Aviva Premiership Round 15

Because Casson, he who is always injured, got injured. Then Molemaar, being a Quins centre, joined the injury club leaving us with every senior centre we have injured and Grimoldby, who's a 19 year old FH, had to play 12.

Cheers CJ

Actually your backs were OK. Dickson was very lively and OLH caused plenty of problems. The issue lay more with your forwards; you had us at the scrum but everywhere else your pack was 2nd best. In fairness Kvesic had his best game for us, but Wallace was anonymous as was Mo. Easter faired slightly better but given his behaviour towards the ref he may be required to take some time off! Kennedy and Robson didn't live up to their lineout reputation either. Having said that when you get your spine back you'll be a different team.

This was the 15th game on the trot between the 2 sides where the home team has won, so it wasn't really unexpected.

Good luck for the rest of the season!

you too, HKC. Just got to stay in the hunt...

Welly wrote:Reckon it will be points wise.

 Bath 1 - Wasps 4
 Glous 0 - Quins 4
 Wuss 1 - Sale 4
 LI 1 - Tigers 4  (actually think LI will in but I could say that)
 Falcons 0 - Saints 4
 Saracens 1 - Exeter 4

 Well I got a grand total of 1 game right.

 At least it was the one that matters the Tigs Irish game.

Courtesy of Mr JP Doyle leaving his cards in the changing room for the first half   

Will have to watch the recording back,  but having been at the game I feel a litle bit hard done by at the moment.

me too

Didn't watch any Rugby today, but it seems like pedestrian wins for Saints and Saracens. Those two, along with bath keeping close appear to be finalists.

Worcester is now 12 points back of Newcastle, and are probably doomed.

Heaf wrote:Courtesy of Mr JP Doyle leaving his cards in the changing room for the first half   

 Oh no you didn't.. 

Ozzy3213 wrote:Will have to watch the recording back,  but having been at the game I feel a litle bit hard done by at the moment.

You may want to watch it with the sound off, as Corbisiero's comments may annoy you. At various times he stated the LI scrum were trying to con the ref, and that Leicester were hard done by on a couple of occasions by refs decisions.

Even the most well meaning fans are exceedingly one-eyed when it comes to refs decisions - coaches even worse However the following quote from Brian Smith best sums up the game:

"We weren't at our best and that's the reason why we lost. If we had played to our best I might have been jumping up and down about a couple of matters."

LT.

I am sure we got some 'decisions' and Leicester got others, that's not my gripe. Two weeks ago at Saracens we conceded 9 penalties in the first half. Now there were at least 3 were I felt we were hard done by, but ultimately that is not relevant. The referee gave them. He also gave 1 yellow card to Mulchrone, which was a team yellow for constant infringing, and another to Cowan for a cynical penalty in our 22.

Today, the referee deemed that Leicester infringed on 10 occasions in the first half, but no card. That included an absolutely cynical infringement from Deacon right under the posts after 30 seconds. Now it doesn't matter if it is 30 seconds in or 30 minutes in, that sort of cynicism should be a yellow card. There was also the point where we get a penalty on halfway and and the ref talks to the Tigers captain about the constant infringing. We kick to the corner and from the resulting maul it's another penalty to us in the red zone. We go to the corner again, and same result, another penalty. Having been warned it has to be a yellow.

That sort of inconsistency from week to week is tough to take when you are losing close ones.

I agree with Smiffy, we weren't clinical enough, and had we have been, we probably would have won the game, but that doesn't detract from the fact that taken over the course of the season, and very much including today, we've had a raw deal from the refs.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Will have to watch the recording back,  but having been at the game I feel a litle bit hard done by at the moment.

I wouldnt do JP Doyle missed plenty for both teams.

nathan

It comes as no surprise to me to have Tigers fans telling me that we weren't hard done by. I would as ever be interested to hear what neutrals who watched the game thought if things.

Ozzy3213 wrote:nathan

It comes as no surprise to me to have Tigers fans telling me that we weren't hard done by.  I would as ever be interested to hear what neutrals who watched the game thought if things.

It comes as no surprise to me that you would be on here moaning, it's a common occurrence with anything to do with the Tigers. As i said, JP Doyle missed a fair few things out there for both teams. Not just Irish.

Where have I moaned about Tigers nathan? I've merely stated what happened and bemoaned the inconsistency of refereeing across the season. You have a serious chip on your shoulder fella.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Where have I moaned about Tigers nathan?  I've merely stated what happened and bemoaned the inconsistency of refereeing across the season.  You have a serious chip on your shoulder fella.

What? Why do i have a chip on my shoulder, i've just pretty much said the exact same thing about you as you've said about Tigers fans. I'd also prefer (as per the rules) that you not make personal insults. Debate the post please.

There was also the point where we get a penalty on halfway and and the ref talks to the Tigers captain about the constant infringing. We kick to the corner and from the resulting maul it's another penalty to us in the red zone. We go to the corner again, and same result, another penalty. Having been warned it has to be a yellow.

This part here stunned me. Now regularly even without repeat infringements before this multiple maul pens on the 5M's line is a yellow, every team knows this and when they concede it it's one guy taking it for the team to stop a try. That Doyle didn't yellow a Tigers player here is baffling.

nathan wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Where have I moaned about Tigers nathan?  I've merely stated what happened and bemoaned the inconsistency of refereeing across the season.  You have a serious chip on your shoulder fella.

What? Why do i have a chip on my shoulder, i've just pretty much said the exact same thing about you as you've said about Tigers fans.

This nathan. This is why I say you have a chip on your shoulder...

nathan wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:nathan

It comes as no surprise to me to have Tigers fans telling me that we weren't hard done by.  I would as ever be interested to hear what neutrals who watched the game thought if things.

It comes as no surprise to me that you would be on here moaning, it's a common occurrence with anything to do with the Tigers. As i said, JP Doyle missed a fair few things out there for both teams. Not just Irish.

Me making the point I have made is absolutely nothing to do with it being Tigers. It could have been any team in the circumstances, yet you want to turn it into an 'everyone hates us and moans about us' thing.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

nathan wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Where have I moaned about Tigers nathan?  I've merely stated what happened and bemoaned the inconsistency of refereeing across the season.  You have a serious chip on your shoulder fella.

What? Why do i have a chip on my shoulder, i've just pretty much said the exact same thing about you as you've said about Tigers fans.

This nathan.  This is why I say you have a chip on your shoulder...

nathan wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:nathan

It comes as no surprise to me to have Tigers fans telling me that we weren't hard done by.  I would as ever be interested to hear what neutrals who watched the game thought if things.

It comes as no surprise to me that you would be on here moaning, it's a common occurrence with anything to do with the Tigers. As i said, JP Doyle missed a fair few things out there for both teams. Not just Irish.

Me making the point I have made is absolutely nothing to do with it being Tigers.  It could have been any team in the circumstances, yet you want to turn it into an 'everyone hates us and moans about us' thing.  

"It comes as no surprise to me to have Tigers fans telling me that we weren't hard done by"

You mentioned the Tigers fans which is what i was referring to. I haven't actually said that it shouldn't of been a yellow, i said there were errors against both sides.

Lastly, please could you stop saying i have a chip on my shoulder. Thats attacking me and not my posts.

Grow up mate. My comment of "It comes as no surprise to me to have Tigers fans telling me that we weren't hard done by" was purely referencing Lt's very valid point of "Even the most well meaning fans are exceedingly one-eyed when it comes to refs decisions", and a recognition that Irish and Tigers fans are not likely to agree on how this one was reffed.

i didnt see LT's part so i apologise but please, stop with the insults.

The point that yappysnap referred to also baffled me. Very frustrating!

Also, not at all surprising that Corbsiero would slag off our scrummaging tactics. He isn't exactly a neutral observer in that respect.

It was a close game. Both teams playing well in patches. Both teams getting some decisions and not getting others. One team scored the most tries and the most points. Deserved to win. Had the other team nailed a couple more kicks, or been more clinical in their attack to deliver the killer blow to the defence, they would have deserved to win.

As is so often the way with our funny game.

I might be mistaken here but to me the warning which you are talking about was actually just Doyle explaining to Slater what the penalty was given for (Goneva being offside).

Ozzy3213 wrote:nathan

It comes as no surprise to me to have Tigers fans telling me that we weren't hard done by.  I would as ever be interested to hear what neutrals who watched the game thought if things.

And you go on about Cockerill's excuses and moans...

From what I saw (of the highlights ony) the referee let both sides off the hook on a number of occasions. It evened out (as it usually does). Unless you're LI and it's over the course o a season (apparantly)   

Goneva's try showed why LI are 10th, he went through half the defence on his own.

I understand Ozzy's point about Doyle and the warnings, but he is renowned for not giving cards; so whilst really there should have been a yellow card in that passage of play, both sides would have gone into this game knowing they can transgress more than usual. This does open up the consistency argument, but Doyle is at least consistent in his interpretation of the laws and despite his leniency it does make him one of the better refs around.

Jimpy with all due respect if you only saw the highlights you wouldn't have seen all the penalties given that in most cases would have led to a yellow card for persistent infringement and/or being in the 'red' zone.

HKC unfortunately that isn't LI's experience with Doyle - last season he red carded one of their players for a perfectly legal tackle

Heaf wrote:Jimpy with all due respect if you only saw the highlights you wouldn't have seen all the penalties given that in most cases would have led to a yellow card for persistent infringement and/or being in the 'red' zone.

That's the way the cookie crumbles. Mind you, Tigers would probably have still won with 14 players, at least nobody on the Leicester side was clotheslining opposition players...

I will have to look at the start of the game again - if Deacon was cynical then it should have been yellow - however how many refs would give a YC 20 seconds into a match?

The penalty count in the first half was misleading - as more than half of those conceded by Leicester were for holding on when in attack in the LI half.

Eventually he gave a YC to Waldrom for accumulated offences by the team. Perhaps it could have come earlier, though LI were not saints either.

Finally another ref could well have issued a second YC to sheridan for the head high tackle rather than just a penalty - which would have course meant a sending off.

In the end though if LI wish to know why they lost, they should look in the mirror. Leicester were not very good and were certainly there for the taking - but repeatedly when in good attacking positions, Irish would cough up ball by dropping it, overthrowing at lineout, passing behind the man etc. With just a touch of composure, you would have won - and if so it would have been a well earned victory.

LT I agree with more composure LI would probably have won. I also agree most refs wouldn't give a YC that quickly, although why a cynical play 1m from the line should be treated any differently at the start of a match to any other time is another question. I think most people's issue is how can 3 penalties in a row (after many previous ones for whatever) ending in the red zone still not be a YC - it's the general inconsistency in reffing that I think frustrates most supporters.

PS to digress slightly, what did you think about the head tackle on May in the Eng/Ire match - shouldn't that have been a penalty at least?

There was plenty of infringements that should have resulted in (eventually) a yellow card in all of the 6N matches this weekend. Scotland and Italy were particularly lucky as I lost count of the transgressions at the breakdown that were either ignored or only resulted in a penalty, even after repeated naughtiness in quick sucession.

Heaf wrote:PS to digress slightly, what did you think about the head tackle on May in the Eng/Ire match - shouldn't that have been a penalty at least?

Well, I was watching with a bunch of coaches and refs - consensus being it should have been a penalty try. The welsh ref in the group stated he would have given a YC and a Penalty try.

Yes that's what I thought too as that's the only thing that stopped May scoring, but when it wasn't really mentioned in commentary I wondered if I'd seen it wrong. Probably the focus on England missing a big overlap several times in the first place distracted attention from the incident.

Well, if Care had passed right when there was a 5 on 2 rather than trying to dart under the posts, if Farrell had managed a take and give, rather than trying to straighten the line, if POM had not clotheslined May and finally if May had not had the ball dislodged.

any one of those changing would have seen an early try and posiibly a very different match. English players at fault for 3 of the 4 ifs - so only ourselves to blame really. At least we ended up with a classic confrontation.

London Irish did not take their opportunities. Tigers are a bit fortunate that their opposition yet again showed a lack of composure with the game up for grabs for the 3rd time in a row. Surely their luck will run out eventually.

We are not playing well, and have been lucky the last 3 matches have been against 3 of the 4 bottom teams.

Next week we complete the quartet by travelling to Newcastle. Despite 3 of the 4 matches being away - not sure we could have had a kinder draw.

LondonTiger wrote:I will have to look at the start of the game again - if Deacon was cynical then it should have been yellow - however how many refs would give a YC 20 seconds into a match?

The penalty count in the first half was misleading - as more than half of those conceded by Leicester were for holding on when in attack in the LI half.

Eventually he gave a YC to Waldrom for accumulated offences by the team. Perhaps it could have come earlier, though LI were not saints either.

Finally another ref could well have issued a second YC to sheridan for the head high tackle rather than just a penalty - which would have course meant a sending off.

In the end though if LI wish to know why they lost, they should look in the mirror. Leicester were not very good and were certainly there for the taking - but repeatedly when in good attacking positions, Irish would cough up ball by dropping it, overthrowing at lineout, passing behind the man etc. With just a touch of composure, you would have won - and if so it would have been a well earned victory.

I don't think anywhere on here anyone has blamed the referee for our defeat. We are wll aware that if we had kicked our goals and picked the ball up at the end, we would have won the game. Our accuracy was nowhere near where it has been the past two weeks, and certainly Brian Smith recognised that in his post match comments. We have lots to work on, and it will take time, we all accept that.

In relation to what penalties were for and whether others could have been given against both teams, of course they could, that is the case in any game. Yes there was a high tackle from Sheridan, but there was also a tackle around the neck of an Irish player as well. Likewise Hawkins no arms shoulder barge on Sinclair whish resulted in a penalty 'could' have been a yellow (especially had he been a Pacific Islander as I am long since convinced that referees deal with them over harshly in the those circumstances due to pre-conceptions). All of those are things that nobody is going to agree on.

My initial point about the volume of penalties, and repeated 'red zone' infringements I believe is valid. I wouldn't expect Leicester fans to agree, we are all one eyed when it comes to our own teams.

Look, the game is done and the record books will show that we came up short, and I can live with that. I would just like to see some consitency from officials and for them to be of a high standard, and my belief is that at present we have neither of those things in the AP. Extended TMO powers were supposed to assist in getting decisions right, but across the board I think these have caused as many arguments as they have solved. The answer? I don't know, but I do want to see the game developing and that includes the officials.

beshocked wrote:London Irish did not take their opportunities. Tigers are a bit fortunate  that their opposition yet again showed a lack of composure with the game up for grabs for the 3rd time in a row. Surely their luck will run out eventually.

So who's to blame? Tigers for not playing well, or the opposition not taking their opportunities? You make your own luck sometimes - Tigers have some good players to return soon, their play should improve.

Jimpy I would say it's a bit of both. I wouldn't say the ref won this game for Leicester though. Just a lack of composure by Irish. You acknowledge Leicester didn't play well fair enough - again you just about scraped across the line.

Against Saracens, London Irish took absolutely every opportunity, against Leicester they did not. These things happen. Leicester and London Irish are where they are because one is better at turning opportunity into points than the other.

Londontiger fair play for acknowledging that.



Exeter are another side that has shown a lack of composure this season. Been so close to a few good wins but have come up short. Against Saracens, they started like a freight train but couldn't handle the Saracens pack as the game wore on.

Saracens like Leicester are going through a pretty rough patch of form but yet again forward power was the difference. When the passes aren't sticking at least they can mostly rely on the set piece for a decent platform.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy I would say it's a bit of both. I wouldn't say the ref won this game for Leicester though. Just a lack of composure by Irish. You acknowledge Leicester didn't play well fair enough - again you just about scraped across the line.

Against Saracens, London Irish took absolutely every opportunity, against Leicester they did not. These things happen. Leicester and London Irish are where they are because one is better at turning opportunity into points than the other.

Londontiger fair play for acknowledging that.



Exeter are another side that has shown a lack of composure this season. Been so close to a few good wins but have come up short. Against Saracens, they started like a freight train but couldn't handle the Saracens pack as the game wore on.

Saracens like Leicester are going through a pretty rough patch of form but yet again forward power was the difference. When the passes aren't sticking at least they can mostly rely on the set piece for a decent platform.

Their league positions suggest that form isn't an issue - the quality of their game needs to improve though.

Form is an issue. Passes aren't sticking. Opportunities are squandered. Tackling has been sloppy. I refer to both Saracens and Leicester though especially Saracens.

Both sides will face stronger sides. - Saracens face Bath away - now. Unfortunately I see a loss there.

Whose quality of game needs to improve?

If Leicester didn't have Goneva.....

Manu may be on the bench against Falcons

beshocked wrote:Form is an issue. Passes aren't sticking. Opportunities are squandered. Tackling has been sloppy. I refer to both Saracens and Leicester though especially Saracens.

Both sides will face stronger sides. - Saracens face Bath away - now. Unfortunately I see a loss there.

Interesting that you're already predicting a loss beshocked. You're normally very confident against us and your record against us over the last few seasons has been very good. 

It's going to be a hell of a big game for both sides - both teams have a bit to prove by the sounds of it

LondonTiger wrote:Manu may be on the bench against Falcons

Bloody would be wouldnt he....  

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:Form is an issue. Passes aren't sticking. Opportunities are squandered. Tackling has been sloppy. I refer to both Saracens and Leicester though especially Saracens.

Both sides will face stronger sides. - Saracens face Bath away - now. Unfortunately I see a loss there.

Interesting that you're already predicting a loss beshocked. You're normally very confident against us and your record against us over the last few seasons has been very good. 

It's going to be a hell of a big game for both sides - both teams have a bit to prove by the sounds of it

I am normally very confident but Bath have improved considerably this season - you're at home, we're not in great form, we'll be missing the likes of Billy and Owen too.

Against Exeter we relied on forward dominance, can't say the same vs Bath. I like to think we can win but we'll definitely be the underdogs.

beshocked wrote:

Bathite wrote:

beshocked wrote:Form is an issue. Passes aren't sticking. Opportunities are squandered. Tackling has been sloppy. I refer to both Saracens and Leicester though especially Saracens.

Both sides will face stronger sides. - Saracens face Bath away - now. Unfortunately I see a loss there.

Interesting that you're already predicting a loss beshocked. You're normally very confident against us and your record against us over the last few seasons has been very good. 

It's going to be a hell of a big game for both sides - both teams have a bit to prove by the sounds of it

I am normally very confident but Bath have improved considerably this season - you're at home, we're not in great form, we'll be missing the likes of Billy and Owen too.

Against Exeter we relied on forward dominance, can't say the same vs Bath. I like to think we can win but we'll definitely be the underdogs.

Haha! Master of the PR, placing yourself as underdog. You're at the top of the table, only lost one game, beat us convincingly at home. Funny how all season you've doubted areas of our game, back row not good enough, 9 a weakness etc, but now you're scared you might lose! A compliment to how far we've come I guess. I'm glad you've paid attention! We'll of course be without several key players as well, with Wilson, Attwood and Ford away with England and with Watson and Garvey picking up injuries, they might be touch and go

Lost two games. One of them recently which was a very poor performance at home vs London Irish. After that the confidence has gone down significantly.

Not top of the table either. That's Saints.

I expect you'll have Wilson,Attwood, Ford and James that will significantly make you a tougher prospect.

I still think player for player Sarries are stronger but I feel that recent form and home advantage see Bath start as favourites.

9 is not a weakness with Stringer there.

It will be a stronger Bath side than the one that faced Wasps.

James will probably be back, but I don't know about Ford, Attwood, Wilson - how do you know that? Would love to see confirmation of that

We'd be stronger if those guys are back, but we are looking likely to lose Garvey - our best player of the season and Watson - one of our best backs for the Sarries game, which would be 2 huge losses.

Be interesting to see what the bookies say on favourites for the game, as I'm not sure we'd have the edge to be honest.

ps. 'At the top of the table' isn't the same as 'top of the table' - escpecially given that there's only 1 point in it!