Pod versus flood.

First topic message reminder :

I've watched the France game snatching try about a dozen times now because at the time I couldn't figure out how on earth it happened.

But check the switch to a three pod forward system when szarzewski comes on. From then France rinse and repeat a simple plan. Close left flank pod, mid field pod, right flank pod, mid field, ...

It looked laboured, and static and painfully pedestrian. But it seems that might've been the plan.

England all the time flooding each breakdown. Their entire pack traversing the field whilst France stay in three distinct pods.

Then two crucial things happen, fofana gets the first French offload of the half away, meaning the pace to the right pod is quicker, England's marauding breakdown flood is slow to arrive and Nyanga runs through brown. Then with quick ball France go full left flank. As the pass goes through the midfield again half of England's pack is still headed towards the right hand pod. The most lateral defender is less than half way across the pitch. They look exhausted. The try is already conceded at that point.

This is EXACTLY  the same way that England conceded against NZ in the AIs.

If England persist with their breakdown flood they need to be able to guarantee they can strangle the ruck for 80 minutes, because if quick ball arrives then they are horribly exposed.  Looks like a patient team will back themselves as the game draws to an end as England's increased self imposed workload takes its toll.

Also check how much ground mike brown covers in that 4 minute spell. Almost 5 laps of the pitch. Exhausting stuff.

As the ball arrives at szarzewski he has moved about 10 paces from where he was 5 phases ago. The England pack have trapsed back and forth twice. Little wonder he had the edge in his legs.

GE - are you really quoting Bob Dwyer?

whatever kudos you got from the interesting opening post just evaporated after wheeling out Bob Dwyer as your authority.

regarding Dwyer's comments, i agree with Warren Gatland...""I think it is a sad indictment on the media world that they roll out 72-year old Bob Dwyer," he said. "I think he deserves more respect than that for what he has achieved in the game."

The second of the pictures shows the true story. look at the French front row - all three are looking to wheel or bore in on Cole, hence Mako's position. It is very hard for a loosehead to bore as this weakens the scrum as he has to split away from the hooker and 2nd rows to angle in, its much easier for the TH to bore in and attack the hooker. anyone who's played front row at whatever level will know this.

quinsforever wrote:GE - are you really quoting Bob Dwyer?

whatever kudos you got from the interesting opening post just evaporated after wheeling out Bob Dwyer as your authority.

regarding Dwyer's comments, i agree with Warren Gatland...""I think it is a sad indictment on the media world that they roll out 72-year old Bob Dwyer," he said. "I think he deserves more respect than that for what he has achieved in the game."

This coming from Gatland who's just whinged about the refereeing of the scrum in his latest match?

Slow and Sedate wrote:The second of the pictures shows the true story.  look at the French front row - all three are looking to wheel or bore in on Cole, hence Mako's position.  It is very hard for a loosehead to bore as this weakens the scrum as he has to split away from the hooker and 2nd rows to angle in, its much easier for the TH to bore in and attack the hooker.  anyone who's played front row at whatever level will know this.

The second scrum France are dead straight. Vunipola bores in at almost 90 degrees. He pushes the French tight head across the scrum. Vunipola sticks his foot out first, it's completely obvious. The English flanker is split from the scrum and England disolve. France clear away from a rock solid basis.

Never the less, England should have been penalised.

France had no interest in conceding a penalty as they clearly just wanted the ball out of play, to suggest they'd concede a penalty and keep England in it is ludicrous, even for the French.

Ok I read it again. Sorry, I thought it was another Gatland Lions 'drop' thread: BOD vs Flood.

we need a new icon for someone who has missed the deliberate irony. maybe a double picard

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Slow and Sedate wrote:The second of the pictures shows the true story.  look at the French front row - all three are looking to wheel or bore in on Cole, hence Mako's position.  It is very hard for a loosehead to bore as this weakens the scrum as he has to split away from the hooker and 2nd rows to angle in, its much easier for the TH to bore in and attack the hooker.  anyone who's played front row at whatever level will know this.

The second scrum France are dead straight. Vunipola bores in at almost 90 degrees. He pushes the French tight head across the scrum. Vunipola sticks his foot out first, it's completely obvious. The English flanker is split from the scrum and England disolve. France clear away from a rock solid basis.

Never the less, England should have been penalised.

France had no interest in conceding a penalty as they clearly just wanted the ball out of play, to suggest they'd concede a penalty and keep England in it is ludicrous, even for the French.

If you look at the picture you provided and the white line behind the England scrum you will see that France are driving at an angle as shown by the black line which is away from Mako, whose leg has to go out to balance himself.  Bearing in mind that the laws state that the scrum has to be set straight and up/down the pitch and they must drive straight, the French should have been penalised according to the laws.  However, if the refs penalised illegalities with every scrum it would be a bloody boring game to watch.

Answer this question: who's at the biggest angle? The French front row? Or vunipola?

Yep, it's vunipola. With him at that angle, it's impossible for the French to drive straight. The forward force applied by the TH and Hooker will create a resultant vector across the scrum by the force applied by vunipola.

Like a momentum forward pass, it's just simple physics.

Whilst Vunipola is a massive guy, I doubt that he has the power to drive in the direction of say 1 o'clock and force the French to drive at an angle of 5 o'clock. Look at the angle of their tighthead compared to Youngs & Cole who have remained comparatively straight.

Mako's angle would be better used to wheel than to bore in, which would turn the French front row to 7 o'clock. I don't disagree that he and other props use angles to gain advantage, but looseheads boring in does not help their scrum whereas a tighthead boring in is intended to split the hooker from loosehead.

Basic physics again. The perpendicular lines of force are indepedent. Vunipola is brazenly boring in at atleast a 45% angle. The French front row is slightly skewed from his point of incidence.

There is no way they could drag him around to such an angle, if he was being pulled by the TH his legs would not be at that angle. He needs to stay straight. They would have to be operating on a fulcrum at his waist to force him into that position.

Watch the video, he steps out and bores in. Cheating and illegal plain and simple.

He will be penalised fiercely for it once his reputation for it is learned by referees on the circuit.

Then it will be the end of his career.

i would stick to open play analysis

i remember you being in massive denial at the analysis provided by the roar of the eng v ab scrum

i would be afraid of vunipola too, as he is only going to get better and stronger. but i dont think you're likely to impact the jury.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Basic physics again. The perpendicular lines of force are indepedent. Vunipola is brazenly boring in at atleast a 45% angle. The French front row is slightly skewed from his point of incidence.

There is no way they could drag him around to such an angle, if he was being pulled by the TH his legs would not be at that angle. He needs to stay straight. They would have to be operating on a fulcrum at his waist to force him into that position.

Watch the video, he steps out and bores in. Cheating and illegal plain and simple.

He will be penalised fiercely for it once his reputation for it is learned by referees on the circuit.

Then it will be the end of his career.

hi glorious

hope you are enjoying the tube strike

have you ever played prop?

Assuming scrum is right field?

Vuni is doing 2 things but he is not boring in.

He is trying to prevent France driving the scrum, if they start to and he is unbound their scrum will just wheel on their TH axis

He is also, IMO, rolling off so that the TH drives into the gap and brings the French front row down.

I agree it is poor reffing and should have been a Fr pen but hard for ref to see unless, as we are, he is on the roof

Easy for the ref to see. Whatever he's doing, he's not driving straight and that's enough to penalise.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2013/11/06/wallabies-scrum-what-was-the-referee-thinking/

bearing in mind this is an aussie website

We've seen that already thanks.

Also, I disagree with several of the "experts" bizarrely apologist findings. Essentially whenever vunipola is to blame he says "you get that sort of thing" ignores it and then blames an Australian for a lesser technical infringement.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Easy for the ref to see. Whatever he's doing, he's not driving straight and that's enough to penalise.

No it isn't unless he has an overhead view like your pictures, that is the point and the front row knows the ref needs to now touch the 9

Hear you are off on hols GE…….off to Sochi to be the NZ Team mascot?

It's easy for the ref to see.

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's easy for the ref to see.

how, explain.

ref stands off to deal with 9. If it was so easy to see why did you use an overhead pic to illustrate your point.

You also haven't indicated that you have ever played front row and if you haven't you have no idea whatsoever of what you are being so authoritative about.

the fact is loose heads often leave a gap for the th to drop into, and most of the time you won't see it at eye level.

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's easy for the ref to see.

how, explain.

ref stands off to deal with 9. If it was so easy to see why did you use an overhead pic to illustrate your point.

You also haven't indicated that you have ever played front row and if you haven't you have no idea whatsoever of what you are being so authoritative about.

the fact is loose heads often leave a gap for the th to drop into, and most of the time you won't see it at eye level.

Dude,
Just take another look at the pictures.