Manu Tuilagi and Englands Midfield

First topic message reminder :

Been having a discussion about Manu on another thread and i thought id open it up to everyone to see your opinons?

It seems to me that almost 100% on here are simply assuming Manu will walk back in to the England team.

Is Manu simply that good that he can do that, over those currently in the midfield? Is he Englands superstar player that they cant do without?

What about his competition? He has the power game..but what if Elliott Daly was to move back permanently to 13?

Many are advocating a midfield of

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
It has huge power...but possibly missing a little guile?

Im merely putting out there...might the following have more balance?

10 Farrell
12 Burrell
13 Daly (once hes back playing permanently at 13)

36 did have a complete stormer on saturday though. he sent burrell over. and his offload to wilson was so perfectly timed and angled that wilson made 30m straight through their line.

i have not been a huge fan of his performances in the 6N prior to saturday, but to be fair to 36 he hasnt made any howlers. he just hadn't done anything particularly memorable.

if he's the kind of player who doesnt mess up, doesnt miss tackles, kicks well, and occasionally shows some distributional/grubber genius, i think we are in good shape.

i would like to see burrell at 12 too though. would be great if we have 3 such strong options as 36, burrell and manu at 12 and 13 with burrell equally capable of both positions.

Chjw131 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Those famed skills and vision that have reared their heads once in 4 games so far in the 6N......

That's simply untrue i'm afraid. Just providing the scoring pass/move is not the sole job of an inside centre. His defence, organisation, ability to stand at first receiver, kicking and passing has given England more options in this tournament.

Yes the lad has made mistakes and taken the wrong option at times. That is unsurprising. With a run of games he will improve that element of his game. If you honestly think playing Burrell or Barritt over Twelvetrees would've resulted in a far better inside centre performance for England you are sadly deluded.

Didn't mean 1 occurrence, meant 1 match (of four). Not being poor against Scotland doesn't count.

Good against Wales, only time I saw any serious effective creativity from him. Baritt would've been as good if not better in defence and we don't know about Burrell as he hasn't been played in his club position for England yet. Take out the Wales match and 36 has been pretty average, as best, offering little in attack and getting run over in defence too much. Basically for everything decent he does, he balances it out with something equally poor.

I want to see LB in his natural position with Manu outside him. See if Burrell can perform as capably as 36 in his favoured IC position with Manu as a more devastating 13. Only thing it'd miss is the kicking.

quinsforever wrote:36 did have a complete stormer on saturday though. he sent burrell over. and his offload to wilson was so perfectly timed and angled that wilson made 30m straight through their line.

i have not been a huge fan of his performances in the 6N prior to saturday, but to be fair to 36 he hasnt made any howlers. he just hadn't done anything particularly memorable.

Chucking it at Vunipola's feet when we had numbers over versus France?

Kicking into nowhere when again we had numbers/overlap versus France?

Dropping/fumbling a simple take when again, we had a great oppo (think v France)?

I am not against seeing Manu on the wing. He's been one of England's most potent attacking weapons - look at his try count. I think teams would fear him more than Nowell and May. I would say he's quick enough too.

Even though it's not his position for Leicester?

If we have Burrell and Tuilagi together in the centre, it would be interesting to also see what Ashton could do off them. I don't think he's a busted flush, and their style of play might well suit him.

It's difficult to know what the route back is for him. If playing well for Saracens was the ticket, then Strettle would be higher up the pecking order already. May and Nowell did enough, without ever shining, to stay well in contention, and it's likely Yarde and Wade are still in favour, so he might just have to stay fit and hope the others don't.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:36 did have a complete stormer on saturday though. he sent burrell over. and his offload to wilson was so perfectly timed and angled that wilson made 30m straight through their line.

i have not been a huge fan of his performances in the 6N prior to saturday, but to be fair to 36 he hasnt made any howlers. he just hadn't done anything particularly memorable.

Chucking it at Vunipola's feet when we had numbers over versus France?

Kicking into nowhere when again we had numbers/overlap versus France?

Dropping/fumbling a simple take when again, we had a great oppo (think v France)?

small errors. hardly howlers. and he has pretty much eliminated even those since the first game. i think they could all generally be bucketed in the "confidence" category for the france game.

after his performance against wales, and the good improvement in communication generally amongst the england 9-13 week on week, we have to stick with it and see where it goes. i'm a burrell fan, but wouldnt mind at all if burrell never gets to play 12 if 36 keeps on improving.

I've got nothing against Burrell at 12 and he has done extremely well in this team coming in at an unfamiliar position (recently). As i've said before it puts Tomkins' performance in some perspective.

It just seems to me that, whilst 36 makes mistakes at times, the knives are perpetually out for him. He has all the skills to be a great centre, I just hope we stick with him and allow him to grow into the role.

Incidentally it's looking interesting at Bath with Devoto winning the LV award, Eastmond coming on well and Burgess turning up soon. A lot of competition for the IC role there.

quinsforever, I'm a Burrell fan too but would welcome seeing these three being developed alongside each other with Burrell given an opportunity at 12 not necessarily instead of 36 but so we have some flexibility in the centres against injury, form drop off etc. I fully accept that these are maturing players with lots to gain from experience and skills to acquire/improve but even now all are showing that they offer different things and that's valuable in planning tactics or reacting to circumstances on within a game. 36 hasn't yet totally convinced me but he's getting there and I'm happier now with our centre options than I've been for a very long time, plus there are several others knocking on the door to keep them sharp and hungry.

So we've seen Burrell playing the best rugby of his career at 13, and plenty of people want to move him to 12 as a result? Isn't it possible that Burrell is a good 12 and an exceptional 13?

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing Tuilagi on the wing. He'll have more freedom to go looking for the ball when we are in possession.

Have you not been watching England in the last few years? When exactly have the wingers had freedom to roam? Wasn't that the main issue with Ashton, that he had to stay on his wing and his defence was Poopie? If Tuilagi is on the wing he'll be out on the wing.

HammerofThunor wrote:Have you not been watching England in the last few years? When exactly have the wingers had freedom to roam? Wasn't that the main issue with Ashton, that he had to stay on his wing and his defence was Poopie? If Tuilagi is on the wing he'll be out on the wing.

Care changes everything because he changes the point of attack, he loves to attack the breakdown and if he can link with a player like Tuilagi behind the defensive line it could be devastating

pretty rare that care's pass is the one that tuilagi at 13 would be running on to. and if he did the defense has lots of time to see it.

it's either flat miss pass from farrell, or deeper missed pass from farrell or flat pop pass from 36.

quinsforever wrote:pretty rare that care's pass is the one that tuilagi at 13 would be running on to. and if he did the defense has lots of time to see it.

it's either flat miss pass from farrell, or deeper missed pass from farrell or flat pop pass from 36.

Tuilago on the wing quoins, keep up

But Lancaster has shown over the years that he likes his wingers to stay on the wings they stretch the defence. It's been Burrell making the runs.

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:pretty rare that care's pass is the one that tuilagi at 13 would be running on to. and if he did the defense has lots of time to see it.

it's either flat miss pass from farrell, or deeper missed pass from farrell or flat pop pass from 36.

Tuilago on the wing quoins, keep up

if the winger is running onto care's passes then england are going to be playing so narrow that they will never break a defensive line. sounds like warrenball v2.

quinsforever wrote:

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:pretty rare that care's pass is the one that tuilagi at 13 would be running on to. and if he did the defense has lots of time to see it.

it's either flat miss pass from farrell, or deeper missed pass from farrell or flat pop pass from 36.

Tuilago on the wing quoins, keep up

if the winger is running onto care's passes then england are going to be playing so narrow that they will never break a defensive line. sounds like warrenball v2.

jeebus

care attacks breakdown, gets behind defensive line, manu off wing in support….got it now?

your background as a forward getting the better of you there. if care has already broken the line who cares who is in support - even wilson would be fine.

why dont you stick to wumming on the wales or wales vs threads. this thread has survived 800 posts without being hijacked by your snide, ill-informed posts.

can someone please ban this total tool? seriously. what is it gonna take?

oh and i'm going to save you the bother of reporting my post like you did everyone else's after you get reprimanded, and will report it myself

Not unusual for Manu to end up supporting a 9s break as he has a very annoying tendency to end up as a guard at rucks. Got to love the work rate but not where you want your most explosive player. Manu off the wing may have It's merits in an attacking sense, off the wing on Farrell's shoulder (even Owen can make that pass work on the gain line) and Oquera won't stop him.

DaveM, Burrell has been excellent for Saints at 12. Maybe It's that he's in the form of his life and his skill set allows him to play either centre position. Certainly Twelvetrees is similar as he broke the record for points scored by a single Tigers player in a game whilst playing 13 vs Wasps. Pace, power, can cut a nice line and defend well. What you need in a centre.

Twelvetrees was doing the goal kicking that day as I recall. Burrell has been playing well at 12 for Saints, but he wasn't showing anything like the form he has done for England at 13 - he's been a revelation.

Absolutely agree about Tuilagi, I want to see him taking pop passes off Farrell and making 15 metres, dragging players in. A quick recycle and then Twelvetrees can decide whether to release Burrell or the other wing whether to kick through or whether to attack the line himself. That is going to be hard to stop. And if the other wing is Wade, what a complete nightmare for the defence.

DaveM wrote:Twelvetrees was doing the goal kicking that day as I recall. Burrell has been playing well at 12 for Saints, but he wasn't showing anything like the form he has done for England at 13 - he's been a revelation.  

Absolutely agree about Tuilagi, I want to see him taking pop passes off Farrell and making 15 metres, dragging players in. A quick recycle and then Twelvetrees can decide whether to release Burrell or the other wing whether to kick through or whether to attack the line himself. That is going to be hard to stop. And if the other wing is Wade, what a complete nightmare for the defence.

I think Burrell is showing the same form for Saints. I think the difference is that Saints have terrific go-forwards that many players end up looking good that way. England have not had any consistent go-forwards in the centres for quite a while now that it seems a revelation.

Maybe we simply need more Saints in the England starting XV?
(authors note: this is a joke)

quinsforever wrote:

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:pretty rare that care's pass is the one that tuilagi at 13 would be running on to. and if he did the defense has lots of time to see it.

it's either flat miss pass from farrell, or deeper missed pass from farrell or flat pop pass from 36.

Tuilago on the wing quoins, keep up

if the winger is running onto care's passes then england are going to be playing so narrow that they will never break a defensive line. sounds like warrenball v2.

That's not true, blind side winger coming into the 9-10 or 10-12 gap is often used and can be an effective tactic. If the rest of the line is wide, it is perfect for creating an overlap or break through the centre. It is something I'd like to see England do, because then the options are- Care run, which can be followed up by a fix and pass to the winger. Care passes to the winger running at a gap which can be followed up by spinning the ball wide at the space that should open wider out. Care passes to Farrell who can either use the winger as inside runner or as a dummy and play a pass or move outwide. I'd also like to see us occasionally using the pivot too

I am sure the good Doctor will agree that Saints are spoilt for choice in the centres now (or will be after this week) Stephenson is coming on leaps and bounds, gone through the whole of the England junior ranks. He has proved good enough that we have hardly missed the form centre of the 6N. With Pisi back we will have a chance to play with LB at 13 as well.

I would have Stephenson as a bolter for 2015, he has a similar skill set to 36 but adds pace as well. He has scored 5 tries in 6 games for the U20s, not bad at all.

LB played a lot of his early rugby as 13, which is probably why he has adapted so easily. He is a lot more than just a battering ram that can run good lines, he has a lot of subtly about him when the occasion demands. I would love to see him play outside Tom S.

In my opinion he is the perfect foil for Manu, his pace will keep defences guessing, if they drift too wide to cover Manu, TS will be through the gap, he is that sort of player.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I am sure the good Doctor will agree that Saints are spoilt for choice in the centres now (or will be after this week) Stephenson is coming on leaps and bounds, gone through the whole of the England junior ranks. He has proved good enough that we have hardly missed the form centre of the 6N. With Pisi back we will have a chance to play with LB at 13 as well.

I would have Stephenson as a bolter for 2015, he has a similar skill set to 36 but adds pace as well. He has scored 5 tries in 6 games for the U20s, not bad at all.

LB played a lot of his early rugby as 13, which is probably why he has adapted so easily. He is a lot more than just a battering ram that can run good lines, he has a lot of subtly about him when the occasion demands. I would love to see him play outside Tom S.

In my opinion he is the perfect foil for Manu, his pace will keep defences guessing, if they drift too wide to cover Manu, TS will be through the gap, he is that sort of player.

The good doctor agrees 100%.
Our academy is doing wonders. And we finally have the depth we lacked in previous seasons. For me, with good talent from youth through the senior side, this is finally the season we have put relegation behind us once and for all.

There's no doubt Stephenson is a very exciting prospect, and will rival Twelvetrees over the next 5 years. Stephenson has the sort of game the England coaches are looking for in a 12. If Sam Hill can expand his game a bit he's also a possibility.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:pretty rare that care's pass is the one that tuilagi at 13 would be running on to. and if he did the defense has lots of time to see it.

it's either flat miss pass from farrell, or deeper missed pass from farrell or flat pop pass from 36.

Tuilago on the wing quoins, keep up

if the winger is running onto care's passes then england are going to be playing so narrow that they will never break a defensive line. sounds like warrenball v2.

That's not true, blind side winger coming into the 9-10 or 10-12 gap is often used and can be an effective tactic. If the rest of the line is wide, it is perfect for creating an overlap or break through the centre. It is something I'd like to see England do, because then the options are- Care run, which can be followed up by a fix and pass to the winger. Care passes to the winger running at a gap which can be followed up by spinning the ball wide at the space that should open wider out. Care passes to Farrell who can either use the winger as inside runner or as a dummy and play a pass or move outwide. I'd also like to see us occasionally using the pivot too

   

Manu should be developed as a winger who can switch to crash it up. I really have never seen the skills that others seem to. His physical attributes are too unique to ignore, but people keep saying he can offload. I've never ever seen him offload, and I don't mean like SBW, I mean at all. He bashes into someone, then recycles. He cannot kick and if he can pass, he chooses not to. He is extremely limited. Fantastic at what he does, but I don't think he should be considered a guaranteed starter

Hood83 wrote:Manu should be developed as a winger who can switch to crash it up. I really have never seen the skills that others seem to. His physical attributes are too unique to ignore, but people keep saying he can offload. I've never ever seen him offload, and I don't mean like SBW, I mean at all. He bashes into someone, then recycles. He cannot kick and if he can pass, he chooses not to. He is extremely limited. Fantastic at what he does, but I don't think he should be considered a guaranteed starter

You're clearly missing a lot then

Completely agree with Hood. The difference in skills with Burrell was stark. But Tuilagi has some unique attributes, and so I think he will become a regular on the wing. Otherwise he's the world's best impact sub.

If I heard it correctly Twelvetrees didn't train all week, but SL took Burrell off instead. That suggests to me the coaches don't want a Burrell/Tuilagi partnership - they want a distributor at 12, whether that is 36 or Farrell.

So you've never seen him offload? I think you need to watch him more before you make your mind up then. Just a suggestion, we are all free to make up our minds on limited information if we wish

Oh I've seen him off-load, but Burrell's skill set is far better. For me he's he better 13, given England want to play an expansive game. We have to find a way to make good use of Tuilagi's strengths though.

So you don't completely agree with Hood then

You know what? No problem at all having 2 good, different 13s. Daly for the trio and we are sorted there (cover for 12, wing and 15 between them too).

Ok, ok. I 90% agree with him.

It'll be interesting to see if Daly is a regular at 13 for Wasps next year. In a couple of years' time I think Tomkins will be pushing hard. Indeed this years' u20's first choice partnership of Stephenson and Tomkins could be the senior partnership.

36 bloody useless again, ridiculous having a proven (at club level) 12 on the field, who's having a storming game and tournament, and taking him off so that 36 (a guy with 1 good game and a host of errors in the tourney [and game!!] so far) can be left on the field to accommodate Manu.

Got to wonder whether 36 has incriminating photos of SL or something.

ChequeredJersey wrote:You know what? No problem at all having 2 good, different 13s. Daly for the trio and we are sorted there (cover for 12, wing and 15 between them too).

Agree completely with this CJ. Especially that we need to bring Daly in for the summer tour. Lancs has made it clear he wants the centres to work as one runner and one distributor (although both options should be able to do both when needed). Daly would allow us to put the kicking and distributing option at 13 rather than 12 if we wanted. Also offers a great option from the bench with the pace and skills to play in the back three if needed as well.

9.Care + two of Youngs, Dickson, Wigglesworth and Robson - Robson is an outside punt from myself. I'd love to see him given the third spot if Youngs can find form and claim the second.
10.Farrell, Ford + one of Cipriani, Burns or Myler
11.May, Yarde
12.Twelvtrees, Eastmond
13.Burrell, Tuilagi, Daly
14.Nowell, Wade
15.Brown, Foden, Watson

Those are how I'd like to see the backs travel to NZ. With Burrell's form and ability to play 12 I think it's time to get Daly and Eastmond in the squad. Both can offer a different approach in midfield and would be great bench options. Plus their versatility would make them very useful for tour games.

I just can't see Eastmond making it as an international 12. Excellent player, but I think he's just too small.

Totally agree Dave.

Twelvetrees and Burrell give us strong options at 12.

I reckon 12T was a darn sight batter than a lot of posters are making out. However I would rather have seen what Burrell could have done at 12, with the threat of Manu outside him.

Players are always better than their detractors say and worse than their champions say. It's normal. Twelvetrees has been decent but not flawless. Not done enough be 100% certainty but enough to continue with. Much like Farrell from his first games and he's developed nicely.

HammerofThunor wrote:Players are always better than their detractors say and worse than their champions say. It's normal. Twelvetrees has been decent but not flawless. Not done enough be 100% certainty but enough to continue with. Much like Farrell from his first games and he's developed nicely.

  

Burrell is a good 12, but doesn't play the way the England coaches want England to play. Today they could have tried him at 12, but they preferred to end up with Farrell there. This just backs up what they've said in public, that they want a full-on distributor at 12. I can imagine Burrell playing at 12 as a result of injuries during a game, but beyond that I think it would place too much pressure on Farrell (I don't think it's any coincidence that Farrell has improved massively with a distributor outside him).

Farrell was brilliant today. If it wasnt for the penalty he gave away near the end it would have been near flawless. He did everything from scoring a try, not missing a kick to cover tackles.

When that penalty came about he was already really angry after we lost the ball from his carry. Maybe the aggro did carry over for too long.

DaveM wrote:Burrell is a good 12, but doesn't play the way the England coaches want England to play. Today they could have tried him at 12, but they preferred to end up with Farrell there. This just backs up what they've said in public, that they want a full-on distributor at 12. I can imagine Burrell playing at 12 as a result of injuries during a game, but beyond that I think it would place too much pressure on Farrell (I don't think it's any coincidence that Farrell has improved massively with a distributor outside him).

But Tuilagi doesn't play the way England use their wingers but you want him there.

If you have Manu in the team you want him with ball in hand as much as possible. And you need to fine him every time he gets sucked into a ruck and isnt available to carry when the ball comes out. Wing is too far out of the way for him, and I dont trust his kicking game enough there either.

SL has said publically he thinks Tuilagi can play wing, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. I can easily imagine Manu scoring Nowell's try today, and if he'd received the ball the way May did a couple of times today I think it would have led to tries. Jinking inside isn't really his style.

HammerofThunor wrote:

DaveM wrote:Burrell is a good 12, but doesn't play the way the England coaches want England to play. Today they could have tried him at 12, but they preferred to end up with Farrell there. This just backs up what they've said in public, that they want a full-on distributor at 12. I can imagine Burrell playing at 12 as a result of injuries during a game, but beyond that I think it would place too much pressure on Farrell (I don't think it's any coincidence that Farrell has improved massively with a distributor outside him).

But Tuilagi doesn't play the way England use their wingers but you want him there.

Perhaps England are set on their 12 style but not wings

Pitbull really is an embarasssment