Orange Cards

by FootballLight Mon 20 Jan 2014, 5:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Not a bad idea personally. It's about time we saw football use the technology to develop a little bit more, much more useful to the game. It would help out so much. Read more on the BBC.

by socal1976 Fri 21 Feb 2014, 2:17 am

Duty281 wrote:Scenario time!

It's the tenth minute of the World Cup quarter-final between England and Brazil. Sturridge bursts through on goal, with one touch taking him clear of the defence. From behind, David Luiz slides and gets a boot in the vague direction of the ball.. but getting none of it and cleaning out the striker in the process.

Now whilst the offence took place outside of the box, it was a professional foul as Sturridge had a clear goal-scoring opportunity with only the keeper to beat and yards of space. Under the old rules for denying this clear chance, a red card would have followed.

However, the new "sin-bin" rule has been put in place. Luiz protests his innocence to referee by claiming that he had intent to play the ball - difficult to prove otherwise, really. The referee, under this new law, agrees and brandishes a orange card - Luiz goes to the bin for fifteen minutes.

England have a free-kick, but it's nowhere near as clear cut a chance as they did have a few minutes ago. It comes to nothing.

Following fifteen minutes, a great deal of which was spent by the Brazil team taking an age over throw-ins and such like, the team in yellow are restored to a full eleven with the score remaining nil nil.

England are incensed by the injustice of it all. A late Rooney chance in extra-time smashes off the crossbar...not enough, and the tie goes to penalties. Luiz slots the winning kick. England out. It's the same old story.

Under the old rules, maybe, just maybe, England would have had a sense of justice. Maybe the powers that be should have left well alone?

England playing Brazil in a world cup final and outplaying them only to lose because of the evil hypothetical sin-bin, talk about an unbelievable and unrealistic scenario. Any number of terrible decisions take place today as well, no system is perfect you can create a nightmare scenario to criticize any idea. Please, a litany of horrors that has little chance of ever happening. It isn't like there are unjust decisions in football right now under the current system or anything. The fact is you will always have a debate one way or the other and tough breaks under any system.

The sin bin idea has one good benefit in that it actually gives the officials more discretion and more tools to regulate the match. As opposed to just getting a warning (yellow card),which nothing really happens and sending someone off for the whole match, which can be quite harsh and irrevocable this provides a third intermediate option. This intermediate option has the benefit of not completely altering the complexion of the match for a single foul. I find watching a match where one side has a man advantage the whole time, when two relatively equal strength teams play to be very boring and it takes away from the competitive nature of the match.

by socal1976 Fri 21 Feb 2014, 2:22 am

Duty281 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Well the argument can be made HH that between a yellow card and red card maybe there should be a middle alternative. With a yellow card especially late in the match no real punishment occurs and then with a red card you have basically a drastic game changing punishment with no middle ground. I think Szcz foul was a 50-50 redcard, I don't see how every foul by a keeper has to automatically be a red card. I think there maybe a way to punish the conduct but to provide an option other than a straight sending off, which beyond damaging the team in question really punishes innocent neutrals who see a once competitive contest turned to a predictable contest. One side packs the bus and the other team just plays the ball around looking for the decisive goal.

If it was late in the match, wouldn't a sin-bin have near-enough the same effect as a red?

Yes but basically we are talking about a variety of situations. Rarely does a redcard in the match make for an intriguing contest and it off ends that contest. Even a yellow card early in the match doesn't really immediately punish a player for what has been deemed a harsh or cynical foul. The only other alternative is to basically send the player off. There were two mouth watering ties from a neutral's perspective that were basically turned into duds. And both sending offs were within the rules that isn't really my beef. Maybe a middle ground between just a warning and sending off would be a good idea to try.

Wouldn't a sin bin, in replacement of a yellow card early on in the example you mentioned, just turn the game into a time-wasting, men-behind-the-ball exercise for ten or fifteen minutes from the defending side, whilst the attacking team tried to probe their way through, thusly making the situation you're trying to avoid a far more common occurence?

After all, red cards are rare, and sin-bins would be more common.

It is better than having no option between a straight sending off and a warning that basically amounts to little. We might get interesting matchups as well. For example two quick fouls we could see some 11 on 9 for a few minutes or 10 on 10 football for a short span. I think it is an interesting idea worth testing out to see how it works. Maybe in a few friendly matches early in the season.

Why would 11 v 9 be interesting? You'd have two deep banks of four, winding down the clock whenever they got the oppourtunity, whilst never venturing much beyond their penalty area, and booting the ball away at every opportunity.

Such an idea could maybe be tested in lower league football. I believe one time there was an experimental change to the ruling, where players could not be offside from free-kicks, thus encouraging attacking play. It was trialled in the Conference, I think, and subsequently binned.

I think it would be interesting to see 10 on 10 or 11 on 9 for short spells because it brings in a whole different level of tactical complexity to the game. Teams would have to quickly change on the fly and adjust their tactics and formation to a more fluid situation. 11 on 9 for a short spell could be interesting in that if the team with 9 could somehow fight it off it might give them a burst of confidence when returning to full strength. Or the full strength side could score one or two goals quickly in a short spell and end the match. Instead of what we saw in the City and Arsenal match where the full strength team just played the ball from side to side patiently till an opportunity presented itself. If a team knows its advantage will end shortly they might go for broke more and commit players forward when they are on the advantage.

by Duty281 Fri 21 Feb 2014, 10:08 am

Excuse me Socal, before we go any further, the World Wide Web was invented by a Brit.

And why's it an unrealistic scenario? Perfectly plausible. Plus, football is not here for your entertainment, not anymore, not really. People's careers and lives are at stake; you can't just change the rules to make it more interesting.

And why are 11 on 10 games automatically boring? They might be in two-legged contests, where a team madly wants to keep the score down after a sending off in the first leg, but this doesn't occur in many one-off games.

by CFCNick Fri 21 Feb 2014, 11:20 am

Duty281 wrote:Excuse me Socal, before we go any further, the World Wide Web was invented by a Brit.

And why's it an unrealistic scenario? Perfectly plausible. Plus, football is not here for your entertainment, not anymore, not really. People's careers and lives are at stake; you can't just change the rules to make it more interesting.

And why are 11 on 10 games automatically boring? They might be in two-legged contests, where a team madly wants to keep the score down after a sending off in the first leg, but this doesn't occur in many one-off games.

Why not? The fact peoples careers are at stake doesn't mean you should let a sport become stale. Not that I'm saying football has become stale. But there is a lot it can learn and even adopt from other sports.

Whilst I agree with Socal on the idea of the sin bin, or penalty box as I prefer to call it, football is too big for it. Not big as in following, big as in team size and playing surface size. The sin bin makes some rugby games even slower than they can already be. Having a system of power plays/penalty killing works in sports like hockey with smaller teams or in smaller playing surfaces. This idea is perfect for 5, 6 or 7-a-side. I'm more in favour for it than against it but cannot see it ever being as effective as it is in hockey for a game played on a 115 x 75 yard field with 22 men rather than 12 men on a 66 x 28 yard rink. Therefore it'd be a waste of time trying to adapt it.

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 21 Feb 2014, 5:55 pm

socal1976 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:All a bit too American if you ask me.

That is pretty silly logic; is the internet, smartphones, and airplanes too American for you as well? If an idea is good it doesn't really matter whether it is American or Swahili it really doesn't matter. And by the way the last person I heard of pushing this was Platini, if I remember correctly. Maybe it is too french for you, Americans hardly care about soccer as we call it.

In the context of sport you thick sod.

You are aware that none of the things you mentioned are American right? They're either British or Japanese.

by socal1976 Sat 22 Feb 2014, 1:11 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:All a bit too American if you ask me.

That is pretty silly logic; is the internet, smartphones, and airplanes too American for you as well? If an idea is good it doesn't really matter whether it is American or Swahili it really doesn't matter. And by the way the last person I heard of pushing this was Platini, if I remember correctly. Maybe it is too french for you, Americans hardly care about soccer as we call it.
In the context of sport you thick sod.

You are aware that none of the things you mentioned are American right? They're either British or Japanese.

So the wright brothers were japanese and british? And as usual you miss the point, an idea being good has nothing to do with the nationality of who came up with it. By the way no American sport has a sin bin or power play. Not baseball, American football, or basketball; so how is the idea even classified as an American type of idea, it is an idea with no nationality. Hockey is not really an American sport we care less about Hockey in most of the country than we do about football/soccer. In fact it is more a British idea than an American one because your two favorite team sports (ie rugby and football) both have the concept of a team playing shorthanded.

by socal1976 Sat 22 Feb 2014, 4:08 am

CFCNick wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Excuse me Socal, before we go any further, the World Wide Web was invented by a Brit.

And why's it an unrealistic scenario? Perfectly plausible. Plus, football is not here for your entertainment, not anymore, not really. People's careers and lives are at stake; you can't just change the rules to make it more interesting.

And why are 11 on 10 games automatically boring? They might be in two-legged contests, where a team madly wants to keep the score down after a sending off in the first leg, but this doesn't occur in many one-off games.

Why not? The fact peoples careers are at stake doesn't mean you should let a sport become stale. Not that I'm saying football has become stale. But there is a lot it can learn and even adopt from other sports.

Whilst I agree with Socal on the idea of the sin bin, or penalty box as I prefer to call it, football is too big for it. Not big as in following, big as in team size and playing surface size. The sin bin makes some rugby games even slower than they can already be. Having a system of power plays/penalty killing works in sports like hockey with smaller teams or in smaller playing surfaces. This idea is perfect for 5, 6 or 7-a-side. I'm more in favour for it than against it but cannot see it ever being as effective as it is in hockey for a game played on a 115 x 75 yard field with 22 men rather than 12 men on a 66 x 28 yard rink. Therefore it'd be a waste of time trying to adapt it.

Interesting points Nick, I agree that it wouldn't result in as big an advantage or change in the game as in hockey where you are dealing on 5-4 or 5 on 3 situation. But I do believe it would bring in some added tactical complexity and work for the managers in how they would shift around a team to defend or attack knowing that they won't have the added man advantage for long.

The real reason for the sin bin, at least in favor of it is that it gives a middle ground position between a red card and just a warning. It gives the ref one more tool to more effectively and fairly regulate a match. Instead of just two options on a foul he has three. In some instances red cards are too harsh and just a yellow and a verbal warning does not go far enough. This addresses the dichotomy in football where a yellow is really not much of a penalty at all (at least not immediately) and the red card is basically a very harsh penalty. I think it might be a good thing to test out and see if the fans like it. Football is supposed to be entertainment after all. It is a great product already but whose to say it can't be made better.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 22 Feb 2014, 11:40 am

socal1976 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
socal1976 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:All a bit too American if you ask me.

That is pretty silly logic; is the internet, smartphones, and airplanes too American for you as well? If an idea is good it doesn't really matter whether it is American or Swahili it really doesn't matter. And by the way the last person I heard of pushing this was Platini, if I remember correctly. Maybe it is too french for you, Americans hardly care about soccer as we call it.
In the context of sport you thick sod.

You are aware that none of the things you mentioned are American right? They're either British or Japanese.

So the wright brothers were japanese and british? And as usual you miss the point, an idea being good has nothing to do with the nationality of who came up with it. By the way no American sport has a sin bin or power play. Not baseball, American football, or basketball; so how is the idea even classified as an American type of idea, it is an idea with no nationality. Hockey is not really an American sport we care less about Hockey in most of the country than we do about football/soccer. In fact it is more a British idea than an American one because your two favorite team sports (ie rugby and football) both have the concept of a team playing shorthanded.

In denial after Canada beat you twice then, I know as well as you that you take Ice Hockey very very seriously.

The Wright brothers didn't come up with the concept of aeronautics it was Sir George Cayley an Englishmen.

by Duty281 Sat 22 Feb 2014, 11:46 am

HH - And that's before we even get into the whole idea of Britain founding America! Whistle

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 22 Feb 2014, 11:52 am

Very few if any innovations began in America, most are from Britain, China, Persia, Italy, Greece, Egypt or even France.

by Bull Sat 22 Feb 2014, 11:59 am

This argument is just silly.

There is no "Oh your country this and my country does that crap or this is a British idea/american idea."

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 22 Feb 2014, 12:11 pm

Do you do anything but moan Bull?

by CFCNick Sat 22 Feb 2014, 12:15 pm

Duty281 wrote:HH - And that's before we even get into the whole idea of Britain founding America!

Which we didn't. We invaded America and after some time they kicked us out. There was already white people from mainland Europe in America before we Brits ever came along.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 22 Feb 2014, 12:17 pm

It was the British lot who kicked the British out Nick not the French or Spanish.

by Duty281 Sat 22 Feb 2014, 12:41 pm

CFCNick wrote:
Duty281 wrote:HH - And that's before we even get into the whole idea of Britain founding America!

Which we didn't. We invaded America and after some time they kicked us out. There was already white people from mainland Europe in America before we Brits ever came along.

Britain colonised large parts of America. Some other Brits rebelled. The British government, after winning most of the battles during the War of Independence, decided that America wasn't worth keeping in comparison to Canada or the Caribbean; both were regarded as much more important.

The end. Until the war of 1812, when Britain burned down the White House.

All friends now. The end.

by CFCNick Sat 22 Feb 2014, 1:56 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It was the British lot who kicked the British out Nick not the French or Spanish.

I didn't say the French or Spanish kicked us out. I simply said there was already generations of other white people in America diluted bloodlines with others. That's what Americans are. All the Europeans mixed together.

The British lot fighting for independence were clawed as American because they'd already defected from Britain. They were supported by the French and Spanish.

by socal1976 Sun 23 Feb 2014, 3:54 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Very few if any innovations began in America, most are from Britain, China, Persia, Italy, Greece, Egypt or even France.

As a persian/Iranian living in southern california your welcome. Actually this statement is really wrong most modern innovations since the industrial revolution have been mainly in the states, followed by the Europeans. Unless you consider the abacus the first computer or somehow take airplanes away from the Wright brothers. Britain has had more than its fair share. By the way the basis of the internet was a defense department program in the late 60s, and smartphones were first released by IBM in the early 90s the Japanese popularized it and made it widespread first. But again the forest from the trees the sin bin idea is certainly not American, and as Bull says this was never supposed to be about whose country is better etc. The point is the sin bin idea is not American, and who cares what a good ideas nationality is anyway. As for Hockey, just don't care and really never have. I will agree some of my countrymen stateside got all orgasmic over the 1980 victory over the Soviets, but that was due mainly to the political context and Soviet domination of the sport. It is actually a sport that gets very low TV ratings in the states as a pro sport.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 23 Feb 2014, 7:48 am

Sorry Socal but you're just wrong there.

You obviously don't know the difference between an innovator and a developer. The innovation of the plane and the internet started in England, there were planes long before the Wright brothers.

As for modern innovations, there's a bloody good reason why the industrial revolution started in Britain because we're the country who who invented everything.

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