style of rugby they want to play. It is such a different team when Hodgson plays at 10 with his attacking intent.

beshocked wrote:No wolf ball. I talk about Connacht a lot because firstly they are in the same HC group as my team and 2ndly because of their involvement in the HC

That is simply untrue; for a year before we were drawn together, every discussion on heineken cup qualification involving you always referred to Connacht and how we would be so much better in the Amlin. Well are we worth our place or not?

beshocked wrote:Just because Connacht find it difficult to handle the Vunipola bros it doesn't mean the Connacht players were disinterested. Most of the Saracens side were either current or ex internationals.

Yes it does. Connacht at their best would not beat Saracens at their best. There is a gulf. But we didnt even try. You can say the scoreline is because of the gulf in class. I say its an issue of attitude. We have proven we are within a couple of scores of the big boys, not 11 trys. And you can patronise all you want about how we should be happy with 3 wins and other such nonsense, but we can easily be at a higher level if we actually Frak try and we didnt even try yesterday.

Hodgson was majestic yesterday. The variety to his game, quality of passing and precision in his offloads was the best display by a 10 all season in this comp. Obviously a large part of that was the fact that the forwards gave him a simple ride and plenty of space but either way he was very good. Just a pity about his terrible kicking.

I really hope he's staying at Sarries for a long time and Farrell can learn a lot from him.

You still have not earnt a HC place through your own merits. I will always hold that against you till you prove otherwise.

It's not attitude. Saracens have better players,coaches and far more resources. Attitude can get you a certain way but you need more than that.

You say you didn't even try...did you watch the same game? Connacht were huffing and puffing but couldn't make much impact, not through lack of effort. Frustration is the best word to sum it up. You got a man sent to the bin and started a punch up because of a try conceded. To me that doesn't show that the players didn't care. They just had no solution.


I could agree that Connacht's morale would be low in the 2nd half but that's hardly surprising when there's a feeling that there's no way to build any momentum whatsoever.

Saracens destroyed Connacht's morale by giving them no respite. You could argue that Connacht should have shown more backbone in the 2nd half but when you're being relentlessly battered its difficult to compose oneself surely?

Connacht aren't the first side to be hit by a 2nd half onslaught by Saracens.

You say that you can easily be on a higher level. I feel it is you with the unrealistic expectations. That frustrates me too. It's also the attitude - that one win vs Toulouse makes Connacht a decent side worthy of HC entry. As if 1 good win makes up for numerous losses.

Connacht will always be the plucky underdog until they consistently prove otherwise. Winning more matches in the league would help this. You want more respect and teams to fear you - earn it. It's tough though - I understand that - being the poor relation of the other regions, not getting the funding and support you need. Is Lam the right man? Perhaps not but its a tough job.

[quote="beshocked"]You still have not earnt a HC place through your own merits. I will always hold that against you till you prove otherwise.

It's not attitude. Saracens have better players,coaches and far more resources. Attitude can get you a certain way but you need more than that.

You say you didn't even try...did you watch the same game? Connacht were huffing and puffing but couldn't make much impact, not through lack of effort. Frustration is the best word to sum it up. You got a man sent to the bin and started a punch up because of a try conceded. To me that doesn't show that the players didn't care. They just had no solution.


I could agree that Connacht's morale would be low in the 2nd half but that's hardly surprising when there's a feeling that there's no way to build any momentum whatsoever.

Saracens destroyed Connacht's morale by giving them no respite.  You could argue that Connacht should have shown more backbone in the 2nd half but when you're being relentlessly battered its difficult to compose oneself surely?

Connacht aren't the first side to be hit by a 2nd half onslaught by Saracens.

You say that you can easily be on a higher level. I feel it is you with the unrealistic expectations. That frustrates me too.  It's also the attitude - that one win vs Toulouse makes Connacht a decent side worthy of HC entry. As if 1 good win makes up for numerous losses.

Connacht will always be the plucky underdog until they consistently prove otherwise. Winning more matches in the league would help this. You want more respect and teams to fear you - earn it. It's tough though - I understand that - being the poor relation of the other regions, not getting the funding and support you need. Is Lam the right man? Perhaps not but its a tough job.

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Mate you still don't get it. You have no idea whether my expectations are realistic because you watch, what 4-5 matches involving Connacht a season? If that? Outside of those matches you have not got a clue. We barely tried after the first minute. We were disinterested, had little structure in our fielding (always a strenght) and gave away the breakdown. You can say its because Saracens were amazing, and they were good. But the loss wasnt decided in the second half - it was the psychology from the first whistle. That is the issue with this Connacht side, not the skillset of the players. And you do not watch them every week to know that. And you may want to excuse a team that gives up because of a hammering, but I think that any team that gives up is pathetic. When I played I was part of teams that were smashed, but we played till we collapsed. There was no sign of that. I love Connacht, I had to played Gaelic football until a chance meeting got me to try out for Ballinrobe RFC at 14. I never looked back, and have watched the growth of a minor minor sport in Connacht grow into a sport that at least some of the Mayo/Galway GAA crowd care about. Its not good enough to lose like we did yesterday. I wish ye the best of luck in the next round, and hope we play again.

Wolfball yes of course it must be down to Connacht not trying! If Connacht had tried they would have won! Look they beat Toulouse! You seem to think your team and its players are better than they are.

Hardly disinterested when stamping on our players or starting punch ups.

You are only saying they were disinterested because they got destroyed - it's an excuse - we lost because we didn't turn up blah blah. It's the coaches fault blah blah. Our players are great- they only played badly because they didn't care about this match - obviously nothing was at stake....

I am not saying that Connacht played anywhere near their best or tried in the whole match but they were never allowed to feel comfortable. Saracens gave them no chance to build any meaningful momentum.

If Connacht were the first side to get thumped by Sarries, you might have a point but many sides have been beaten heavily at Allianz Park.

Well I would like to see how your morale would be if you had to tackle the Vunipola bros for 80 minutes for example.

I never knew that stamping and starting punch ups was a way of seeing how much a team is trying.
I always thought it was making big hits, hitting rucks hard and getting off the gain line as fast as you can to make the tackle..

Nobody expected Connacht to win. (Not even Lam judging by his pre match comments)  But you can't expect Connacht fans to just roll over and accept that manner of defeat. They simply never looked up for the game end of and the coach has to answer for that. Is there something wrong in the squad? Do they agree with Lam's tactics and way of coaching. They would have never played like that under Elwood.

Leinsterfan4life well the stamping and starting punch ups shows they have passion. Is passion the same as trying? If one is disinterested they wouldn't care - there would be no point of a punch up.

Not saying that fans should accept defeat like that. I am saying that the coach should not be facing being sacked after losing this match.

This was a game that most people expected Connacht to lose heavily - that happened.

Easy excuse to blame the coaches.

The players must take some responsibility for their poor performance.

They should accept that they were facing a much stronger side than themselves with far more advantages.

beshocked wrote:Wolfball yes of course it must be down to Connacht not trying! If Connacht had tried they would have won! Look they beat Toulouse!  

Jeez man, you can be some kind of fool! Would you ever just read what people are saying instead of trotting out this patronising drivel?

I said if Connacht brought maximum intensity and performed to their full intensity they might still have been beaten by 25-30 points. It's possible for Saracens to play very well AND Connacht to play well below what they are capable of. No-one is saying Saracens wouldn't have won that game, people are saying the difference between a thirty-point margin and a sixty-point margin comes down to Connachts performance. In my opinion, Saracens were always on for a BP from the early stages of that game and they got it, and after it was already decided that that would happen Connacht fell apart and they capitalised.

The fact that wolfball has written a very gracious and polite response to you explaining his position, wished you the best of luck and you've responded with that is mystifying. I'm not saying this as a mod, you've broken no rules but as one rugby fan to another have a bit of cop on and enjoy your victory with a bit of grace and class.

Am I correct Saracens will play Ulster in the QF of the HC?

beshocked wrote:Leinsterfan4life well the stamping and starting punch ups shows they have passion. 

 

Biltong wrote:Am I correct Saracens will play Ulster in the QF of the HC?

You are indeed.

Cheers, another question, Ulster and Munster will both have home QF, what about Leinster?

Leinster are away in their quarter final.  See this post for all the details on quarters and semis

https://www.606v2.com/t51138-heineken-cup-2014-knockout-stages

Notch of course I am sure Connacht did not play close to their potential but that obviously can be down to the opposition too. If team A stops team B from gaining any momentum whatsoever - e.g. Stealing team Bs line out ball, getting turnovers, suffocating their attacks and knocking them back it makes team B look poor.

Case in point Toulouse made Saracens' gameplan ineffective by frustrating at the lineout and breakdown.

Team B obviously didn't help themselves either but it's tough to find a solution when you're under the cosh.

If you cut a sides momentum they will struggle.

Also it depends how you interpret a certain passage of play. Is it poor defence or decent attack? Is it sloppy lineout or great steal?

When you exert pressure it forces errors. Not all are forced of course but where do you draw the line?

I am sorry if I am being ungracious. You are correct. It's just when you see an article like in the main post - it annoyed me because it was completely wrong.

Anyway in rl I am more level headed than on here. I don't mind Connacht at all. I have talked to some of the Connacht fans. I have said nothing controversial or unpleasant.

I want Connacht to do better. Perhaps Lam is not the answer but I feel that more importantly more funding needs to go into Connacht.

Liam Toland was it? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Connacht are in a financial hole which is partly of their own making and partly because they've been living beyond their means to try and keep up with other better funded teams. Just the money alone is no good. The right people have to be involved in administrating it and spending it, and their previous chairman was a bit of a disaster. They have no current full-time CEO and are looking for someone to fill the role. It's very concerning at the moment.

Sorry be shocked, I edited this post as I had been a bit insensitive in it.

Well I am sorry to hear that Notch. I hope Connacht can sort out their financial problems.

I agree - CEO is hugely important to the direction of the club. True - it's not just about having money it's how you use it.

Do they get the same amount of funding as the other regions?

No, its rather unfair.

But the other side of the coin is that Ulster used to get less funding until we got a CEO who is a proper business man with the credentials to persuade the central branch that he wouldn't pish the money up the wall.

Connacht should be nowhere near a top Euro comp. They are useless.

Luck of the Irish wrote:Connacht should be nowhere near a top Euro comp. They are useless.

Welcome back logans  

Connacht aren't useless. They had a good win vs Toulouse and gave Sarries a scare in Galway. League form looks to be poor though.

So Notch basically in your opinion Connacht need a decent CEO.

Connacht ruined life for Quins a couple of seasons back as well don't forget.

They're tough to break down but once they're behind struggle.

Anyway well done Sarries, Goode had a very impressive match showing a lot of awareness of space and vision, which interestingly is probably Mike Browns biggest weakness.

Thanks yappysnap. Goode's been playing well this season. Brown will retain the full back slot for England but Goode is an able back up.