Welsh depth - Scrum halves and wingers

With the calls to drop Phillips there hasn't been much consensus as to who would replace him? We were also lucky that we found Cuthbert so soon after Shane WIlliams' retirement. But both these positions are weak for Wales, and there is a clear lack of quality coming through the ranks.

Scrum Halves
The ones in the squad:
Rhys Webb
Rhodri Williams

The ones out of favour:
Lloyd Williams
Tavis Knoyle
Richie Rees

The potentials:
Gareth Davies
Jonathan Evans

None of which strike me as potential top international class scrum halves, who would you pick if Phillips is dropped tomorrow? And who is the most likely to take the starting place in the world cup?

Wingers
Hallam Amos
Tom Prydie
Eli Walker
Hanno Dirksen?
Harry Robinson

All of whom do not have the same finishing ability as North and Cuthbert, with the exception of maybe Eli Walker who is too injury prone for international rugby.

The one I'd pick out at 9 is Gareth Davies, I think he's got what it takes at top level.

Not wanting to sound too Scarlet, but I'd keep an eye out for Kristian Phillips and Jordan Williams. KP used to look a bit scared of contact, but he's looking more confident now. Williams has definite defence issues to work on, but his attacking is awesome.

Yep, Gareth Davies would have been in my squad for over a year.

BlueNote wrote:The one I'd pick out at 9 is Gareth Davies, I think he's got what it takes at top level.

Not wanting to sound too Scarlet, but I'd keep an eye out for Kristian Phillips and Jordan Williams.  KP used to look a bit scared of contact, but he's looking more confident now.  Williams has definite defence issues to work on, but his attacking is awesome.

I thought Williams was more of a flyhalf/fullback but I suppose hes doing fine on the wing, JOC style.

from looking at gatlands squads over the past year or so, there are 3 players in which have been heavily involved in the past squads who i am hoping will be 1st choice by the world cup.

Rhodri Williams
Rhys Patchell
Samson Lee

I also believe that gatland is allowing them to develop within the camp, so when they make the step up (hopefully soon) then they will be well and truly integrated. I think Patchell would have had more game time already apart from a few unfortunate injuries which have come up at the worst times. I believe that these 3 will be a huge difference (samson lee less so as AJ is still a quality player, but i certainly expect lee to be 2nd choice pushing on 1st)
Patchell has an excellent running,kicking,distributing game for such a young guy. Has pace to burn for a fly half and with an excellent quick service from williams, who also poses as a threat around rucks should allow us to utilise our strike runners and deadly finishers.

I agree, Patchell looks very promising at 10.

Patchell has looked excellent at times, but poor at others. I'm worried he's not used correctly at the Blues with their kicking game, his strengths are his ability to attack/break the line and offload, but he has a monstrous boot on him as well. He has all the attributes to be a great 10.

However flyhalf is anotehr debate, I think Dan Biggar or Priestland will be our 10 at the world cup unless one of these youngsters (Owen Williams(Tigers)/Rhys Patchell)has an absolute blinder over the next 2 seasons.

Scrum half and wingers are more worrying for us.

surely the challenge for wales currently is how to transition away from a 6ft4 flanker at 9 that suits gatball perfectly, and that the team is used to playing with, to anything else.

physically are any of the options you mention above of a similar stature to MP?

quinsforever wrote:surely the challenge for wales currently is how to transition away from a 6ft4 flanker at 9 that suits gatball perfectly, and that the team is used to playing with, to anything else.

physically are any of the options you mention above of a similar stature to MP?

No, and that is part of the problem, Phillips is key to Gatlandball

I've always believed that Richie Rees has had good potential, this season especially he has been the Dragons play make when starting and changed the game when he has come of the bench.

I would have him in the team and would like to see him have another go. I think Rhodri Williams is still to small and young for international level; at current our best scrum half (at the Scarlet's) is Gareth Davies who may no be at international level yet but he has that spark that Mike Phillips has put out. However the in form scrum half a and only scrum half who deserves to start on current form is Rhys Webb who has come back to the Opryes and been phenomenal. If I was coach i completely drop Phillips from the set up, start Rhys Webb vs France, bring Richie Rees on off the bench and bring Garth Davies in to gain some experience and get use to the set up an get a taste of international rugby. They won't be international class at the moment but that's what development is for, short term loss (even though Mike isn;t a loss) for a long  term gain.

If Mike was really a proud Welshman he would retire  from international.  And to rephrase Roger Lewis ' it would be in the best interests of welsh rugby'   

Wing is my main concern after Cuthbert and George we don;t have anything really. Granted Liam Williams can cover but he is primarily a full back and seen as a bench player to cover more positions.
Next in line is Eli Walker who has yet to proves his worth on the big stage and only just coming back from injury. Again in an ideal world i would have Lee Byrne back in and see how Halfpenny copes from the pressure; he is one of the players who really needs to step his game up of late.

Gareth Davies would be choice at No9 then Walker and Dirksen pushing for wing slots. Liam Williams does seem the next one immediately in line though and while most think he better at XV he can still do a job on the wing. Patchell doesn't do it for me.

Taken from another forum --
 
"The thing with Phillips no matter how Poopie he plays or acts on or off the pitch, his name will be first on next team sheet.
One of reasons there is no back up to him because Gats and Howlers have purposely ignored any decent 9 that has been competition for Phillips for a few years, and still are.
He has had his day, nearly 32 now and no decent replacement for him because of lack of opportunities to other 9s, because of Howlers nepotism and stubbornness."
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So True !

Janecory wrote:Taken from another forum --
 
"The thing with Phillips no matter how Poopie he plays or acts on or off the pitch, his name will be first on next team sheet.
One of reasons there is no back up to him because Gats and Howlers have purposely ignored any decent 9 that has been competition for Phillips for a few years, and still are.
He has had his day, nearly 32 now and no decent replacement for him because of lack of opportunities to other 9s, because of Howlers nepotism and stubbornness."
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So True !

The same can be said about l/head and t/head because unless they have been injured we have never tried others out there.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Janecory wrote:Taken from another forum --
 
"The thing with Phillips no matter how Poopie he plays or acts on or off the pitch, his name will be first on next team sheet.
One of reasons there is no back up to him because Gats and Howlers have purposely ignored any decent 9 that has been competition for Phillips for a few years, and still are.
He has had his day, nearly 32 now and no decent replacement for him because of lack of opportunities to other 9s, because of Howlers nepotism and stubbornness."
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So True !

The same can be said about l/head and t/head because unless they have been injured we have never tried others out there.

Agree most of the Welsh team has been unchanged for a few years,  there are only two  positions that are up for grabs and they are the o/half and flankers spots.
The rest of the Team is already in place for the next game, bar injuries.
Most of these players know no matter how bad they play in their last game , they will play in the forth-coming game.

I remain convinced that Janecory is in fact Richie Rees!

I do agree though, Wales need an alternative to Mike Phillips, because he isn't playing well at the moment.

We are, IMO, lucky in Wales to have many, many hugely promising young WQ scrum halves; Rhodri Williams (20), Rhys Webb (25), Gareth Davies (23), Aled Davies (21), Lloyd Williams (24) and many others.    

We are also, IMO, lucky to have many, many hugely promising young WQ wingers; Kristian Phillips (23), Dafydd Howells (18), Jordan Williams (20), Aaron Warren (20), Hallam Amos (19) and many others.          

How about giving Matthew Morgan (21) a go on the wing?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Z27soqWRM

Matthew Morgan is too small for international rugby I think, his defensive frailties will be a liability

IronMike wrote:Matthew Morgan is too small for international rugby I think, his defensive frailties will be a liability

IM,

He may well be but at the moment he's not regular first choice for the Os anyway, if he was and he had played from the start in all the big league and cup games and was producing the goods week in week out then for he at least deserves a crack to prove doubters wrong etc.

Could you, for argument sake carry his weakness with say Roberts and the backrow helping him out?

You could, but its still a weak link and teams will exploit it. Unless he is as good as say, Aaron Cruden, then there is no need for him to be in the team. But for all his pace and jinking ability is he a better flyhalf than Owen Williams, Patchell, Biggar, Hook or Priestland?

BlueNote wrote:I agree, Patchell looks very promising at 10.

You wouldn't consider him at inside centre or FB? I reckon he's better FB cover than Liam Williams.

Nematode wrote:

BlueNote wrote:I agree, Patchell looks very promising at 10.

You wouldn't consider him at inside centre or FB? I reckon he's better FB cover than Liam Williams.

No we don;t need anther situation like Hook, h is a good 10 and should develop in that position.

Nematode wrote:

BlueNote wrote:I agree, Patchell looks very promising at 10.

You wouldn't consider him at inside centre or FB? I reckon he's better FB cover than Liam Williams.

Judging from what I've seen of him at FB, definitely not his strongest position, he has the attributes of a good inside centre but he would be more of a play maker which is not Gatlands style

IronMike wrote:

Nematode wrote:

BlueNote wrote:I agree, Patchell looks very promising at 10.

You wouldn't consider him at inside centre or FB? I reckon he's better FB cover than Liam Williams.

Judging from what I've seen of him at FB, definitely not his strongest position, he has the attributes of a good inside centre but he would be more of a play maker which is not Gatlands style

Gatlandselected Henson at inside centre for our first grandaslam and tried to select him there up until just before the RWC in 2011. So I don't think Gatland has an issue with creative inside centres.

Hook has been playing at fullback and flyhalf, not at centre. He can play the and he is a good attacking option but without the experience of regularly playing there I would imagine he would be defencively week.

As a bench option he can do a job in the centre, but I think it looks likely now that we will see a rather direct Roberts and north combo...

Let's just hope St Andre doesn't select Fickou and fofana else they could run rings around us.

IronMike wrote:Matthew Morgan is too small for international rugby I think, his defensive frailties will be a liability

Didn't they once say that about a recently retired welsh winger?

doddieman wrote:Didn't they once say that about a recently retired welsh winger?

                  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2069331/Shane-Williams-says-farewell-Wales-For-final-time-wizard-Oz.html#ixzz2tkEXGdln wrote:
Having recently guided his native New Zealand to World Cup glory, Henry said: ‘Shane has been a world-class player but there were plenty who were against the selection when I first picked him.

‘Many thought he was simply too small for international rugby.’

doddieman wrote:

IronMike wrote:Matthew Morgan is too small for international rugby I think, his defensive frailties will be a liability

Didn't they once say that about a recently retired welsh winger?

I think Morgan is smaller than Shane.


Superbly talented though, deserves an opportunity to play regular rugby and that hasn't come as Biggars understudy.

maestegmafia wrote:

doddieman wrote:

IronMike wrote:Matthew Morgan is too small for international rugby I think, his defensive frailties will be a liability

Didn't they once say that about a recently retired welsh winger?

I think Morgan is smaller than Shane.


Superbly talented though, deserves an opportunity to play regular rugby and that hasn't come as Biggars understudy.

Again whilst its great we have these players where would he get regular 1st team opportunities in Wales. He's currently not getting it at the O's with Biggar

The Blues have Patchell

Scarlets Priestland

Dragons Tovey, though there are rumours he has been linked with a move to us at Dave, great in theory but in practice I am not so sure. 1 I think Tovey is vastly underrated and would have him ahead of Patchell in the Wales pecking order and 2 given our struggles up front he would constantly be on the back foot which for a player of his style is not great.

He has had plenty of interest from the English premiership too.

I agree on your point, I think the Dragons are too frequently touted as somewhere a player should go but in reality unless you were a decent prop or hooker, you would struggle to get in the dragons match day 23.

The ospreys will likely favour Sam Davies over Morgan. He would be a good option for the Scarlets or Blues who both lack depth at flyhalf.

I want Morgan to play 80 minutes against Munster next Sunday.

I always wondered why Rees has not played more at 9 for Wales. I don't know the welsh players well enough to be sure of any of the others but Rees would seem able to do a job for you. There must be a decent 9 in Wales who can do the basics right and quickly!

Bigger is the ten with Preistland as sub / backup IMO

TJ wrote:I always wondered why Rees has not played more at 9 for Wales.  I don't know the welsh players well enough to be sure of any of the others but Rees would seem able to do a job for you.  There must be a decent 9 in Wales who can do the basics right and quickly!

Bigger is the ten with Preistland as sub / backup IMO

Rees was banned for "reckless contact with the eyes" on Dylan Hartley during a Heineken Cup game back in...2010? There was nothing really in it, he shoved him in the face. Either way he never got a look in for Wales after that ban.

He had a good season at Glasgow IIRC. How has he done back in Wales?

TJ wrote:He had a good season at Glasgow IIRC.  How has he done back in Wales?

Been one of the form 9s in Wales this season along with G Davies down at the Scarlets but neither currently in the Welsh set up.

There are some rumours about his discipline in the past counting against him and he hasn't figured since the incident with Hartley, some would say he's always going to be on the outside due to be with us at Dave but our players don't get totally ignored and at least he knows how to play behind a beaten pack