Who is to blame at Man Utd?

First topic message reminder :

Last night saw a new low point at Manchester Utd, a 2-0 defeat to Olympiacos in the last 16 of the Champions League. This follows a season where they're adrift in the Premier League, a league in which they've not finished lower than 3rd in over 20 years. Out of both domestic cups and unless a miracle occurs in 3 weeks at Old Trafford in the return leg and the season is over.
But who's to blame for the state Utd are in?

Moyes?
He took on a title winning side, yes it was ageing but it was a side that knew how to win, it had belief and knew how to grind out results when it was having a bad day at the office.

The Glazers?
The fans have never been enamoured with the owners, the debt that they brought to the club and years of reconciling that combined with payouts to them whilst City and Chelsea spent big money to surpass them with squad strength.

Ed Woodward?
He got on a plane in the summer to tie up a huge deal, 4 weeks later on deadline day we paid over the odds for Fellaini, is the fact we didn't strengthen in clearly lacking areas his fault?

Sir Alex Ferguson?
He got out at the right time, he named his heir successor and he left a squad with guys that would struggle to get into lesser sides such as Cleverly, Smalling, Buttner etc whilst others such as Young, Nani, Valencia all look shadows of what they were built up to be when originally signed.

The players?
Last night they looked apathetic, clueless and passionless. This was a last 16 game in the CL, not a pre-season friendly yet they appeared to be turning up for their £300k a week (in Rooney's case) salary to get outperformed by what many considered the weakest side left in the competition. Utd do not have a golden right to win games, but the team themselves needs to look at their desire to succeed.

How the world appears to me Daily Mail readers:

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/world-according-daily-mail/

Stella wrote:Does anyone else feel that Suarez got a bit too much stick for the biting incident. yes it's a bit girly, and cowardly, but I doubt Ivanovic hardly felt it after the initial shock. If say he would have bitten his face and took a piece of flesh out of his cheek, then ban him, but it wasn't really like that.

I find two footed lunges with no intention of playing the ball a hundred times worse, and dangerous.

Ivanovic is a dirty, chippy player, a great RB but I don't feel the tiniest bit of sympathy for him. If Suarez bit him, he probably had it coming. My only regret is that he didn't give him a Vincent Van Gogh and take his ear off.

@mystiroakey why should I believe you?
Give me further evidence.

socal1976 wrote:

Stella wrote:Does anyone else feel that Suarez got a bit too much stick for the biting incident. yes it's a bit girly, and cowardly, but I doubt Ivanovic hardly felt it after the initial shock. If say he would have bitten his face and took a piece of flesh out of his cheek, then ban him, but it wasn't really like that.

I find two footed lunges with no intention of playing the ball a hundred times worse, and dangerous.

Ivanovic is a dirty, chippy player, a great RB but I don't feel the tiniest bit of sympathy for him. If Suarez bit him, he probably had it coming. My only regret is that he didn't give him a Vincent Van Gogh and take his ear off.

No because it was the second time and the Dutch already set a presedent of a 9 game ban, so the FA's hand was forced. What should have we done - laughed about it and given him a lesser punishment. Not a good message.

mystiroakey wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Stella wrote:Does anyone else feel that Suarez got a bit too much stick for the biting incident. yes it's a bit girly, and cowardly, but I doubt Ivanovic hardly felt it after the initial shock. If say he would have bitten his face and took a piece of flesh out of his cheek, then ban him, but it wasn't really like that.

I find two footed lunges with no intention of playing the ball a hundred times worse, and dangerous.

Ivanovic is a dirty, chippy player, a great RB but I don't feel the tiniest bit of sympathy for him. If Suarez bit him, he probably had it coming. My only regret is that he didn't give him a Vincent Van Gogh and take his ear off.

No because it was the second time and the Dutch already set a presedent of a 9 game ban, so the FA's hand was forced. What should have we done - laughed about it and given him a lesser punishment. Not a good message.

Some of the media (not ex=pro's) were making it out to be a bigger thing than it was though. As I said, it was cowardly, and tbh, a little weird, but no where near as bad as some 'tackles' that happen week in, week out. IMO, it was blown out of all proportion. A three game ban would have sufficed.

Stella, biting is what frustrated toddlers and street thugs do. It's not how a professional footballer is supposed to behave. He deserved to be punished and, it seems, it spurred him on to realizing that he need help with anger management issues.

Strange to say but it's probably the best thing that ever happened to him.

Stella wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Stella wrote:Does anyone else feel that Suarez got a bit too much stick for the biting incident. yes it's a bit girly, and cowardly, but I doubt Ivanovic hardly felt it after the initial shock. If say he would have bitten his face and took a piece of flesh out of his cheek, then ban him, but it wasn't really like that.

I find two footed lunges with no intention of playing the ball a hundred times worse, and dangerous.

Ivanovic is a dirty, chippy player, a great RB but I don't feel the tiniest bit of sympathy for him. If Suarez bit him, he probably had it coming. My only regret is that he didn't give him a Vincent Van Gogh and take his ear off.

No because it was the second time and the Dutch already set a presedent of a 9 game ban, so the FA's hand was forced. What should have we done - laughed about it and given him a lesser punishment. Not a good message.

Some of the media (not ex=pro's) were making it out to be a bigger thing than it was though. As I said, it was cowardly, and tbh, a little weird, but no where near as bad as some 'tackles' that happen week in, week out. IMO, it was blown out of all proportion. A three game ban would have sufficed.

but then you get the media and UEFA  nd the rest of the european press saying we are ok with biting. The problem was the Dutch president set already.

and to be honest it is the second time he has bitten someone. - He really needs to stop biting people.. he needs to eat more    or something- It is very strange

DAVE667 wrote:Stella, biting is what frustrated toddlers and street thugs do. It's not how a professional footballer is supposed to behave. He deserved to be punished and, it seems, it spurred him on to realizing that he need help with anger management issues.

Strange to say but it's probably the best thing that ever happened to him.

Damn right. Nor is stamping on a players achilles, lunging in at a players knee, with eyes not on the ball. Is biting a players arm worse? Certainly not as dangerous.

I know it was wrong, and childlike, just not as bad as other things that happen on a football field. The fact that MOTD pundits made a joke out of it says it all.

it is a joke- its hilarious and he was a tw£t- but at the same time we all love him today. He took his punishment and is looking up in every regard- playing wise, maturity levels, everything.

Something has worked.. Dave is spot on- this may have helped him- enforcing that the ban worked..

To add to your point- maybe stamps etc should receive a bigger ban.

Yes, the ban or maybe a word from Rogers, has helped him, it seems. I should be grateful as well, because he's the best footballer in the EPL to watch. Great vision, touch, craft. Great player.

Pierce Quincy wrote:A team like Man United does not deserve to be beaten by Stoke, or the weakest team remaining in the Champions League.

What? They didn't deserve to lose to Stoke or Olympiakos? No team is that big that they "deserve not to be beaten". People always said Newcastle were to big to get relegated, it happened, and they deserved it due to the squad not being good enough to survive that season.

Manchester United lost those games because the team isn't good enough, and the players didn't put in the required effort to get the win, and as such they deserved those defeats.

Spot on Hampo.

I do feel there is certainly a lack of fight with this current crop of players, which was unheard of in the SAF era. As a player, you should be busting a gut and doing everything in your power to win a match and dig deep. This season, many utd players have failed to show this mentality.

You certainly could blame Moyes for this, but at the end of the day once you cross that white line its up to you to implement your instructions and actions.

Bottom line though is there are too many players in this squad that are either past it or too old (rio, giggs, vidic, evra) and those that are simply not up to the standard required for manchester united (Young, Valencia, Cleverly).

Utd have a good core of young promising players in Januzaj, De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Welbeck with the likes of Powell and Lingard waiting in the wings, mixed with good players in Rooney, RVP, Carrick, Mata, Evans.

The changes needed are quite obvious and its not as doom and gloom as it seems. We need to spend allot in the summer, but if we bring in the necessary players then i'm sure we'll be back challenging for the title next season, 100%.

Stella wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Stella, biting is what frustrated toddlers and street thugs do. It's not how a professional footballer is supposed to behave. He deserved to be punished and, it seems, it spurred him on to realizing that he need help with anger management issues.

Strange to say but it's probably the best thing that ever happened to him.

Damn right. Nor is stamping on a players achilles, lunging in at a players knee, with eyes not on the ball. Is biting a players arm worse? Certainly not as dangerous.

I know it was wrong, and childlike, just not as bad as other things that happen on a football field. The fact that MOTD pundits made a joke out of it says it all.

You are crazy. Biting is nothing like a bad tackle or a lunge or stamp. Biting is the most vile thing a person could do to someone. It's on par with somebody spitting at you. It's disgusting. Nobody transfers their bodily fluid by making a late or heavy tackle.

If someone bit me in the street or on a football pitch it'd be the very last thing they do with breath in their lungs.

CFCNick wrote:

Stella wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Stella, biting is what frustrated toddlers and street thugs do. It's not how a professional footballer is supposed to behave. He deserved to be punished and, it seems, it spurred him on to realizing that he need help with anger management issues.

Strange to say but it's probably the best thing that ever happened to him.

Damn right. Nor is stamping on a players achilles, lunging in at a players knee, with eyes not on the ball. Is biting a players arm worse? Certainly not as dangerous.

I know it was wrong, and childlike, just not as bad as other things that happen on a football field. The fact that MOTD pundits made a joke out of it says it all.

You are crazy. Biting is nothing like a bad tackle or a lunge or stamp. Biting is the most vile thing a person could do to someone. It's on par with somebody spitting at you. It's disgusting. Nobody transfers their bodily fluid by making a late or heavy tackle.

If someone bit me in the street or on a football pitch it'd be the very last thing they do with breath in their lungs.

You'd rather have someone break your leg? Each to their own.

Did I say that? At least the majority of broken legs are accidental.

CFCNick wrote:Did I say that? At least the majority of broken legs are accidental.

Unless you're Roy Keane   

CFCNick wrote:Did I say that? At least the majority of broken legs are accidental.

Some are, some are not. Biting like spitting is disgusting, i accept that. My point is, the media, and some fans went over the top with their criticism, when worse things happen.

Stella does have a point given the outrage over whether or not Robben spat at Sagna.

You and I have differing opinions on "worse things". I think Brani would be less upset with Suarez if he had broken his leg in a late tackle.

CFCNick wrote:You and I have differing opinions on "worse things". I think Brani would be less upset with Suarez if he had broken his leg in a late tackle.

Mmm, not sure. 'Brani' seemed to be ok with the bite, after the initial shock. And not if Suarez had lunged in on purpose and broken his leg it, he wouldn't. I've no problem with a hard fair tackle resulting in a broken leg, it's the deliberate 'tackles' that are far worse than a bite, well to me.

Stella wrote:

CFCNick wrote:You and I have differing opinions on "worse things". I think Brani would be less upset with Suarez if he had broken his leg in a late tackle.

Mmm, not sure. 'Brani' seemed to be ok with the bite, after the initial shock. And not if Suarez had lunged in on purpose and broken his leg it, he wouldn't. I've no problem with a hard fair tackle resulting in a broken leg, it's the deliberate 'tackles' that are far worse than a bite, well to me.

I don't know why you think every footballer is a Karl Henry or Joey Barton type.

CFCNick wrote:

Stella wrote:

CFCNick wrote:You and I have differing opinions on "worse things". I think Brani would be less upset with Suarez if he had broken his leg in a late tackle.

Mmm, not sure. 'Brani' seemed to be ok with the bite, after the initial shock. And not if Suarez had lunged in on purpose and broken his leg it, he wouldn't. I've no problem with a hard fair tackle resulting in a broken leg, it's the deliberate 'tackles' that are far worse than a bite, well to me.

I don't know why you think every footballer is a Karl Henry or Joey Barton type.

I don't?

I note nothing major has been made of Soldado's deliberate elbow last night. Then again, as it's the first thing he's had on target all season, they don't want to dent his confidence.

DAVE667 wrote:I note nothing major has been made of Soldado's deliberate elbow last night. Then again, as it's the first thing he's had on target all season, they don't want to dent his confidence.

Yes, I get the feeling we may have heard a bit more about it, if Suarez had elbowed a fellow player.

DAVE667 wrote:I note nothing major has been made of Soldado's deliberate elbow last night. Then again, as it's the first thing he's had on target all season, they don't want to dent his confidence.

hehe-

The off side goal he scored to be fair to the lad was really well taken actually.

I thought Tottenham looked good yesterday inducing him- for once!!

he may not score - but i can see some signs of quality again.

hampo171 wrote:

Pierce Quincy wrote:A team like Man United does not deserve to be beaten by Stoke, or the weakest team remaining in the Champions League.

What? They didn't deserve to lose to Stoke or Olympiakos? No team is that big that they "deserve not to be beaten". People always said Newcastle were to big to get relegated, it happened, and they deserved it due to the squad not being good enough to survive that season.

Manchester United lost those games because the team isn't good enough, and the players didn't put in the required effort to get the win, and as such they deserved those defeats.

Ok. Let me elucidate:
I said that a Team like Manchester United doesn't deserve to lose to teams like that. What I meant is not that the current team with their current level of performance didn't deserve to be beaten. I just implied that last year's League Champions shouldn't be losing to Stoke and Olympiacos like that, with unimpressive and uninterested, lethargical performances. Their fans, supporters don't deserve it. I never said Man Utd should have won those games easily, did I? My point here is that Manchester United are in deep sh!t this season and they did not deserve this, they did not deserve Moyes..
How come the same team(minus Fellaini & Mata) won the league title by 11 pts? Ok, I agree that City & Chelsea were poor, but still, Utd got points, lost just 6 times.. I don't think there should be such a gulf between Fergie's team and his successor's one. If you read my comment carefully you will see that it is basically about Moyes not being 'The Right One'
Have I explained myself clearly now, Hampo?

mystiroakey wrote:

Stella wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Stella wrote:Does anyone else feel that Suarez got a bit too much stick for the biting incident. yes it's a bit girly, and cowardly, but I doubt Ivanovic hardly felt it after the initial shock. If say he would have bitten his face and took a piece of flesh out of his cheek, then ban him, but it wasn't really like that.

I find two footed lunges with no intention of playing the ball a hundred times worse, and dangerous.

Ivanovic is a dirty, chippy player, a great RB but I don't feel the tiniest bit of sympathy for him. If Suarez bit him, he probably had it coming. My only regret is that he didn't give him a Vincent Van Gogh and take his ear off.

No because it was the second time and the Dutch already set a presedent of a 9 game ban, so the FA's hand was forced. What should have we done - laughed about it and given him a lesser punishment. Not a good message.

Some of the media (not ex=pro's) were making it out to be a bigger thing than it was though. As I said, it was cowardly, and tbh, a little weird, but no where near as bad as some 'tackles' that happen week in, week out. IMO, it was blown out of all proportion. A three game ban would have sufficed.

but then you get the media and UEFA  nd the rest of the european press saying we are ok with biting. The problem was the Dutch president set already.

and to be honest it is the second time he has bitten someone. - He really needs to stop biting people.. he needs to eat more    or something- It is very strange

The ban was pretty harsh. Like I said I am not a big fan of Ivanovic so if it was some other player I might feel a little different about it. I mean there really wasn't an intent to injure him, it was an act of frustration resulting from Ivanovic tugging and pulling him. They really need to clear that up in the set pieces. So glad Skrtel finally got a penalty on a cross into the box for that behavior. Honestly, I don't know how more premier league players don't lose their rag and go upside the dome of some of these defenders with all their tugging and pulling which basically never gets called.

I admit to losing it on the pitch before in a 5 a side only a few years ago.. i hate being tugged in the box.. The red mist sets in

You mysti? Did you pull a Suarez and try to eat his liver with some fava beans and a fine Chianti?

no. But i turned round ready to punch him and then realised what the heck am i doing...

Never been violent in my life.. But when you get a beaut of a threw ball and are ready to finish in style and some one grabs your arm and tugs you back.. Its not good...

Pierce Quincy wrote:

hampo171 wrote:

Pierce Quincy wrote:A team like Man United does not deserve to be beaten by Stoke, or the weakest team remaining in the Champions League.

What? They didn't deserve to lose to Stoke or Olympiakos? No team is that big that they "deserve not to be beaten". People always said Newcastle were to big to get relegated, it happened, and they deserved it due to the squad not being good enough to survive that season.

Manchester United lost those games because the team isn't good enough, and the players didn't put in the required effort to get the win, and as such they deserved those defeats.

Ok. Let me elucidate:
I said that a Team like Manchester United doesn't deserve to lose to teams like that. What I meant is not that the current team with their current level of performance didn't deserve to be beaten. I just implied that last year's League Champions shouldn't be losing to Stoke and Olympiacos like that, with unimpressive and uninterested, lethargical performances. Their fans, supporters don't deserve it. I never said Man Utd should have won those games easily, did I? My point here is that Manchester United are in deep sh!t this season and they did not deserve this, they did not deserve Moyes..
How come the same team(minus Fellaini & Mata) won the league title by 11 pts? Ok, I agree that City & Chelsea were poor, but still, Utd got points, lost just 6 times.. I don't think there should be such a gulf between Fergie's team and his successor's one. If you read my comment carefully you will see that it is basically about Moyes not being 'The Right One'
Have I explained myself clearly now, Hampo?

By saying a team doesn't deserve to lose you are implying that they are above everyone else. The difference between the last season and this one is down to two reasons in my opinion.

1) Ferguson isn't there. The players had a fear factor with Fergie that David Moyes just doesn't have. They knew that if they pulled rang under the previous regime, they would get everything they said back, with interest. Moyes on the other hand never gives the impression that he is willing to do that, he has gone from Everton where he was able to buy players from lower level sides and not pay them huge fortunes, and hence not deal with the massive egos to Manchester United where he has a dressing room full of egos and players who have infalted opinions of themselves due to the media. We said on this weeks podcast that Rooney wouldn't have gotten that contract under Fergie, with Moyes he knows he can hold the club to ransom.

2) Their key players are aging and Fergie knew this. Under Fergie the older players like Vidic, Rio, Evra, Giggs would put a real shift in. I have no doubts that they knew if they didn't play well that they'd be dropped, and that would likely see the end of their careers, under this regime they get chance after chance and have realised that they no longer need to put in that kind of shift anymore. Fergie was able to find an extra 10% from his players that his successor just can't.

hampo171 wrote:

By saying a team doesn't deserve to lose you are implying that they are above everyone else. The difference between the last season and this one is down to two reasons in my opinion.

1) Ferguson isn't there. The players had a fear factor with Fergie that David Moyes just doesn't have. They knew that if they pulled rang under the previous regime, they would get everything they said back, with interest. Moyes on the other hand never gives the impression that he is willing to do that, he has gone from Everton where he was able to buy players from lower level sides and not pay them huge fortunes, and hence not deal with the massive egos to Manchester United where he has a dressing room full of egos and players who have infalted inflated opinions of themselves due to (what) the media(said). We said on this weeks podcast that Rooney wouldn't have gotten that contract under Fergie, with Moyes he knows he can hold the club to ransom.

2) Their key players are aging and Fergie knew this. Under Fergie the older players like Vidic, Rio, Evra, Giggs would put a real shift in. I have no doubts that they knew if they didn't play well that they'd be dropped, and that would likely see the end of their careers, under this regime they get chance after chance and have realised that they no longer need to put in that kind of shift anymore. Fergie was able to find an extra 10% from his players that his successor just can't.

No, they're not above everyone else. They can't be.
Why do you keep saying that I imply that they are bigger than the other clubs? When did I say they do not deserve to lose, because they are too big a club to lose to Stoke & Olympiacos? When?

A team like Man United does not deserve to be beaten by Stoke, or the weakest team remaining in the Champions League.

Here, "A team like Man United" is explained below:
It means that Manchester United Football Club have a squad that was capable of beating Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and of winning the Barclays Premier League Trophy by a significant margin of 11 points just a year ago.
This season they have added two star players- (i) Marouane Fellaini of Everton, who was very promising in midfield, for £27 million
                                                                 (ii) Juan Mata, who was Chelsea FC's Player of The Year for the past two seasons                                                                            ,                                                                      for £37.1 million
And compared to their last season, there has been a significant decrease in their overall performance level they are 11 points behind Liverpool FC, who are on 4th- the last Champions League spot.
But the manager has repeatedly kept such players on the starting line-up who are either underperforming, or simply are not that good.
Therefore, 'A team like Man United' here means a team who won the league with the same squad barring two star players. (And the manager is not good enough to manage the aforementioned team.)

I do not like David Moyes as a manager, and I think he should not be manager at a big club like Manchester United without proper experience. And I blame him for Man Utd's troubles. As you nicely put it- "under MOYES they get chance after chance and have realised that they no longer need to put in that kind of shift anymore. Fergie was able to find an extra 10% from his players that MOYES just can't."

Lionel Richie's "Hello" is one of my favourite songs, so I thought I ought to share with you guys what I read(heard) on B/r
b/r..com/articles/1935565-arseblog-creates-spoof-david-moyes-song


By the way, I agree with the two points you made regarding the gulf in performance between Fergie's Man Utd and Moysey's Man Utd
Has it ever occurred to you how a Chelsea fan could think that Man Utd are above everyone else when he says they didn't deserve to lose?
But if you still think that I think Man United are above everyone else,
Then I give up, son.   

lionel Richie's 'Hello' is one of your favourite songs? I can forgive you supporting Liverpool and Chelsea, but not that   

An old boring feebie like me, its a good way to kill time...  

Is there really anybody to blame?

United fans throwing a Paddy should remember the old adage that 'all good things must come to an end'. Look back through the history of football and that adage holds true. Liverpool ruled the roost for over two decades and that dominance ended just as is the case with United now. I liken United's crisis to what befell Nottingham Forest once they lost their genius manager Brian Clough. Managers like Clough and Fergie are irreplacable such was their legacy and quality. Fair enough United fans want Moyes out but are these the same United fans that were calling for Fergie's head after his shaky start in the job in 1986? You never know, show Moyes the same loyalty and faith given to Fergie and he could build his own legacy?

The only thing I disagree with you on Pierce is the use of the word "deserve". They weren't good enough on the day so deserved to lose to those teams, with the squad they have they shouldn't have lost but the certainly deserved to be beat.

I blame Clive Woodward.

I blame Kevin peterson

hampo171 wrote:The only thing I disagree with you on Pierce is the use of the word "deserve". They weren't good enough on the day so deserved to lose to those teams, with the squad they have they shouldn't have lost but the certainly deserved to be beat.

That's like my boy hampo!
Yes, I shouldn't have used 'deserved to win' 'shouldn't be losing with that squad' or something would have conveyed my message better
By the way, what do you think? Can they finish in the top 7?

As a Liverpool fan I'd prefer them to get relegated, however being honest I can see them getting 7th. Hopefully we give them a good beating on the 16th.

bit late to the party with this one, so havent read through the two pages but ultimately the buck stops with the manager

its his job to motivate the player
its his job to signal out realistic transfer targets (pretty harsh to blame woodward for not getting cesc when it was very unlikely in the first place)
its his job of running or at least hiring the back room staff that will run match traning

and moyes has failed on all fronts, not to mention the mind numbingly boring football we now play. glaziers have screwed fans over with ticket schemes and prices etc but as owners for a manager there decent, they sit back and let the manager get on with it, also provided money when they have needed it.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:May I have this dance?

Pierce Quincy wrote:
Can you answer some questions of mine?
1. Why are Everton looking better than they did under Moyes, although they are managed by a manager who couldn't even save his team from relegation?
2. Why are they looking like genuine Top-4 contenders in the next season?
3. Why did Everton finish in the Top-4 just once in 10 years under Moyes?
4. Why couldn't Everton ever beat a top-4 team under Moyes?
5. Why did Everton look like the first team to take all three points from Mourinho at home in the league(had they attacked more)?
6. Why were Everton the best team to face Chelsea at the Bridge?
7. Why did everton manage to beat Chelsea & Man United in the same season?
'The chosen one' is just an average manager who got lucky.
Jose Mourinho, on the other hand is one of the greatest managers alive, according to SAF himself.

1. All the glory of 7th
2. Questionable, they dont look better than any of the teams above them
3. Because they're Everton and the juggernauts are what they are
4. I doubt he really cares, he probably just cares where they finish each year.
5. They lost and WBA surely looked better.
6. Above
7. They havent managed to beat West Brom, do points count against Chelsea?

At the end of the day, they are currently behind United in the table(with a game in hand, perhaps?). This is a United team some callthat is embarrassing and an Everton team being described as that is the best to play at Stamford Bridge this year. Go figure, eh?

Im not sure what I'm arguing at this point. Still time n all that anyway. I don't entirely disagree with you or anything, devils advocate n such

                       

Dolph,
Please have a look at the picture below:
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Oh yes they won't even finish 7th, will they? lucky if they're 17th...  

Seriously. Seriously???  
Look at the image above mate... they're 3 pts above Man Utd, and could finish 5th but man Utd are 5pts behind everton. 4th is gone, even 5th is looking a stretch. They'll need to win most of their matches and pray that everton win a match less and tottenham two matches less than them...  
Anyways, my point IS proved, isn't it? Everton ARE better than Manu this season, isn't it?

A decent measure of how teams will end at this point is sometimes more about goal difference.

i think united are only 5th in that stake

hampo171 wrote:As a Liverpool fan I'd prefer them to get relegated, however being honest I can see them getting 7th. Hopefully we give them a good beating on the 16th.

Don't I wish that... but it not happening at the moment.
If newcastle hadn't messed up, United could have finished 8th. But They were lucky that Newcastle lost so many games.  
7th is a minimum. If they still somehow manage to finish below 7th, Moysey 'deserves' to be sacked immediately.

@mystiroakey,
Even on GD, Tottenham are pretty hopeless, but they're 5pts above Man Utd.
And Everton are just a goal down. With our(Chelsea's) very own Lukaku back, that can improve.
Man Utd should Luk out for him! (pardon the pun)

I blame Fergie and the board for not making big signings or at least getting them lined up for when Moyes took over. Look at the signings made by Man City and Chelsea.

Moyes has to take some of the blame for not getting the best out of the players at his disposal. Looking at his past work at Everton he should be able to organize a decent defense with those players.

Letting Wilfried Zaha go out on loan before giving him a decent run in the first team is just pure negligence.

erictheblueuk wrote:
Letting  Wilfried Zaha go out on loan before giving him a decent run in the first team is just pure negligence.

Why?

fergie was supposed to sign loads of players that moyes may not even want? the current situation with rvp shows what can happen there. seeing though the majority of players who may have came, fergie would have been one of the biggest factors in the move

seems like people want to give moyes a pass just so they can have a dig at fergie, i know he wasnt liked much but to blame this on fergie and not moyes is silly

He did leave him a squad that wasnt fit for purpose but Moyes has also accelerated the need for regeneration.

A very unique situation, I'll judge him come September

Utd have needed strengthening for years especially in center mid. The summer should have brought about 5/6 new players to the club.

Instead, we went all out keeping Rooney and chasing Fabregas who we were never going to sign. If we had put half the amount of effort in getting Thiago that we did with Fabregas he'd be in the red of utd right now and not Bayern!

Moyes' tactics this season has been poor and with simple side ways passing, crossing like there's no tomorrow and poor intensity to the passing as well as without the ball. What utd needs a massive overhaul in the squad with older and past it players leaving along with the deadwood that simply isn't good enough to be replaced with realistic targets and a change in the way we play. I also think its time to let RVP go in order to play Mata in his preferred position in behind the striker, with Rooney up top. Should go all out in the summer for:

Reus
Gundongen (Kagawa going the other way)
Kroos

with a lb and cb also a priority.