Wales : poor conditioning ?

Wales looked lacklustre in week one and took a shellacking in week two.

Good players don't become poor players overnight and the efforts so far smack of "lions hangover". This isn't excuse making, merely reasoning. History bares out that following lions duty, the constituent nations suffer. Given that so many welsh players composed the lions, then it makes sense that this effect might be more localised this year.

But what is post-lions syndrome?

Is it a mental effect? Can players simply not find the motivation to train and/or play to their potential?

Is it physical exhaustion? Have they played too much rugby? Is the mind willing but the body unable?

Have players rested on laurels? Lacked pre-season training commitment and now suffer the consequences?

Has the exposure of key English and Irish players to welsh coaching and strategy given them a leap on welsh tactics?  Has Gatland stagnated allowing welsh play to be too predictable? Is Gatland merely exhausted?

These are important questions because the answers might give insight to how well Wales will fare in the remaining contest.

A week off will undoubtedly give them time to recoup mentally, but if the players are merely poorly conditioned then that period of time is too short to remedy the problems, and exhaustive training now will merely make the problem worse.

I suspect that now is time for Gatland to rip up his play book and start fresh, rotate the squad and use the tournament as a trail for fringe candidates. Welsh pride will say otherwise, and if Gatland is burned out then clear thought might not be possible. Maybe just nailing the colours to the mast and plowing through the storm is the best way - not panic and trusting the systems already in place. Tough call.

My gut feeling says Wales have probably one good performance left in them. Will it come against France? Or England? Or will they put one of the minnows to the sword in a pointless display of retribution.

Challenging times for a coach, but if anyone has it in them to overcome this crisis then it's Gatland. The shrewd kiwi has bounced back from disappointment before : disastrous AIs and World Cup disappointment didn't stop him taking the lions series and I'm intrigued to see (read) how he will tackle this one.

I do not really believe that Wales are much worst than last year where they had a bad start, some average wins and a great win against England. the same scenario might be repeated this year. I just hope it is against England once again although I make them clear favourites in a fortnight. Depth is the issue for them although they had a good habit of finding promising new players time and time again but that means their form can be erratic at times.
Similarly I do not think that France are much better than last year (they are just luckier) or England worst. The only difference this year seems to be Ireland delivering and Scotland going backwards.

Whocares, sounds like Wales are heading for a devalued fourth place then   

It wasn't my intention to bring up the "D" word. More of an analysis of what is wrong in the welsh camp. My feeling is after a couple of weeks off to stew, Wales will come out firing and eventually wear France down. I think they've got too much out wide for France - the area where England struggled. It'll be a more open game, and with a bit of a point to prove up front (where Gatland should make no changes) the contest for the ball will be largely even, if a bit penalty strewn.

Did Wales do the cryogenic pre-conditioning in Spala this year?

There's normally an article about it on the Beeb but I don't remember seeing it this time around.

They bought there own freezers which seems to have somewhat devalued the effects

Oh dear, the mockers are out in force. Reminds me of last year...

GloriousEmpire wrote:Oh dear, the mockers are out in force. Reminds me of last year...

Mine was a serious question. Still it is one of your threads

Most of french players (toulouse ones) will probably be playing for their club this weekend. Without a fully fit nyanga and picamoles, even a one legged warbutton will dominate the breakdown. Cant see past a welsh win unfortunately but stranger things have happened.

GE you didnt really think this article through. Ireland had a lot of players on the Lions tour too and had more injuries as a result than any other Lions nation. The Lions tour was 7 months ago. It is absolutly irrelevant. It isnt possible to be tired because of something that happened almost a year ago. Its pure nonsense.

The serious part of the answer is that they have their (not there) own facility now.

GunsGerms wrote:GE you didnt really think this article through. Ireland had a lot of players on the Lions tour too and had more injuries as a result than any other Lions nation. The Lions tour was 7 months ago. It is absolutly irrelevant. It isnt possible to be tired because of something that happened almost a year ago. Its pure nonsense.

I dunno BOD looked pretty fresh

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:GE you didnt really think this article through. Ireland had a lot of players on the Lions tour too and had more injuries as a result than any other Lions nation. The Lions tour was 7 months ago. It is absolutly irrelevant. It isnt possible to be tired because of something that happened almost a year ago. Its pure nonsense.

I dunno BOD looked pretty fresh

Thats pretty impressive given that he played four matches on the Lions tour which is the same amount as Alex Cuthbert, Jamie Roberts, Sam Warburton and one less than Mike Philips. He also played more matches than Gethin Jenkins, Scott Williams, Andrew Coombs, Rhys Priestland, Jake Ball and Liam Williams.

If old man BOD wasnt tired why were the Welsh? The answer is they werent they just didnt play well or were out played.

GunsGerms wrote:GE you didnt really think this article through. Ireland had a lot of players on the Lions tour too and had more injuries as a result than any other Lions nation. The Lions tour was 7 months ago. It is absolutly irrelevant. It isnt possible to be tired because of something that happened almost a year ago. Its pure nonsense.

I'm only going by what SCW says. He said England in 2004 were still tired from 2003 and that's why their SH tour was so disasterous. Is he not correct?

England had already done quite poor in the 6 nations in 2004 before any tour. They lost at home to Ireland for example for the first time in a decade or so and had gone from slam in '03 and world champions to third in the 6 nations. The rot had already set in GE. Losing talisman Martin Johnson and other key players to retirement was the biggest factor.

Johnny Sexton has complained in an interview that he was playing too many games for Racing this season, he seemed to have an alright game on Saturday...

Roberts, Jenkins and Warburton haven't played much this season, so match fitness is probably more of a valid excuse for them rather than fatigue. Our best performers AWJ, Faletau and Hibbard have all played their fair share this season since the Lions.

  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-26118744

Time to drop the Tool I think.

This Lions fatigue thing is crud.  Always has been in my view.  

The Lions - the majority of them Welsh - so far so good.  We all agree on that one.

The Lions - possibly about four games in total that would be classed as anything approaching test level rugby played during the tour.  Four is pushing it by the way.

The Lions - do the other players from other countries stand around all week smoking and playing cards as the Welsh contingent train?

The Lions - the Welsh contingent, most if not all of them, had a more relaxing lead in to the Lions tour preparations than many of the players from Ireland and England.  Players from Ireland and England were playing crucial League and European games right up until the final whistle of the season.  Is that playing hard rugby and potentially being fatigued?

The Lions - wasn't the only tour of the Summer - other nations had their own mini tours and players still played, including French players.  Ireland had effectively three senior selections playing in that Summer - the guys with the Lions, the American tour and another team put out to help IRB spread the good news to the little folk (a mini tour in Georgia with a South African selection)

Meanwhile the French look on course to retain their record of winning every post Lions 6 nations.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Meanwhile the French look on course to retain their record of winning every post Lions 6 nations.

Thought they were quite poor against England. They have an awful coach, very disorganised, very low on detail and look lost after a few phases. Agreed, they probably will win the 6 nations.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Meanwhile the French look on course to retain their record of winning every post Lions 6 nations.

I look on it as the French doing their usual and stoking up the engine pre WC.  France have a reasonable record at WC.  It's obviously a priority for them.. the WC happens every four year, just like Lions.

Post Lions v Pre WC................... hmmm?????

It's an insult to France, considering their record in the 6N (even outside the famous post Lions legend years) to suggest they need a Lions tour to make inroads on the competiton.  Nah...they're too good to need that trick.

SecretFly wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Meanwhile the French look on course to retain their record of winning every post Lions 6 nations.

I look on it as the French doing their usual and stoking up the engine pre WC.  France have a reasonable record at WC.  It's obviously a priority for them.. the WC happens every four year, just like Lions.

Post Lions v Pre WC................... hmmm?????

It's an insult to France, considering their record in the 6N (even outside the famous post Lions legend years) to suggest they need a Lions tour to make inroads on the competiton.  Nah...they're too good to need that trick.

Maybe thats Frances problem, they stop trying the 6 nations before a world cup?

Are you suggesting that this hastily assembled side has perfectly timed its peak for 18 months prior to aa world cup as some kind of masterplan to win that?

Or will you accet that many players find it hard to maintain their peak performance without a summer break?p

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Meanwhile the French look on course to retain their record of winning every post Lions 6 nations.

Thought they were quite poor against England. They have an awful coach, very disorganised, very low on detail and look lost after a few phases. Agreed, they probably will win the 6 nations.

I thought so too Guns.  Right up until that second half ruthless dissection of Italy after half time.  That was planned - it was co-ordinated, it was incessant and it contained a lot of joined up thinking added to individual skills.

The French - they might be starting to understand the strengths of having the world think of them as headless erratic chickens.  I feel more threatened by them now after that Italian execution than I had done.  Snakes in the grass.  All teams will have to be careful.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Meanwhile the French look on course to retain their record of winning every post Lions 6 nations.

I look on it as the French doing their usual and stoking up the engine pre WC.  France have a reasonable record at WC.  It's obviously a priority for them.. the WC happens every four year, just like Lions.

Post Lions v Pre WC................... hmmm?????

It's an insult to France, considering their record in the 6N (even outside the famous post Lions legend years) to suggest they need a Lions tour to make inroads on the competiton.  Nah...they're too good to need that trick.

Maybe thats Frances problem, they stop trying the 6 nations before a world cup?

Are you suggesting that this hastily assembled side has perfectly timed its peak for 18 months prior to aa world cup as some kind of masterplan to win that?

Or will you accet that many players find it hard to maintain their peak performance without a summer break?p

I'm saying they have the same organisational brain working for them as Team England has.  You think Lancaster isn't playing this 6N with one eye firmly on the WC?  I'd be disappointed in you if you say No.  The French aren't dumb...though some on these pages seem to constantly think they are.

Yes of course he is? I just dont understand the logic that France always win after a Lions tour not as a result of the Lions nations having key players bust up but because they are peaking for a world cup thats still 18 months away but rarely win the one immediately before a world cup.
Theyve won the last the last 4 immediately after a lions tour, and only won 2 out of the other 12 in that period.
Surely its not just coincidence?


In the case of the Welsh this year I have no doubt that many are affected by the contracts situation at home.

Isn't just that Wales always play poorly against Italy and that Ireland could be rather good?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yes of course he is? I just dont understand the logic that France always win after a Lions tour not as a result of the Lions nations having key players bust up but because they are peaking for a world cup thats still 18 months away but rarely win the one immediately before a world cup.
Theyve won the last the last 4 immediately after a lions tour, and only won 2 out of the other 12 in that period.
Surely its not just coincidence?


In the case of the Welsh this year I have no doubt that many are affected by the contracts situation at home.

If you don't understand the logic of a four year cycle then who am I to explain it to you.  The Lions happens every four years.  The World Cup happens every four years.  The space between both is two years.  France have the best 6N record (winning outside the magic Lions fatigue years too - Lions fatigue = crud in my eyes, don't and never will believe the 'fatigue' bit)  
They share with England the record of most game wins.  Far more games than their next rival for overall 6N honours - Wales.  

But then you go to the Pre bit - the World Cup.  France have been runners up on three occasions, have been 3rd once, have been 4th twice.  That's six times they've been in the top four placings in a competition that has happened only seven times.  In European terms that's the most consistent NH presence at the business end of the WC in WC history so far.  So much for them being a team that lives off the scraps of other side's 'fatigue' levels.

You continue to insult them if you say (1.) they gain potency as a team because of the Lions (2.) they don't value readiness and preparation for the WCs above the 6N.... and even then, they're the most successful 6N nation so far.  

No - France are France and they move to their own rhythms.  They don't care about us and our Lions party.

yappysnap wrote:Isn't just that Wales always play poorly against Italy and that Ireland could be rather good?

Wales' home form against Italy (who really are only a threat at home themselves against the better sides) is pretty good in recent years (from memory anyway).

Not saying that Ireland aren't rather good (possibly).

SecretFly wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Yes of course he is? I just dont understand the logic that France always win after a Lions tour not as a result of the Lions nations having key players bust up but because they are peaking for a world cup thats still 18 months away but rarely win the one immediately before a world cup.
Theyve won the last the last 4 immediately after a lions tour, and only won 2 out of the other 12 in that period.
Surely its not just coincidence?


In the case of the Welsh this year I have no doubt that many are affected by the contracts situation at home.

If you don't understand the logic of a four year cycle then who am I to explain it to you.  The Lions happens every four years.  The World Cup happens every four years.  The space between both is two years.  France have the best 6N record (winning outside the magic Lions fatigue years too - Lions fatigue = crud in my eyes, don't and never will believe the 'fatigue' bit)  
They share with England the record of most game wins.  Far more games than their next rival for overall 6N honours - Wales.  

But then you go to the Pre bit - the World Cup.  France have been runners up on three occasions, have been 3rd once, have been 4th twice.  That's six times they've been in the top four placings in a competition that has happened only seven times.  In European terms that's the most consistent NH presence at the business end of the WC in WC history so far.  So much for them being a team that lives off the scraps of other side's 'fatigue' levels.

You continue to insult them if you say (1.) they gain potency as a team because of the Lions (2.) they don't value readiness and preparation for the WCs above the 6N.... and even then, they're the most successful 6N nation so far.  

No - France are France and they move to their own rhythms.  They don't care about us and our Lions party.

How many times have they finished outside the top 4 in the non world cup years?
I really CBA to find out but I would lay monies on their average placing in each year of the 4 year cycle being roughly the same over the last 12 years except for the post lions year.
Youre arguing France peak for the world cup and their best six nations is the one preceeding it. My belief is the results dont show that.
You argue that Lions hangovers dont exist, my argument is that results from not just France but also teams who supplied a large number of key players suggest there may be a link ...along with anecdotal evidence and common sense...if you spend the summer getting smashed up you will be below peak for the next season. Players arent given recovery time. Sides are also less familiar after being broken up for the summer.

The French underperform in the 6 nations, and frankly outside the world cup given the level of resources at their disposal. They've also had a history of this in the HEC, notoriously fickle in whether they bother to turn up or not. The attitude extends to away fixtures in the home league as well. I suggest a cultural problem in French rugby where teams or individuals switching off and is accepted.

You see it as an insult to the French to suggest they tend to only win it when the better lions players are smashed up or distracted, I see it as fairly evident from the history of the pro era. Not because the French are shi1te, but because they have a propensity to not push themselves.

Obviously like everyone else they raise their game for England   

It's not evident Peter...the 6N records don't make it evident.  It's a coincidence.  A coincidence.  A coincidence occurs when the rule of cause and effect isn't always what happens.  The cause and effect of Lions fatigue does not run smoothly with French efforts in 6N.  Six Nations history gives the facts.  You give your opinion.

I've given you the details of both competitions.  France doesn't need Welsh or English or Irish players to be tired after their Lions exploits to win 6N championships.... and it certainly has a better continuous record in the WC than any of us in the NH (which the Lions 'fatigue' has no influence on whatsoever, even in biased opinion terms )

You think what you like and try to twist it any way you want.  You'll believe what you want to believe.  France, most successful 6N side, most consistent NH WC side.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They bought there own freezers which seems to have somewhat devalued the effects

D also stands for Dullard

Scratch wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They bought there own freezers which seems to have somewhat devalued the effects

D also stands for Dullard

I guess they could sit in the fish counter in Cardiff market, that might help cool Phillips down!   

Scratch wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:They bought there own freezers which seems to have somewhat devalued the effects

D also stands for Dullard

What do you mean by that scratch?

Wales needs to find new ideas.

Playing the same manner since 2008 becomes stale, it doesn't challenge the players anymore and the enthusiasm wanes.

Look at SA, they stuck religiously to Jake white's plan and got nowhere, now they have a new lease on life.

Make a change, after all , it is said a change is as good as a holiday.

As somebody once said, it's no good putting new wine into old bottles. New coaches bring new ideas, the ideas get worked out, but the same coaches rarely come up with new ones. The cycle repeats.

Coaches can change, look at Fergie... he developed many sides.... most importantly his style changed with his players. Thats why he stayed for so long.

He never made his players conform to his style. He adapted to the times and the best available players. Gatland however really tries to fit his players around his model... talent that are ill-suited tend to get disgarded.

Woodward also stayed a long time in the job because he was mainly an ideas man and always looked into how he could mix it up. He took radical ideas... sometimes they paid off, sometimes they fell like a lead balloon.

Fair point - but Fergie is really exceptional. Most football managers have the lifespan of mayflies.

Woodward, like  Gatland, had a group of exceptional players, which can make a coach look like a genius. When the players lose their edge, the coach suddenly looks ordinary - as Woodward did with the Lions.

samuraidragon wrote:Fair point - but Fergie is really exceptional. Most football managers have the lifespan of mayflies.

Woodward, like  Gatland, had a group of exceptional players, which can make a coach look like a genius. When the players lose their edge, the coach suddenly looks ordinary - as Woodward did with the Lions.

Woodward did not adapt at all well to the changes in the team post 2003. The team itself was not all exceptional when he started. Building the world cup team took a long time. The biggest failing was in bringing on the next generation. And that failing shared between the RFU and Woodward

Woodward became a parody of himself.

Yes in the beginning he brought organisation and professionalism where there was little.

But he only had one envelope to push. By the end his desire to add more and more layers of structure and "professionalism" became counter productive, culminating in that absurd tour to NZ in 2005 when the lions took almost every man woman and child with a passport in the uk to NZ under some guise or another. Over-bloated self-indulgence almost to the point of obsessive-compulsive meltdown on details. I've read some of the stuff on his four hour twice-daily team meetings, clip boards and slide-rules. He's lost the focus of what he was trying to achieve amidst his layers of redundant over-functioning.

Biltong wrote:Wales needs to find new ideas.

Playing the same manner since 2008 becomes stale, it doesn't challenge the players anymore and the enthusiasm wanes.

Look at SA, they stuck religiously to Jake white's plan and got nowhere, now they have a new lease on life.

Make a change, after all , it is said a change is as good as a holiday.

That sums it up nicely for me. Absolutley zero to do with the Lions tour except that they played the same style on that tour as they usually do with Wales.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Woodward became a parody of himself.

Yes in the beginning he brought organisation and professionalism where there was little.

But he only had one envelope to push. By the end his desire to add more and more layers of structure and "professionalism" became counter productive, culminating in that absurd tour to NZ in 2005 when the lions took almost every man woman and child with a passport in the uk to NZ under some guise or another. Over-bloated self-indulgence almost to the point of obsessive-compulsive meltdown on details. I've read some of the stuff on his four hour twice-daily team meetings, clip boards and slide-rules. He's lost the focus of what he was trying to achieve amidst his layers of redundant over-functioning.

I think you are wrong about Woodward. Cant understand why you have a chip on you shoulder when it comes to him. Is it because he toured NZ sucessfully with England? He has clearly made mistakes but he will be remembered for the brilliant things he did and there were plenty of those. He also seems like a fairly intellegent and affable sort, a failed Lions tour to NZ doesnt change that.

Look we all know Woodward was carried by the genius that is Andy Robinson   

Woodward does seem to be playing the roll of the nutter in the corner full of crazy quotes these days. What however does slightly bug me is how he is portrayed by certain nationalities as the worst lions manager ever rather than the manager of the only NH team to dominate modern world rugby for any span and deliver a world cup

lostinwales wrote:Woodward does seem to be playing the roll of the nutter in the corner full of crazy quotes these days. What however does slightly bug me is how he is portrayed by certain nationalities as the worst lions manager ever rather than the manager of the only NH team to dominate modern world rugby for any span and deliver a world cup

I will always remember him for his 6 nations campaigns, particularly the game against in Dublin in '03. Both teams were playing for the championship, both good teams. However, England were so ruthless in every way even before the match kicked off when Johnno made the Ireland president walk on mud to annoy everyone. Ireland had a very good team but England meant business and I think a lot of that was down to Woodwards coaching.

Ireland have never been pummelled so badly at home since and I think learned so much from that match. It was almost the catalyst for a good run in the 6 nations for us.

Some of my favorite England players ever came from that team, Back, Dallaglio, Lewsey, Robinson, Greenwood etc.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Woodward does seem to be playing the roll of the nutter in the corner full of crazy quotes these days. What however does slightly bug me is how he is portrayed by certain nationalities as the worst lions manager ever rather than the manager of the only NH team to dominate modern world rugby for any span and deliver a world cup

I will always remember him for his 6 nations campaigns, particularly the game against in Dublin in '03. Both teams were playing for the championship, both good teams. However, England were so ruthless in every way even before the match kicked off when Johnno made the Ireland president walk on mud to annoy everyone. Ireland had a very good team but England meant business and I think a lot of that was down to Woodwards coaching.

Did she ever get her shoes clean?   

Not funny Scrumpy. It was fairly disrespectful but takes a lot of balls.

GunsGerms wrote:Not funny Scrumpy. It was fairly disrespectful but takes a lot of balls.

Why do Ireland continue with their pre-game pomp anyway?

Just get on with it!   

lostinwales wrote:Woodward does seem to be playing the roll of the nutter in the corner full of crazy quotes these days. What however does slightly bug me is how he is portrayed by certain nationalities as the worst lions manager ever rather than the manager of the only NH team to dominate modern world rugby for any span and deliver a world cup

Can't he be both? Wasn't he both???!

Griff wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Woodward does seem to be playing the roll of the nutter in the corner full of crazy quotes these days. What however does slightly bug me is how he is portrayed by certain nationalities as the worst lions manager ever rather than the manager of the only NH team to dominate modern world rugby for any span and deliver a world cup

Can't he be both?  Wasn't he both???!

Well he was, although some would say there is competition on the Lions management side. Its just that the Lions thing is repeated all the time as a way of putting him down. Its the equivalent of saying Graham Henry is a crap coach because of the end of his spell in Wales (and his Lions performance) and ignoring what he did after.

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Not funny Scrumpy. It was fairly disrespectful but takes a lot of balls.

Why do Ireland continue with their pre-game pomp anyway?

Just get on with it!   

What, do they not do it in Twickers? Who shakes the hands there?