Manu Tuilagi and Englands Midfield

by Geordie Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Been having a discussion about Manu on another thread and i thought id open it up to everyone to see your opinons?

It seems to me that almost 100% on here are simply assuming Manu will walk back in to the England team.

Is Manu simply that good that he can do that, over those currently in the midfield? Is he Englands superstar player that they cant do without?

What about his competition? He has the power game..but what if Elliott Daly was to move back permanently to 13?

Many are advocating a midfield of

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
It has huge power...but possibly missing a little guile?

Im merely putting out there...might the following have more balance?

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly (once hes back playing permanently at 13)

by **LondonTiger** Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:10 pm

I have no idea who he has passed to, but certainly with 18 passes in his first 4 matches he has passed more than Manu usually seems to.

by dummy_half Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:29 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I have no idea who he has passed to, but certainly with 18 passes in his first 4 matches he has passed more than Manu usually seems to.

The whole team is passing the ball more anyway, as much for tactical reasons as to do with personnel. I bet Dylan Hartley (as one example) has passed the ball more in any two games this year than he did in the previous two 6Ns championships combined.

by Poorfour Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:33 pm

Let's have a bit of perspective here. Manu has unique physical attributes and what he does is something no-one else does as well, but he has his shortcomings. Ben Kay jokes that at school the Tuilagis would settle disputes by charging at each other with the ball, so he never learned to step or pass, and there's more than a grain of truth to that.

Burrell isn't the same physical threat but from what I have seen he offers a much more rounded skill set. It's not a given to me that Manu would come straight back in, just as it's not a given that Croft would displace either Wood or Robshaw. Which said, I would like to see Burrell and Tuilagi tried together.

by lostinwales Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:39 pm

Poorfour wrote:Let's have a bit of perspective here. Manu has unique physical attributes and what he does is something no-one else does as well, but he has his shortcomings. Ben Kay jokes that at school the Tuilagis would settle disputes by charging at each other with the ball, so he never learned to step or pass, and there's more than a grain of truth to that.

Burrell isn't the same physical threat but from what I have seen he offers a much more rounded skill set. It's not a given to me that Manu would come straight back in, just as it's not a given that Croft would displace either Wood or Robshaw. Which said, I would like to see Burrell and Tuilagi tried together.

But Manu does step, and he does have acceleration. The default is not stepping but it can be devastating when he does, as much because people dont expect any subtlety from his play

by Scratch Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:45 pm

Poorfour wrote:Let's have a bit of perspective here. Manu has unique physical attributes and what he does is something no-one else does as well, but he has his shortcomings. Ben Kay jokes that at school the Tuilagis would settle disputes by charging at each other with the ball, so he never learned to step or pass, and there's more than a grain of truth to that.

Burrell isn't the same physical threat but from what I have seen he offers a much more rounded skill set. It's not a given to me that Manu would come straight back in, just as it's not a given that Croft would displace either Wood or Robshaw. Which said, I would like to see Burrell and Tuilagi tried together.

Aren't they a bit similar…..the best centre combos have contrasting skillets, Guscott and Carling, Horan and Little, Morecambe and Wise, Greenwood and Tindall (that hurts) I don't think they'd click…..wonder if 36 is the unseen hero in Burrell's meteoric rise. He doesn't do the fancy stuff but he does add a playmaker's vision

by HammerofThunor Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:48 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Let's have a bit of perspective here. Manu has unique physical attributes and what he does is something no-one else does as well, but he has his shortcomings. Ben Kay jokes that at school the Tuilagis would settle disputes by charging at each other with the ball, so he never learned to step or pass, and there's more than a grain of truth to that.

Burrell isn't the same physical threat but from what I have seen he offers a much more rounded skill set. It's not a given to me that Manu would come straight back in, just as it's not a given that Croft would displace either Wood or Robshaw. Which said, I would like to see Burrell and Tuilagi tried together.

But Manu does step, and he does have acceleration. The default is not stepping but it can be devastating when he does, as much because people dont expect any subtlety from his play

He also passes. Unfortunately there is often no-one to pass to (who isn't isolated on his wing with 2 or 3 defenders). When Tuilagi makes breaks and someone actually supports him he makes accurate long and short passes.

by Eustace H Plimsoll Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:48 pm

Let's have a bit of perspective here. Manu has unique physical attributes and what he does is something no-one else does as well, but he has his shortcomings. Ben Kay jokes that at school the Tuilagis would settle disputes by charging at each other with the ball, so he never learned to step or pass, and there's more than a grain of truth to that. wrote:

I don't think there is much truth to that. Manu's not primarily a distributor, and may take contact too often, but he's got a decent pass and I've seen him make plenty of deft offloads on his time. He's also definitely got a step.

by Chjw131 Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:45 pm

Far too much characterisation of most players it would seem. MT has the skills to pass and step, albeit he doesn't use them pre-contact as often as people think he should.

He is exceptional in the sense that he's a better carrier than almost any other outside back in world rugby. He's not got winger's pace but he's reasonably quick. I have seen him pass well both short and long in games.

All he's really lacking is maturity in his play and a kicking game. Lest we forget he's just 22! With some close attention to his skills he could make a truly exceptional OC.

by Chjw131 Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:49 pm

I think using him on the wing would be a mistake with the current options we have at centre. Were we to play a 12. B Twelvetrees 13. E Daly/H Trinder 14. M Tuilagi sort of set-up that could be a different matter; but there's a real advantage in having a 36/MT centre pairing and then the pace of May/Wade/Yarde out wide.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:50 pm

I would still love to see Burrell/Tuilagi in a backline of:

11. Yarde
12. Burrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15 Brown

by **LondonTiger** Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:52 pm

Chjw131 wrote:All he's really lacking is maturity in his play and a kicking game. Lest we forget he's just 22! With some close attention to his skills he could make a truly exceptional OC.

I was desperate to see what he had learnt on the Lions tour. Training every day with Brian O'Driscoll would you hope have taught him something. Sadly since that tour he has been limited to two 70 minute appearances against Newcastle.

by Chjw131 Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:07 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Chjw131 wrote:All he's really lacking is maturity in his play and a kicking game. Lest we forget he's just 22! With some close attention to his skills he could make a truly exceptional OC.

I was desperate to see what he had learnt on the Lions tour. Training every day with Brian O'Driscoll would you hope have taught him something. Sadly since that tour he has been limited to two 70 minute appearances against Newcastle.

Indeed look what it's done for Farrell.

MT is one of those players who has the potential to be 'Gold Standard'. Whilst SCW's constant blathering about '03 and the Olympics drives me round the twist he has a good point and it's something Lancaster pointed out pre-Lions tour. We need 7 or 8 truly exceptional players. Those with that potential are starting to show signs of being able to reach those heights. As I see it those are:

1. A Corbisiero 4. J Launchbury 5. C Lawes 6. T Wood 8. B Vunipola 8. B Morgan 9. D Care 9. B Youngs 13. M Tuilagi 14. C Wade 15. M Brown

I'm not calling these players World Class but this group has the most potential of all to go on and be those stand-out players in their positions. There are others with potential like George Ford who haven't yet had a chance but these guys have had several Tests and look like they have plenty of room to grow. MT is a key part of that team.

by dummy_half Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
I was desperate to see what he had learnt on the Lions tour. Training every day with Brian O'Driscoll would you hope have taught him something. Sadly since that tour he has been limited to two 70 minute appearances against Newcastle.

During the first of which he got quite a bit of joy simply by running oer his opposite number. From my recollection of the highlights, it was something of a 'man against boy' mismatch, so Manu was never going to need to show any subtlety.

by dummy_half Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:17 pm

Chjw131 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Chjw131 wrote:All he's really lacking is maturity in his play and a kicking game. Lest we forget he's just 22! With some close attention to his skills he could make a truly exceptional OC.

I was desperate to see what he had learnt on the Lions tour. Training every day with Brian O'Driscoll would you hope have taught him something. Sadly since that tour he has been limited to two 70 minute appearances against Newcastle.

Indeed look what it's done for Farrell.

MT is one of those players who has the potential to be 'Gold Standard'. Whilst SCW's constant blathering about '03 and the Olympics drives me round the twist he has a good point and it's something Lancaster pointed out pre-Lions tour. We need 7 or 8 truly exceptional players. Those with that potential are starting to show signs of being able to reach those heights. As I see it those are:

1. A Corbisiero 4. J Launchbury 5. C Lawes 6. T Wood 8. B Vunipola 8. B Morgan 9. D Care 9. B Youngs 13. M Tuilagi 14. C Wade 15. M Brown

I'm not calling these players World Class but this group has the most potential of all to go on and be those stand-out players in their positions. There are others with potential like George Ford who haven't yet had a chance but these guys have had several Tests and look like they have plenty of room to grow. MT is a key part of that team.

Harsh to exclude Robshaw - he's been one of our most consistent performers for the last 2 years. Maybe a yard short of pace to ever be a genuinely world class 7 in the McCaw league, but he's certainly a very good international player. Dan Cole as well, prior to his injury. I'd also make a case for Farrell - playing far better this year in terms of getting the attack moving as well as being a good tactical kicker. Too soon to include Wade though - he may prove that he belongs on that list, but he's yet to play an AI or 6Ns game.

I recall Campese once saying that to be a RWC winning side you needed 5 genuinely world class players, the next 5 to be very good and then the rest to be decent international quality performers. At the moment I think we are a bit short in the absolutely world class department, although we have some younger players heading rapidly in that direction (Launchbury, Billy V, possibly Manu) and a couple of older players who are getting close while at the top of their form at the moment (Brown, Care).

by Chjw131 Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:24 pm

dummy_half wrote:
Chjw131 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Chjw131 wrote:All he's really lacking is maturity in his play and a kicking game. Lest we forget he's just 22! With some close attention to his skills he could make a truly exceptional OC.

I was desperate to see what he had learnt on the Lions tour. Training every day with Brian O'Driscoll would you hope have taught him something. Sadly since that tour he has been limited to two 70 minute appearances against Newcastle.

Indeed look what it's done for Farrell.

MT is one of those players who has the potential to be 'Gold Standard'. Whilst SCW's constant blathering about '03 and the Olympics drives me round the twist he has a good point and it's something Lancaster pointed out pre-Lions tour. We need 7 or 8 truly exceptional players. Those with that potential are starting to show signs of being able to reach those heights. As I see it those are:

1. A Corbisiero 4. J Launchbury 5. C Lawes 6. T Wood 8. B Vunipola 8. B Morgan 9. D Care 9. B Youngs 13. M Tuilagi 14. C Wade 15. M Brown

I'm not calling these players World Class but this group has the most potential of all to go on and be those stand-out players in their positions. There are others with potential like George Ford who haven't yet had a chance but these guys have had several Tests and look like they have plenty of room to grow. MT is a key part of that team.

Harsh to exclude Robshaw - he's been one of our most consistent performers for the last 2 years. Maybe a yard short of pace to ever be a genuinely world class 7 in the McCaw league, but he's certainly a very good international player. Dan Cole as well, prior to his injury. I'd also make a case for Farrell - playing far better this year in terms of getting the attack moving as well as being a good tactical kicker. Too soon to include Wade though - he may prove that he belongs on that list, but he's yet to play an AI or 6Ns game.

I recall Campese once saying that to be a RWC winning side you needed 5 genuinely world class players, the next 5 to be very good and then the rest to be decent international quality performers. At the moment I think we are a bit short in the absolutely world class department, although we have some younger players heading rapidly in that direction (Launchbury, Billy V, possibly Manu) and a couple of older players who are getting close while at the top of their form at the moment (Brown, Care).

Huge credit must go to Robshaw and Wood who've been at the heart of our transformation from a poor breakdown side to one that is really of high quality in that department.

I agree that Robshaw has been a very high performer and with real consistency but as you say yourself he's not got the natural attributes to knock the best off their spots and that's why I didn't include him.

Likewise Farrell would still be behind a number of fly-halfs despite being far better this season, as I pointed out above. The players I have listed I feel, could challenge the perceived best in their positions at the moment. Wade it's perhaps a little early for but he has that exceptional skill set.

by Geordie Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:28 pm

I would have Robshaw against any of the 7's in the world at the moment no worries. And Wood at 6...and Billy or Ben Morgan at 8.

In fact i wouldnt swap our back row for anyones at the moment...and its been a LONG time since i said that!

by Chjw131 Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:32 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I would have Robshaw against any of the 7's in the world at the moment no worries. And Wood at 6...and Billy or Ben Morgan at 8.

In fact i wouldnt swap our back row for anyones at the moment...and its been a LONG time since i said that!

Agree, I think they're developing into something to rival any BR we've had including the holy trinity.

I have to say though a BR of: 6. W Alberts 7. F Louw 8. D Vermulen has got to be one of the best out there at the moment.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:32 pm

We may not have many genuine world class players but some have put in world class performances.

Lawes, Launchbury, Billy V, Care, Brown have produced outstanding displays.

by Geordie Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:35 pm

I have to say though a BR of: 6. W Alberts 7. F Louw 8. D Vermulen has got to be one of the best out there at the moment.

Yes it is CHJW, but i still wouldnt swap it for ours.

Sarge i agree some performances have been right up there....and the second row combo have deserved the praise in particular...

by Poorfour Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:39 pm

I'm not sure I buy the "world class player" argument. I have increasingly come to believe that with very few exceptions players put in world class performances by being part of a unit that works really well together. You only need to look at Sunday for an example.

In the past 12 months essentially the same England pack has played all of the top sides except South Africa, and I would say that as a unit they have achieved parity or better against all of them. And that's been achieved with Corbisiero, Cole and Billy V out for quite a bit of the time. They haven't necessarily bossed every aspect of the game, but they have done enough in each area and been ahead in some.

England's losses have essentially come through conceding early points out wide, something that is already improving and will get better if Yarde comes back into the squad (not as sure about Wade as a lot on here seem to be). OK, and some poor lineout work in Paris, but we've done that to death already, and it wouldn't have mattered if we'd not conceded the early tries.

If they can maintain that standard in New Zealand and through the Autumn Internationals, and the back division continues to gel, I believe we have good enough players to have a very good run at the RWC.

by quinsforever Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:43 pm

I dont think there would be many if any english players in a world XV at the moment, as many of our best performers have very few caps, so arent that widely known. Look at Brown 6months ago. was just me CJ and yappy who knew Wink

But what i do think is interesting is that if you do draw up a world XV, there would be a surprisingly large number of our current squad who would be pushing hard for inclusion, or only marginally worse than the very best.

by ChequeredJersey Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:44 pm

For those giving Nowell and May a bit of flack, some food for thought:

One of the defining things in this England side is the way they've copped criticism then shown their critics to be wrong. Marler and Mako have copped huge flack for their early displays and scrummaging, that's only recently dying down. Hartley for his temperament and the way he could carry as well as he has done for Saints. I'd say since the AIs he's proven them wrong. Wilson worried everyone after his unfit display vs Ireland. Lawes got a lot of criticism including from me. Some people are barely realising that rather than a poor captain and sub-par 7, Robshaw is one of the best players in the world. Morgan played 80 mins without looking out of puff on Sunday. People thought Care might never play his game for England or mature past the man-child who got carded against Ireland and in the trouble off the pitch. People questioned Farrell's ability to learn to lead a creative line. I've criticised 36 and he played his best match last week. Brown was seen as too slow and "solid" and fiery to be a top 15. They've all proven people wrong. Give the wings time to do the same

by Chjw131 Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:01 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:For those giving Nowell and May a bit of flack, some food for thought:

One of the defining things in this England side is the way they've copped criticism then shown their critics to be wrong. Marler and Mako have copped huge flack for their early displays and scrummaging, that's only recently dying down. Hartley for his temperament and the way he could carry as well as he has done for Saints. I'd say since the AIs he's proven them wrong. Wilson worried everyone after his unfit display vs Ireland. Lawes got a lot of criticism including from me. Some people are barely realising that rather than a poor captain and sub-par 7, Robshaw is one of the best players in the world. Morgan played 80 mins without looking out of puff on Sunday. People thought Care might never play his game for England or mature past the man-child who got carded against Ireland and in the trouble off the pitch. People questioned Farrell's ability to learn to lead a creative line. I've criticised 36 and he played his best match last week. Brown was seen as too slow and "solid" and fiery to be a top 15. They've all proven people wrong. Give the wings time to do the same

All true. Is that because of the number of false dawns many have touted before though? And the generally poor international standard we've played at for a long while?

Quite apart from English arrogance I think the majority of sane posters have erred on the side of caution with this team and its players, as demonstrated above.

As far as 'World Class' goes I deliberately tried to stay away from that moniker. What I was saying was that that list of players are the ones who are now discernibly showing the potential to go on and be some of the best in their positions.

As far as units go I think that's a good point. Both individual and team performances are lifted by the collective. It's human nature to point out the individual but the brilliant thing about rugby is that it's the epitome of a team game. Something which some posters can overlook.

by Barney McGrew did it Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:38 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:For those giving Nowell and May a bit of flack, some food for thought:

One of the defining things in this England side is the way they've copped criticism then shown their critics to be wrong. Marler and Mako have copped huge flack for their early displays and scrummaging, that's only recently dying down. Hartley for his temperament and the way he could carry as well as he has done for Saints. I'd say since the AIs he's proven them wrong. Wilson worried everyone after his unfit display vs Ireland. Lawes got a lot of criticism including from me. Some people are barely realising that rather than a poor captain and sub-par 7, Robshaw is one of the best players in the world. Morgan played 80 mins without looking out of puff on Sunday. People thought Care might never play his game for England or mature past the man-child who got carded against Ireland and in the trouble off the pitch. People questioned Farrell's ability to learn to lead a creative line. I've criticised 36 and he played his best match last week. Brown was seen as too slow and "solid" and fiery to be a top 15. They've all proven people wrong. Give the wings time to do the same

That was the most remarkable (and welcome) thing of the weekend, nay the season. Mind you he's been in bed ever since.

by kingelderfield Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:59 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would still love to see Burrell/Tuilagi in a backline of:

10. Cipriani

11. Yarde
12. Burrell
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15 Brown

by lostinwales Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:51 pm

I think about Robshaw and yes he doesnt have top pace. But he does have a fantastic engine, he is absolutely always at the heart of the battle and his work rate is insane. He has great anticipation. His overall skill set is great.

The most highly rated 7's tend to have good games and bad (Warburton is a good example). Robshaw so rarely has a bad game its just crazy

He is the beating heart of this team and the way they play now is a reflection of his strengths

by Scrumpy Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:57 pm

That is why he is the captain.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:21 am

The Independent wrote:England are themselves more confident in attack and they are fit enough to make it count at the back end of the game, wherever Tuilagi ends up playing. Lancaster is highly interested in giving the outside centre a run on the wing, but if circumstances should dictate otherwise, Tuilagi will fill in for either Billy Twelvetrees or Luther Burrell in midfield.

"It depends on how the game plays out," the coach explained. "If anything happens to Twelvetrees, we could bring George Ford [the 20-year-old Bath outside-half] off the bench and shift Owen Farrell to No 12, but it's more likely that we'd bring Burrell inside and play Tuilagi alongside him.

"However, wing is definitely an option for Manu. If you look at his training times over 10 metres and 40 metres he's one of the quickest in the group, and while he would be a different kind of wing to Jonny May or Christian Wade, he'd be a lot like his brother – and he didn't do a bad job, did he?"

by dummy_half Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:42 am

I thought Lancaster had learnt from last year about playing players out of their specialist positions.

Wing has a very different requirement in defence from centre, and I can see any competent side just continually kicking the ball in behind Manu on the wing and getting him to turn. As he has not much of a kicking game, he'd have to work hard to get out of the corners.

I don't mind the idea of him as injury cover for a winger, but I wouldn't put him out there in preference to in midfield.

by Jimpy Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:57 am

dummy_half wrote:I thought Lancaster had learnt from last year about playing players out of their specialist positions.

Wing has a very different requirement in defence from centre, and I can see any competent side just continually kicking the ball in behind Manu on the wing and getting him to turn. As he has not much of a kicking game, he'd have to work hard to get out of the corners.

I don't mind the idea of him as injury cover for a winger, but I wouldn't put him out there in preference to in midfield.

I tend to agree. Now, i'm Leicester through and through and Alex Tuilagi was one of my heroes. He struck the fear of god into opposition players if ever he got a free run down the wing, even from a standing start he could trample opposing players as though they were five year olds with ricketts.

But. He wasn't the quickest and made some howlers defensively, quite a few in fact and one had to accept that for every thundering run, he might give a way a penalty for some infringement or other. SL is right, Manu is very like gis brother, and that's the exact reason why he shouldn't be stuck out on the wing unless it's emergency cover. Manu is much more effective taking an inside crash ball to break the defensive line and then off-loading (yes, he can offload you know) to the winger or another support player. It worries me slightly that SL may have aspirations for Manu on the wing because of his brother's legacy, which actually, isn't that stellar when you look at it in the cold light of day.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:31 am

Agreed, Manu is not a winger. Why you'd move England's most explosive centre to a position where his defence stops being a strength and where he is less likely to show his explosive attacking play is beyond me. We have two on form centres and a world class centre coming back from injury, make them compete for the places rather than crow bar them into the starting 15.

I remember the Alessana kicking game Manu has somewhat inherited. The ball goes a long way but where it lands is anyone's guess. Manu has a surprisingly good grubber mind, rarely used, I remember vs Sarries him running out of his own 22 and grubbering through for Alex Goode to fearfully push into touch as Manu loomed. That set up the position for the attack and Murphy's drop goal. Wouldn't want to see him trying that vs the All Blacks though also worth noting he was playing centre at the time.

SL has got Manu on the bench for the simple reason that we might need points late in the game and Manu tends to come up with the goods.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:40 am

I think Lancaster would be thinking more along the lines of could Tuilagi cover the position even due to injury. He must be better as cover to wing than Brown as it weakens us so much moving him from full back. I don't think we'll ever see him starting against Aus etc.

Hope that Lancaster's call to finish strongly comes to fruitition as we've seen too many times where England have strung some good performances together to suffer through the last game. It will put down a good marker if we do manage to beat Italy by 20-30 points which I think is realistic. Can't see the 50 point margin being reached in a month of Sundays though.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:05 am

Jimpy the difference with Manu is that hes a professional. Alice had a habit of only bothering for the big games, and switching off at times even then.

by quinsforever Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:14 am

as long as there are no ferries or prime ministers around...

by Jimpy Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:17 am

quinsforever wrote:as long as there are no ferries or prime ministers around...

Or Chris Ashton to poleaxe.

by pledgeX Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:21 am

I like the sound of Manu on the bench as I reckon he'd do a good job covering the wings and obviously can cover either centre comfortably.

My concern is what if something happens to Mike Brown? No way I'd want Manu at the back. I suppose Johnny May would move back there? Has he played at all at fullback for Glos?

by quinsforever Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:22 am

nowell plays FB more than wing

by **LondonTiger** Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:32 am

Perhaps Lancaster has seen this video too often.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXvVwlO1JeM

by ChequeredJersey Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:34 am

Both Nowell and May have played plenty of fullback

by lostinwales Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:35 am

LondonTiger wrote:Perhaps Lancaster has seen this video too often.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXvVwlO1JeM

More great defensive work from Goode there then...

by formerly known as Sam Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:44 am

Yeah Nowell or May would easily cover full back with Manu on the wing. Hope it doesn't come to that as Brown has been our best player. Big question will be who do we sub if we're searching for a try? Burrell who has been prolific but has neither played 12 for England or with Manu or Twelvetrees who has been in patchy form but is used to playing 12 with Farrell and knows Manu.

by yappysnap Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:21 pm

To me the idea of Manu on the wing if we're a few scores ahead has merit. Obviously it's a lottery as to if we ever get to that stage but come on people this is Italy! If we're not at least getting 7 points clear of them then there should still be some real concerns!

If it's close and tight then I'd look at subbing a centre and bringing Manu on at 13, if we're ahead by a fair amount then Manu on the wing could be very good.

He is very quick and Italy's kicking game is pretty poor.

by yappysnap Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:22 pm

Oh and if it is tight I'd probably take out Burrell, he's a good finisher but I think 36 has created nearly all his chances for him.

Still give me 5 mins and i'll change my mind!

by Chjw131 Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:54 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yeah Nowell or May would easily cover full back with Manu on the wing. Hope it doesn't come to that as Brown has been our best player. Big question will be who do we sub if we're searching for a try? Burrell who has been prolific but has neither played 12 for England or with Manu or Twelvetrees who has been in patchy form but is used to playing 12 with Farrell and knows Manu.

My preference would be to sub Burrell straight for Manu but I think SL has designs on a Burrell/Tuilagi partnership. We're then back to no kicking option in the centres and regardless of what is said of Burrell's distribution, which I accept isn't bad, he doesn't have the skills of 36 or the vision.

by TopHat24/7 Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:12 pm

Those famed skills and vision that have reared their heads once in 4 games so far in the 6N......

by Poorfour Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:15 pm

yappysnap wrote:Oh and if it is tight I'd probably take out Burrell, he's a good finisher but I think 36 has created nearly all his chances for him.

Still give me 5 mins and i'll change my mind!

Well, isn't that the IC's job? I would like to see Burrell move inside and show us what he can do there.

I just hope that the support lines are good. We have enough instigators in Care, Twelvetrees and even Robshaw or Farrell to be able to release a strike runner like Manu, Burrell or Mako into a half gap. Get Brown, Nowell or May running off that and the tries will come.

by Geordie Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:24 pm

Poorfour wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Oh and if it is tight I'd probably take out Burrell, he's a good finisher but I think 36 has created nearly all his chances for him.

Still give me 5 mins and i'll change my mind!

Well, isn't that the IC's job? I would like to see Burrell move inside and show us what he can do there.

I just hope that the support lines are good. We have enough instigators in Care, Twelvetrees and even Robshaw or Farrell to be able to release a strike runner like Manu, Burrell or Mako into a half gap. Get Brown, Nowell or May running off that and the tries will come.

Not only the IC's job Poorfour. All players should be responsible for creating tries...and the IC has a wider role than just creating tries.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:27 pm

I get the feeling that Master Twelvetrees is always 80 minutes away from deification or damnation.

In the run-up to the Wales game, the mob that we call 606 was ready pitchforks in hand. One decent performance later and that is all forgotten.

by Chjw131 Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:31 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Those famed skills and vision that have reared their heads once in 4 games so far in the 6N......

That's simply untrue i'm afraid. Just providing the scoring pass/move is not the sole job of an inside centre. His defence, organisation, ability to stand at first receiver, kicking and passing has given England more options in this tournament.

Yes the lad has made mistakes and taken the wrong option at times. That is unsurprising. With a run of games he will improve that element of his game. If you honestly think playing Burrell or Barritt over Twelvetrees would've resulted in a far better inside centre performance for England you are sadly deluded.

by Chjw131 Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:32 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I get the feeling that Master Twelvetrees is always 80 minutes away from deification or damnation.

In the run-up to the Wales game, the mob that we call 606 was ready pitchforks in hand. One decent performance later and that is all forgotten.

Indeed, I don't actually know where it comes from? Perhaps someone has latched onto some sloppy journalism somewhere.

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