Format of club competitions

by barragan Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:22 am

Since I took up my role within our club handicap committee, one question I'm often asked is 'why are there so few stableford competitions'. When compiling this years fixtures, I suggested we increase the number from 1 non-qualifier stableford, and this season our individual competition schedule is as follows:

1 bogey competition (NQ)
4 stablefords (inc. 1 NQ)
20 strokeplay competitions

These are played wed/sat/sun from next weekend (first 2 are NQs) to mid Oct.

How does your club do theirs?

Personally, I'd like there to be more qualifying competitions. Not that I'd play them all, but I'd like to play a few more.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:30 pm

We get the same sort of comments re. stablefords - people want more of that sort of format (personally, I think they're wusses!).

I'm in the same boat and recently on the Handicap etc ctte. I'm certainly going to suggest a whole lot more over the Winter as we don't have a lot now. Going to try to sell them on the idea of a mixture of 3-club, greensome and foursome NQ comps over the Winter. We'll see...

by MontysMerkin Wed 12 Mar 2014, 12:58 pm

Stablefords seem pretty popular with the higher handicaps and the blokes who want a quick comp (instead of the 4.5 hr + rounds you get in a medal). At least at our place

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 12 Mar 2014, 1:10 pm

Stablefords at our place are just as slow as qualifier Medals. Terrible!

by MontysMerkin Wed 12 Mar 2014, 1:31 pm

Really? Ours are quicker by about 30 mins. Watching someone using the 5th as a driving range before hitting one that they might have a chance of finding is frustrating and holds up the whole field!

by Davie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 2:01 pm

As I understand it you can't make a Stableford a NQ except under exceptional circumstances (too many temps, shortened tees etc)

I believe CONGU rules state that a Stableford MUST be Qualifier unless these exceptional circumstances apply

by barragan Wed 12 Mar 2014, 2:59 pm

congu says wrote:Although a club committee or Handicapping Authority has the right to deprive certain competitions
of their status as Qualifying Competitions this discretion should not be abused. It is considered to be
outside the spirit and intent of the UHS to deliberately adjust the terms and conditions of a
competition so that it is technically Non Qualifying. Examples of situations used to circumvent and
abuse the handicapping rules are:
• The imposition of a limitation to the number of golf clubs a competitor may use. (This does not refer
to traditional five-club competitions and the like which may continue to be run as Non Qualifying
Competitions.)
• Intentionally moving one or more tees forward when aMeasured Course is available and in a suitable
condition for play.
• Imposing a handicap allowance limitation of, for example, 7/8ths.

by Davie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 4:36 pm

That's the one .. So how are you getting around this abuse and contravention of the spirit intended?

by barragan Wed 12 Mar 2014, 4:44 pm

Davie, I think you are misreading this -

A club committee[...]has the right to deprive certain competitions of their status as Qualifying Competitions.

If we were declaring them NQ because we were running them as 13 club comps, then that would be against the spirit of the UHS - for example.

but it is ok to have 'certain' competitions as NQers

by barragan Wed 12 Mar 2014, 4:45 pm

personally i'd perfer if they were both qualifiers.

by Bob_the_Job Wed 12 Mar 2014, 4:48 pm

Our club alternates traditional stroke and stableford (which is a form of stroke play) competitions every Saturday through the season and they are all usually qualifying. Occasionally they throw in the odd "fun competition" like 4BBB or a scramble which are non qualifying. There's a monthly medal on the first Sunday of each month too, so if you're keen you can easily end up playing 20 or more qualifying competitions in the year without playing any opens.

by Davie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 4:50 pm

I'd say you were the one misreading it - or rather I assume that the part highlighted it was your stress and not as it appeared on CONGU

Personally I would have highlighted it as such...

CONGU wrote:Although a club committee or Handicapping Authority has the right to deprive certain competitions
of their status as Qualifying Competitions this discretion should not be abused. It is considered to be
outside the spirit and intent of the UHS to deliberately adjust the terms and conditions of a
competition so that it is technically Non Qualifying. Examples of situations used to circumvent and
abuse the handicapping rules are:
• The imposition of a limitation to the number of golf clubs a competitor may use. (This does not refer
to traditional five-club competitions and the like which may continue to be run as Non Qualifying
Competitions.)
• Intentionally moving one or more tees forward when a Measured Course is available and in a suitable
condition for play.
• Imposing a handicap allowance limitation of, for example, 7/8ths.

by barragan Wed 12 Mar 2014, 5:10 pm

so at our club, the question is whether making the first 2 individual club comps of the season NQ's is abusing the right that the club do have to deprive 'certain' competitions of their qualifying status. i would say no, it isn't.

i highlighted the part i did, because it clearly states that a club can declare 'certain' comps NQs. it goes on to discourage doing this in an underhand manner, e.g.
• 13 club comp
• shortened course
• 7/8ths handicap allowance

some other extracts of some relevance:

UHS 17.3 wrote:The declaration that a competition is a Non Qualifying Competition disqualifies all scores returned
in that competition from being used directly for handicap purposes.Thus a player returning a score
below his handicap will not have his Exact Handicap reduced nor will a score above the Buffer Zone
increase his Exact Handicap. Performance in Non-Qualifying Competitions is only one of a number
of factors to be considered in the Annual Review of Members’ handicaps.

I wonder if you may be confusing this with Reduction only competitions:

UHS 17/1 wrote:
Q. Are there any circumstances under which a club can run Stroke Play, Par/Bogey or Stableford
competitions where handicaps can be reduced but not increased?
A. A club does not have the authority to run competitions in which handicaps can be reduced but
not increased.When a competition is declared Non Qualifying handicaps can neither be reduced
nor increased. There are only two situations within the UHS when handicaps can be reduced
but not increased.These are:
• A competition where application of the CSS calculation determines that the competition is
Reduction Only (R/O). See Clause 8.4.
• When a competition has been abandoned for a valid reason, reductions of handicap are
made on the basis that the CSS is equal to the SSS. See Clause 8.6.

UHS 17.3/1 wrote:17.3/1 Adjustment ofHandicaps inNon-Qualifying Competitions
Q. The Handicap Committee in our club has taken the decision to make competitions Non Qualifying for
the duration of the ‘Preferred Lie’ period. Resulting from this decision a number of competitors who
played below the course SSS in such competitions are seeking a reduction in their ExactHandicap. Is this
permitted?
A. It is a fundamental tenet of the UHS that handicap adjustments can only be applied in Qualifying
Competitions when handicaps are adjusted, upwards and downwards as appropriate, in relation to
the CSS.To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced, would distort the balance
on which the system is based.To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in
Non-Qualifying Competitions is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system.To permit
the UHS to operate as intended, all competitions should be run,whenever possible, as Qualifying
Competitions. A number of dispensations for winter play have been granted by CONGU® to
encourage this, including preferred lies and use of artificial mats.

Highlighted in the last part - yes Congu do want all comps to be qualifiers - but they do allow clubs to run NQ's, should they wish for certain comps. They must not run reduction only comps though!!

by puligny Wed 12 Mar 2014, 5:22 pm

You wouldn't get away with stableford or medal off full handicap being non qualifying at either of my clubs. Agree completely with Davie's view of the CONGU regs.
We have a few, greensomes, 4BBB comps through the year but no artificial adjustments to course length etc to avoid qualifying status would be allowed. Oh and the ladies have more comps than the men!

by Hibbz Wed 12 Mar 2014, 6:16 pm

I'd read it the same as Davie as well. I think what they are getting at is that all comps should be qualifying apart from any comp with rules requiring a limited number of clubs, a shortened course or reduced handicaps which are automatically non qualifying but that committees shouldn't impose these rules as a way of making comps non-qualifying.

Committees can if they wish make any comp non-qualifying but they shouldn't abuse the right to do so on a regular basis.

Also stableford comps are strokeplay comps the difference is between medal comps and stablefords comps and strokeplay comps and matchplay comps.

We have competitions every Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday. Over the course of a month the split is about 3:1 stablefords over medal (all qualifying) with a foursomes, greensomes or betterball thrown in once in a while.

by beninho Wed 12 Mar 2014, 7:19 pm

Discretion should not be abused. Jesus, it's a golf club not the united nations. Can a club not do what they want? If the members are happy with the agreement. Why can't they do whatever they want?

by Davie Wed 12 Mar 2014, 7:58 pm

I only took the stance I have on this thread because my own club were warned about 18 months ago for allowing NQ Stableford competitions. Last summer was our 20th anniversary of the club and there were 3 competitions (with associated celebrations over a Fri-Sun weekend). I think the "serious" comp was the Sunday which was some sort of medal round; the Saturday comp was organised by the Junior and Ladies section and was a fun scramble or team event (obviously a NQ) .. the Seniors organised the Friday event and wanted it to be a Stableford but in the spirit of the celebratory weekend didn't want it to be too serious. They were quite p*ssed off when the committee told them it had to be a Qualie because CONGU were not happy with NW stablefords.

Far from trying to be argumentative or controversial with my opinions on here, I was actually trying to help you avoid some grief and I'm gratified to see that others here agree with me.

by Hibbz Wed 12 Mar 2014, 8:01 pm

Sure they can Ben, but if a club wants to be a part of CONGU then they need to stick to CONGU's rules mate. I think you'll find yourself in a minority (albeit a happy minority) when you don't really give a .... about whether your handicap is official etc.

Personally I'm not overly bothered about my position in a handicap golf event within my own club but I am very competitive about my handicap and like the fact that you can compare your golf ability to people countrywide. If other clubs used different rules and stuff on a regular basis it would remove the competitive element that appeals to me.

If that makes me a bit of a d!ck then so be it.

by SmithersJones Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:47 pm

I was going to add my name to the list of Davie's 'supporters' but then I remembered that our Captain's day is a non-qualifying, full handicap stableford. So unless it being a mixed competition is in some way a 'reason' for it not being a qualifier then I guess our committee too exercises its right to declare a comp nq. They're generally pretty compliant with the CONGU rules so I'd be surprised if they were wrong on this.

by Davie Thu 13 Mar 2014, 6:08 am

Of course reading that statement again, it says you may have the "right" to remove the qualifying status of a comp be a variety of means. The unspoken corollary though is that if you DON'T reduce the length of the course, or introduce rules on number of clubs or apply handicap reductions, then the competition MUST be a qualifier. The statement ONLY allows for removing the qualifying status by these means (whether you consider it against the spirit or not). Hence my belief that if you are playing a Stableford off the measured course (or withing the prescribed limits) and no trick handicaps or 3-club rule, then you are in contravention of CONGU rules by declaring it NQ

by McLaren Thu 13 Mar 2014, 6:34 am

I remember now why I stay well clear of club comps.

by puligny Thu 13 Mar 2014, 6:54 am

It's all about maintaining (creating) the integrity of the handicap system. Simples!

by McLaren Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:28 am

I get it, but there is golf and then cub comp golf. They are not really the same game.

by Roller_Coaster Thu 13 Mar 2014, 9:22 am

It seems like we're mostly stablefords but regardless we also operate on the basis that if it is an individual 18 hole strokeplay over a measured course (with no restrictions like 3 clubs) it is a qualifier.

What seems clear to me is that they can be deemed non qualifying for a variety of reasons and some clubs do and some don't. Personally, I prefer the approach of them being qualifiers as often as possible. If nothing else, it's a much simpler policy to adhere to than possibly having to justify why this one wasn't while this one was.

by twoeightnine Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:39 pm

I find it interesting the way that people think of wanting to play NQs. Personally I would go down the route that all rounds are entered as I think they are in the US. Then you drop the worst 5 of 20 or something like that. That way your handicap is more representative of how you are playing.

I know that the vast majority of people who want a comp to be NQ are not trying to stop being cut but in fact the other way but it makes me think that we are too precious about the handicap qualifying method and our system is not right. Although I understand why people would prefer a more relaxed round though.

As for people preferring staplefords, even strokeplay medals are turned into a sort of stapleford for hc purposes. Downside with a stapleford is that when you have played really badly everyone can see as you cannot just put NR down and pretend it was just a couple of bad holes!

by George1507 Thu 13 Mar 2014, 5:17 pm

Leaving aside the discussion about CONGU and handicaps, I think most UK clubs have a monthly medal and a monthly stableford (at least from April until October) - usually on weekends. Sometimes there are midweek versions too. Then some named competitions are interwoven with the normal monthly competitions. In some clubs the monthly medal and a named competition might be the same event - so the July medal is in fact the Albert Scroggins Memorial Trophy (for example). Winners of the monthly medals and stablefords get to play in some sort of play off event at the end of the season.

Most clubs have at least one bogey competition during the year too. Occasionally - for reasons I have never understood - particular clubs play lots of bogey competitions - at least one a month. Hadley Wood has about 8 bogey competitions each year I believe.

I quite understand why stablefords are popular - it means a bad hole doesn't ruin your card, and if a ball is lost unexpectedly, you don't need to trail back to the tee again. One in a club season seems very little and it's unsurprising you are being asked for more.

by dynamark Thu 13 Mar 2014, 6:54 pm

I played today lovely as it happened fella off 14 made 3 birdies and hit it about 70 yards past me.im 14 but on a different planet.hope that's the golf season started .Handicaps we need a slope system TBH

by dynamark Thu 13 Mar 2014, 6:54 pm

I played today lovely as it happened fella off 14 made 3 birdies and hit it about 70 yards past me.im 14 but on a different planet.hope that's the golf season started .Handicaps we need a slope system TBH

by super_realist Thu 13 Mar 2014, 6:56 pm

The first Sweep of each month is Stableford at one of my clubs, and I think there is another couple too including the event with Two Flags per hole, with one sensible and one ludicrous pin.

by Davie Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:14 pm

Reading what people say here seems fairly indicative of my own club. Once we get to April most of our comps are Medal, but there is a continuing event throughout the summer which is Stableford (5 rounds over the summer with best 3 scores to count). One bogey come, plus a few team events and a scramble.

Personally I love the medal comps even though they are more stressful for the higher handicapper like me.

First medal in a couple of weeks time which I feel is perhaps a little early! Would rather get a few more stablefords under my belt before the really serious stuff starts.

This weekend sees the first "board" comp - a 4BBB pairs comp with random draw for partners

by George1507 Thu 13 Mar 2014, 10:42 pm

S_R,

Do you have to specify which flag you are shooting for before you play the hole? Or before you hit your approach? Or just when on the green?

by super_realist Fri 14 Mar 2014, 8:47 am

YEah, I can't remember what it's called (Power Play Golf????, maybe), but there are 18 normal flags ,and 18 flags with Skull and Crossbones on them. You nominate on the tee, or if you are a real man, you just accept you're going for the hard flag at all times. Double stableford points for the hard flag.
Pin isn't always on the green, can be on the top of a bunker or anywhere around the green where there is reasonable surface for putting.

It's good fun, and makes a competition far less important. Good laugh as you can end up four or five putting.

by raycastleunited Sat 15 Mar 2014, 8:39 pm

My club has stableford in winter and then medal in summer. The non-qual comps eg 3-club and scramble are all in winter. From April to October we have a qualifying comp pretty much every week, nearly always medal, with the odd stableford for fun competitions like captains day or England v ROW on St Georges day.

You competitive guys would love it.

by raycastleunited Sat 15 Mar 2014, 8:47 pm

super_realist wrote:YEah, I can't remember what it's called (Power Play Golf????, maybe), but there are 18 normal flags ,and 18 flags with Skull and Crossbones on them. You nominate on the tee, or if you are a real man, you just accept you're going for the hard flag at all times. Double stableford points for the hard flag.
Pin isn't always on the green, can be on the top of a bunker or anywhere around the green where there is reasonable surface for putting.

It's good fun, and makes a competition far less important. Good laugh as you can end up four or five putting.

I've played this a couple of times with mates at Northwick Park. Pins not as extreme as on top of bunkers, but on tricky parts of the green eg next to water. Great laugh. Invariably I always ended up sticking my approach right next to the wrong pin.

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