Manu Tuilagi and Englands Midfield

First topic message reminder :

Been having a discussion about Manu on another thread and i thought id open it up to everyone to see your opinons?

It seems to me that almost 100% on here are simply assuming Manu will walk back in to the England team.

Is Manu simply that good that he can do that, over those currently in the midfield? Is he Englands superstar player that they cant do without?

What about his competition? He has the power game..but what if Elliott Daly was to move back permanently to 13?

Many are advocating a midfield of

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
It has huge power...but possibly missing a little guile?

Im merely putting out there...might the following have more balance?

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly (once hes back playing permanently at 13)

Just watched the Ireland and Wales matches again. Both May and Nowell are truly terrible as strike wingers. They perform well under high balls and tackle pretty well (better then Ashton) but in those last two game they must of got more ball then Ashsplash got all last season and all May does is run sideways away from his support and all Nowell does is run into contact or kick it away.

It's hardly unexpected as they're both probably 4th/5th choice but those basic winger skills of just running at a gap and pinning your ears back just don't seem there!!!

As for Manu he should get the 23 shirt if he does come back in. To be honest he needs to show some good form for Tigers first, Burrell played out of his skin for Saints to get a cap and it shouldn't be any different for Manu.

yappysnap wrote:As for Manu he should get the 23 shirt if he does come back in. To be honest he needs to show some good form for Tigers first, Burrell played out of his skin for Saints to get a cap and it shouldn't be any different for Manu.

Agree with that bit. I can only hope he is going really well in training if Lancs is considering him on the bench.

The teams in the league final will have the biggest impact. Saints v Tigers would be the worst because we'd be back on a third outside centre...and god forbid...what if they do well? Does Burrell come back in? Tuilagi even in the squad. It's a pain in the arse having too many decent players

Whoa there – against decent (?) opposition 12T has had 1 good game. That’s ‘good’; by comparison Brown, Care and the SR had excellent ones. This performance goes some way in erasing the horror of some of 12T games. We’re about a year and a half out from the RWC so we need a better return than that. And by England’s standards he’s now a seasoned veteran  . Let’s send him to NZ and see how he gets on. I would still like to see a Burrell/Manu combination tried.

As for Nowell and May – if we’re satisfied with ok (and a quarter-final appearance at best) then they’re shoo-ins. Let’s hope Yarde and Wade can eclipse them.

I understand the desire to get Tuilagi back in the fold. But, as you know, I believe in longer rehabilitation and readjustment periods. Absolutely nothing against him, but I would strongly prefer to have Tuilagi back at Tigers for the rest of the season getting back in full game shape. And not with England.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's good that we now have 3 top options in the centres, something unheard of for England for many a year.

Agree.  Things are proceeding well, no?

Aside from having wings who couldnt score in a brothel even if armed with £50 notes, one of whome was picked on his ability to handle high balls and tackle...neither of which he can do.

I am an innocent, but what do you get for £50 ? touch ? try ? hooker ? put in ?

It was just nice to see Twelvetrees' "playmaking" at work. He showed some of the skills that he's meant to be delivering.

Still needs a bit of work on his kicking for territory though.

It's not easy to get the right balance in the backline but it looks like it's coming together.

Agree with yappysnap and PSW. Expect Nowell and May to do better with all the ball they have been getting.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
one of whome was picked on his ability to handle high balls and tackle...neither of which he can do.

I know George North is a big man, but are his balls and tackle really that high? And why would any one wish to handle them?

May was stunningly bad.

I've never seen a wing so constantly run around like a headless chicken. Just don't know where he's got this idea from that it'll work.

gregortree wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's good that we now have 3 top options in the centres, something unheard of for England for many a year.

Agree.  Things are proceeding well, no?

Aside from having wings who couldnt score in a brothel even if armed with £50 notes, one of whome was picked on his ability to handle high balls and tackle...neither of which he can do.

I am an innocent, but what do you get for £50 ? touch ? try ? hooker ? put in ?

Well, I know this place where for a 50...........

doctor_grey wrote:

gregortree wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's good that we now have 3 top options in the centres, something unheard of for England for many a year.

Agree.  Things are proceeding well, no?

Aside from having wings who couldnt score in a brothel even if armed with £50 notes, one of whome was picked on his ability to handle high balls and tackle...neither of which he can do.

I am an innocent, but what do you get for £50 ? touch ? try ? hooker ? put in ?

Well, I know this place where for a 50...........

The sort of place where you handle high balls and tackle?

50 what ?

To be fair May has scored a lot in the Premiership but he looks like he's not truely confident at this level yet. I think he's showed flashes and he will get better given the chance but I would expect Yarde to come back in once fit as first choice. Nowell is there as a stop gap and really is more of a full back. You never know a couple of tries against the Italians and they may manage to step up fully.

I'll ask ask Danni the Tranni... he knows about that sort of high tackle. I think it surprised him though.

beshocked wrote: Disagree king carlos. I don't think May and Nowell have been very good. You could argue that both cost us the game vs France with one getting injured and the other having a very poor first 20 minutes.

Neither have shown the finishing ability needed from a winger.

Credit to Twelvetrees and Burrell they are making sure the wingers are getting plenty of ball yet I don't feel Nowell and May are making the most of it.


Why should Daly be considered when he is playing at 15 and hasn't really achieved much yet?

Eastmond? Has a lot to prove in my opinion.

A couple of points here.

Firstly, are you seriously suggesting that May contributed to the France loss by getting his nose broken? That's beyond harsh. It would be fairer to argue that we didn't have the bench options to cope with the injury.

Secondly, while neither May nor Nowell have been devastatingly clinical so far, their all-round games have been decent (barring a couple of early mistakes from Nowell). Both of them are at least showing good potential. In any case, who else would be a better choice, given that the obvious options are either injured or dropped? I guess you could make a case for Ashton being a more natural finisher, who may flourish in the more expansive game England have been playing. However, would he also remove some of the solidity from the team?

Finally, can I ask whether there are any players you feel are pushing for a place in the squad? It seems that whenever someone throws a name out, you say that they "haven't proven themselves". That's not meant to be a personal attack, by they way - I'm genuinely curious as to what you think a player needs to do to make them worthy of consideration. Bear in mind that we're a year out from the world cup and need to build a squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair May has scored a lot in the Premiership but he looks like he's not truely confident at this level yet. I think he's showed flashes and he will get better given the chance but I would expect Yarde to come back in once fit as first choice. Nowell is there as a stop gap and really is more of a full back. You never know a couple of tries against the Italians and they may manage to step up fully.

As a Glaws fan, I was embarrassed at times. He definitely has incredible acceleration and speed. He'll burn anyone out there at club level.
His step is good... but just one please Jonny. 10 sidesteps and a back step is just not suitable at international level.
I'd understand if Bomber drops him, but I also hope he perseveres. Jonny likes a bit of space, and I can see that you don't always get that at this level.
Ashton was starting to look a little crowded into ineffectiveness before also getting dropped.
Ashton apart, who else was the last really effective winger we had under SL ? Anyone remember ? My memory is not great on this.

may and nowell have been fine. stop all the carping. one dropped catch by may where jamie roberts took him out, and one missed tackle by nowell? give it a rest.

they may not have scored, but the attacking threat they pose is what drags the defending line wide and creates spaces in the middle.

the fact that burrell has scored 3 in 4, and had 2 denied (correctly) by the TMO, shows that even if may and nowell are not scoring themselves, they are helping create chances and spaces.

first couple of games nowell kept getting isolated and conceding pens for hanging on. happening less now that supporters are getting used to his movement and running lines.

no team has looked like scoring from open play against england so i'm not sure why may/nowell are getting such criticism. france got two lucky bounces (one deflected off an english foot too) to score early and bad organisation with subs and burrell on the wing etc allowed fickou to score at the death.

beshocked, only you could blame may who went off with a broken nose after 10 minutes for costing england the game against france. ashton is never going to play again for england absent lengthy injury lists. best get used to it and try to understand the subtle improvements elsewhere on the pitch that may/nowell currently bring to the side.

gregortree wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair May has scored a lot in the Premiership but he looks like he's not truely confident at this level yet. I think he's showed flashes and he will get better given the chance but I would expect Yarde to come back in once fit as first choice. Nowell is there as a stop gap and really is more of a full back. You never know a couple of tries against the Italians and they may manage to step up fully.

As a Glaws fan, I was embarrassed at times. He definitely has incredible acceleration and speed. He'll burn anyone out there at club level.
His step is good... but just one please Jonny. 10 sidesteps and a back step is just not suitable at international level.
I'd understand if Bomber drops him, but I also hope he perseveres. Jonny likes a bit of space, and I can see that you don't always get that at this level.
Ashton was starting to look a little crowded into ineffectiveness before also getting dropped.
Ashton apart, who else was the last really effective winger we had under SL ? Anyone remember ? My memory is not great on this.

The nearest to an effective strike winger under Lancaster was Yarde in the summer, but that was in soft tests against Argentina.
The number of tries from the back 3 has been ridiculously low. Even browns two plops in this tournament dont cover that. England have been scoring a lot from 13 though, and recently making ridiculous yards from deep.
Lancatser appears to have "redefined wing play" into kick return and cover defence. Hey dont knock it, its working (sort of)

I think the wingers have done ok.

Nowell has had his moments, nothing outstanding but i think he can develope into a very good winger.

May needs to get his direction sorted. Way too much side ways play. But again hes another with huge potential and just needs time and a bit of guidance.

I certainly wouldnt throw them on the scrap heap.

With May, Nowell, Ashton, Yarde, Wade...(and Kibirige - did you see his wonder try for the U20's?   ) we are in good stock for wingers. Keep working with them.

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair May has scored a lot in the Premiership but he looks like he's not truely confident at this level yet. I think he's showed flashes and he will get better given the chance but I would expect Yarde to come back in once fit as first choice. Nowell is there as a stop gap and really is more of a full back. You never know a couple of tries against the Italians and they may manage to step up fully.

I was just thinking as I read the last few comments that both wingers, in particular May, would benefit from having a simple run in try on the outside. At the moment they are trying too hard to make things happen for themselves rather than integrating well with the team - perhaps feeling a bit over-shadowed by Brown's excellent form?

I'd be very tempted to bring Yarde back in for Nowell for the Italy game, and to tell May that it is sometimes a good idea to back your pace and try to go outside your defender (look back at the Ireland game, and he had the opportunity to try that but cut back inside despite the fact that the outermost defender was Mike Ross).

There is no doubt that England are building nicely and developing a squad with some depth. I don't think a team can get close to a WC without significant depth.

The pack look to have particularly strong depth but I'm simply not convinced by 11, 12, 13, & 14. Twelvetrees and Burrell may feature but the wingers on Saturday were fill-ins at best. Certainly good enough to cope with a lousy Welsh performance but very ordinary by test standards. There are better players returning and SL still has 18 months to find the best combination. If England get that right they will be real contenders.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think the wingers have done ok.

Nowell has had his moments, nothing outstanding but i think he can develope into a very good winger.

May needs to get his direction sorted. Way too much side ways play. But again hes another with huge potential and just needs time and a bit of guidance.

I certainly wouldnt throw them on the scrap heap.

With May, Nowell, Ashton, Yarde, Wade...(and Kibirige - did you see his wonder try for the U20's?   ) we are in good stock for wingers. Keep working with them.

 
  totally agree, don't do a 'Tait' to these young lads, give them time, and I hope a bit of paddock space.

I'd thrown Watson into that list as a serious option going forward as well.

vs wales

brown 145m gained, 18 carries, 7 defenders beaten, 1 clean break, 2 turnovers conceded
may 98m gained, 10 carries, 4 def beaten, 1 clean break, 1 turnover conceded
nowell 103m gained, 15 carries, 5 def beaten, 1 clean break, 1 turnover conceded

Wales best player in terms of m gained was georgie north:
north 94m gained, 13 carries, 7 def beaten, 3 clean breaks, 2 turnovers conceded
then it was cuthbert with 53m.

yes some of this was due to Wales kicking being longer, but no english player dropped an uncontested kick.

i would be pretty happy with those stats if i were SL. especially seeing both may and nowell concede less turnovers than brown, something that was clearly not the case in their first couple of games.

We'll be fine at wing, they are all young and you can add Walker to that list too

Forgot about him altogether! As so often it's not going to be lack of choice which holds us back but the itchiness to move on to the next hope without getting the best out of those initially picked.

One of Brown's turnovers was when he couldn't quite hang onto his wonder catch on his own Garry-Owen though

When it says May gained 98m - does that mean he just ran 98m? Because I can't see that being gained as in 'in a straight line towards the opposition line'. Most of his running was sideways.

I'm revising my opinion of Twelvetrees a bit in the light of the last game and the series as a whole. Lancaster made a comment afterwards about how he does a lot of unflashy work that makes life easier for Farrell.

And then I got to thinking about how England have struggled for a decade to find a decent 12, and how even Greenwood and Catt took some flak for their early performances.

IC is probably the most complicated position in attack, especially when the fly half is not a natural creator. You need to be reading the game and calling plays for the fly half, and then adjusting your own role as the play develops. All of which has to happen significantly faster at international level. OC is probably harder defensively, but in attack you don't have as many options to juggle. Burrell has executed very well, but all three of his tries came from predetermined plays; his nearly-try at the end was brilliant but he hasn't produced that sort of play as often.

Lancaster's sides have always build in a consistent way - defence (and counter-attack) first, then forward domination and territorial play, and attacking verve last. I am beginning to wonder if 12 is just one of those positions that you have to develop into at international level, especially when you've had the amount of change that England have had in the backline. Twelvetrees is getting there and I hope Lancaster persists with that.

Which said, I would like to see Burrell tried at IC at some point, and maybe Eastmond.

yappysnap wrote:May was stunningly bad.

I've never seen a wing so constantly run around like a headless chicken. Just don't know where he's got this idea from that it'll work.

It works at AP level because the defences are worse. Hopefully he'll cut back on it

ChequeredJersey wrote:One of Brown's turnovers was when he couldn't quite hang onto his wonder catch on his own Garry-Owen though

that was an amazing effort. i suppose that does count as a turnover as he did briefly gather it.

those stats were obviously not meant to malign brown in any way CJ   Sticking up for the much-derided wingers

I know, I'm just defensive

TopHat24/7 wrote:When it says May gained 98m - does that mean he just ran 98m? Because I can't see that being gained as in 'in a straight line towards the opposition line'.  Most of his running was sideways.

not sure. took them straight from the 6N stats

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=playstatshome&fixid=183794

totals do add up to more than other media reporting as metres gained so maybe the stats i have quoted include may's sideways-ness.

The RFU stats differ anyway. I wish they could get consistent stats

I wouldnt change the team for Italy. Keep the wingers and leave Tuilagi with Leicester.

This team have earned the right to play against Italy, by being excellent...and should really be going for the grandslam.

Likewise the two centres have been very good...Twelvetrees was very good v Wales.

Hopefully we can continue to play this more open game in attack and give the wingers a chance to get some decent opportunities and get a bit of confidence.

The stats change as they redo them afterwards - re-asses what is a missed tackle etc.

The metres made are deemed to be only the forward ground gained.

The official ones are on the RBS 6 Nations website.

Off sick so went through the espn stats for tackles made/missed by wingers this 6N. Best two performances are unsurprisingly from Italy and Scotland, with Lamont 21/0 and Sarto 32/3.

Nowell has made 15 and missed 4, May 10/0

Wales Cuthbert 12/6 (although he was 0/4 vs Eng) and North 12/8 (including 3/6 in the centers)

Ireland Trimble 15/4 Kearney 10/4

quinsforever wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:When it says May gained 98m - does that mean he just ran 98m? Because I can't see that being gained as in 'in a straight line towards the opposition line'.  Most of his running was sideways.

not sure. took them straight from the 6N stats

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=playstatshome&fixid=183794

totals do add up to more than other media reporting as metres gained so maybe the stats i have quoted include may's sideways-ness.

Its meters gained ..ie forward from point of receiving the ball to point of tackle/pass.

It does highlight just how exaggerated certain things are in peoples minds ( eg May running sideways, Wales kicking everything)

TopHat24/7 wrote:When it says May gained 98m - does that mean he just ran 98m? Because I can't see that being gained as in 'in a straight line towards the opposition line'.  Most of his running was sideways.

As far as I know that is distance gained - i.e moving the ball up the pitch. You dont need many runs from deep to clock up the numbers and May did do that

For all the rubbish coming out they are both very competent players who look comfortable on the ball and do ask questions. I know we would like it more if May did run straight once in a while but of the chances he has had there was maybe only one or 2 that running straight would make a difference.

May has usually made ground with every sideways run, I just wish he'd mix it up and would pass when there is space made by his Maziness or try and go around the outside

ChequeredJersey wrote:May has usually made ground with every sideways run, I just wish he'd mix it up and would pass when there is space made by his Maziness or try and go around the outside

Shane Willimas ran sideways a lot too. Of course over a long career he would find gaps or have big forwards picking good lines for him to offload to. May is in a fledgling career and has shown at other levels that he can be a proficient try scorer.

As previously mentioned, a try would give both wingers huge confidence.

I can see all the back 3 scoring in Rome. Winning isn't a given but also we are capable of thrashing Italy

lostinwales wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:When it says May gained 98m - does that mean he just ran 98m? Because I can't see that being gained as in 'in a straight line towards the opposition line'.  Most of his running was sideways.

As far as I know that is distance gained - i.e moving the ball up the pitch. You dont need many runs from deep to clock up the numbers and May did do that

For all the rubbish coming out they are both very competent players who look comfortable on the ball and do ask questions. I know we would like it more if May did run straight once in a while but of the chances he has had there was maybe only one or 2 that running straight would make a difference.

yep then we could get back to complaining about players looking for contact all the time

yappysnap wrote:May was stunningly bad.

I've never seen a wing so constantly run around like a headless chicken. Just don't know where he's got this idea from that it'll work.

I think people have been a bit unfair on May. He was given a couple of god awful passes, mainly because the player passing was pressed by a guy rushing out of the line, but on both occasions he had to stall and reach backwards, losing all momentum. He was also up against a very large winger who he would have known would have been able to bundle him into touch. There were occasions were he seemed to willingly lose his support, but also a couple where he ducked in because if he'd 'backed his pace' he would have got shoved into touch.

I'm not 100% convinced he's a better bet than Wade and Yarde, but one of the things our backs hopelessly lack is a creative runner, minus maybe Care. If he can dial it down a little or work out when best to use it I think May's 'unorthodoxy' may be a benefit.

Well judging from what Stuart is saying they will both continue on the wing against Italy...and rightfully so.

Aside from Ashton (who im not sure what form he is in) Yarde and Wade havent really showed us what form they are in to warrant dropping May or Nowell.

Whilst Italy should not be underestimated in any way or form, this is the still a game where i would hope the wingers get a few more oppertunities to show what they can do.

jbeadlesbigrighthand with May's injury coming so early we had two full backs on. You might say well Goode shouldn't have been on the bench - not many other options really.

May's injury hugely impacted the game.

You say Nowell and May have had good all round games. Both have got themselves isolated and turned over.

Nowell has not scored 1 try this season in any competition.

Wingers first and foremost should be finishers. Neither May and Nowell have delivered in this area.

You are right.Perhaps I should be less harsh on the likes of Eastmond. Perhaps he is good enough for England.

quinsforever May going off did have an impact on the match.

Has any of Burrell's success been down to the wingers? I don't think so.

Burrell has been scoring because he's been putting himself in the positions to score with his positional play and support running.

Beshocked, I'm being largely devil's advocate here, but you were always very stoic in your support of Ashton when he was underfire. Criticism of not scoring tries, being isolated, missing tackles, etc were all levelled at Ashton, so how does this differ with May and Nowell?


Neither May or Nowell have had great games so far, however, they have both show huge potential and there is no doubt their play has given a far more attacking edge to the back 3. They are both young and will continue to make mistakes, but I sincerely hope SL sticks with them and based upon current reports both will start against Italy. With Yarde and Wade to return these 4 could be fighting it out for a number of years to come. Rather than criticise May and Nowell I am rather pleased about the strength in depth we now have.

I don't think it was the claim that May going off impacted the game that people objected to beshocked, it was the (apparent) insinuation that it was his fault (I am not sure if you meant it like that but that is how it read). A player can't help if his nose gets broken and he has to go off so any thought that he could be blamed for the defeat is probably not fair.

B,

May going off had an impact, we all accept that. Your words suggested that he should be blamed for that which is what people were objecting to.

Burrell has been where, say, Ashton would have been under Johnson. Lancaster though likes his wings to hug the touchlines and run the ball back from deep. Which they have done. As a requirement it neither makes for lots of tries, nor suit finishers. Bomber has shown time and time again he likes auxilliary full backs on the wing.

I have my doubts about both wingers and had Yarde and Wade not got injured just before the australia game - well they would probably have been in the team now. However I have no doubts that the Wingers are fulfilling the game plan as set down by the coaching staff.

Side note Leading try scorers in Lancasters reign:

Manu 6
Care 4
Ashton, Burrell, Twelvetrees, Youngs 3