Manu Tuilagi and Englands Midfield

First topic message reminder :

Been having a discussion about Manu on another thread and i thought id open it up to everyone to see your opinons?

It seems to me that almost 100% on here are simply assuming Manu will walk back in to the England team.

Is Manu simply that good that he can do that, over those currently in the midfield? Is he Englands superstar player that they cant do without?

What about his competition? He has the power game..but what if Elliott Daly was to move back permanently to 13?

Many are advocating a midfield of

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
It has huge power...but possibly missing a little guile?

Im merely putting out there...might the following have more balance?

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly (once hes back playing permanently at 13)

beshocked wrote:PSW do you think the massive debate is just on the internet? I am sure there are plenty of England fans with doubts over 36 that aren't on 606v2.

fa0019 what does Ford being a more secure and comfortable 10 mean?

Portnoy's complaint 36 had plenty of opportunities to gel with Manu at Leicester. Allen kept him out of the Leicester team leaving him to grow frustated and leave.

Perhaps Allen could emerge as the saviour at 12?

If you play 2 bruisers in midfield with no secondary option than it puts more pressure on the 10. Defences know he will take the ball every time... unlike if you have a second receiver. Pressure is greater.

Ford is a more comfortable 10 than Farrell IMO. He has more all around skills and good composure. He can run a backline both with the ball in hand and with the boot. Farrell is the bigger lump in defence and a decent place kicker.

Put Farrell with 2 bruisers and I think it would be a mistake or at least mean that Ford would start to look the better alternative.

fa0019 more comfortable 10? That's why one has over 20 caps for England, been on a Lions tour. I would say Farrell has shown himself to be comfortable at international level. Ford - jury is still out at this level.

When Ford proves himself at international level then you can compare them.

When you have a 10 who is over 15 st and 6,2 it's a little easier for him to soak up the pressure, plus he can dish a bit back himself.

It makes it easier for your team mates because they know defensively you'll pull your weight.

The thing is you underrate Farrell,Burrell and Manu. Making out as if all three are just one dimensional boshers.

Burrell is underrated and runs great lines. Manu showed against NZ the potential there is for him to be a more well rounded 13.

Burrell certainly isn't just the bosh player anymore (if he ever was). Then again nor was Barritt before he came to these shores and England. I'm sure we'll work on it and strip Burrell of any actual skill. It's what we do.

But Tuilagi doesn't just walk back in. The same way Foden won't walk back in. He'll have to wait for his chance (which Lancaster may or may not give him before injuries to others).

Remember that I said

Beyond that it's all about the blending of partnerships

For me Ford/Burrell/Manu has to be tested at some time before the end of the AIs.

Ford to me adds much greater potency and creativity to the mix than Farrell.

If Farrell plays, I'd rather not have Burrell/Manu outside him. I'd go for 36/Manu.

Mind you, Manu has to demonstrate both form and fitness before then.

HammerofThunor

Foden won't walk back in because Brown is playing really well. 36 is not, Tuilagi is a far superior player, of course Manu should have to show good form at club level (something that 36 should have needed to do but didn't).

Do you really want England to stick with 2 12s in the centres? I want to see what Burrell can do when partnered with Manu. We have to trust that players will improve their skills with experience.

Manu is only 22 as is Farrell.

Will it be the way lancaster wants to go though? He's said in the past he wants a ball player at 12. Does Burrell fulfil this? He's demonstarted this much less in the premiership and at international level than twelvetrees even though people have the hatchets out for him. Twelvetrees has been put up at first receiver quite a lot in the recent games can Burrell fulfil this role? He's played well but mainly by his good running lines and breaking through the defence not through bringing others into the game.

It’s early days yet, but there’s a world cup a-coming. So far we have a good pack with paper thin depth. Most teams would suffer if they lost 2/3rds of their top class FR – and we’re one of them. Especially as our back up hooker – isn’t a hooker. We’re fortunate at no 8, and ok at SR, but I have the same fears for the flanks. We’ve lost our 1st choice props – what if we lost our 1st choice flankers.

Then in the backs we’ve brought in new players who really don’t look out of place – but is that what we aspire to? Our new wingers like dropping the ball, albeit in different parts of the field. We got away with it in 1 match with May not finishing. But who’s to say Nowell won’t drop a high ball in our 22 with North bearing down on him. The truth is we have a back line which is either full of promise or just average, depending on your levels of optimism. And a RWC in a year and a half. Some of us are looking to win it; some would be relieved just to get into the knock-out stages.

To do? Well OF has to concentrate a bit more on looking for where the space is on attack. And remember he was brought in for his goal kicking. 12T has to routinely do the things he was brought in for or forever become just another also ran. Manu has to stop getting injured. And Yarde and Wade have to do what Manu has to do. Care and Brown can do what the hell they like.

With 12T currently just ok – Stewie has to try a Burrell/Manu at some stage.

With so many question marks, and so many equally average options, we've left it too late for ’15. We will have to thank Stewie and shoot for the next one.

Anyway, we’ll still beat the Welsh.

no 7 &1/2 who would you say has been more effective 12 in the AP?

Breaking through the defence and running good lines is incredibly important. I would hardly call Brown a playmaking full back but he's very effective.

I guess overall my point is that we shouldn't just be looking at who's the best or even 2nd best in the premiership. We should be looking at skill set and how to bring out the best in the most people. Is Burrell impressing now because of the 9, 10, 12 in the team. Would Burrell and Tuilagi work brilliantly together (you know I have my doubts) or would we fail to get anywhere near the best out of both of them. Will 1 badly flounder? Goode was brought into the team as Lancaster thought he needed those skills which were lacking in midfield, which meant we didn't see the best out of Brown. You've got to think of knock on effects on the rest.

I don't have a major problem in trying Burrell/Tuilagi together but I think the skill set together will mean we return a much more forward orientated game plan.

To answer your question beshocked Burrell has looked the in form 12 for much of the season.

To offer another example, Vunipola is out now, the form 8 in the premiership is Easter (think most people would agree?), but i think England really need a big ball carrier here so should we pick a player who's not as in form for whatever reason. Personally Morgan is the right choice for me, followed by Dickinson. Easter would be well down the list as i don't think him Wood and Robshaw would work together as effectively as the other options.

Who plays first choice 13 for Saints? Just wondering if they have a pair of "boshers" or is the 13 the playmaker there

no 7 & 1/2 I would say he is impressing because he is an in form player doing what he does well. I think it would be harsh to say he's performing well because of the players surrounding him. It's not 36 who telepathically told Burrell to support Billy and Care when he scored his tries for example.

Is Easter really the form no 8 in the Premiership? I would much prefer Ewers,Billy or Dickinson personally. Billy in worse form than Easter? Really?

Let's look at another team - France they have one creative player and one bosher - do you think that is working? I don't. I don't think there is necessarily a fixed formula.

Nonu and Smith, Darcy and BOD worked because they had great synergy - being at the same club helped significantly in my opinion. Not necessarily because they are a contrast.

I'm a fan of Twelvetrees, people are comparing him to Barritt but 36 has shown far more IMO.

When he carries he always seems to make ground, Barritt pretty much would be stopped on the gainline every time. His passing looks fluid and he has put the likes of May into space.

I reckon he is worth persevering with, I like the idea of Burrell/Manu, but do worry it just invites a blitz defence with a limited running threat from 10 (and yes I do realise Farrell is improving there)

beshocked, I was talking about with Vunipola out so discounting him. Think a lot of people would think Easter is the form 8 yes. Well it's just my opinion I would prefer to see some sort of subtlety in midfield whether it be Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Daly or whoever. Burrell and Tuilagi have great qualities but together I just doubt it.

Pisi plays outside Burrell at Saints at the moment.

Bambam he drops the ball more and misses more tackles than Barritt. Has he made a line break yet in the 6 nations? Passes fluid? Throwing the ball at people's knees?

The limited running threat as you call him has two more line breaks than 36 in the 6 nations.

no 7 & 1/2 Didn't know Pisi was a creative genius.

Well I distinctly remember Farrell throwing one at Twelvetrees' knees against Ireland, but I wouldn't call that characteristic either. 

Barritt offered nothing (zilch) with ball in hand, 36 has at least offered the option of trucking it up and going forwards, with a good reset and letting the play flow. He hasn't been great, but I would take him over Barritt any day

As I said, I'm open to a Burrell/Manu combo, but until it's seen against a top side I will be worried that we will be too predictable

He's not a bosher though is he beshocked.

If they picked players solely on form they not only would havce to make the selections after the game but also could end up with 15 scum halves. Selections should partly be driven by players who can fulfil specific roles
Most people supported Ashton being dropped depsite him being on fire at club level because englands system does no support his play, instead we have Nowell whos making as many errors and is about as threatening as a tappicoa pudding ...but can tackle and deal with the high ball. The way england play hes the better option.
Same goes for 12. England want a 10/12 not Jamie Noon. They also need to spend more than a handfull of games playing one style before ditching it just because someone hasnt had a go, same for combinations. The Twelvetrees Tuillagi pairing (which was touted even before Lancaster took charge)) hasnt even been tried out yet and already theres talk of "needing to try other options".

BamBam wrote:Well I distinctly remember Farrell throwing one at Twelvetrees' knees against Ireland, but I wouldn't call that characteristic either. 

Barritt offered nothing (zilch) with ball in hand, 36 has at least offered the option of trucking it up and going forwards, with a good reset and letting the play flow. He hasn't been great, but I would take him over Barritt any day

As I said, I'm open to a Burrell/Manu combo, but until it's seen against a top side I will be worried that we will be too predictable

That wasn't at his knees at all. The replay clearly showed there was no excuse for fumbling it. It was a tiny bit low and a tiny bit in front of him but that was it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I guess overall my point is that we shouldn't just be looking at who's the best or even 2nd best in the premiership. We should be looking at skill set and how to bring out the best in the most people. Is Burrell impressing now because of the 9, 10, 12 in the team. Would Burrell and Tuilagi work brilliantly together (you know I have my doubts) or would we fail to get anywhere near the best out of both of them. Will 1 badly flounder? Goode was brought into the team as Lancaster thought he needed those skills which were lacking in midfield, which meant we didn't see the best out of Brown. You've got to think of knock on effects on the rest.

I don't have a major problem in trying Burrell/Tuilagi together but I think the skill set together will mean we return a much more forward orientated game plan.

burell's try and almost try against france and scotland were not ball he received from 36. so i dont see how 36 should get any credit at all for his first-receiver/distribution role in terms of creating scores.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To offer another example, Vunipola is out now, the form 8 in the premiership is Easter (think most people would agree?), but i think England really need a big ball carrier here so should we pick a player who's not as in form for whatever reason. Personally Morgan is the right choice for me, followed by Dickinson. Easter would be well down the list as i don't think him Wood and Robshaw would work together as effectively as the other options.

bad example. Ester is 35 and having a purple patch at the end of his career (and i'm biased for obvious reasons). Burrell is 26 and improving steadily.

you pick on a combination of form, potential and fit for the team/gameplan. Burrell ticks all 3 of those boxes for me at 12. Especially with how he has stepped up in his first 3 6N matches.

Fair enough. I think most people on here want the Burrell and Tuilagi combo. I think both of their form would suffer and we wouldn't see as much of our back 3. I'm hope if they do get picked they work well together.

 

with both burrell and manu at 12 and 13, now all we really need is for farrell to vary his running and passing and master the 3 man-miss-wide pass like Quade Cooper for england to have a really very dangerous attack.

especially when yarde is back on the wing.

please please Owen continue to work on your passing variety and taking and giving the ball flat....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:If they picked players solely on form they not only would havce to make the selections after the game but also could end up with 15 scum halves. Selections should partly be driven by players who can fulfil specific roles
Most people supported Ashton being dropped depsite him being on fire at club level because englands system does no support his play, instead we have Nowell whos making as many errors and is about as threatening as a tappicoa pudding ...but can tackle and deal with the high ball. The way england play hes the better option.
Same goes for 12. England want a 10/12 not Jamie Noon. They also need to spend more than a handfull of games playing one style before ditching it just because someone hasnt had a go, same for combinations. The Twelvetrees Tuillagi pairing (which was touted even before Lancaster took charge))  hasnt even been tried out yet and already theres talk of "needing to try other options".

Yeah, but he deals with it to the floor too often. Well he's going to get the high ball and North at roughly the same time next week.

quinsforever wrote: 

with both burrell and manu at 12 and 13, now all we really need is for farrell to vary his running and passing and master the 3 man-miss-wide pass like Quade Cooper for england to have a really very dangerous attack.

especially when yarde is back on the wing.

please please Owen continue to work on your passing variety and taking and giving the ball flat....

I do remember Farrell putting Parling in with a quality wide ball against someone, Scotland maybe? More of that please!

I would like to see a combo of Ford, Burrell and Manu as well. Burrell has been creative enough for Saints this season who are top and has shown he is good enough to play at this level. Manu is Manu, if fit he has the ability to open up any team in the world.

Now Ford, we don't know if he can do it at this level or not but he has to be given a chance. The one thing Ford has is that extra turn of pace to go through that Farrell just doesn't have. Obviously, it requires a lot more than that to be a top 10 and he will have to improve his kicking off the ground (his kicking from hand is one of his strongest attributes) but that extra pace will keep defences on their heels and make it a lot more difficult for other teams to defend against us.

Beshocked, again I am not suggesting that Ford comes in and takes over Farrell's place now, he has to prove himself and, as i said, improve his goal kicking, but he has to be given a chance and I would like to see that chance given with a midfield containing those 2.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Well I distinctly remember Farrell throwing one at Twelvetrees' knees against Ireland, but I wouldn't call that characteristic either. 

Barritt offered nothing (zilch) with ball in hand, 36 has at least offered the option of trucking it up and going forwards, with a good reset and letting the play flow. He hasn't been great, but I would take him over Barritt any day

As I said, I'm open to a Burrell/Manu combo, but until it's seen against a top side I will be worried that we will be too predictable

That wasn't at his knees at all. The replay clearly showed there was no excuse for fumbling it.  It was a tiny bit low and a tiny bit in front of him but that was it.

Well said top hat. I remember seeing the pass in real time and then a replay. The pass by Farrell was fine.

Compare that to Twelvetrees throwing the ball at Billy.V's knees vs France.

killer 938 why should it just be Ford who gets to play with Burrell-Tuilagi? I want to see Farrell get an opportunity to play with those two. I don't think it would be as much as a car crash as some of you seem to think.

What about Burgess   

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:What about Burgess   

At this stage I think it's a simple case of not even thinking about Burgess. He's not played the game (or likely to until the end if the year) and he doesn't have a position.

I personally think he lacks the gas and distribution for centre.

Beshocked, sorry, maybe I didn't explain what i meant very clearly, I didn't mean just Ford get a go with them, I want to see Farrell play with Burrell and Manu ahead of the world cup. I just meant that if and when Ford gets a go, I would like to see him playing with those 2.

I would like to see the following tried.
Ford, Burrell, Manu
Ford, Farrell, Burrell

I have always thought Farrell is abetter 12 than 10.

Exiledinborders wrote:I would like to see the following tried.
Ford, Burrell, Manu
Ford, Farrell, Burrell

I have always thought Farrell is abetter 12 than 10.

You want Farrell at 12 based on what? He's not quick enough for 12, he's not a speedy 10 as it is. He's not much of a linebreaker.

Farrell at centre hasn't been that effective for Sarries and didn't really work in his brief cameo for England. What makes you think it will ever be a long term answer?

Oh and btw playing there in England U20s means very little.

True, I mean playing at 12 for U20 doesn't really count as a lot of these guys have played in sorts of positions in the handful of years they've been playing. Farrell was shifted to the centre at U20 because Ford was a better 10 but Farrell was still a better 12 than the next in line (similar with Lawes playing 6 when Gaskell and Kitchener were at lock).

You can't/shouldn't do that at full level so Farrell should just be dropped to the bench (if Ford is selected).

HammerofThunor wrote:True, I mean playing at 12 for U20 doesn't really count as a lot of these guys have played in sorts of positions in the handful of years they've been playing.  Farrell was shifted to the centre at U20 because Ford was a better 10 but Farrell was still a better 12 than the next in line (similar with Lawes playing 6 when Gaskell and Kitchener were at lock).

You can't/shouldn't do that at full level so Farrell should just be dropped to the bench (if Ford is selected).

Gosh Gaskell and Kitchener at lock? Now that must've been a very lightweight lock pairing.

There is a lot of claptrap on here about Twelvetrees. Beshocked you seem to have a very short memory when it comes to 36. It was only a matter of weeks ago that you were advocating him and Burrell start in the centres and that's what we've got.

Frankly 36 has done well with the opportunities he's had. He's often stood in at first receiver and has straightened the attack very well. He's made far more of an impression that Barritt in a host of areas where Barritt is below par. 36 at least makes ground taking the ball forward. His defence is not poor at all and bar one dreadful tackle in the Australia game I can't think of any glaring errors. Yes he misses tackles but the whole team does, as do Sarries due to the way they defend. To point at missed tackles as justification is not a fair reflection of the player, system or his performance.

He's had some poor passes and a decision to kick when passing was the better option. He's also put the ball through the hands well at times, offers a third kicking option and is offers a lot all round. He needs to work on consistency and aspects of his game but I don't see anyone standing out as being deprived of the opportunity to take the shirt. Eastmond has done well but needs to show more for Bath first and doesn't offer a kicking option yet.

36 is the best 12 we have available at present and whilst not the finished article is not a poor player by any stretch of the imagination. Some posters are far too fickle and impatient.

  

Coming back from injury after such a lay off is tricky. Especially for a guy who relied on bulk and power more than pace or guile. Match fitness will be an issue as well as combinations.

Presumably England's game plan has moved on.

And after such an injury, will he have the same impact? Or will the injury simply recur? Is it endemic to his style? A structural weakness?

Does anyone know where that bloody switch editor mode button is, since the problems on the mobile site I can't quote properly unless it's a short post!

can you just force your mobile;/tablet into displaying desktop?

normally in settings somewhere,

if not you can download a free browser app that does it

"36 is the best 12 we have available at present and whilst not the finished article is not a poor player by any stretch of the imagination. Some posters are far too fickle and impatient."

I don't think 36 I'd the best 12 we had, he's playing 13

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"36 is the best 12 we have available at present and whilst not the finished article is not a poor player by any stretch of the imagination. Some posters are far too fickle and impatient."

I don't think 36 I'd the best 12 we had, he's playing 13

Completely miss-read that to start with. Burrell has certainly backed up some very strong performances from the start of the season and has done well out of position. I don't think he has the range of skills 36 possesses but he's been in great form. He plays in a team top of the AP though and behind one of the best packs in the prem.

BamBam wrote:Does anyone know where that bloody switch editor mode button is, since the problems on the mobile site I can't quote properly unless it's a short post!

Yeah annoying isn't it.

Chjw131 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"36 is the best 12 we have available at present and whilst not the finished article is not a poor player by any stretch of the imagination. Some posters are far too fickle and impatient."

I don't think 36 I'd the best 12 we had, he's playing 13

Completely miss-read that to start with. Burrell has certainly backed up some very strong performances from the start of the season and has done well out of position. I don't think he has the range of skills 36 possesses but he's been in great form. He plays in a team top of the AP though and behind one of the best packs in the prem.

I tend to think Burrell gets a little underrated for his range of skills and 36 a little over.

I honestly don't think there's too much between them skills wise, just Burrell offers more with ball in hand.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"36 is the best 12 we have available at present and whilst not the finished article is not a poor player by any stretch of the imagination. Some posters are far too fickle and impatient."

I don't think 36 I'd the best 12 we had, he's playing 13

Completely miss-read that to start with. Burrell has certainly backed up some very strong performances from the start of the season and has done well out of position. I don't think he has the range of skills 36 possesses but he's been in great form. He plays in a team top of the AP though and behind one of the best packs in the prem.

I tend to think Burrell gets a little underrated for his range of skills and 36 a little over.

I honestly don't think there's too much between them skills wise, just Burrell offers more with ball in hand.

Agree that Burrell's passing is actually pretty good and he's demonstrated that at times. He has little to no kicking game though and 36 also offers another option as a place kicker. Form-wise though I agree either could wear 12.

Makes a change after some good quality options to choose from

beshocked wrote:Perhaps Allen could emerge as the saviour at 12?

I think Allen was extremely unlucky to get injured before the AI's as he did. Looked like 12.Allen 13.Twelvetrees was looking a real possibility. Whilst not a great partnership it would have served us better than Tomkins at 13 IMO and would have given Allen a much deserved chance to show how much he's improved.

Lot's of posters here like to say he's not got any one strong point to his game but the point is he's got no real weaknesses either:

- He organises a defence as well as any option but Barritt (who he's about on par with) and also very rarely misses a tackle. Puts in a fair few big hits when he needs to as well.

- When it comes to footwork and breaking a defence with a bit of quick feet and guile he's only behind Eastmond from the possible 12's.

- His distribution I'd say on is par with Eastmond. Neither of them have the length of passing game Twelvetrees has shown at club level but then many think 36 can't bring that to the international arena.

- His kicking game again doesn't have the distance of Twelvetrees but from the other options in Eastmond, Barritt and Burrell I'd say it's probably strongest. As said he doesn't have a huge boot but is clever in when he uses it.

- Most importantly I think he's the best decision maker out of the lot. He most often picks the right thing to do at the right moment which could make him a very good foil for a lot of the other backs we have now.

The only real weakness I'd pick on compared to the others is crash ball - Burrell, Twelvetrees and Barritt are all stronger in that field. However if the forwards continue to carry as they have recently and Tuilagi/Burrell are at 13 that is certainly not what we need to pick a 13 for.

mbernz wrote:I'm surprised at some of the conclusions on this thread about the type of player Burrell would be for England at 12.  The player I've seen there for Northampton is a lot more skilled than just a 'bosher'.

Tuilagi will almost certainly become the starting 13 again this year, and the current centres have done enough (Burrell out of position) that they must both be tested with him.

I agree about Burrell.  In fact, I don't think he is a bosher by nature.  When he was younger he was lanky and only in the last few years did he put a lot of that meat on his frame.  I see him as a centre who has good vision, gets the ball out quickly, runs good lines, has a good eye for the gap, and plays strong defense.  Once he put on some muscle he realised he had the ability and commitment to power through.  Clearly not a distributor in the Greenwood mold, but he can get the ball to the right bloke in the right place at the right time.  At Saints, playing Inside Centre, he keeps the attack moving.  I wouldn't mind seeing Burrell get a shot at the 12 jumper for England (neither would he, I presume).

Another interesting thing about Luther.  He is really coming into his own just this season at the somewhat late age of 26.  Saints have worked well with him, but he has done a lot on his own.  He is one of the few Saints I don't really know, but people tell me he is a studier.  Which means he is motivated and smart.  Give me a player with those attributes plus some natural ability and we will have something.

Sorry king Carlos but that's tripe. No centre is a good a defender as Barritt as he showed yet again vs Bath.

Plus Barritt's deft grabber made a mockery of the opinion that he's just an one dimensional bosher.

Saracens and Barritt showed how to nullify Ford and Eastmond. It would have not gone unnoticed.

I still think Ford and Eastmond are good players but they got given a lesson by their more experienced rival England team mates.

Eastmond is massively overrated on here, he's nowhere near Int quality imo.

Sgt pooly we can only tell that if he gets a chance.