Is nepotism rife in the England camp?

First topic message reminder :

Trying to keep club allegiance apart, is there not a mild stench of the unjust wafting from the well heeled, manicured gardens of Pennyhill Park?

Could it be argued that Flood fell on his own sword having seen the Lancastrian graffiti daubed on the walls of the English HQ?
Cipriani, a forgotten sinner never to be redeemed.
And most astonishingly, Burns, majestic in Argentina, left on the wasteland of "poor club form", albeit behind a woeful pack that would consign Dan Carter to a nobody in world rugby.

Up pop 2 Daddy's boys, undoubtedly not without merit, but do they really deserve their selection?

Objectively, what do we really think?

Non English members, I encourage you to post as well, as you, for the most part should have the most unbiased view.

Farrell, still the man for the job?

Yes Miss

gregortree wrote:Yes Miss

Sarries fan perchance?

he was really good yesterday- why would he need to be a sarries fan?

I think you need to adjust your dosage slightly Missey

Farrell is improving with the rest of the team.

His creativity is starting to show, and having Care alongside is taking the pressure off as Care is playing outstandingly....like the old French playmaking SH's.

As the team develop so will his understanding of when to take opertunities etc...don't forget he's only 21 or 22.

He does need to stamp out the little impetuous moments...though I must admit I like his aggression...it keeps the opposition on their toes.

The biggest concern for me with Farrell is his kicking. He's missing far too many for my liking and this needs to be sorted out VERY quickly as that can cost games.

mystiroakey wrote:he was really good yesterday- why would he need to be a sarries fan?

I think you need to adjust your dosage slightly Missey

On what planet was he good? He made Wilson look fleet of foot and butchered at least 4 clear overlaps. Just not good enough at this level. I'll definitely have what you're drinking oakey!

He had a good game and ran the show.. not amazing but enough to win us the game.. credit to the lad.

36 on the other hand- I cant wait for Manu to come back

mystiroakey wrote:He had a good game and ran the show.. not amazing but enough to win us the game.. credit to the lad.

36 on the other hand- I cant wait for Manu to come back

What????????????????????????????????????????????

36, although not error free, takes the ball in to a lot of contact presenting well for Care to give quick ball and keep the tempo up, quality centre play. In one sequence of 20 phases, he was involved in 11, outstanding. Yes, he knocked on once, but that was from a low, badly aimed, drilled pass from Farrell. Farrell is blunting this England attack, no doubt. He's solid enough, but "solid" won't win much.

36 is rubbish - When manu comes back it will be like having an extra two players- and I cant wait.

He is adding nothing and really stunting our creativity.

However we are still coming on ten fold in that department- Farrel is really coming along. A potential world class performer. 36 is not up to this level

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

36, although not error free, takes the ball in to a lot of contact presenting well for Care to give quick ball and keep the tempo up, quality centre play. In one sequence of 20 phases, he was involved in 11, outstanding. Yes, he knocked on once, but that was from a low, badly aimed, drilled pass from Farrell. Farrell is blunting this England attack, no doubt. He's solid enough, but "solid" won't win much.

I thought that 36 had a great game yesterday and really asked questions of the Irish defence. That said, its one of the first times I have seen him play that well. Manu and Burrell are the way forward for England's centres.

I also have been saying for a while that Farrell lacks that creativity to be a top quality 10 but at such a young age he will learn that with time. Having Danny Care playing brilliantly has taken the pressure off Farrell somewhat and its him that is lining up the England back line. They work very well together I feel.

36 even at his best cant line break. its wriglle and fall to the ground.. to his saving grace he didnt get turned over that much yesterday

just wait and see the difference when manu comes back. 

It will take England up a whole level with just that one player

Sorry but I have to wade in on the Farell 36 thing...

Farell butchered 2 dead certs for tries, and yes the knock on over the line was a third that couldve been finished easily had he distributed instead of not make any decision. He does however execute the gameplan well and doesn't go off script. His error count with the boot in all aspects is quite low, he doesn't make try conceding mistakes ala Sexton and Preistland.

36 had a decent game yesterday, but he is hampered by a 10 who is still learning the ropes, and a not so dominant pack, look at Roberts for Wales and lions, thrives on front foot ball with 10's who are good distributers, he isn't a great player but he's a good weapon to have going forward. 36 is not a crash ball guy, but does it decently, with average posession and an average distributer.

I have played 12 a lot and I tell you that a 10 who is a serious line threat helps your job so much more than a guy like Farell who really has to concentrate on his passing, that extra few yards you get from the defenders, that extra yard a 10 who takes the ball forward before passing both add up to an effective crash.

Neither are world class, but there are better 10 options in our league, Burns being 1 of them and Flood the other, neither are as consistent with the boot, but consistency only takes you so far, if you want the trophies you need x factor, and Farell is a few years from that

farrel has all facets to has game and is a great passer I think people are blind when they watch him. and to say 36 is good but only hampered by farrel- oh my god. lol

its completely the other way round. But anyway- fact is Farrel has the shirt - 36 is only a fill in. So THANK GOD the whole of the England set up agrees#(not just a couple of arm chair fans whining) and that is the way it is. When Manu comes back- and hopefully before the real test this year v NZ- there is going to be fireworks

Mysti , im not sure 36 is a fill in.

I think when all are fit it'll be
10 Farrell
12 36
13 Manu

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

gregortree wrote:Yes Miss

Sarries fan perchance?

Look me up... Glaws and Burns. But Farrell is in the best form for England right now. Ford...I'd like to see get a go but early days for the youngster yet.

Burell and May are shining. I cant abide taking them off. They are really attacking. May is great at switching stuff up and I really like Burrel as well.

36 has to go IMO.

We have been expansive last few games- and these backs are one of the reason

36 is just a get the ball wriggle- fall over -reload. No expansion- He has to be the fall guy

A fair assessment there fingers, although I think you're a bit negative about 36. Considering where he's getting the ball I think he's doing well and has the potential to become world class. A confident Burns along side 36 could be a great axis.

Burns is playing rubbish- so how can you even suggest it.

Ciprani maybe!!

BUt Burns!!

mystiroakey wrote:Burns is playing rubbish- so how can you even suggest it.

Ciprani maybe!!

BUt Burns!!

Is why I said Farrell. Go back through my thread with Miss.

sorry my comment was directed at miss only.

Is miss the new ladyboy account?

Criticising 36's creativity and then calling for a Burrell/Tuilagi centre partnership is an odd one. I agree Tuilagi would take England to another level, but not at 36's expense.

He's not really nailed one big performance yet, but he's growing into it, and he's physically very good. Was a defensive warrior yesterday and is starting to pass more effectively.

mystiroakey wrote:farrel has all facets to has game and is a great passer I think people are blind when they watch him. and to say 36 is good but only hampered by farrel- oh my god. lol

its completely the other way round. But anyway- fact is Farrel has the shirt - 36 is only a fill in. So THANK GOD the whole of the England set up agrees#(not just a couple of arm chair fans whining) and that is the way it is. When Manu comes back- and hopefully before the real test this year v NZ- there is going to be fireworks

Glad there is some one else who saw how poor Twelvetrees was. I was watching it with mates and we commented time and again how awful he was.

Missed tackles, getting turned over, poor passes and knock ons. He is supposedly meant to be a creative deity yet again and again he proves this is not the case.

Twelvetrees is not meant to be in the team for defence.

Like you mystiroakey I would like to see Burrell and Tuilagi - not the most creative but neither is Twelvetrees and it least they would add some more running threat and run better lines.

People like to blame Farrell time and again - yes he did miss an overlap or two but for example May should have scored regardless. People love to focus on his mistakes yet he doesn't do as many as people like to think.

Farrell is a big tackler for a 10 and I remember him winning at least one penalty for England.

Farrell has given away no chargedown tries or intercepts in his international career and he rarely he misses touch (particularly with a penalty)/messing up the kick off. In comparison Sexton's poor kick off led to England's try.

12T did play better this time - particularly in defence, in a very tight and attritional game.

But I'm continually told he's in for his superior passing, kicking and this thing called playmaking everyone talks about. Quite a lot of games in and I haven't seen much of it yet. Once again the playmakers were Care and Brown. He is improving in the one thing Barritt excels in - defence. Stuck between OF and Burrell he's got a great opportunity to provide some more guile to the attack.

Think Twelvetrees is getting too much stick here. The midfield is looking pretty good to me and we're actually seeing more of the backs. Tuilagi will come back in once fit as he's on another level to most others let alone English options but until then I'm pretty happy with 12 and 13. If not Twelvetrees then who is the passing creative centre people would choose?

Got to say Beshocked i agree with your view on Twelvetrees defensively.

Everytime he goes for a one on one tackle i cringe, hes woeful.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think Twelvetrees is getting too much stick here. The midfield is looking pretty good to me and we're actually seeing more of the backs. Tuilagi will come back in once fit as he's on another level to most others let alone English options but until then I'm pretty happy with 12 and 13. If not Twelvetrees then who is the passing creative centre people would choose?

do we need it with care, brown and may- they are the creative ones switching play.

its all about getting through the tackles- manu in that position well just tear down more territory and hold on to the ball better then get it ourt to care who will find brown running through. bang- try after try after try

barney mcgrew did it how long does Twelvetrees get to prove that? He's meant to be in the team for those aspects you say.

no 7 & 1/2 the stick is completely warranted. If you are picked to a specific thing and you don't.... Might as well pick Barritt who is the better defender if defence is all that matters.

I have criticised Eastmond for being too small etc but I would rather see him play for England than Twelvetrees at 12.

Eastmond might not live up to the hype but neither has Twelvetrees.

By the way it wasn't just me criticising Twelvetrees, my mates were saying how poor Twelvetrees was - I wasn't even his biggest critic. I started watching him more closely after that. We made jokes - Billy Twelvetrees makes another mistake....

mysti, yes we do need a creative centre. Burrell and Tuilagi may work but I think a passer next to either of them is better.

beshocked, he was about a 7 out of 10 at the weekend. Not electric but decent enough. I wouldn't mind a look at Eastmond in the (near) future but at present I think this midfield combo is working nicely.

no 7 &1/2 not sure how you came up for that rating for Twelvetrees.

Glad you agree geordiefalcon. I am glad it's not just me who is a lone voice this time round.

Lone voice.

Is my Voice unheard??

yes

Good defense decent distribution, nice steps, great take from a restart in the 2nd half. Temper that by the fact he missed a 1 on 1 vs BOD (not the 1st time someone has missed one) and the knock on in the 1st half.

My judgement is out on Twelvetrees...ill be hoest.

And his defence concerns me. I really dont think its half as good as people on here are making it out to be.

However things are improving in the offensive aspects, so lets give him a few more games to see if hes settling in now.

I do think Eastmond needs to be looked at aswell.

And i have to be honest a midfield of
10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi

Whilst offering huge power and running, is possibly missing that little bit of guile.

gregortree wrote:yes

the fact you answered tells me it cant be

mystiroakey I am saying I am not a lone voice this time round - we both agree that Twelvetrees was poor.

no 7 & 1/2 fair enough. we'll have to agree to disagree.

geordiefalcon - not much guile agreed but we hardly have guile at the moment. Would rather go for hard hitting power and running threat to be honest than what we have at the moment.

Burrell runs really good lines - something you can't accuse Twelvetrees of.

wouldn't mind a midfield of Tuilagi and Burrell TBH. As mentioned Burrell runs great lines, while I feel Tuilagi's offloading game is underrated, if Burrell can come off his shoulder it could work very nicely indeed. People see a couple of strong runners in the centres and think "oh dear, the return of Noon and Tindall" but Burrell and Tuilagi are both more than that.

Having said that, I didn't think Twelvetrees had a bad game vs Ireland. I though he was solid and did most things pretty well, I'd give him a solid 6/10. My gripe is like GF that he's been brought in to supply superior distribution skills and we've seen very little of that so far. I'm not sure he's doing much more than Baritt was doing before him TBH.

I have said before that I would like to see Burrell and Manu play together when he is back fit. The guile doesn't seem to be there anyway, though I am not as down on 36 some others, his tackling is a worry. I actually would love to see a combo of

10 Ford
12 Burrell
13 Manu

given a run out. I am not suggesting that they should start together immediately but would be good to see them have an opportunity at some point.

Yes its great having Burrell running the lines we all praised Ashton for doing.

He has played well and in my opinion it would be unfair to drop him.

That leaves two questions for me:

1) How is Eastmond really playing for Bath. Is he showing those creative playmaking skills we are looking for in our 12? Are those performances any better than Twelvetrees? And Eastmond coping with the physicality of that position?

2) Are we assuming Tuilagi will just walk straight back in to the team?

"2) Are we assuming Tuilagi will just walk straight back in to the team?"


YES

Why?

MANU is Superman..

he has powers.

Its just interesting that everyone is just putting him straight in the team...and its a case of who partners him.

Im not putting manu down...im merely suggesting there are other options...

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly
would offer a nice balance for example.

well i think he along brown is one of the few players we have that is just that good..

so as long as he is fit- he has to either start of come on as a sub first game back. He is a player worthy of moulding a team around.

He has the star quality..

The problem is is that with Farrell at 10 any centre combo are going to look ordinary, there's your problem. With Burns, Flood or Cips for that matter at FH any combinbation of Burrell, 36, Barritt or Manu will look a lot better.

Complete tosh Miss.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Complete tosh Miss.

Well argued 7, well done!

Ok Miss,

I think when Farrell came into the team he showed no evidence of creative ability etc and was chosen for apparent strong mindedness and kicking.

Baring in mind he is only 21 or 22 he is progressing (as the team is) and has shown strong evidence of creative ability and controlling the game...he started the play that ended with Burrells try v France with some great skill setting Vunipola away etc that seems to have been forgotten...

With Danny Care there now, that has taken a little bit of the pressure off him as the sole playmaker with Care playing more like the French 9's do.....the playmaker.

Farrell also offers a little bit of aggression and defence aswell that keep teams honest. They dont like facing him...he keeps them on their toes...and you need that in rugby. Im not advocaating late tackles etc...but i like players who are feisty.

He does need to make sure he hits his kicks and yes is far from the finished article. However he will learn to take the overlaps etc.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Complete tosh Miss.

Well argued 7, well done!

Your argument is that Burns played well last season so we're about level.