Plausible XV of the 6N to date?

First topic message reminder :

15. Brown
14. Huget
13. Burrell
12. Fofana
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Care
1. Healy
2. Hartley
3. Ross
4. Lawes
5. Launchbury
6. O'Mahony
7. Robshaw
8. Faletau
 
Some marginal choices there perhaps. Burrell or O'Driscoll? No 12 totally stamped his authority on the season, so Fofana by default. Hartley or Best? Is Robshaw a fair shout and should POC have a berth? There are 7 Englishmen, which may be a little high on the balance of the season. On the other hand, with a number of the Welsh a little below par and most of the French and Scots well below that level, it's a bit difficult to see what else to do.

I would go with;

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 O'Mahony
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola
9 Care
10 Sexton
11 Sarto
12 Scott
13 Burrell
14 Huget
15 Brown

I'm disappointed in you Notch. Have you seen any 100ft banners of Burrell being unfurled in Twickenham lately? Me neither. O'Driscoll clearly better. Although I've noticed when he's knocked down he seems to be staying down longer and longer. The end is near. But the three assists were great. Still the classiest centre.

Funny how Ross is now in peoples teams. Not even an Irishman would have put him in a year ago. Himself and the English chap (is his name Wilson?) have benefited a lot from the new scrum laws.

Ross will be shortlisted for Player of the Year.... and win it!!!!  
Something poor BOD never managed to do enough lobbying to get.  His Oscar speech would have been great though.  I know because I wrote it.  Plenty of tear-jerker moments.

Oh well, I'll pass it on to Payne when he comes in.  He'll surely  get a World BOD of the Year Award sometime in the near future.  I hear the IRB are creating one.

starting at 15, i would go for

15 Brown
14 Huget
13 Burrell (sorry BOD - but i hope you get player of tourny if ireland win saturday)
12 Jamie Roberts (no clear standout in this position)
11 George North
10 Sexton (although Farrell's display vs Wales was a real step up in maturity, but sexton is just too good)
9 Care
8 Faletau/Vunipola/Morgan/Heaslip
7 Warburton (hate that he signed a central contract but apart from a few knock-ons he's really been memorable)
6 POM
5 Lawes
4 Launchbury
3 don't know
2 Hartley
1 Healy

ha - i said to myself, i'm just going to write down my 15 without looking at what anyone else has put down, and blow me but i've got pretty much the same as the two posts on this page!

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm disappointed in you Notch. Have you seen any 100ft banners of Burrell being unfurled in Twickenham lately? Me neither. O'Driscoll clearly better. Although I've noticed when he's knocked down he seems to be staying down longer and longer. The end is near. But the three assists were great. Still the classiest centre.

Funny how Ross is now in peoples teams. Not even an Irishman would have put him in a year ago. Himself and the English chap (is his name Wilson?) have benefited a lot from the new scrum laws.

Tbh, there's just a lack of options at tight head. One thing apart from everything else I'd say is one of the best things about this year is just how strong Irelands second string front row is! First tournament in ages I feel that our reserves won't get scrummaged off the pitch if they all come back at the same time.

Oh and believe me, if it was team of the weekend he'd be there! If it was all-time team of the Six Nations since Italy joined he would DEFINITELY be there.

I hope next weekend he gives me a reason to change my choice at 13

Not too many debatables.

1. Healy
2. Hartley
3. Ross
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Wood
7. Warburton
8. Vuinipola

9. Care
10. Farrell
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Burrell
14. Huget
15. Brown

9 English, 3 Welsh, 2 Irish, 1 French, 0 Scots

Could argue for Robshaw, D'arcy, BOD, Henry, Marler, Jones.

interesting that lawes/launchbury are not only in everyone's 6N team to date, but are in pretty much everyone's team of each weekend.

so young, with such great lungs, strength and fitness. they also have neutralised every team's dangermen big runners in open play.

makes sense that england are keen to keep the ball alive with this pair not bogged down in lineout or scrum.

They have been the best quins. Very happy with the Irish two though. I've been stunned by Toner to be honest. I once had him down as nowhere near capable of test rugby. He's been brilliant really. I was wrong.

I notice that nobody is even debating beard of the tournament by the way.

They've been a revolation Quins.

I really think the pair of them are redefining 2nd row play, in the NH anyway.

They're big, strong, quick and athletic. Very much in the mould of NZ locks of past and present.

I think Launchbury especially could go on to be the best in the world in his position.

to be fair there's generally a pretty clear consensus on the spine of the team so far:

1 Healy
2 Hartley or Best
3 Ross
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 POM
7 Robshaw (Warburton with a few votes)
8 no real stand-out, Vunipola leading the way but concerns over whether he's played enough.
9 Care
10 Sexton
11 North/Trimble leading the way, but no real consensus
12 anyone's guess
13 BOD/Burrell
14 Huget
15 Brown

be interesting to see how next week-end changes things around if at all...

tis amazing how agreed we all seem to be, even over the unclear positions.

just goes to show its easier to pick players on form, which appears more obvious to all, rather than whether they fit into a "system", the ingredients of which are known completely only by the coach.

not having a dig at gatland at all, just making an obvious statement about form versus team.

Feckless Rogue wrote:They have been the best quins. Very happy with the Irish two though. I've been stunned by Toner to be honest. I once had him down as nowhere near capable of test rugby. He's been brilliant really. I was wrong.

I notice that nobody is even debating beard of the tournament by the way.

Well no, Anglo-Australia Ball has that hands down.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:8 no real stand-out, Vunipola leading the way but concerns over whether he's played enough.

I think Heaslip has been in the form of his career for Ireland. His work rate has been pretty amazing. I've been pretty critical of Heaslip at times in the recent past but he's been a bit of an unsung hero for Ireland this season along with Chris Henry, Rory Best and Devin Toner.

rodders wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:8 no real stand-out, Vunipola leading the way but concerns over whether he's played enough.

I think Heaslip has been in the form of his career for Ireland. His work rate has been pretty amazing. I've been pretty critical of Heaslip at times in the recent past but he's been a bit of an unsung hero for Ireland this season along with Chris Henry, Rory Best and Devin Toner.

The fact that noone has mentioned Sean O'Brien since the tournament began says how well Henry has played, not sure how people can say Warburton is a possible for team of the tournament when he's had maybe half a good game while Henry has had 4

He's Warburton. He's just gotta be on a list if a list is being created.

Robshaw and Henry are comfortably ahead on performances.
I really rate Robshaw.

O'Connell and Toner have been outstanding - it says a lot about Launchbury and Lawes form that they haven't received much of a mention.

Generally the quality of this years tournament has been really high.

As for O'Brien.  Thank God, we're not talking about him.  I'll bet he's delighted we're not talking about him.  Had we been talking about it then it's a sure thing that it would have been because we were in serious trouble.

Henry has done really really well.  And delighted for him and the team that he has.  And he'll certainly be a central part of any squad-growing and consolidating phase into the next months.

But nobody can exactly say how exactly we would have done had Bowe, Zebo, Fitzgerald, O'Brien, Earls, Madigan, Marmion etc been on this 6N team.  Would we have done even better with different selections?  Would we be one game away from the potential Slam?

Nobody knows.  And yet everyone seems to be of the opinion that Schmidt hasn't experimented or tried out a different Ireland side.  Some might argue that he's been road testing an alternative Ireland side through the entire 6N.  And a fine job it's being doing so far.  Fingers crossed that it will cross the line and pick up something sweet for the efforts

I would struggle to put any Welsh player in there at the moment Faletau would be the nearest so a side of the tournament

TJ wrote:
Bod beat more players, made more clean breaks and made more yard - and had a lot more ball.  Burrell has been very good tho - cut some lovely lines agaisnt scotland and to get near to BOds quality with his lack of experience marks him as somethig special

Cant argue with the praise Burrell has been getting. For his first six nations he has done really well. Much better than most centres that have played for England in the last 10 years so he is very rpomising.

SecretFly wrote:As for O'Brien.  Thank God, we're not talking about him.  I'll bet he's delighted we're not talking about him.  Had we been talking about it then it's a sure thing that it would have been because we were in serious trouble.

Henry has done really really well.  And delighted for him and the team that he has.  And he'll certainly be a central part of any squad-growing and consolidating phase into the next months.

But nobody can exactly say how exactly we would have done had Bowe, Zebo, Fitzgerald, O'Brien, Earls, Madigan, Marmion etc been on this 6N team.  Would we have done even better with different selections?  Would we be one game away from the potential Slam?

Nobody knows.  And yet everyone seems to be of the opinion that Schmidt hasn't experimented or tried out a different Ireland side.  Some might argue that he's been road testing an alternative Ireland side through the entire 6N.  And a fine job it's being doing so far.  Fingers crossed that it will cross the line and pick up something sweet for the efforts

Luke Marshall as well, was playing well going into the tournament, played well in the first game and D'Arcy came in and has been in the best form for Ireland since 2009

I don't believe for one second that Schmidt is picking anything other than what he feels is his best available team and that every player selected - including Dave Kearney, D'arcy and Trimble is there on merit.

Therefore with that in mind, injuries apart, there is no reason to hypothesise whether we could have done any better.

There is every reason, rodders.  

The presumption is that no Irish side containing any alternatives would have done even better.  That's a presumption too far and therefore it's always fun to hypothesise.

It's nice to think that we might have even more potent combinations and selections available in the wings (make sure you don't misread that - i said 'IN the wings' not 'on the wings') that haven't been tested yet.

Of course Schmidt is going on what's available and has given perhaps a few naughty children some homework to improve them - in either practice or in the mind...........  but to say we should ban talk of what-might-have-been lest we sully the good name and character of the beautiful ones Schmidt has so chosen.................. well, rodders, that can't be.  That's Martial Law, that's Putinism, that's censorship - and I resist that kinda lingo

Ireland team so far............... good.  Very happy................so far.  We win Championship..........very, very happy.  But that's not an Irish squad out there yet.  That's not sealed in and cottonwooled certainties I see there.  I'll want evidence of squads and alternative Irish sides.  I'm demanding that Schmidt fills my half empty glass with evidence rather than Kidneyspeak opinions.

Schmidt has been pretty clear about his selection policy fly. It's determined by performance in the matches and performance in training. As the same guys are who are playing well are also busting a gut in training it puts them in the driving seat for selection.

Because of this the target no of caps Joe set for this seasons championship won't be met.

I'm personally delighted with this because it shows Joe is a coach who is responsive to what his players are doing - previous coaches would have jettisoned players back in and rotated as part of predetermined plan.

Because of this his players are responding - understanding that if they have the jersey then their on-going selection is in their own hands rather than someone else's.

Captain C - what do you mean by "plausible"?

I assume it means that you want want a team with proven combinations rather than an eclectic mix of individuals. I'd go for the English tight 5, an Irish backrow, English halfbacks, Irish centres, and the French back three.

rodders wrote:Schmidt has been pretty clear about his selection policy fly. It's determined by performance in the matches and performance in training. As the same guys are who are playing well are also busting a gut in training it puts them in the driving seat for selection.

Because of this the target no of caps Joe set for this seasons championship won't be met.

I'm personally delighted with this because it shows Joe is a coach who is responsive to what his players are doing - previous coaches would have jettisoned players back in and rotated as part of predetermined plan.

Because of this his players are responding - understanding that if they have the jersey then their on-going selection is in their own hands rather than someone else's.

Em............... well..................... I can't agree with most of that, rodders.  And I really do hate disagreeing with you so often recently as you've proven a very agreeable, smart, witty and likeable 606er over the years.

BUT............. principles, principles must apply and I always have to speak my mind.

You could be all right of course but I tend to see Joe sticking with his players (which I hope you'll have acknowledged that I sometimes was against and I was sometimes very much for - depending on the specific games of the tournament) as Joe realising the seismic responsibility he now has.  I genuinely don't think he predicted the kind of pressure he would be under and yet everytime he's been interviewed, you can see his nervousness leach from him.  He realises the weight of public perception and desires.  He's all for that pressure.  I mean it charges him, he enjoys it in a perverse way but it does guard him against his instincts.
He's hinted so often that he'd have liked to change a few things along the way but the weight of the competition, the weight of the public's expectations, the weight of the tradition of the event itself and the weight of wanting to emerge as high as he can, have all conspired to make him cautious.
And rightly so - and for all those reason yes - he must be cautious.  He's absolutely lucky (so far) - and his players have paid him back in full doing their bit - that his caution has worked out.... and paid off.

He is right to maintain a balanced side now through the rest of the competition with absolute minimum changes (based on injury or fatigue which might be apparent in training this week).  But after this competition he needs to widen the scope and try out new selections in real games.  Training isn't enough.  Summer games should perhaps be given over mostly to the benchers of this competition and the returners from injury/homework etc  I think quite a few of this 6N bunch should be given a breather...and that includes the two Kearneys, Trimble, d'Arcy, POC, Healy, Ross, Sexton, Murray, Redden...and a few more.  

Let's see what we got.  We want the happiness extended if we get to be happy next weekend.  We don't want it to be fleeting.  And we want more players put through Schmidt's fingers with real, genuine gametime - to see what kind of players they are under his systems.  We need to know.  And we'll all enjoy finding out

I'm not plotting to have players dropped.  I'm saying other players deserve to be allowed show what they can do under Schmidt's direction and instructions.  He'll be eager to see that too or he really isn't the coach I believed him to be.  But I know he is.  Needs must in this 6N though and the players being used are giving all of themselves to it.  Onward we go to the next step.

I don't think he's been lucky fly and I don't think the team would have performed better by selecting different players. That is the crux of where we see it differently. You think there are better players on the periphery who bring more to the table but I don't at least not within the context of the team.

A fit O'Brien would be there, maybe a fit and on form Bowe but that would be as much as I would concede in terms of personnel.

I 100% think this is the best Ireland side currently available and believe Schmidt does to..#
He's a coach who knows what he wants and isn't afraid of tough calls.

I put to you that he has not been conservative - public opinion would have him pick Zebo and Bowe, so these would have been conservative calls imo, not the other way around.

rodders wrote:I don't think he's been lucky fly and I don't think the team would have performed better by selecting different players. That is the crux of where we see it differently. You think there are better players on the periphery who bring more to the table but I don't at least not within the context of the team.

A fit O'Brien would be there, maybe a fit and on form Bowe but that would be as much as I would concede in terms of personnel.

I 100% think this is the best Ireland side currently available and believe Schmidt does to..#
He's a coach who knows what he wants and isn't afraid of tough calls.

I put to you that he has not been conservative - public opinion would have him pick Zebo and Bowe, so these would have been conservative calls imo, not the other way around.

He is being conservative/careful.  He's admitted it.  He is learning the pressures, he's admitted that too.  He's made an allusion to Kiss being the only coach with International experience.  He's learning.  He's learning the rhythms of virtually a new career in terms of the different pressures between esoteric club rugby and the wider national expectations of International.

He is being careful...he's admitted it.  And he's stuck to a team that have mostly answered most of his questions, directions and plans for where he wants to be.  He said a top two would be ideal for Ireland in his first 6N and the players he has chosen have given him that.................maybe!!!!  We lose and we go down to third.

He was never going to mix it up violently in the 6N but he had planned to introduce more players until things got serious and unfamiliar pressures arose, as the GS and now the Championship beckoned.

Of course it's player skills that have given us the chance (as I see others mentioning the bulk of English players in their 6N selections, I'd have quite a few more Irish ones) but that is Luck that his selections worked.  A new coach could never have known that it would work.  He'd have hoped but he could never have been sure.  It was hope based on his instincts.  

Had it not worked............... as in if he had no Luck, then the hatchets would be out in the media about the players who might have played but didn't.

I stand by the point that we need to see is there even better combinations/selections available to him.  We will have to look at the squad we might have in real terms of gametime given to potentials.

SecretFly wrote:Of course it's player skills that have given us the chance (as I see others mentioning the bulk of English players in their 6N selections, I'd have quite a few more Irish ones) but that is Luck that his selections worked.  A new coach could never have known that it would work.  He'd have hoped but he could never have been sure.  It was hope based on his instincts.  

See I don't understand this comment. Schmidt and the selection panel, were divided up into groups and assigned particular players to watch all season -with specific things they were to look for, particularly off the ball. There has never been as much analysis done in an Irish selection in history. Of course there was an element of luck that it clicked but this selection was not random. If Schmidt wanted other players he'd have picked them.

Do you think Schmidt will get more flack for picking Trimble or Bowe if we lose? picking Zebo or Kearney? This is a brave selection for not going with easy picks and I think he deserves some credit. Of course he will look at other players after this tournament and players will drop out- but for the 6N he's picking the best side available.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Of course it's player skills that have given us the chance (as I see others mentioning the bulk of English players in their 6N selections, I'd have quite a few more Irish ones) but that is Luck that his selections worked.  A new coach could never have known that it would work.  He'd have hoped but he could never have been sure.  It was hope based on his instincts.  

See I don't understand this comment. Schmidt and the selection panel, were divided up into groups and assigned particular players to watch all season -with specific things they were to look for, particularly off the ball.

They can do all the homework they want as coaches, rodders.  Schmidt ended up dealing with combinations and many players he was unfamiliar with in a coaching context.  Listen to POC himself explain the dificulty in taking all of Schmidtism in as you try to keep focus on the thngs that you feel make you a good player.  Schmidt demands changes... from all his players.  He doesn't select players who do things off the ball naturally, he creates a lot of those things himself in his coaching techniques in camp.
There is no way Schmidt could have known how well or how badly his players or his gameplans would have worked by testing things on the training field.  It just wouldn't work that he was confident he'd chosen the correct players or the correct gameplans.  You're not watching him, you're not listening to him in interviews.  Nerves always on display hoping his instincts keep working for him.  Delight? - Nerves.  Happy? - Nervous.  Satisfied? - Relieved.  That's Schmidt.

He knew nothing but trusted himself and his coaches.  The proof of it working was where we now potentially are.  I'm not saying it is Luck that has us here, I'm saying he is lucky that he is, he is lucky that things worked out - as in the Poopie would have hit the fan had it not worked out.  Luck in the context of avoiding media fury.  
He knows all this himself.  As he beds down, he'll begin to know his opponents at International better, and he'll begin to have more real knowledge of what to expect from all his own players when all them are up and running naturally under his directions.

But this year?  No, he was doing a lot of hoping that he was right about selections.

SecretFly wrote:
 He doesn't select players who do things off the ball naturally, he creates a lot of those things himself in his coaching techniques in camp.

No he gave out feedback and instructions last year to each individual player what he was looking for, the coaching team were assigned players to watch all season for the duration on matches - there was a level of individual analysis done that has never been done before for an Irish selection. Players were monitored on things like whether they could hit rucks with both shoulders on either side - everything was analysed to the finest micro detail. You are not giving Schmidt the credit he deserves here, nor the players he has picked. If ever luck did't come into play is selection it was here.

SecretFly wrote:As for O'Brien.  Thank God, we're not talking about him.  I'll bet he's delighted we're not talking about him.  Had we been talking about it then it's a sure thing that it would have been because we were in serious trouble.

Henry has done really really well.  And delighted for him and the team that he has.  And he'll certainly be a central part of any squad-growing and consolidating phase into the next months.

But nobody can exactly say how exactly we would have done had Bowe, Zebo, Fitzgerald, O'Brien, Earls, Madigan, Marmion etc been on this 6N team.  Would we have done even better with different selections?  Would we be one game away from the potential Slam?

Nobody knows.  And yet everyone seems to be of the opinion that Schmidt hasn't experimented or tried out a different Ireland side.  Some might argue that he's been road testing an alternative Ireland side through the entire 6N.  And a fine job it's being doing so far.  Fingers crossed that it will cross the line and pick up something sweet for the efforts

Ha no wonder Ireland has 40 shades of green. The patch next to one we build our house on is always greener! I'm the same, always thinking how we could have done better rather than how well we did, but we have to be realistic.

We can't give any weight to what might have been with those you mention and coulda-woulda-shoulda. Maybe this is the 1st Ireland team we are seeing now Fly, they have acquitted themselves well enough to be deemed so (injuries permitting SOB and maybe Bowe would probably be in the XV) but I like this new meritocracy Ireland. Some of those guys mentioned above have had a fair crack of the whip (and probably will again), and come up wanting.

I think Schmidt has experimented, D.Kearney and Trimble were certainly not 1st picks for the AIs, but they are playing well enough (particularly Trimble) to keep the challengers out. He has also brought in Marty Moore, Henderson (more cemented), Tommy O Donnell, Murphy, and Ruddock into the 23, and expanded the playing squad. All that while rebuilding a team that was short on confidence and strategically rudderless!

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
 He doesn't select players who do things off the ball naturally, he creates a lot of those things himself in his coaching techniques in camp.

No he gave out feedback and instructions last year to each individual player what he was looking for, the coaching team were assigned players to watch all season for the duration on matches - there was a level of individual analysis done that has never been done before for an Irish selection. Players were monitored on things like whether they could hit rucks with both shoulders on either side - everything was analysed to the finest micro detail. You are not giving Schmidt the credit he deserves here, nor the players he has picked. If ever luck did't come into play is selection it was here.

You're misunderstanding my use of the word Luck.  I'll continue to use it in the context I'll use it, rodders.
Schmidt is an ex Leinster coach.  You don't need me to tell you how grateful we are that he has given the Province so much (players too!!!!! - let's never forget player's individual qualities) but he fabricated Leinster that was the envy of all of Europe with the style they played.
Schmidt is a special guy.  I know it more than most considering the smiles he has put on my face and the pride he has instilled in me.  I don't need to be told how good this guy is.

And I think I'm giving him more credit than even you are giving him though by outlining him as a human, not a genius.  A human that can get things wrong and will get things wrong and fret, and worry, and hope.  
I'm never going to be a DOD or SIN here on a past Leinster coach.  My instincts are to defend him but I'll defend him better by being honest and accepting him as human - and analysing him as objectively as I can.  I promised that to DOD at the beginning of his time and I'll keep to that promise.

He Has Made No Mistakes So Far.  Not accusing him of making mistakes.  I'm saying he's at the beginning and trusted more than he could ever be confident about given he had never taken a group of players through such an intense contest before.  He trusted his teaching, he trusted the players he picked, he trusted the lessons learned from how they handled their homework during Provincial duty and his trust in all those areas have...for now...paid off.

I don't see how you read anything I say as me saying he's been Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!!!

DOD and Sin will be along sometime in the next week or two to say all those things

Marshes wrote:

Ha no wonder Ireland has 40 shades of green. The patch next to one we build our house on is always greener! I'm the same, always thinking how we could have done better rather than how well we did, but we have to be realistic.

We can't give any weight to what might have been with those you mention and coulda-woulda-shoulda. Maybe this is the 1st Ireland team we are seeing now Fly, they have acquitted themselves well enough to be deemed so (injuries permitting SOB and maybe Bowe would probably be in the XV) but I like this new meritocracy Ireland. Some of those guys mentioned above have had a fair crack of the whip (and probably will again), and come up wanting.

I think Schmidt has experimented, D.Kearney and Trimble were certainly not 1st picks for the AIs, but they are playing well enough (particularly Trimble) to keep the challengers out. He has also brought in Marty Moore, Henderson (more cemented), Tommy O Donnell, Murphy, and Ruddock into the 23, and expanded the playing squad. All that while rebuilding a team that was short on confidence and strategically rudderless!

Yeah. Yeah, I'd say most of that is a shade of Green I'd accept on a broad level. But stay off my land! That tresspassers sign ain't up there to scare crows!

I find this lack of tokenism deeply disappointing!

I actually don't think we are disagreeing fly - just my glass is less half empty than yours....

We'd have beaten England with O'Brien. He's that good. He would have been worth at least three points. Henry hasn't put a foot wrong but he'll never threaten teams with the ball like O'Brien does.

Trimble is doing a great job but Bowe would have been better.
Kearney is doing a good job but one of Earls/Zebo/Fitzgerald would have been better.

I actually think Fitzgerald would have been starting if fit. He can do everything Kearney can do plus has a knack of opening up defences and making breaks. Schmidt likes him. He doesn't score many tries though. But neither has Kearney.

I like wingers who have the speed and finishing ability of Earls or Zebo. Our wingers are very similar at the moment. One speed demon would give us something extra.

equally England's scrum might have been a bit stronger against Ireland with (a fully-fit) Cole and Corbs starting might it not? and with someone who could run in a straight line towards the tryline (i.e. not May) we could/should/would have scored another two tries?

Ifs, buts and maybes eh?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:equally England's scrum might have been a bit stronger against Ireland with (a fully-fit) Cole and Corbs starting might it not? and with someone who could run in a straight line towards the tryline (i.e. not May) we could/should/would have scored another two tries?

Ifs, buts and maybes eh?

Well now, Chelsea, there isn't a shortage on other threads of Ifs, buts and maybes as regards a lost GS, and what might have been had England picked off France. So, I guess we're simply saying that if we win a Championship (no guarantee of course), there is room enough to do an ifs, buts and maybes about a GS we left behind too.

Feckless, if you'd had O'Brien, would your backrow have been as well balanced as it has this year, or would it flatter to deceive like last year when POM and SOB were in tandem ?

TJ wrote:Can I make a case for a Scot?  Gray?  Competing with Lawes / Launchberry.  Maybe not.  Denton?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

*sulks*

They have been the stand out players since returning to Scotland duties... maybe not match XV but matchday XXIII?

LondonTiger wrote:You said he "outplayed" Burrell when actually the difference between the two was minor, and a reasonable case could be made for either having been better. One was marginally better in attack, one better in defence.

By your measure surely England must have outplayed Ireland because they scored more points?

13 is not Burrells normal position as he plays 12 for his club. So not sure it is a fair comparison but I would like to see 36 on the bench & start Burrell at 12 with Manu at 13... just to see if it would work.

Or would that be too much power & not enough finess?

Feckless Rogue wrote:We'd have beaten England with O'Brien. He's that good. He would have been worth at least three points. Henry hasn't put a foot wrong but he'll never threaten teams with the ball like O'Brien does.

Trimble is doing a great job but Bowe would have been better.
Kearney is doing a good job but one of Earls/Zebo/Fitzgerald would have been better.

I actually think Fitzgerald would have been starting if fit. He can do everything Kearney can do plus has a knack of opening up defences and making breaks. Schmidt likes him. He doesn't score many tries though. But neither has Kearney.

I like wingers who have the speed and finishing ability of Earls or Zebo. Our wingers are very similar at the moment. One speed demon would give us something extra.

I see you failed to mention Gilroy in there

ChequeredJersey wrote:Feckless, if you'd had O'Brien, would your backrow have been as well balanced as it has this year, or would it flatter to deceive like last year when POM and SOB were in tandem ?

Last year was Kidney. This Ireland isn't Kidney. Unfortunately it'll be Autumn now at least before we see how he'd work in Schmidt's Ireland - a coach he's all so familiar with.
I think we can assume that ideas of 'balance' won't be keeping one of our most natural potent players off the Irish team in the years to come.

I was just playing devil's advocate to the idea that SOB would have made the difference to win that match


SOB at 6, POM at 7, Heaslip at 8 with Henry or Henderson on the bench looks devastating

ChequeredJersey wrote:I was just playing devil's advocate to the idea that SOB would have made the difference to win that match


SOB at 6, POM at 7, Heaslip at 8 with Henry or Henderson on the bench looks devastating

So play SOB and POM out of position?

a) POM has been playing like "a traditional 7", and SOB does a lot of what a "traditional 6" does in his carrying etc. My putting them in these number slots refers to getting them to focus on (though obviously not purely doing) these aspects each which suits their strengths, especially as SOB's carrying was what was referred when someone said he'd have made a huge difference
b) If the flankers compliment each other the numbers on their shirts mean absolutely nothing
c) what an odd , over-aggressive reaction to a post

I should have elaborated more, SOB has developed his game this season and before his injury was playing more like a traditional 7

The form of Irelands backrow will provide a lot of questions come the autumn if everyone is fit

marty2086 wrote:I should have elaborated more, SOB has developed his game this season and before his injury was playing more like a traditional 7

The form of Irelands backrow will provide a lot of questions come the autumn if everyone is fit

#

Sorry then, I shouldn't have been hypocritical and done what I accused you of!

Swap SOB and POM around then, it would be like a harder carrying version of Wood-Robshaw and that certainly works as a pairing