Manu Tuilagi and Englands Midfield

First topic message reminder :

Been having a discussion about Manu on another thread and i thought id open it up to everyone to see your opinons?

It seems to me that almost 100% on here are simply assuming Manu will walk back in to the England team.

Is Manu simply that good that he can do that, over those currently in the midfield? Is he Englands superstar player that they cant do without?

What about his competition? He has the power game..but what if Elliott Daly was to move back permanently to 13?

Many are advocating a midfield of

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
It has huge power...but possibly missing a little guile?

Im merely putting out there...might the following have more balance?

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly (once hes back playing permanently at 13)

HKC I was stoic in my defence of Ashton because he's been one of the leading try scorers this season in club rugby. Of course there's a bit of bias too but in terms of form he had been the best performing winger at club level.

We do not know how much of Ashton's struggling at wing for England has been down to the lack of ball. I genuinely think with this current centre set up, plus Care and Brown playing well, Ashton would have an easier time if utilised properly.

Let's be honest Nowell did nothing to deserve his call up. Did his jittery start vs France in the first game of the 6 nations cost us dear in my opinion? Yes. He has done some good things but he's also done some poor things - not sure first match in the 6 nations is the right time to play someone who hasn't really proven themselves at club level let alone international level.

killer 938 my point about May is that him going off did affect the France game and was arguably a reason England lost because having to play with two full backs on the wing. Injuries to players can impact a match.

Londontiger I am annoyed England lost and I felt that Lancaster got his selection wrong in that first game. Starting two inexperienced wingers failed in that first match.

Not sure I agree with Lancaster's way of looking at wingers.

I have not yet felt that Lancaster has justified the selection of May and Nowell. Perhaps I am just still hold them responsible for the lost to France and a chance at a GS.

Sorry, so you hold May responsible for the game being lost?

The person most responsible (other than Fickou) was Lancaster for taking Care and Hartley off in a pre-programmed move and selecting unbalanced replacements.

It would be interesting to see Ashton in for Nowell, the wings have seen a lot more ball than the AI and I imagine Ashton would thrive.

May had his nose accidentally biffed by Brown's knee apparently, so bit harsh if anyone blaming May for getting himself hurt as Brown hit the ruck.

It was clear before the 6Ns that Manu was one of our only world class backs. He does have an amaxing ability to make things happen and to score or create tries through his power. However he was playing against Wales last year and that did not go too well. I think he does need to come back into the side, but I am not sure how? Either a direct replacement for Burrell which cannot be justified currently, or move Burrell to 12 or put Manu on the wing. Longer term I want to see proper wingers with pace and Yarde and Wade fit that bill for me, but he might be a better option than Nowell for this weekend. 36 has only played 1 decent match to date and the jury is out still, but he has warranted another go. Therefore, Manu to the bench for this weekend. I think we can only justify changing the midfield when things go wrong which will be in the summer. Then Manu can come off the bench and if he shows an obvious improvement then Lancaster and Catt will need to re-think their plans. Does Burrell have the skill set to play 12? Nice to have options and it is now up to the individuals concerned to perform otherwise there are eager and capable replacements ready to go.

beshocked wrote:HKC I was stoic in my defence of Ashton because he's been one of the leading try scorers this season in club rugby. Of course there's a bit of bias too but in terms of form he had been the best performing winger at club level.

We do not know how much of Ashton's struggling at wing for England has been down to the lack of ball. I genuinely think with this current centre set up, plus Care and Brown playing well, Ashton would have an easier time if utilised properly.

Let's be honest Nowell did nothing to deserve his call up. Did his jittery start vs France in the first game of the 6 nations cost us dear in my opinion? Yes. He has done some good things but he's also done some poor things - not sure first match in the 6 nations is the right time to play someone who hasn't really proven themselves at club level let alone international level.

killer 938 my point about May is that him going off did affect the France game and was arguably a reason England lost because having to play with two full backs on the wing. Injuries to players can impact a match.

Londontiger I am annoyed England lost and I felt that Lancaster got his selection wrong in that first game. Starting two inexperienced wingers failed in that first match.

Not sure I agree with Lancaster's way of looking at wingers.

I have not yet felt that Lancaster has justified the selection of May and Nowell. Perhaps I am just still hold them responsible for the lost to France and a chance at a GS.

What other options did Lancaster have in terms of wing selection? The other realistic choices were Ashton or Watson. Watson was no more experienced than Nowell. Who else would have 'deserved' a call up more than Nowell? Ashton may well have been scoring tries at club level, but he was doing that when he was dropped. As such, you have to look at whether he's addressed the issues that saw him dropped in the first place.

As for the May issue, yes his injury affected the match. That's nothing to do with May though. Nor is it an issue with Lancaster's selection of two inexperienced wingers. The real issue was the bench selection. Look at the backs that finished that game - Dickson, Farrell, Brown, Twelvetrees, Barritt, Burrell, Goode. That's where the problem lies.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It would be interesting to see Ashton in for Nowell, the wings have seen a lot more ball than the AI and I imagine Ashton would thrive.

How many tries has Ashton scored for England out wide? (Yes I do remember "The Try") Most have come by him coming infield to run of the shoulder of inside backs. I am not sure he would enjoy having to stay wide. Certainly he looked unhappy in the Autumn. Strettle on the other hand, with the form he is in, would have had some fun.

I do think he's a finisher though LT and neither May or Nowell are that.

I personally would have had him in for Nowell who's not quite ready yet although he's done ok.

Londontiger I hold Lancaster responsible first and foremost because he makes the selections - I thought May and Nowell were poor selections. Who picked them? Lancaster of course.

jbeadlesbigrighthand who would you have picked on the bench?

I would have picked Ashton. More experienced than Nowell.

May's injury is nothing to do with May?

Those backs finishing the game would have just been about okay if we didn't give away such a significant lead early on (because of the injury to May and Nowell's jittery start.)

I agree Lancaster should not taken off Care and Hartley. That was another mistake - Lancaster's fault.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I hold Lancaster responsible first and foremost because he makes the selections - I thought May and Nowell were poor selections. Who picked them? Lancaster of course.

jbeadlesbigrighthand who would you have picked on the bench?

I would have picked Ashton. More experienced than Nowell.

May's injury is nothing to do with May?

Those backs finishing the game would have just been about okay if we didn't give away such a significant lead early on (because of the injury to May and Nowell's jittery start.)

I agree Lancaster should not taken off Care and Hartley. That was another mistake - Lancaster's fault.

Lancs' poor bench and use thereof was a significant factor in that French loss. Having no wing cover at all (bar Brown who we know isn't a wing by a long stretch) was going to cause issues.

I disagree that Strettle should be in the squad and it's a completely hypothetical point to say Ashton would've done better than Nowell.

I think so far that May has shown he could offer a lot but hasn't set the world alight yet. Nowell has been up and down but shown glimpses of real talent. For me he should remain in the squad but both Yarde and Wade (had they been fit) made a much stronger case pre-selection.

May broke his nose on Brown's knee apparently. Surely its just as much his fault as May's that May got injured?

Bloody bald angry git, causing us to lose to France by kneeing his own player in the face

Stupid Lancaster for picking Brown's knee in the fullback position

I've been a vocal supporter of Nowell and I think he's copped some harsh criticsm. Of course we don't want to settle for a player simply being 'okay' but how many players storm it in their first few caps? Give the lads a chance or we'll forever been ploughing through wingers like we have with the centres. We need to learn from what happened to Matthew Tait and Anthony Allen.

Mind you I'm going to contradict myself massively now. I'm wondering if a finisher/ poacher is the way forward for Saturday. We need to wrack up the tries and I reckon that Ashton might thrive against Italy, he certainly likes scoring against them.

Chjw131 wrote:
I think so far that May has shown he could offer a lot but hasn't set the world alight yet. Nowell has been up and down but shown glimpses of real talent. For me he should remain in the squad but both Yarde and Wade (had they been fit) made a much stronger case pre-selection.

I agree 100%


Ashton (and Ben Youngs for that matter) have paid the price for shocking form (for England over an 18month period for one, and for Leicester for the other). In Ashtons case the replacements have improved match by match and deserve the chance to finish the season. Meanwhile Ashton's own form has not been compelling enough to warrant a recall.

I think Stewie made a couple of mistakes in retrospect and also got unlucky in the France game. Putting 2 shiney new wingers in for the 1st game of the 6N, away, against France was always a risk. And Nowell made mistakes – as he was bound to in his 1st game. It didn’t help settle his nerves that the catch from the KO was fumbled; and that he was the cover (great planning!). Then May going off in the 1st few minutes made a pig’s ear of the back 3 – which was just plain bad luck. Then the use/timing of the bench was poor.

I think SL should have eased the new back 3 in by playing Ashton in the France game; then May in to see what he could do. And replacing Hartley & Care was just poor planning. We need Stewie to be part of the definite improvement in the team’s performance.

beshocked wrote:jbeadlesbigrighthand who would you have picked on the bench?

I would have picked Ashton. More experienced than Nowell.

May's injury is nothing to do with May?

Who would I have picked on the bench? We needed some experience, given the inexperience of the starting backs. We needed some pace too. Ashton would have given both. However, Ashton on the bench would have meant switching Nowell to full back if we'd needed a full back sub. It also goes against the fact that he wasn't playing well enough for England. On the balance of things, I think I would have gone for Watson on the bench over Goode.

How is May's injury his fault? And how can you say May's selection contributed to the loss? His injury, yes, but his selection? That's insane.

Beshocked, you're being ridiculous about May's injury.  Injury's can happen to anybody at any time, it's an unfortunate part of the game and isn't some kind of fault.

Cumbrian it did cost England though. It was unfortunate agreed but it happened.

If there is a tendency for players not to storm it in the first few games then why was it acceptable for Lancaster to gamble on two new caps on the wings vs France?

Londontiger do you really think May and Nowell have improved match upon match?

So jbeadlesbrighthand you would have picked yet another inexperienced winger on the bench even though the two on the pitch arguably cost us the match?

Barney Mcgrew it I agree with all that.

chjw131 the bench issue became far worse because May got injured so early and was not helped with Nowell's jittery form.

England should have not given France that significant lead.

Nowell's jittery form was hardly surprising when it was his first cap.

As I said before I blame Lancaster more. He's the one making the selection decisions.

A grandslam was there for the taking but if you make such a gamble in the first match and it fails - criticism is inevitable.

Sorry for shouting.

NO-ONE IS SAYING THAT ENGLAND DID NOT SUFFER DUE TO MAY'S INJURY BUT ONLY YOU ARE SAYING THAT WAS MAY'S FAULT.

Actually, if you go back to the logical beginning, May's injury was Ashton's fault for being so sh1t on england duty that Lancaster had no choice but to try out two complete novices at the same time

Beshocked, is Ashton really one of the leading try scorers this season? I genuinely don't know, but I do know he's not in the top 10 Jeff scorers. I do think Ashton was made a scapegoat but I don't think Care or the midfield would've made any difference to his faults, namely defence. For me May, Nowell, Wade and Yarde all deserve to be ahead of him, but if Ashton can refind his form from a few years ago he'd get back in that side.


I have avoided commenting of May to avoid accusations of club bias. All I will say is that there isn't another back capable of what he did for that try against Edinburgh and it makes watching the England back 3 a whole lot more enjoyable than it used to be. All of those criticising him are just plain wrong

The only other option was Ashton (utterly cack) and Goode to FB and Brown to wing (utterly cack). Therefore the right selection was made

Not true. They couldve picked Watson for one. Former Lancaster love child Strettle was fit and scoring too (isnt he top of the premiership stats?). I believe Sharples ( the player Lancaster slated Johnson for not taking to the world cup ) was available as well and is in the extended EPS. then theres always Banahan who has a better try scoring record than any player in the current training squad other than Burrell.

Im not saying it wasnt the best choice, but there were others without going to far back in time and picking someone like Cueto (second in premiership try scorers this year?) to "do a job".

Yup, Strettle leading try scorer, Cueto second EQP in the list. (Goneva inbetween)

Think Ashton is near if not the to HC scorer? thats where hes been earning his rand this year

Beshocked you keep intimating that May getting injured was his fault, it is not. Blame Lancaster for his silly bench selection not having a utility back on the bench (Goode is only a very poor mans utility back), especially when he had three capable 15s on the field to start.

For an experienced player, someone like Tait, Cueto, Abadendon (spelling) even for Gods sake Balshaw would be better than Goode. All 3 can play wing or 15, Barritt covered centre, 36 covered 10.  Tait would cover just about everywhere to a reasonable standard.

May is much maligned, as someone has previously said, SL likes his wingers out wide hugging the touch line. That gives them very little room against a decent cover defence. May comes back inside, not away from his support, but towards it. If he had blasted straight down the wing the chances on most of his runs are that he would have been bundled into touch; throw to opposition, or worse turned over in broken play, very dangerous.

The cover defence tends to come back infield with him, what England need to do is have some one like Burrell coming through angling back to the touch a little to orchestrate a scissors movement and put him into space as the defence is wrong footed with the whole of the touch line to run down. That would do two things either hold back the cover defence giving May a potential hole to run through or allow the power runner a good chance of a break through at pace.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Think Ashton is near if not the to HC scorer? thats where hes been earning his rand this year

It should be noted that 6 were against Connacht and Zebre, two teams certain posters claim are not good enough to be in the tournament.

Manu straight back into the squad according to SS News.

Fair enough but dont mention shane williams and japan in the same setence.

I guess thats the thing with a real strike wing like ashton, he turns dominance into tries but relies on others to do the rest, perhaps a luxury player.


Id suggest if youre chasing 50+ points youd want the guy who scored 4 in a game against that team rather than the guy who scored 2 tries in his entire senior career and none in tests.

But yknow, build for the long term n that

Cumbrian wrote:Manu straight back into the squad according to SS News.

Interesting elsewhere is reporting unchanged side. Id assume a bench spot then? Presumably to offer another attacking option rather than a stifleing player

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26536571

http://www.rfu.com/news/2014/march/news-articles/110314_squad_update_manu

Just says he's part of the match day squad at the moment. You'd expect a bench spot though.

Why are the RFU reporting on Manchester United?

I'd expect Goode to drop out

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd expect Goode to drop out

You'd be right too.

Some impact sub

Beshocked,

Just so you're aware in an interview May explained that his nose was broken by Mike Brown hitting him in a ruck (with his knee). The ruck only occured because Farrell gave him a hospital pass when he was marked by two players, even though he shouted 'no, it's not on'. Repeatedly.

So really if we're looking to lay blame for May going off and forcing us to use Goode early then it's Farrell's fault, closely followed by Brown.

And Nowell did start badly vs France but did well for the rest of the time, including tackling Picamoles.

I think it would be a mistake to bring Tuilagi back in the mix.  he has been out of rugby for a long time and should really focus on Leicester for now.  His chance to play International Rugby will come in three months.  I think Leicester is one of the best places to get back in the Rugby mentality whilst working back to full match fitness.

And another Sarry bites the dust.......

Seriously though with all our available talent we need to understand that the issues are nolonger in the centres. Obviously we currently have two very green wings who are doing a job and if managed well will learn incredibly valuable lessons from their international exposure, but given form and fitness Cristian Wade would have the right wing and probably Marland Yarde the left. Both have more ability and as per my previously discription as 'world class' I am certain Wade is a 'prince' of a wing. (we could very well play Foden or Sharples or even Eastmond or Tuilagi)

That is not the issue. So if its not at centre and its not on the wing (and I don't have issue at fullback with either Brown or Foden or Watson in the future) then where on earth is our PROBLEM because we do have a PROBLEM as an attacking force and we WILL NOT win a world cup with our current tactics.

So for me the issue is around our 'rugby league based' 'left & right' approach and our laboured FLYHALF and our general lack of real pace.

So leaving the structure to one side and with the appreciation that OF will not play every minute of every game in NZ (and infact might not even be available for the first test) will we then see a marked difference in our attacking threat?

What if Saracens play Bath in the premier final, you then have both OF and GF unavailable....see where I'm going here?

Burns is burnt for now, Flood has gone and Myler should not be in the equation. There is only one player who has the special talent to lead England at 10 and that player is........













Alex Goode










not on your life......Danny Cipriani is the one any serious pundit should be keeping very close eye on for the remainder of the season. Head down work hard be concistent. Quite frankly his every move on and of the field needs to be watched over and evaluated, because if he is the real deal then he must be given an opportunity this summer. Oh yer bomber...........

doctor_grey wrote:I think it would be a mistake to bring Tuilagi back in the mix.  he has been out of rugby for a long time and should really focus on Leicester for now.  His chance to play International Rugby will come in three months.  I think Leicester is one of the best places to get back in the Rugby mentality whilst working back to full match fitness.

Good call and thats why Bomber got it wrong

I don't think Farrell is an issue tbh, what I'd do now is let the partnerships in place now continue to gel

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't think Farrell is an issue tbh, what I'd do now is let the partnerships in place now continue to gel

Very true, enabling playing relationships to develop is crucial to allowing them to deliver their optimum, however when player A offers more than player B (36 over BB, BV over Wood, ofcourse you'll all remember my silly billy's post?) then brave decisions should be demanded. JD2 over BOD anyone.....

Is that Billy Vunipola over Wood (BV)?

doctor_grey wrote:I think it would be a mistake to bring Tuilagi back in the mix.  he has been out of rugby for a long time and should really focus on Leicester for now.  His chance to play International Rugby will come in three months.  I think Leicester is one of the best places to get back in the Rugby mentality whilst working back to full match fitness.

So why are SO many Leicester players injured....what are they doing wrong down there? Is it TOO physical in training?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think it would be a mistake to bring Tuilagi back in the mix.  he has been out of rugby for a long time and should really focus on Leicester for now.  His chance to play International Rugby will come in three months.  I think Leicester is one of the best places to get back in the Rugby mentality whilst working back to full match fitness.

So why are SO many Leicester players injured....what are they doing wrong down there? Is it TOO physical in training?

Theres so many of them

Lions tour/excessive demands of test rugby especially those with clubs who progress in europe

Everyone hates Tigers including god

Theres a lot of players injured full stop

I dont hate Tigers?

I was merely pointing out that over the last few seasons you have had a lot of injuries? Am i wrong?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I dont hate Tigers?

You sound unsure. Any way:

Nobody loves us, everybody hates us
Think we'll go and eat worms
Long ones, short ones, fat ones, thin ones
See how they wriggle and squirm

Sorry....no i dont hate the Tigers at all....

After all they're now the feeder club for us...El Mahdi, Brookes etc..   

well-past it I am not sure how you can say there were 3 capable 15s. Brown sure, Nowell and May are unproven at 15.

The funny thing is that at club level Goode has been in much better form than all you mention.

Goode is even on the long list for HC player of the season.

Cueto is a winger, you could argue he would have been a better starter than May or Nowell.

May is maligned? There seems to be an awful lot who don't acknowledge his faults.

kingelderfield is the same Danny Cipriani who gave away 4 chargedown tries in 4 international matches - all in consecutive matches? England have time to tweak proceedings.

lostinwales Nowell did start badly vs France - and guess what? England went behind by a significant amount of points.

Yappysnap surely if you are going down that route - the players who tackled May are equally to blame? You are right though I am probably being harsh blaming May for his injury but injuries affect matches. He got injured at a crucial moment which cost England dearly.

B,

Hand the spade to someone else, the hole is big enough.