Wales forwards coach Robin McBryde fears loose-head prop Gethin Jenkins' scrummaging is being singled out for punishment by referees.

Hmmmmmm, so two refs are wrong and RM knows better. May I suggest Mr McBryde you get on with your job of coaching Gathin to overcome this problem

https://www.606v2.com/t52468-mcbryde-seeks-irb-clarification-on-referreeing-of-the-scrum



I would argue (but then I would) that that was a more reasoned article, yet it was threatened with closure for wummery.





For what it is worth I believe any coach is within their rights to seek clarification of decisions and the decision making process (just as Rowntree was) but that it is a shame that it is in the media before hand (again similar to Rowntree).

Anyone who defended Rowntree (I did) should defend McBryde (I do) and anyone who castigated Rowntree (lots) should castigate McBryde (yeah right)

Or as I have said for sometime take Gethins all round game away and he' not our best scrummager.

Much like Rowentree's efforts, could this be an attempt to influence referees in future to giving the benefit of the doubt to Mr90DegreeAngle? Call me an old cynic...

Every coach has the right to ask questions of the ref etc even when they lose. What I don't understand is his quote of '"The most important thing from my point of view is that we get that clarity, because if we don't get that it just ends up in a guessing game." Warburton was told after the 1st scrum he would be looking at Jenkins as he felt he wasn't scrummaging straight. He also talked about the same point to Warburton later on. Is this a case where the captain just didn't pass it on leaving Jenkins (and the coaching team it seems) in the dark?

Hope in future he won't be automatic starter James is and has been a far superior scrummager.

Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions. Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did. There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Every coach has the right to ask questions of the ref etc even when they lose. What I don't understand is his quote of '"The most important thing from my point of view is that we get that clarity, because if we don't get that it just ends up in a guessing game."  Warburton was told after the 1st scrum he would be looking at Jenkins as he felt he wasn't scrummaging straight. He also talked about the same point to Warburton later on. Is this a case where the captain just didn't pass it on leaving Jenkins (and the coaching team it seems) in the dark?

Poite was very clear about what was going on.

It was also very clear that he was boring in - everyone knew before the game that he would, and he did - he got warned and continued to do so - got warned again - continued to do so - got carded

In my mine, was one of the only times I could clearly see what was wrong in a scrum

Well 2 yellow cards in 2 games, something has to be looked at, and I'm not convinced its a referee conspiracy.

To be fair, we had the benefit of the overhead camera which made it fairly clear. Altho, it is interesting to speculate that an English front row move of one half step to the left and snap surge forward could have the same effect - either way, kudos to them if that's what was going on, cos there's no question that the end result was Jenkins left out and at an angle

No 7&1/2 wrote:Every coach has the right to ask questions of the ref etc even when they lose. What I don't understand is his quote of '"The most important thing from my point of view is that we get that clarity, because if we don't get that it just ends up in a guessing game."  Warburton was told after the 1st scrum he would be looking at Jenkins as he felt he wasn't scrummaging straight. He also talked about the same point to Warburton later on. Is this a case where the captain just didn't pass it on leaving Jenkins (and the coaching team it seems) in the dark?

spot on. Brian Moore identified it on the very first scrum in real time and said the penalty could easily have gone against gethin jenkins. i think that gethin going 90degrees on virtually every scrum the whole match is pretty clear. not sure what extra clarity McBryde wants. maybe McBryde was referring to the first scrum only as a guessing game when Poite got it wrong?

Thing is. Against France he was yellowed for collapsing. Against England he was carded for boring in.

Can someone tell me what he did differently to Paul James who from the overhead camera was at the exact same angle? But yet Wales got the penalty?

offload wrote:Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions.  Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did.  There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

yes there is, but the story is not about coaches seeking clarification. the story is about the correct identification of infringements at the scrum, which were spotted this year, and weren't spotted last year. Rowntree had a good point, McBryde is trying to save his own skin. That's the story.

Unfortunately for the offense that led to the yellow card there is no wisdom that Jenkins was not driving straight. He had plenty of warnings and didn't change so it was good own fault.

slartibartfast wrote:Thing is. Against France he was yellowed for collapsing. Against England he was carded for boring in.

Can someone tell me what he did differently to Paul James who from the overhead camera was at the exact same angle? But yet Wales got the penalty?

There wasn't but the ref didn't spot it. Not sure McBryde would be best using that as a point though!

Rowntree was wrong in 2013. McBride is wrong now.

Shouldn't just stick it out. There are what 8 major test referees out there at the moment... chances are you will be refereed more than once a season by the same guy. I'm sure Poite has his opinions on all the test referees.... if you get a reputation for cheating (in his mind) its going to become second nature for him to start pinging him often.

quinsforever wrote:

offload wrote:Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions.  Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did.  There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

yes there is, but the story is not about coaches seeking clarification. the story is about the correct identification of infringements at the scrum, which were spotted this year, and weren't spotted last year. Rowntree had a good point, McBryde is trying to save his own skin. That's the story.

McBryde shouldn't have a job in the WRU anyway. I didn't really rate him as a hooker and so him trying to coach our hooker's to throw straight etc is a bit daft.

But was Jenkins penalised for his body angle? I thought he was mostly penalised for illegally wheeling the scrum.

quinsforever wrote:

offload wrote:Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions.  Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did.  There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

yes there is, but the story is not about coaches seeking clarification. the story is about the correct identification of infringements at the scrum, which were spotted this year, and weren't spotted last year. Rowntree had a good point, McBryde is trying to save his own skin. That's the story.

Oh dear Quins. That's disingenuous, myopic and wrong. You may think you have all the answers but that doesn't mean you do. A lot of people last year thought things were clear too, namely England's front row got stuffed, rather than infringements weren't spotted. You should find a little grace and assume peoples best intention. Rowntree and McBryde are both right to seek clarification - that's why the system is there. It happens a lot - just doesn't make the press.

slartibartfast wrote:Thing is. Against France he was yellowed for collapsing. Against England he was carded for boring in.

Can someone tell me what he did differently to Paul James who from the overhead camera was at the exact same angle? But yet Wales got the penalty?

I did think that was funny. In that scrum it was clear in the overhead camera that James was at about 45° before they even engaged.

But I think a big part of this is the fact the ref isn't calling everything. The ref noticed Jenkins (or had it pointed out to him as I think Robshaw said after the first scrum) so he stood on Jenkins side and was looking specifically at this issue. If he saw it he penalised. For James' first scrum the ref was on Jones' side and the AR was looking at James. Different people, different opinions on what is ok, different results. I said the same thing last year.

offload wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

offload wrote:Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions.  Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did.  There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

yes there is, but the story is not about coaches seeking clarification. the story is about the correct identification of infringements at the scrum, which were spotted this year, and weren't spotted last year. Rowntree had a good point, McBryde is trying to save his own skin. That's the story.

Oh dear Quins.  That's disingenuous, myopic and wrong.  You may think you have all the answers but that doesn't mean you do.   A lot of people last year thought things were clear too, namely England's front row got stuffed, rather than infringements weren't spotted.  You should find a little grace and assume peoples best intention.  Rowntree and McBryde are both right to seek clarification - that's why the system is there.  It happens a lot - just doesn't make the press.

I could understand McBryde seeking clarification if the Refereeing decisions had been ambiguous, but they weren't. Jenkins's scrummaging was illegal from the 1st scrum, Poite warned him and yet he still carried on doing it (no plan B?) and eventually, he was sent off for ten minutes. Equally, Rowntree was witness to the dismantling of his pack last year, and probably should have let it go, but with hindsight it's clear that Jenkins and Co have been pushing the law very close for some while now and Rowntree was trying to bring that to a wider forum I suspect. McBryde hasn't got a moral leg to stand on.

McBryde is within his rights to ask why Gethin is being punished by Refs, No problem with that just as Rowntree was right to ask.

But maybe he should just watch Gethin scrummage and it would be made very clear why he is being punished, the guy is struggling with the new laws, can you teach an old dog new tricks?

offload wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

offload wrote:Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions.  Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did.  There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

yes there is, but the story is not about coaches seeking clarification. the story is about the correct identification of infringements at the scrum, which were spotted this year, and weren't spotted last year. Rowntree had a good point, McBryde is trying to save his own skin. That's the story.

Oh dear Quins.  That's disingenuous, myopic and wrong.  You may think you have all the answers but that doesn't mean you do.   A lot of people last year thought things were clear too, namely England's front row got stuffed, rather than infringements weren't spotted.  You should find a little grace and assume peoples best intention.  Rowntree and McBryde are both right to seek clarification - that's why the system is there.  It happens a lot - just doesn't make the press.

plain wrong. scrums involving wales are statistically 2x as likely to involve penalties than any other sides. so wales have always been pushing the envelope of the laws. fair enough, that's all part of the game. but rowntree had a point, as the arm-bindings last year were completely missed by walsh. nothing was missed about jenkins 90degree shoving.

i have no problem with coaches seeking "guidance". it's stupid for them to leak it though. but there was plenty of dispute over walsh's scrum interpretation last year. absolutely zero so far over poite's, even from welsh posters here.

Jenkins hasn't been the player he was for sometime now. I have said all along that what stood him out from the crowd at his best was his all round performances, he could largely hold his own in the scrum but it was that added dimension to his game that got him the accolades he rightly deserved at the time.

However his all round game has dropped off as well and he is not as consistent a player as he once was, now that can be blamed on a lot of things, injury (his calf has been problem for some while) poor season at Toulon (they wanted an out n out power scrummager in Sheridan) so that reduced his gametime and affected fitness and finally in a very very poor Blues side at the moment.

So when you take away his all round game that he was renowned for then he's not our best technical scrummager and for me shouldn't have started any of the games and I have said that from the off so not just jumping on him after poor England game.

Jimpy wrote:

offload wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

offload wrote:Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions.  Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did.  There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

yes there is, but the story is not about coaches seeking clarification. the story is about the correct identification of infringements at the scrum, which were spotted this year, and weren't spotted last year. Rowntree had a good point, McBryde is trying to save his own skin. That's the story.

Oh dear Quins.  That's disingenuous, myopic and wrong.  You may think you have all the answers but that doesn't mean you do.   A lot of people last year thought things were clear too, namely England's front row got stuffed, rather than infringements weren't spotted.  You should find a little grace and assume peoples best intention.  Rowntree and McBryde are both right to seek clarification - that's why the system is there.  It happens a lot - just doesn't make the press.

I could understand McBryde seeking clarification if the Refereeing decisions had been ambiguous, but they weren't. Jenkins's scrummaging was illegal from the 1st scrum, Poite warned him and yet he still carried on doing it (no plan B?) and eventually, he was sent off for ten minutes. Equally, Rowntree was witness to the dismantling of his pack last year, and probably should have let it go, but with hindsight it's clear that Jenkins and Co have been pushing the law very close for some while now and Rowntree was trying to bring that to a wider forum I suspect. McBryde hasn't got a moral leg to stand on.

Fortunately coaches don't need to rely on your opinion of ambiguity, hindsight or moral standing. They can ask questions to become better coaches. It's remarkable that the first intention of so many posters on here is to preach their version of the truth.

Wish somebody would ask the question as to what MvBryde doing in set up anyway.

Wish somebody would ask the question as to what MvBryde doing in set up anyway.

Quins - I respect many of your posts on here so I'm just going to disagree and leave it.

How many games did he play for Toulon?

Wiki doesn't have any apperances for him?

offload wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

offload wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

offload wrote:Not only is McBryde within his right, he also has an obligation to seek clarification if he doesn't understand the decisions.  Any responsible coach would do that just as Rowntree did.  There's no story here, just as there wasn't a year ago.

yes there is, but the story is not about coaches seeking clarification. the story is about the correct identification of infringements at the scrum, which were spotted this year, and weren't spotted last year. Rowntree had a good point, McBryde is trying to save his own skin. That's the story.

Oh dear Quins.  That's disingenuous, myopic and wrong.  You may think you have all the answers but that doesn't mean you do.   A lot of people last year thought things were clear too, namely England's front row got stuffed, rather than infringements weren't spotted.  You should find a little grace and assume peoples best intention.  Rowntree and McBryde are both right to seek clarification - that's why the system is there.  It happens a lot - just doesn't make the press.

I could understand McBryde seeking clarification if the Refereeing decisions had been ambiguous, but they weren't. Jenkins's scrummaging was illegal from the 1st scrum, Poite warned him and yet he still carried on doing it (no plan B?) and eventually, he was sent off for ten minutes. Equally, Rowntree was witness to the dismantling of his pack last year, and probably should have let it go, but with hindsight it's clear that Jenkins and Co have been pushing the law very close for some while now and Rowntree was trying to bring that to a wider forum I suspect. McBryde hasn't got a moral leg to stand on.

Fortunately coaches don't need to rely on your opinion of ambiguity, hindsight or moral standing.  They can ask questions to become better coaches.  It's remarkable that the first intention of so many posters on here is to preach their version of the truth.

In this particular case, they don't need to as Jenkins was scrummaging illegally, he was warned, he didn't stop, he was yellow carded. It's as clear as day why it happened, and McBryde ought to take it on the chin. If he needs to know why Jenkins's scrummaging was illegal so he can become a better coach, then he's probably a pretty poor coach to start with, because seemingly the vast majority of people (including me) have the same opinion. Preaching a version of the truth? Get real will you, the truth was plain to see, it's not my fault you don't agree with it.

Scrumpy wrote:How many games did he play for Toulon?

Wiki doesn't have any apperances for him?

Scrumpy,

Not sure, I think he was involved in most (injury permitting) but was never 1st choice and played limited time off then bench.

This is my favourite bit.

'McBryde confirmed he would be writing to Poite and International Rugby Board (IRB) referees' chief Joel Jutge for "clarity" over the scrums.' (BBC website)

I didn't know he could write!

bedfordwelsh wrote:Wish somebody would ask the question as to what MvBryde doing in set up anyway.

Bedford - I've defended McBrydes right to ask questions but I agree, I've no idea why he's in the role. As far as I can remember he had very little coaching experience before the welsh set up. We might be stuck with Gatland, but perhaps we could do with some fresh thinking in his team.

offload wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Wish somebody would ask the question as to what MvBryde doing in set up anyway.

Bedford - I've defended McBrydes right to ask questions but I agree, I've no idea why he's in the role.  As far as I can remember he had very little coaching experience before the welsh set up.  We might be stuck with Gatland, but perhaps we could do with some fresh thinking in his team.

  Something else I have said for a while but who though, I know who my choice would be to come in as forwards coach but think he's quite happy in his Russian/Dragons role.

i am glad you agree that coaches seeking clarification is not an issue.

i am sorry you are unable to see that wales' scrummaging is very much an issue. it's a deliberate strategy to attempt to win kickable penalties (harnessing 1/2Ps amazing boot). nothing wrong with that, but it's a big reason why Wales are involved in the most scrum penalties. when a ref correctly takes away that advantage, Wales lose, as they dont get possession, penatlies or go-forward ball, and with a losing scrum it's amazing the pressure that puts on welsh (or any team's) players in open play and how many knock-ons seem to happen.

offload wrote:Quins - I respect many of your posts on here so I'm just going to disagree and leave it.

  don't think we are really so far apart actually.

offload wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Wish somebody would ask the question as to what MvBryde doing in set up anyway.

Bedford - I've defended McBrydes right to ask questions but I agree, I've no idea why he's in the role.  As far as I can remember he had very little coaching experience before the welsh set up.  We might be stuck with Gatland, but perhaps we could do with some fresh thinking in his team.

Hence why I started a thread yesterday Offload so that things like the above comment could be discussed!

So you think McBryde should go?

I agree with the general consensus. McBryde is perfectly entitled to seek clarification from the referee's decisions, but in this case it seems a little odd as there is no doubt whatsoever that Jenkins was boring in, massively so. He was warned after the first scrum, warned again, eventually Poite gave the "next time is a YC" speech, and shock-horror when Jenkins again turned in at 90°, he pulled out a yellow!

The France game was a bit stranger, the scrums just kept collapsing (possibly in part due to the pitch), and Wales did seem to have the upper hand generally (though Mas reckons they were pushing before the ball went in...)

Get real will you, the truth was plain to see, it's not my fault you don't agree with it.   

Jimpy, unlike Quins, I have little respect for your posts and I can't be bothered to enlighten you further. I'm pleased to learn that so much in your world is plain to see and not your fault.   

Here you go Offload.

https://www.606v2.com/t52498-is-a-50-win-ratio-good-enough-for-welsh-fans

Scrumpy wrote:

offload wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Wish somebody would ask the question as to what MvBryde doing in set up anyway.

Bedford - I've defended McBrydes right to ask questions but I agree, I've no idea why he's in the role.  As far as I can remember he had very little coaching experience before the welsh set up.  We might be stuck with Gatland, but perhaps we could do with some fresh thinking in his team.

Hence why I started a thread yesterday Offload so that things like the above comment could be discussed!

So you think McBryde should go?

I think that even in the best coaching set ups, things run the course and bringing in new ideas and approaches is necessary. Edwards, Howley and McBryde have been involved for a long time and the Welsh team do not seem to be pushing on. Many reasons I'm sure, but some fresh perspective in the coaching team could make a big difference.

Befdfordwelsh wrote:Hope in future he won't be automatic starter James is and has been a far superior scrummager.

Is James not a worse offender than Jenks at shoving squint?

I think he is.

Scrumpy wrote:Here you go Offload.

https://www.606v2.com/t52498-is-a-50-win-ratio-good-enough-for-welsh-fans

   I see your making a real efforts towards that 50% goal Srcumpy.   

offload wrote:Get real will you, the truth was plain to see, it's not my fault you don't agree with it.    

Jimpy, unlike Quins, I have little respect for your posts and I can't be bothered to enlighten you further.  I'm pleased to learn that so much in your world is plain to see and not your fault.     

What you actually mean is 'I was wrong but wont dare admit it'. Whether you respect me or not (I couldn't care less about you personally, so its mutual), it doesn't alter the fact that my opinion is more than valid and in line with what many others have written, so i'm not sure what your problem is.

quinsforever wrote:I am sorry you are unable to see that wales' scrummaging is very much an issue. it's a deliberate strategy to attempt to win kickable penalties (harnessing 1/2Ps amazing boot). nothing wrong with that, but it's a big reason why Wales are involved in the most scrum penalties. when a ref correctly takes away that advantage, Wales lose, as they dont get possession, penatlies or go-forward ball, and with a losing scrum it's amazing the pressure that puts on welsh (or any team's) players in open play and how many knock-ons seem to happen.

It does make you wonder how much of the Welsh (and Lions in the summer) strategy is based on getting penalties in the scrum. Maybe that's why they kept dropping the ball when on the attack - they were expecting to win a penalty from the resulting scrum and almost guarantee an additional 3 points.

offload wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

offload wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Wish somebody would ask the question as to what MvBryde doing in set up anyway.

Bedford - I've defended McBrydes right to ask questions but I agree, I've no idea why he's in the role.  As far as I can remember he had very little coaching experience before the welsh set up.  We might be stuck with Gatland, but perhaps we could do with some fresh thinking in his team.

Hence why I started a thread yesterday Offload so that things like the above comment could be discussed!

So you think McBryde should go?

I think that even in the best coaching set ups, things run the course and bringing in new ideas and approaches is necessary. Edwards, Howley and McBryde have been involved for a long time and the Welsh team do not seem to be pushing on. Many reasons I'm sure, but some fresh perspective in the coaching team could make a big difference.

I agree.

I've made it clear I'm no Gatland fan but his record shows he gets results, but the guys around him have been a mixed bag when they have gone on their own.
Wales need some new ideas maybe now is the right time to bring in one or two new faces.

Firstly, McBryde is entiled to ask

Secondly, Jenkins is a great player in the loose. The engine on that man is amazing!

However, it is great to see ref's finally coming down hard on front row forwards who are illegally scrummaging.
Scrums are the current blight on the game, they are even worse than arial ping pong. The watching audiance completely switch off when you get reset after reset. The IRB have made changes to the rules to try and make things better, but in today's professional environment, forwards are trying to win penalties at the scrum.
If a scrum goes down due to pressure on both sides or the ground gives way, then sure, reset the scrum. But when teams pull them down, or bore in, on wheel, or push early then award freekicks or penalties. Persistent offending, card them! The rules are all there. Refs just need to use them more.

I long for the days when scrums were a way to contest the restart of a game. All this cheating (no other word for it) is ruining the game. A prop pulling down a scrum to try and win a penalty is the same as a footballer throwing himself to the ground in the box. Both are a farce and it should be stamped out!

tiger,

That's just it though I don't think he is the player he once was in the loose.

I think he is. He was immense against France. The ground he covered to tackle a french player who had fielded a kick was crazy

Scrummaging has never been Gethin's strong point. Unless there was something causing it we don't know about, it did look as though he was boring in. What is a bit strange is that someone with over 100 caps wouldn't adjust when it was obvious the ref didn't like the way he was scrummaging.

I never understood how McBryde got to be forwards coach, he had bog all experience before he was brought in.

I find the idea it was the refereeing that lost England last year's game a bit pathetic (as pathetic as any suggestion it was the ref who lost Wales the game this year). It was obvious before the game we'd munch your props. At that point in time and under the old rules, Marler's scrummaging compared to Adam Jones was just too weak, and as for Vunipola...