10 Worst performances by a Defending Heavyweight Champion !!

First topic message reminder :

1. SELDON vs Tyson

2. BRUNO vs Tyson

3. PATTERSON vs Liston

4. SHARKEY vs Carnera

6. WILLARD vs Dempsey

7. SMITH vs Tyson

8. BAER vs Braddock

9. DOKES vs Coetzee

10. WITHERSPOON vs Smith...............................Only gone up to the end of the Lewis era........Before it all became stupid........

If Conn can give Louis trouble then so could Jones, Louis would be a heavy favourite but it's not a foregone conclusion.

ShahenshahG wrote:Anyone reckon Roy Jones beats Louis?

No.

I'd pretty much see it the same way, Hammersmith. Louis wasn't as mobile as Jones but wasn't a million miles off in terms of hand speed so you'd have to expect him to find the right gap sooner or later. Jones never liked fighting right on the inside in any case, but while he might be able to hold his own there if absolutely necessary against a great Light-Heavy, he'd be running the risk of getting his head taken off if he so much as gave Louis a sniff of an inside exchange, you feel. Also going to the ropes is a no-go.

I think Jones' speed and elusiveness would always give Louis something to think about, but ultimately you'd have to fancy Joe, nearly every time, to just prove that little bit too big, little bit too strong and certainly that little bit too heavy-handed for Jones to deal with. But if they fought a long series of fights, I'd expect Roy to upset the odds and nick a decision somewhere along the way.

You put Jones in the position that Conn was in and I think he goes on to win but that would be the exception rather than the rule. Marciano is a good barometer to use between a great small heavyweight and a light heavyweight, they can be troubled but ultimately almost always overpower the smaller man.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:If Conn can give Louis trouble then so could Jones, Louis would be a heavy favourite but it's not a foregone conclusion.

That's like saying if Glen Johnson and Antonio Tarver could bomb Jones out then Louis would have no bother.

Well I don't think anyone's denying that Louis would probably splatter Jones sooner or later Haz, that's the difference. Whereas no doubt some will be mightily miffed that anyone could suggest that Jones could even give Louis a stern argument before the splattering, never mind go on to outscore him if he was given enough opportunities!

And while Jones' detractors don't like to admit it, something had clearly gone very, very amiss with Jones by the time Tarver and Johnson put him down and out back-to-back in 2004. But that's besides the point, I guess.

See, I think the natural reaction from some might be to look at what either me or Hammersmith have said above and take it as a knock on Louis, or a swipe at him. It's not - it's actually an acknowledgement of Jones' own abilities.

I agree Chris, it's not a slight on Louis, it's an acknowledgement that Jones is superior to Conn in each and every way; speed, power, reflexes, punch variety, everything.

We can look at the worst of Jones but the worst of him was at the tailend of his career when he'd already reached his summit but the issues with Louis were slap bang in the middle of his prime.

Can't see how Jones Jnr manages to win any sort of matchup even if the fought a 100 times. To use Conn as a measuring tool doesn't work , Louis hit Conn with shots that would decapitate Jones , Conn also deployed tactics Jones Jnr couldn't emulate , Roy would run like the wind until he he eventually got tagged.

Jones is unorthodox but not in a Godoy unorthodox way , Louis holds all the aces even in style.

Cheers Rodders

Jones could run, but he couldnt hide

When we constantly discuss the Louis Conn fight which are we referring to, the first one, where Louis won, or the second one, where Louis won?

I think its the imaginary one that Conn won

Morrison v Bentt has to be up there.

I think if you're looking at a champion (rather than a titlist) then I think Buster Douglas (versus Holyfield) is the clear winner.

If you're looking at titlists then that's wide open (if you include all variations of the alphabet nonsense -- Richel Hersisia against King Audley anyone?)

Louis had an off night against hall of famer Conn and was made to look ordinary until he got the opportunity to unload.  So what.  Louis has superior wins but no one feels the need to discuss them ad nauseam.

For all the questioning of Louis that goes on around here remember he only lost once in his 61 fights to retirement and that loss was when he was a green 18 month old pro fighting a former world champion.

If anything I suppose this has turned into a Jones Jr love in.  No need to involve Louis or denigrate him in order to show appreciation to Roy.

Come off it, Strongback. A Jones Jr love in? Shah asked if anyone thought Jones might have been able to beat Louis. Suddenly when a couple of posters state that Jones merely would have given Louis problems before losing, or could have maybe even beaten him once in a while if they fought enough, it becomes a Jones "love in?"

With that question being poised, did anyone really expect Louis-Conn not to be brought up? Appreciate as Rodney says that Jones probably doesn't stand up to some of the bombs Louis landed on Conn before the knockout, but Conn's movement, speed and jab also gave Louis big problems as well as just his inside game. Jones would have to use a slightly different game plan but to pretend that he wasn't much more elusive than Conn and could draw inspiration from what Billy managed for 12 rounds against Louis is a bit odd, I think.

Yes, Conn lost to Louis, but I don't see why people can get so offended and miffed over the idea of a superior fighter in Jones possibly improving on the foundations Conn set and seeing it through - particularly when just about everyone has said that even if he did, it would be the exception, not the rule.

Strongback wrote:heavyweight Louis had an off night against hall of famer light heavyweight Conn .

fixed that for ya strongy  

to be fair ali didn't look at his best against bob foster

milkyboy wrote:

Strongback wrote:heavyweight Louis had an off night against hall of famer light heavyweight Conn .

fixed that for ya strongy  

to be fair ali didn't look at his best against bob foster

Foster cut him I believe. Ali, though, like Louis, caught up with him and made the weight avantage tell.

Maybe James Toney would box the ears off Louis?

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:If Conn can give Louis trouble then so could Jones, Louis would be a heavy favourite but it's not a foregone conclusion.

That's like saying if Glen Johnson and Antonio Tarver could bomb Jones out then Louis would have no bother.

Personally I have no idea If Jones Jr beats Louis............But this is a reason why Haz should be ignored when talking about MODERN fighters...His resentment shouts out a mile away....

1. CONN weighed 170 pounds..............170 pounds !!!!!

2. Jones Jr, Mayweather and Whittaker despite how anyone feels about them personally are renowned as the best technicians of the last 25 years.........

3. I think any fairminded poster would say Jones has a better skillset than Conn..........("I just backed up, made them follow me and punched straight, no roundhouses because then I knew I'd get there first")

4. Jones is a bonafide top 20 ATG great.....

Not to demean Conn who was a top boxer of his day..........But to suggest Jones has no chance when Conn outboxes him at 170 is just a joke and shows you all about some agendas on here...

Have no doubts..........Manny, Hoppo, Mayweather , Jones jr are no where to be seen on this guys top 30 list............

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

Strongback wrote:heavyweight Louis had an off night against hall of famer light heavyweight Conn .

fixed that for ya strongy  

to be fair ali didn't look at his best against bob foster

Foster cut him I believe. Ali, though, like Louis, caught up with him and made the weight avantage tell.

he did haz, flicked the left jab in his face all night, but whenever ali upped his game foster collapsed like a deck of cards... great fighter and big puncher but struggled with punch resistance in his attempts at heavy. Ali looked laboured in the fight, blamed altitude if i recall correctly.

Possibly but Unlikely - not blessed with exceptional reflexes he will have to stay A little further away - he could have make it hard for Louis to land cleanly and extend the fight to the end but less likely than Jones winning. We are all agreed though that David Haye would Knock out Louis with a spinning back fist 5 seconds into the fight.

170 lb blah blah blah !! Ali got almost knocked out off someone with less skillset than Tyson Fury. Truss seems to give any modern day fighter north of 150lbs to have a chance of beating Louis, yet Ali is invincible.

Conn used expert control of range - not space, range - which Jones has not exhibited to anything like the same degree to pick out the Louis circle and remain outwith it aside from on his own terms. How many punchers did Jones Jnr face ? Never mind one of the best punchers technically in the history ?, he has nothing like the mentality to pull of a plan as dagnerous as this, it's a massacre.

Cheers Rodders

Mayweather has strayed north of 150lbs so I wouldnt tempt TRUSSMAN.

I would pay any amount of money to watch Louis to go through Mayweather like a tornado mate.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:170 lb blah blah blah !! Ali got almost knocked out off someone with less skillset than Tyson Fury. Truss seems to give any modern day fighter north of 150lbs to have a chance of beating Louis, yet Ali is invincible.

Conn used expert control of range - not space, range - which Jones has not exhibited to anything like the same degree to pick out the Louis circle and remain outwith it aside from on his own terms. How many punchers did Jones Jnr face ? Never mind one of the best punchers technically in the history ?, he has nothing like the mentality to pull of a plan as dagnerous as this, it's a massacre.

Cheers Rodders

More hyperbole from the modern-hating brigade......

Conn was a great technician and Jones chaff..............Jones using angles like he did would never have bothered Louis.....Jones didn't have good footwork...

Tunney ko 1 Lewis..........................Fullmer ko 2 Hoppo.......

We get it !!

I keep reading by the oldie-Two.... that old time fighters were better technicians ..............

Gene Fullmer's trainer : "I kept saying to Gene If you are going to go swinging in at least try and keep one hand up"............

Billy Conn : I just used to back up..Make them follow me and punch straight, No round houses ...If you go straight you get there first".........

The sort of artistry that would make Andy warhol proud hey.........

Not that I'm suggesting there weren't good technicians but these were the exceptions to the rule........

The fact Fullmer and Conn were two of the best of their time and were great fighters says it all as to the calibre of most fighters back then.........

Time to take the rose tints off..............Burley, robbo types were the few exceptions to the rule.............

Cheers

Trussers...

When did I say Jones was chaff ? He isn't like Conn, you've got it in you head Billy ran like the wind he didn't. Conn had much more to his game; durability, decent clinching and spinning ability, and shorter punches in combination. Jones never done this, how many punchers did Roy face ? It's an absolute massacre , I'm sorry i see it that way.

Your using an a silly argument , I can say well Cooper almost knocked Ali unconscious then I'll give Marco Huck a chance.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:170 lb blah blah blah !! Ali got almost knocked out off someone with less skillset than Tyson Fury. Truss seems to give any modern day fighter north of 150lbs to have a chance of beating Louis, yet Ali is invincible.

Conn used expert control of range - not space, range - which Jones has not exhibited to anything like the same degree to pick out the Louis circle and remain outwith it aside from on his own terms. How many punchers did Jones Jnr face ? Never mind one of the best punchers technically in the history ?, he has nothing like the mentality to pull of a plan as dagnerous as this, it's a massacre.

Cheers Rodders

One of the best?.............Thee BEST.

I've seen Billy Conn.............Enough to know Haz complete dismissal of Jones jr is all to do with modern resentment...

Maybe you are more reasonable...........

Conn was great............but he weighed 170 !!!!!!!!!..........Can't tell me Jones wasn't everything Conn was and more........

I'm not suggesting he beats Louis .............But to bring Tarver and Johnson up is just PATHETIC.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I keep reading by the oldie-Two.... that old time fighters were better technicians ..............

Gene Fullmer's trainer : "I kept saying to Gene If you are going to go swinging in at least try and keep one hand up"............

Billy Conn : I just used to back up..Make them follow me and punch straight, No round houses ...If you go straight you get there first".........

The sort of artistry that would make Andy warhol proud hey.........

Not that I'm suggesting there weren't good technicians but these were the exceptions to the rule........

The fact Fullmer and Conn were two of the best of their time and were great fighters says it all as to the calibre of most fighters back then.........

Time to take the rose tints off..............Burley, robbo types were the few exceptions to the rule.............

Cheers

Trussers...

Never fails to keep in with the mods.

Strongback wrote:

Rodney wrote:170 lb blah blah blah !! Ali got almost knocked out off someone with less skillset than Tyson Fury. Truss seems to give any modern day fighter north of 150lbs to have a chance of beating Louis, yet Ali is invincible.

Conn used expert control of range - not space, range - which Jones has not exhibited to anything like the same degree to pick out the Louis circle and remain outwith it aside from on his own terms. How many punchers did Jones Jnr face ? Never mind one of the best punchers technically in the history ?, he has nothing like the mentality to pull of a plan as dagnerous as this, it's a massacre.

Cheers Rodders

One of the best?.............Thee BEST.

I'll listen to Rod...........You're a twerp..Now runalong...

"Mayweather never fought anybody and hasn't had a defining fight.......I have Louis and Ali at 6".........

Now that say's it all...Go away.

Why ?? You bring Marciano as Charles up every once in a while.

Listen I like Jones Jnr , but he couldn't pull this off, no detriment to him.

Cheers Rodders

I have Louis number 2 in my ATG heavy list..........

The fact I haven't said Jones beats Louis......Makes your statement I believe anybody from 150 up beats Louis.........A cheap shot.....

I just want a guy who is the best technician bar two others I've seen in my lifetime given more respect......Not his fault he was born when he was......

Marciano and Charles were the best fighters he fought !!!!!!!!!!!!......Never said he couldn't beat them only that he never beat anybody of such magnitude..

As you well know........

hoppo and Toney were the best fighters Jones fought.

You have an agenda admit it..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I've seen Billy Conn.............Enough to know Haz complete dismissal of Jones jr is all to do with modern resentment...

Maybe you are more reasonable...........

Conn was great............but he weighed 170 !!!!!!!!!..........Can't tell me Jones wasn't everything Conn was and more........

I'm not suggesting he beats Louis .............But to bring Tarver and Johnson up  is just PATHETIC.........

My dismisal of Jones is nothing to do with him being a "modern" fighter. It has everything to do with the fact he was a small light heavyweight, who was knocked out by two other light heavyweights. A light heavyweight would require a granite chin to survive Louis.

Hazzy-baby

1. You write only half a Mayweather article slating him by Al bernstein.........Scottrf I think pointed out you missed the other half praising him........

2. You write a piece on Manny .....Hinting at PED use with Ariza..........

3. You dismiss Jones like turd against Louis.....Using a sliding Jones vs Tarver and Johnson to BACK up your point..

4. You are the only one bar two Strangeway inmates that has Hagler over Mayweather..

5. You think the oldtimers were more technically proficient than modern day fighters...

6. You have Johnson top 10 in your p4p list........dismissing Mayweather as a ducker....

7. Wlad and Vitali are just useless lumps......

I REST MY CASE HAZ.....................

Take that chip off your shoulder kiddo...........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hazzy-baby

1. You write only half a Mayweather article slating him by Al bernstein.........Scottrf I think pointed out you missed the other half praising him........

2. You write a piece on Manny .....Hinting at PED use with Ariza..........

3. You dismiss Jones like turd against Louis.....Using a sliding Jones vs Tarver and Johnson to BACK up your point..

4. You are the only one bar two Strangeway inmates that has Hagler over Mayweather..

5. You think the oldtimers were more technically proficient than modern day fighters in lists....

6. You have Johnson top 10 in your p4p list........dismissing Mayweather as a ducker....

7. Wlad and Vitali are just useless lumps......

I REST MY CASE HAZ.....................

Take that chip off your shoulder kiddo...........

 
1. As I've pointed out numerous times, I highlighted an article written by Kelsey McCarson. Al Bernstein did not slate Mayweather in that article.
 
2. And?
 
3. Everyone else has agreed that Louis would have too much firepower for Jones.
 
4. As I've stated previously, there are good judges, such as Boxing News editor Tris Dixon, who rate Hagler over Mayweather (along with every expert/historian listing I've ever come across).
 
5. I feel olden day fighters were better schooled than modern fighters as they fought more; more fights, more often.
 
6. I no longer have Johnson in my top ten (as I've explained umpteen times). Little did I realise that a throwaway post written in two seconds while at work would be held up as some fugazi stick to beat me with. Mayweather, though, has avoided his toughest fights, for the record.
 
7. They are. Vitali more useful than Wladimir. I was, though, one of the few polled to rate Holyfield in my top ten heavyweights (all time).
 
Everyone isn't agenda driven because they disagree that fighters in colour with flashy shorts are the bestest fighters ever (just look at their muscles!).

Anyway moving on.........

Liston vs Ali should probably be considered.............I guess......

Seemed a little half hearted after a couple of rounds from the bear..........

Such a great fighter quitting and going down so easily is very disappointing...Seemed to accept his fate a little easily.

Maybe I'm a little harsh on Willard too.............Wouldn't put it past fighters back then to be using substances to make themselves punch harder......

Willard seemed to think so........Maybe he had a point.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Anyway moving on.........

Liston vs Ali should probably be considered.............I guess......

Seemed a little half hearted after a couple of rounds from the bear..........

Such a great fighter quitting and going down so easily is very disappointing...Seemed to accept his fate a little easily.

Maybe I'm a little harsh on Willard too.............Wouldn't put it past fighters back then to be using substances to make themselves punch harder......

Willard seemed to think so........Maybe he had a point.

Douglas vs Holyfield is your number one. Oops, there I go again. That was in colour wasn't it?

Douglas - Holy is my number 1 ???..........

I don't get you..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Douglas - Holy is my number 1 ???..........

I don't get you..

That was the worst performance by a defending champion. Douglas quit as soon as his bra strap snapped.

Oh you were implying that I was neglecting modern fights in my list to make oldtimers look bad...

My top 2 are in color Mate............geez !!

Seldon's was worse than Douglas.............Douglas did at least land a decent right hand in the third..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oh you were implying that I was neglecting modern fights in my list to make oldtimers look bad...

My top 2 are in color Mate............geez !!

Seldon's was worse than Douglas.............Douglas did at least land a decent right hand in the third..

Seldon was an alphabet titlist -- Douglas was actually THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD.

...........Holmes was an alphabet titlist...

Even so patterson-Liston would be number 1............

Na. Patterson took his lumps. Douglas looked for a soft spot to lie down.

Patterson was scared stiff Mate........

Just stop it..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Patterson was scared stiff Mate........

Just stop it..

Agreed, it's a bit like suggesting Bruno had guts for getting in the ring with Mike the second time around when you could see that all Frank wanted to do was get the damned thing over with.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Strongback wrote:

Rodney wrote:170 lb blah blah blah !! Ali got almost knocked out off someone with less skillset than Tyson Fury. Truss seems to give any modern day fighter north of 150lbs to have a chance of beating Louis, yet Ali is invincible.

Conn used expert control of range - not space, range - which Jones has not exhibited to anything like the same degree to pick out the Louis circle and remain outwith it aside from on his own terms. How many punchers did Jones Jnr face ? Never mind one of the best punchers technically in the history ?, he has nothing like the mentality to pull of a plan as dagnerous as this, it's a massacre.

Cheers Rodders

One of the best?.............Thee BEST.

I'll listen to Rod...........You're a twerp..Now runalong...

"Mayweather never fought anybody and hasn't had a defining fight.......I have Louis and Ali at 6".........

Now that say's it all...Go away.

Louis is the greatest puncher of all time technically, combinations, finishing etc etc... You seem to have a problem with me stating the obvious.


Floyd Mayweather does not fight the best. That's a fact deal with it.


Louis is an ATG P4P Top 10 on just about any list you can find published in the MODERN era. He's not on your list and that's fine but you are very much going against the consensus of the most knowledgeable boxing peoplefrom the last 70 odd years. In other words you're an ODDBALL.


As to the twerp comment...............well I never have to get out of first gear to find massive holes in your arguments.

Don't agree. Patterson came to fight, he was just overpowered by Liston at his best. Douglas didn't train, took a shot and gave up.

Patterson was like a man going to his execution. As much as I respect the man, he took a disguise with him knowing full well he was going to be beaten and humiliated and whilst it takes a rare kind of courage to do that (Audley's been doing it for years) it was still a poor showing. There's being beaten and going out on your shield. I'm just not sure Patterson's defence falls into that last catagory

Patterson did brick it, but he'd get knocked down and always tried to get up... certainly the liston fight is worth its place in the list though.

Douglas came in on a diet of hamburgers and rolled over. Showed no respect for the belt, i guess he'd had his moment in the sun. Given his heroics against tyson, he would certainly win the 'from best to worst' performance by a heavy champion... perhaps any champion for that matter. Gotta love him though, for the tyson performance.