Tactical battles in the England vs Wales match...

First topic message reminder :

Several key tactical decisions which need to be made.

For Wales:
- will they kick in-field as they usually do, given a much more dangerous than usual England back 3 who are all approaching 100m of carry per game each?
- or will they kick positionally and contest lineouts, not something they usually do? [more of an Irish plan]

i can see why they want to keep the ball in-field. pressure the catchers and hope for occasional knock-ons, then mess around with the scrum and try to convince the ref that it was them wot did it, get penalties and watch 1/2P convert. But with England's newish back 3 returning with interest, and supporting runners beginning to get the hang of it, will Wales stick with this tactic?

- will Wales contest English lineout ball, or try a defensive quick thrust into the lineout to drive the forming maul backwards before it gets going?
- i assume that given the speed of England's line defense, and the fact that France scored 2 quick grubber tries, Priestland and North are going to be attempting this rather frequently?

For England:
- will they continue with the rush defense quite as aggressively, knowing that Wales are certainly going to try to kick/chip through into space?
- i cant see England changing too much about their overall tempo, aggressive defense, and quick attacking game
- will England vary their kicking for a nice combo of in-field kicks, knowing its' coming back infield, in an attempt to fracture the centre of the field and open it up for Brown, May, Nowell? And occasional positional kicks to pressure the Welsh lineout?

Overall, England's gameplan is much less obvious, as the team is still fairly inexperienced. But they appear to back themselves to win the breakdown, and drive teams backwards in the tackle, which if they can continue to do, will make life very difficult for any opposition.

The scrum is going to be a massive battle. My gut feeling is that the current media coverage (even on the beeb) of how often the Welsh scrum goes to ground is going to swing interpretation in England's favour come next Saturday in the event of a zillion re-sets. Either way, this will be key.

I read somewhere that SL announces his on Friday ? Anyone else see that ? So another 2 days of speculation time.

Having watched Wales v France, I'm quite happy to see AW-J back - thought Ball was very good and provided a lot of power and abrasiveness, which I don't think AW-J matches (although he's a better ball player).

JD2 would seem to have been rushed back a bit because of absence of other options. Hopefully we can exploit any lack of match sharpness there.

Sad to not see Mike Phillips recalled as well - thought Webb did a good job of maintaining a high tempo v France which I think made the rest of the team look better.


I'm assuming England will not make any bar forced changes to the starting team, so Ben Morgan for Billy V being the only change in the starting XV. Maybe Yarde coming on to the bench in place of Ford or Goode, with a view to him possibly starting in Italy. Probably Lancaster's biggest decision is who to pick as a back row replacement - Johnson is solid but for me a little below international level, Kvesic hasn't shown much at club level this season and other options (Ewers, Dickinson) are inexperienced and require leap-frogging a Saxons player past the two EPS guys.

If Wales do persist with their tactic of kicking deep infield, one key will be how well they contain Mike Brown's kick returning - so far he's been brilliant at getting the ball back into positions where we can play constructively from rather than necessitating a returning kick. If he can keep this up and link with the likes of Morgan in broken field, it could be a tough day for the Welsh defenders.

gregortree wrote:I read somewhere that SL announces his on Friday ? Anyone else see that ? So another 2 days of speculation time.

I thought i read the other day that SL was going to announce an unchanged team. For this Sunday any way.

majesticimperialman wrote:

gregortree wrote:I read somewhere that SL announces his on Friday ? Anyone else see that ? So another 2 days of speculation time.

I thought i read the other day that SL was going to announce an unchanged team. For this Sunday any way.

maj,

I doubt there will be many changes will there anyway, Morgan in for Billy V good old A N Other onto the bench. Do you reckon Manu will figure, bench possibly?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

gregortree wrote:I read somewhere that SL announces his on Friday ? Anyone else see that ? So another 2 days of speculation time.

I thought i read the other day that SL was going to announce an unchanged team. For this Sunday any way.

maj,

I doubt there will be many changes will there anyway, Morgan in for Billy V good old A N Other onto the bench.  Do you reckon Manu will figure, bench possibly?

possibly. But in all honesty i would prefaire it if he did not take any part in this weeks game. He has only just come back for the Tigers. He should be given time to get him self fully match fit.

Whose the likely option to replace Morgan on the bench?

Not sure. I do hope it is not Downson from the Saints.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Whose the likely option to replace Morgan on the bench?

Current thinking seems to be Johnson of Exeter most likely, with Kvesic the only real alternative. I think a lot of people on here would be happier with Dickinson of Saints instead but he hasn't been part of the training group

No 7&1/2 wrote:No he doesn't. Just appears to be something maes is using to drudge up old arguments.

Something to nullify current stirring by posters like yourself

Maes - just chill old chap please? Takes two to fight.

Tactically, this is going to be very interesting.

It sounds like Wales are going to keep the ball infield and try to stop Brown rather than let Hartley and Lawes control the lineout. However, stopping Brown is easier said than done, and I'm interested to see how Wales do it. They can't afford for him to do his usual thing of needing two or three tacklers to take him down. There's a possible counter for most tactics: have North or Cuthbert line him up and he can try to chip and turn them; having Halfpenny as the lead chaser might leave them exposed at the back; targeting him with back rowers is likely to concede a fair bit of ground. Brown is well up the offloading table this year, too, so any tackle also has to stop him releasing Care or May. It'd be very tough to choke tackle him when he's moving at speed.

The best tactic I can think of is to kick high and put up a strong kick chase.

The other big English threat is Care, either going for the gap himself or hitting Morgan or Burrell on a good line. I assume that Lydiate and Warburton will be tasked with closing him down, and that they frequently will, but also that England will have planned for that and vary their tactics to keep the Welsh defence on their toes. One likely tactic is Robshaw stepping in at first receiver to give Care some space.

I expect England's scrum to be similar to how it was against Ireland. It will be under pressure, but Poite will want a proper contest and will be more alert to the root cause of collapses than certain other referees. I don't expect to see many penalties, but the Welsh back row will have some good opportunities to spoil England's possession. A lot will depend on how well Morgan can get the ball away under pressure. Wales will have an easier time getting their ball to the back of the scrum but Care has been very good at disrupting pickups by forwards so far.

The breakdown will be important but unusually I am not sure it will be decisive. I agree with the view above that England will cede possession rather than concede kickable penalties.They will miss Cole's breakdown ability, though I expect they will aim for Robshaw and Wood to clear out and Launchbury to contest turnovers. Expect Brown to put the Welsh backs under plenty of pressure if they get isolated from their forwards. M Poite will have a big say here as well; he will probably allow the usual French free-for-all, which could well work in Wales' favour as England are still a little slow to adapt to unfamiliar styles at the breakdown. (Which said, I cannot remember Quins ever struggling with his interpretation, and there are 4 of them in the England XV)

I think both teams have the ability to break the line and score tries, and that possession will be decided as much by kicking as it will on the ground. So for me, it comes down to territory. If Wales can pin England's back three deep in their own half, they will probably create enough chances to win the game. If England can return the ball across the half way line (and retain it), or put it behind the Welsh defence, an England win is more likely.

Which said, if Gatland has one of his odd moments and adopts "unusual" tactics like he did against Australia in the autumn (why did the Welsh players stand off the Aussies instead of hitting them hard?) all bets are off.

Poorfour,

Pretty damn good assessment there, I am a bit worried about Care and Brown as they are the two main threats and the ones that set the tempo.

I just hope JD is fully fit as for me he is such a vital cog in how we play, Brown won't get much change out of the centres so its if he can expose the back 3.

I have said all along that the backrow is where this game will be won or lost and I do feel we have the edge there but if Care can tie up one or two of say Lydiate and Warburton then that could change it all.

Its such a shame we don't get to see Billy and Taulupe go head to head.

Yes good assessment Poorfour.
It will be a test for our (England's) scrum as 3/8 of our first choice are missing but the back ups are all capable. I do think Billy V is a bit special though & would be a handful for any team. The missing England forwards even up the contest.
Rushing JD2 back could be a gamble but probably worth taking as North is much more of a threat with space & is not a natural passer of the ball (why would he be? ;-)).
However, if JD2 isn't on his mettle then I believe England & Burrell in particular could well exploit this.

The most important factor in the game I believe will be the welsh kicking, which I think we will see a lot of. If Priestland or Webb get it wrong then it will spell trouble as Wales target areas will be smaller as they seek to keep the ball in play.
England, however, can kick out of play & challenge the lineout.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Whose the likely option to replace Morgan on the bench?

Its Johnson, the cover is for Flanker. If required Wood can move to 8 (yeah I know!)
Morgan should be fresh, whereas Robshaw and wood have played 80 minutes of all 3 games. It makes sense to get a guy who can cover both those positions rather than a specialist 8 who only covers Morgan.

Having said that Johnson doesnt exactly add sparkle and world class to Englands options, but does have a bit of pace which may be handy if the game gets crazy late on.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No he doesn't. Just appears to be something maes is using to drudge up old arguments.

Something to nullify current stirring by posters like yourself

I only post what I think i don't do it for any reaction like some. Or mkae up quotes that don't exist. let's drop it.