South Africa v Australia, First Test, Centurion

First topic message reminder :

So the much anticipated series is getting underway tomorrow. South Africa, the number 1 side in the world, will be taking on a confident Australia. South Africa have enjoyed a solid stay at the top of the test rankings, for a year and a half, and the Australians are coming into this series after Thumping, Pulverizing, Thrashing, Humiliating and destroying England 5-0 in the recently concluded Ashes series.
Both sides have quality bowling units, and 4 of the top 5 ranked bowlers will be battling it out, and cricinfo points out, that doesn't even include Mitchell Johnson!. And Morne Morkel as well.
Australia are likely to go in with Shaun Marsh and Alex Doolan for the injured Shane Watson and the dropped George Bailey, the rest of their Ashes winning side should stay the same.
South Africa are likely to bring in one of Ryan McLaren and Wayne Parnell, and move Faf du Plessis to 4, as they contemplate life after Kallis. JP Duminy has some injury concerns going into the match, but he is likely to play.

msp83 wrote:LB, Doolan looks like an all-rounder in the making. India had one some time back who could take wickets at shortleg, Eknath Solkar. Doolan's not in that league yet, but the 2 reflex takes were absolutely outstanding.

Simply amazing catches and he was handy with the bat too. I'm sure Eknath Solkar would have been impressed.   

These modern fieldsmen, however, are in a different League. The amount of work they put in - they actually practice those types of scenarios - added to their high level of fitness just takes the game to another level more frequently. There's been some freakishly brilliant catching recently. The sort of ones you'd never expect to be taken.

I was making the point earlier how he has been mentored by Ponting. I think Doolan has a more polite and relaxed character but has the same insatiable drive to achieve big things. He also seems pretty calm and assured in his abilities. It's good to see him gaining some early rewards in the Test arena with his batting too.

Alviro Petersen has been inconsistent, but he has always performed when people started talking about his place in the side. He had a decent series against India recently. Are there better options? Quinton de Kock, despite his ODI successes at the top of the order, is more suited to a middle order role in tests. Jacques Rudolph is not consistent enough for test cricket and never took his chances. Besides, he's not any young either. Rilee Rossouw does appear to be promising but is he ready for the step up?

Msp, it is time we test a few youngsters

Linebreaker wrote:

msp83 wrote:LB, Doolan looks like an all-rounder in the making. India had one some time back who could take wickets at shortleg, Eknath Solkar. Doolan's not in that league yet, but the 2 reflex takes were absolutely outstanding.

Simply amazing catches and he was handy with the bat too. I'm sure Eknath Solkar would have been impressed.   

These modern fieldsmen, however, are in a different League. The amount of work they put in - they actually practice those types of scenarios - added to their high level of fitness just takes the game to another level more frequently. There's been some freakishly brilliant catching recently. The sort of ones you'd never expect to be taken.

I was making the point earlier how he has been mentored by Ponting. I think Doolan has a more polite and relaxed character but has the same insatiable drive to achieve big things. He also seems pretty calm and assured in his abilities. It's good to see him gaining some early rewards in the Test arena with his batting too.

People have been talking about the similarities between Michael Vaughan and Doolan in regard to some of the shots the latter played. Like Vaughan, Doolan also has an underwhelming FC record, but his performance in this game should make people wonder as to why is his record not as good as it should have been.

Biltong wrote:Msp, it is time we test a few youngsters

Have you watched Simon Harmer in action? He averages nearly 4 wickets per game in FC cricket which is not at all bad for a South African offy. And he has a FC batting average of 33. He has been around the South African setup and played for the A side. Since Peterson and Tahir are not really delivering, why are they not giving the youngster a run?

Harmie says drop Peterson, Faf to seven and Abbot in. Not heard of Abbot? For a seamers pitch.

Abbot is a good call as well, as is Harmer

msp83 wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

msp83 wrote:LB, Doolan looks like an all-rounder in the making. India had one some time back who could take wickets at shortleg, Eknath Solkar. Doolan's not in that league yet, but the 2 reflex takes were absolutely outstanding.

Simply amazing catches and he was handy with the bat too. I'm sure Eknath Solkar would have been impressed.   

These modern fieldsmen, however, are in a different League. The amount of work they put in - they actually practice those types of scenarios - added to their high level of fitness just takes the game to another level more frequently. There's been some freakishly brilliant catching recently. The sort of ones you'd never expect to be taken.

I was making the point earlier how he has been mentored by Ponting. I think Doolan has a more polite and relaxed character but has the same insatiable drive to achieve big things. He also seems pretty calm and assured in his abilities. It's good to see him gaining some early rewards in the Test arena with his batting too.

People have been talking about the similarities between Michael Vaughan and Doolan in regard to some of the shots the latter played. Like Vaughan, Doolan also has an underwhelming FC record, but his performance in this game should make people wonder as to why is his record not as good as it should have been.

I suppose the only record he is interested in is his current Test one which he seems to have made a good start. Time will tell. I can't see any similarities with Vaughan just yet. I don't think Doolan would have that thought (which people have been talking about) on his mind at the moment.

Back to seven specialist batsmen, four bowlers and Duminy the extra option. Like before.

This is why Kallis's bowling will be missed!

Well played on the Aussies.   Aggressive captaincy by Clarke with his declaration. Not that there was much danger of a SA win..

Hahaha, aggressive captaincy?

Come on mate, aggressive caotaincy would be to set a target under 400.

They simply batted SA out of the game.

But some captains might have kept the batsmen fiddling around until nearly lunchtime on 4th day.  I'm not suggesting it was a risky declaration.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:But some captains might have kept the batsmen fiddling around until nearly lunchtime on 4th day.  I'm not suggesting it was a risky declaration.

Cook would have  

I did not probably want to before.

But i can now see why Clarke is regarded by many as the best captain of Test teams at this moment in time.

Credit where credit is due.

Mitchell Johnson take a bow!! That was simply outstanding!

Today was a rather bad day at the cricket - Got there a little late, and I had to sit in the back of the grass embankment. Couldn't see behind the throngs of Camp chairs and tents... The Wanderers is a way superior ground.

On to the cricket... The difference between Mitchell Johnson and everyone else live is night and day. Jesus Christ is he fast!! That alone made my day worth it. Congratulations on a very comprehensive victory LB.

Well done, MJ, thrashing England has really given him the confidence he needed!

Did anyone see Vernon Philander's six near the end? If you look really carefully, you'll see me under an umbrella trying to backpedal because I've lost sight of the ball and I fear for my life!

But, I cannot stress how impressive Johnson is up close. I've seen a lot of cricketers in my life, I've never anyone bowl as fast for that long. There are some people who won't be convinced by him, naturally. But no one in the entire stadium saw the ball that hit McLaren. I'm a believer and if you get a chance, I'd suggest you watch Mitchell before his body breaks down from what I have to assume is ridiculous strain.

On to my team. Nice of McLaren to prove himself completely out of his depth in my presence. I honestly can't see how anyone could think he is a superior bat to Philander or Robin Peterson. For me, Robin has to work on his batting. Watching him live, you get an understanding of just how good he is, or rather could be. Duminy is probably on borrowed time, especially since Kallis left. Overall, I think people are about to discover just how massive a hole JK has created.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Well done, MJ, thrashing England has really given him the confidence he needed!

Actually CJ, it's the IPL that's made him what he is today... credit where credit is due.   

Partying last night so didn't see the SA second innings , but gather it was similar to the first...not too surprised. Once Australia gets on top they are hard to stop....and Johnson is really in magic form.
Smith made a bad decision at the toss ; and it cost him. Did think the SA bowling looked a bit flat , so I won't rule them out of a comeback in the next match. Imagine there will be team changes , though I think they'd be ill advised to panic. They surely need a full set of six real batsmen though ; that tail looked too long to me even before the match started.
As for Australia : why change it ? Watson has really only one innings of note with any sort of pressure on him in the past umpteen Tests , so only his bowling has kept him safe. And with Johnson doing his thing the need for a fifth bowler has been less lately...of course this next match might be different , and his bowling might be missed ; but is it not worth that risk , to see whether Marsh and Doolan can back up their efforts in this game before making a call on the team balance ? After all , with his injury record , the chances of Watson being a serious fifth bowler much longer seem dubious at best...

There are interesting sub-plots for the national team (S.A.)...
- Steyn, he's bowled within himself for last few years, choosing to clock it at 85-90mph while swinging it late somewhat. It's worked, of course (and he did take six wickets in Centurion)... but maybe just maybe he needs to revert to the 150kmh missiles which led to him climbing up the ladder. A quick search reveals his fastest ball ever was 156.3kph... If he can find that, would be interesting to see what Australians do when it's at their throats.

Parnell or McLaren? In Wayne Parnell, we have our own left armer 150kph bowler. A bit like Johnson, he too lost his way a bit trying to swing it and other such frivolous details cricket fans like to call "skill". Would be interesting to see what he could do if he was also instructed to just bowl really fast around the throat area.

JP Duminy - Let's face facts, Duminy hasn't exactly set the world alight. There are about half a dozen youngsters looking for a spot there, and one of them, a certain Quinton de Kock, would probably relish the chance to have Mitchell Johnson aiming for his helmet.

Like Alfie said, it's not prudent to panic, but it's quite apparent that Jacques Kallis allowed a few passengers by virtue of average 55 (bat) and 32 (ball)

Morne morkel a doubt for 2nd test with a shoulder problem, so Parnell could come in anyway..

We play Zimbabwe later in the year, that's the time to blood the youngsters. 

I'd like to see Simon Harmer and Stiann van Zyl debut in that series. 

As for Port Elizabeth, I'd like to see Quinton de Kock debut(batting at 6) and keeping. 

AB moving up to 4. Faf down to 5. JP down to 7 as the spin bowling all rounder. 

McLaren and Robin Peterson out. 

Kyle Abbott in as the 4th seamer, after getting 9 wickets on debut he's deserves a second cap. And he's from Durban, surely that's a good thing...  

If Morne's unfit, then I'm more than happy for Wayne Parnell to replace him. As KR said, Parnell is bowling 150kph. He'll give the Aussies a hurry up. 

Last chance saloon for Alviro Petersen.

Shane Watson will not return to Australia's Test XI in South Africa until he can bowl, effectively ruling him out of the second Test in Port Elizabeth.

Same team then.

Win again and he might be out for a while even if fit to bowl.

At least i don't need a hat  

Finally Australia are having a little more luck come their way.

Watto might well be useful in the ODIs but it would have been unfair to drop any of Rogers, Doolan or Marsh for him in this next Test match.

Linebreaker wrote:Finally Australia are having a little more luck come their way.

Watto might well be useful in the ODIs but it would have been unfair to drop any of Rogers, Doolan or Marsh for him in this next Test match.

Totally agree, Linebreaker. Also, the momentum is with the eleven who played in the team that won the first Test so convincingly. It is unnecessary and might be asking for trouble to change that so soon now.

The second Test being so close on the heels of the first might pose something of a dilemma for South Africa. Some of their players were poor and are understandably being spoken of as contenders for the chop. However, will there be adequate time to properly integrate several new players into their team?

guildfordbat wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Finally Australia are having a little more luck come their way.

Watto might well be useful in the ODIs but it would have been unfair to drop any of Rogers, Doolan or Marsh for him in this next Test match.

Totally agree, Linebreaker. Also, the momentum is with the eleven who played in the team that won the first Test so convincingly. It is unnecessary and might be asking for trouble to change that so soon now.

The second Test being so close on the heels of the first might pose something of a dilemma for South Africa. Some of their players were poor and are understandably being spoken of as contenders for the chop. However, will there be adequate time to properly integrate several new players into their team?

I think they're stuck with the 15-man squad, guildford. So Parnell definitely in for the injured MM and that would leave only Elgar and Kleinveldt.
Not sure if they can add to the squad and risk playing QdK, van Zyl or Harmer.

If South Africa play JP Duminy at 6 and Ryan McLaren at 7, they are certainly giving themselves every chance to be thumped again. You can't have such a long tail.

Linebreaker wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Finally Australia are having a little more luck come their way.

Watto might well be useful in the ODIs but it would have been unfair to drop any of Rogers, Doolan or Marsh for him in this next Test match.

Totally agree, Linebreaker. Also, the momentum is with the eleven who played in the team that won the first Test so convincingly. It is unnecessary and might be asking for trouble to change that so soon now.

The second Test being so close on the heels of the first might pose something of a dilemma for South Africa. Some of their players were poor and are understandably being spoken of as contenders for the chop. However, will there be adequate time to properly integrate several new players into their team?

I think they're stuck with the 15-man squad, guildford. So Parnell definitely in for the injured MM and that would leave only Elgar and Kleinveldt.
Not sure if they can add to the squad and risk playing QdK, van Zyl or Harmer.

With the batting line up as it is we are exposed to be thumped, we can't be worse off than we already are by playing the youngsters.

McLaren out for the second time with concussion-like symptoms. Feel for him, but can't say he'd make my XI even at full health. Hopefully the second test brings a bit more luck for our bowlers, who I thought did well considering Steyn's stomach bug, Morkel's injury, and some listless fielding. Think Abbot could sneak in honestly. Parnell for McLaren, Abbot for Morkel. Doesn't change the fact that the real problem is the moustached menace and his cartoonish head.

kingraf wrote: concussion-like symptoms.

Is that code for "drunk"?

no, it's code for "Mitchell Johnson put the fear of god into me".... He's walked around in a daze since Sunday.

looking to the second test at Port Elizabeth, South Africa have to select 7 batsmen as the batting with 6 specialist batsmen looks too fragile. So here is my Springbok XI:-

1 G Smith
2 A Peterson
3 H Amla
4 Ab De Villiers
5 F du Plessis
6 D Elgar
7 JP Duminy
8 V Philander
9 W Parnell
10 D Steyn
11 M Morkel

Elgar isn't test class, Duminy isn't good enough. By playing both of them, SA will end up weakening both batting and bowling. Parnell for McLaren, and if Morne isn't fit, then Kleinveldt in for him. Would have liked them to consider de Kock and Harmer but that doesn't seem likely.

msp83 wrote:Elgar isn't test class, Duminy isn't good enough. By playing both of them, SA will end up weakening both batting and bowling. Parnell for McLaren, and if Morne isn't fit, then Kleinveldt in for him. Would have liked them to consider de Kock and Harmer but that doesn't seem likely.

But South Africa's biggest problem as was the case with England in the recent ashes is in the batting department. There aren't any young batsmen in the SA domestic scene apart from Quinton de Kock who look ready to step up and play at a test match level. On this basis, older guys like Elgar, Duminy and du Plessis will have to be selected regardless of whether over the longer term they have the ability and class required to cope well at a test match level. Also what has happened to Jacques Rudolph? On SA's last tour of England in 2012 he batted at 6 or 7 for the Springboks. Also what about the idea of relieving Ab de Villiers of the gloves and bringing in a specialist wicketkeeper who has a decent batting average such as Heino Kuhn. The advantage that Kuhn will have over someone like de Kock is that as he (Kuhn) bats right-handed, this will help reduce the effectiveness/danger factor that Mitchell Johnson currently has of producing those nasty short pitched deliveries aimed at the lefthanders ribcage area.

gboycottnut1 wrote:

msp83 wrote:Elgar isn't test class, Duminy isn't good enough. By playing both of them, SA will end up weakening both batting and bowling. Parnell for McLaren, and if Morne isn't fit, then Kleinveldt in for him. Would have liked them to consider de Kock and Harmer but that doesn't seem likely.

But South Africa's biggest problem as was the case with England in the recent ashes is in the batting department. There aren't any young batsmen in the SA domestic scene apart from Quinton de Kock who look ready to step up and play at a test match level. On this basis, older guys like Elgar, Duminy and du Plessis will have to be selected regardless of whether over the longer term they have the ability and class required to cope well at a test match level. Also what has happened to Jacques Rudolph? On SA's last tour of England in 2012 he batted at 6 or 7 for the Springboks. Also what about the idea of relieving Ab de Villiers of the gloves and bringing in a specialist wicketkeeper who has a decent batting average such as Heino Kuhn. The advantage that Kuhn will have over someone like de Kock is that as he (Kuhn) bats right-handed, this will help reduce the effectiveness/danger factor that Mitchell Johnson currently has of producing those nasty short pitched deliveries aimed at the lefthanders ribcage area.

ABDV does both brilliantly. Not an option at the moment.

Would only weaken the team.

skyeman wrote:

gboycottnut1 wrote:

msp83 wrote:Elgar isn't test class, Duminy isn't good enough. By playing both of them, SA will end up weakening both batting and bowling. Parnell for McLaren, and if Morne isn't fit, then Kleinveldt in for him. Would have liked them to consider de Kock and Harmer but that doesn't seem likely.

But South Africa's biggest problem as was the case with England in the recent ashes is in the batting department. There aren't any young batsmen in the SA domestic scene apart from Quinton de Kock who look ready to step up and play at a test match level. On this basis, older guys like Elgar, Duminy and du Plessis will have to be selected regardless of whether over the longer term they have the ability and class required to cope well at a test match level. Also what has happened to Jacques Rudolph? On SA's last tour of England in 2012 he batted at 6 or 7 for the Springboks. Also what about the idea of relieving Ab de Villiers of the gloves and bringing in a specialist wicketkeeper who has a decent batting average such as Heino Kuhn. The advantage that Kuhn will have over someone like de Kock is that as he (Kuhn) bats right-handed, this will help reduce the effectiveness/danger factor that Mitchell Johnson currently has of producing those nasty short pitched deliveries aimed at the lefthanders ribcage area.

ABDV does both brilliantly. Not an option at the moment.

Would only weaken the team.

there is no denying that he does both roles brilliantly, it is just that if he just concentrates on batting he would be even better.

gboycottnut1 wrote:

skyeman wrote:

gboycottnut1 wrote:

msp83 wrote:Elgar isn't test class, Duminy isn't good enough. By playing both of them, SA will end up weakening both batting and bowling. Parnell for McLaren, and if Morne isn't fit, then Kleinveldt in for him. Would have liked them to consider de Kock and Harmer but that doesn't seem likely.

But South Africa's biggest problem as was the case with England in the recent ashes is in the batting department. There aren't any young batsmen in the SA domestic scene apart from Quinton de Kock who look ready to step up and play at a test match level. On this basis, older guys like Elgar, Duminy and du Plessis will have to be selected regardless of whether over the longer term they have the ability and class required to cope well at a test match level. Also what has happened to Jacques Rudolph? On SA's last tour of England in 2012 he batted at 6 or 7 for the Springboks. Also what about the idea of relieving Ab de Villiers of the gloves and bringing in a specialist wicketkeeper who has a decent batting average such as Heino Kuhn. The advantage that Kuhn will have over someone like de Kock is that as he (Kuhn) bats right-handed, this will help reduce the effectiveness/danger factor that Mitchell Johnson currently has of producing those nasty short pitched deliveries aimed at the lefthanders ribcage area.

ABDV does both brilliantly. Not an option at the moment.

Would only weaken the team.

there is no denying that he does both roles brilliantly, it is just that if he just concentrates on batting he would be even better.

Sorry don't agree, his batting has taken him to higher levels and No 1 batsman in the world since becoming keeper and has improved SA, an extra man as so to speak.  Take him away from the dual role and you will lose a specialist batsman, thus weakening the team.

A similar case to Alec Stewart in Englands Test team, but to a far lesser extent.

skyeman wrote:

gboycottnut1 wrote:

skyeman wrote:

gboycottnut1 wrote:

msp83 wrote:Elgar isn't test class, Duminy isn't good enough. By playing both of them, SA will end up weakening both batting and bowling. Parnell for McLaren, and if Morne isn't fit, then Kleinveldt in for him. Would have liked them to consider de Kock and Harmer but that doesn't seem likely.

But South Africa's biggest problem as was the case with England in the recent ashes is in the batting department. There aren't any young batsmen in the SA domestic scene apart from Quinton de Kock who look ready to step up and play at a test match level. On this basis, older guys like Elgar, Duminy and du Plessis will have to be selected regardless of whether over the longer term they have the ability and class required to cope well at a test match level. Also what has happened to Jacques Rudolph? On SA's last tour of England in 2012 he batted at 6 or 7 for the Springboks. Also what about the idea of relieving Ab de Villiers of the gloves and bringing in a specialist wicketkeeper who has a decent batting average such as Heino Kuhn. The advantage that Kuhn will have over someone like de Kock is that as he (Kuhn) bats right-handed, this will help reduce the effectiveness/danger factor that Mitchell Johnson currently has of producing those nasty short pitched deliveries aimed at the lefthanders ribcage area.

ABDV does both brilliantly. Not an option at the moment.

Would only weaken the team.

there is no denying that he does both roles brilliantly, it is just that if he just concentrates on batting he would be even better.

Sorry don't agree, his batting has taken him to higher levels and No 1 batsman in the world since becoming keeper and has improved SA, an extra man as so to speak.  Take him away from the dual role and you will lose a specialist batsman, thus weakening the team.

A similar case to Alec Stewart in Englands Test team, but to a far lesser extent.

Unless De Kock is one of the best 7 batsmen in SA and he comes in and takes the gloves...