It's done like this, boys.

First topic message reminder :

Thought this was interesting:

https://youtu.be/2VQJvmofgG8

1:48 - Quade Cooper and new Red's PNG pace man Aiden Toua demonstrate to Sexton et al. How to execute the cut out pass to exploit a compressed defense.

It's all about execution.

Some exciting talent on display! Astonishing finishing by contrast to some of the points left on the field in the 6N last weekend.

Notch maybe we should move this to the general board?

mystiroakey wrote:All i know is that I would be more confident of England scoring a try v Aus than i would a highly drilled defensive ireland.

I would also expect the odd try v NZ due to there expansive game.. I just dont expect to score more.

BUt when it comes to SA that's a different matter entirely.

Sorry am I going to international again

I think you will find Mysti that when the attack is good enough South Africas defence wasnt too sharp. If you look at Ellis park last year all the AB tries were scored by passing and running in amongst the Bok defence until it fell off. Ben Smiths try, Messams before half time, Barrets, all scored through running and passing amongst missed tackles all over the place. The Bok tries required several bits of individual brilliance from Habana, Luow and Vermulens rather than scored as a result of poor defence, JDV's smash over Barret aside.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:There's also the personal elements I'm looking at.

The number one is awareness. Now in the clip when the young fellow-me-lad from the highlanders gets back foot ball squirted out from the ruck, he looks up assesses his options and decided the counter attack is on. He has no support (initially) Nd could easily be isolated. Now I bet pounds that in the same situation in the 6N 9 times from 10 we'd see a kick for a corner or a pass to a lump to take the ball back into contact, or more than likely an up and under.

you cant really compare S15 with 6N. completely different risk/reward profile for individual decision-making for a start.

Only in that super rugby offers bonus points for scoring 4+ tries.

I'm not sure poor awareness and lack of execution skills is a product of a risk curve, it's a product of poor training and fear.

Pleae bare in mind not just the risk reward factor, but you have to consider the step up between 6N and Super rugby, it a hugely different kettle of fish.

I've already explained to you the difference between system and individual failures, which tries merit praise and the few that don't, yet you don't seem to want to debate rationally, you'd rather whine about the thread being moved.

Not that I'm arguing this as a case, but if Super rugby wanted to discad the myth that defencively it's bad, surely they would try harder to concede less than 50/60/70/100 points when the Lions pop down there?

Also can we please just clear the fact that SANZAR rugby does not represent super rugby, it represents the top few % of players.

http://m.couriermail.com.au/sport/rugby/act-brumbies-score-historic-win-over-british-and-irish-lions/story-fnh5q2eu-1226665914756

"SANZAR (South Africa, New Zealand and Australia Rugby) is the body which operates Super Rugby and The Rugby Championship competitions in Rugby Union. It is a joint venture of the South African Rugby Union, the New Zealand Rugby Union and the Australian Rugby Union, formed in 1996."

BZzt! 0-2

But thanks for playing.

"Kuridrani scored the only try of the game after just six minutes, swatting away diminutive winger Christian Wade with a dismissive fend and crashing over."

"The Brumbies defence was courageous and mighty"

"The Lions' lineout started going astray, backline passes began sailing over upstretched arms, their scrums were pushed backwards."

Looks like the brumbies attacking execution was the difference.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CW9Bjmw_69U

Oh no! Not the wide ball again???

If the only reasonable strength super rugby team the lions played were better than the lions....goodness.

butterfingers wrote:

Pleae bare in mind not just the risk reward factor, but you have to consider the step up between 6N and Super rugby, it a hugely different kettle of fish.

Not that I'm arguing this as a case, but if Super rugby wanted to discad the myth that defencively it's bad, surely they would try harder to concede less than 50/60/70/100 points when the Lions pop down there?

Correct on the first count. Super Rugby encompasses all the players from the top 3 nations, the 6N from 4 downwards or thereabouts.

On the second point the Lions, presumably the best players from the 4 nations, should be stronger than the superxv sides, particularly when their top players are left out. How a combined Oz, NZ, SA and Argie side would go against NH clubs without their internationals? you can add zero's to your 50, 60 points butters.

...not that I'm arguing the point...

GloriousEmpire wrote:Look, stop derailing my thread about the relative abilities of world class fly halves with this tangential culinary irrelevance.

Now back on topic: is Quade Cooper better at throwing the wide cut out pass that Sexton? Or was England's defense putting him under too much pressure?

We've seen Cooper unlock tight defenses in the nh with mercurial strokes of composed genius such as this gem:

https://youtu.be/SgiK4VS2kXc

Or this one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5haCNXDHkQ8

I think it's an interesting topic. Does the SH really produce prodigious talent uniquely? Is it just tolerated and nurtured differently? Or is the "basketball and powderpuff" super rugby a training ground that allows players to hone such a repertoire?

You could put together a fairly sizable highlights reel of Cooper intercept passes too.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Look, stop derailing my thread about the relative abilities of world class fly halves with this tangential culinary irrelevance.

Now back on topic: is Quade Cooper better at throwing the wide cut out pass that Sexton? Or was England's defense putting him under too much pressure?

We've seen Cooper unlock tight defenses in the nh with mercurial strokes of composed genius such as this gem:

https://youtu.be/SgiK4VS2kXc

Or this one

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5haCNXDHkQ8

I think it's an interesting topic. Does the SH really produce prodigious talent uniquely? Is it just tolerated and nurtured differently? Or is the "basketball and powderpuff" super rugby a training ground that allows players to hone such a repertoire?

You could put together a fairly sizable highlights reel of Cooper intercept passes too.

Gotta be in to win guns...

no wonder cipriani (old model) was such a hit down there

Actually he lived up to an unfortunate stereotype:

1. He was the worst defender statistically.
2. He kicked the most ball away statistically.
3. His side lost regularly

Welcome back GE.

Nobody mention the war!

as much as one doesnt want to agree with GE, any NH cant argue the fact that their (SH) record against all teams (England excepted 00-03) is phenomenal

so for any NH to say that the s15 teams cant tackle etc - they must be doing something bloody right

I agree it goes back to skillsets in the NH at mini-junior and youth/colts rugby the teams who win generally are the ones with the big lads playing for them

I would love for kids teams to be organised on weight and not age to give a more even contest and force kids to develop their skillsets rather than rely on simply being bigger than the opposition

Yeah, i'm inclined to give the SH defenders the benefit of the doubt and say missed tackles in the S15 are normally the result of great attacking play, especially given we seem to drop off them a lot come the AIs.

Thanks for backing me up dudes! If only you'd been here a week ago, maybe BT wouldn't have issued a yellow for persistent disagreement during an argument.

(Love ya bilts! )

GE, you spark interesting rugby discussions, but always beware...

Godwin's Law...

re defence/attack, neither can be viewed in isolation. so i just dont buy any comparisons between SH and NH club play. only when the teams actually play each other can any meaningful comparisons be made.

"Godwin's law" is widely misunderstood as Godwin himself has pointed out.

The point is that the law itself challenges the memetics of ad Hominem in internet debates. It's not the subject that is relevant, but the reduction to a standard meme when avenue of debate is exhausted.

Referencing Godwin has now become a meme in itself, and hence in fact the anti-meme has become the defacto.

Hence and for this reason the use of Godwin when challenging a legitimate use of the original meme is now the worse of the two.

Well, That and http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/internet-argument-resolved-2014030584268

Don't want to go too far down this road, but once again, comparing Super rugby to NH international rugby, or international rugby in general is stupidity at the highest level.

Super rugby teams aren't the all blacks, who select from a very tiny % of super rugby players, and generally defence is one of the qualities they select from.

At club level you look at what a player could be capable of, at international level you select the best whole package.

There will be cases of good and bad defending in both the Super franchises, the Aviva, T14 and Rabo, but all leagues have differing styles. I would never say the Canes have a rubbish defence in comparison to Cleremont, or that Toulons attack is inferior to the Brumbies because all teams play in 2 leagues who prefer to play opposing styles, at different times of the year, in different conditions, with different agenda's and different competitions.

What I would say is that if your going to use examples of great attacking play use ones that are just that and not poor falling off of first up tackles.

Must've been hallucinating when the brumbies beat the lions then.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Must've been hallucinating when the brumbies beat the lions then.

  

And you wonder why you get agro...