England or Ireland - who is the better team?

First topic message reminder :

Both team had key injuries to top class players so that isnt a factor.

Both teams were involved in the Lions tour so fatigue doesnt figure.

Despite the media's obsession with age the majority of Ireland's best players are all quite young.

England are ranked 4th and Ireland 5th and they beat Ireland by 3 points in Twickers but Ireland won the championship.

Not next year, not last year, right now the question is who is the best team?

The great teams have success over multiple seasons so Ireland need to kick on and keep the momentum going with two victories in Argentina, before taking a big scalp in the Autumn tests.

The Saint wrote:I wouldn't bother arguing over this. It takes a heck of a lot to convince England they might not be the best team (no WUM intended as per), and besides that it's daft as both are probably as good/bad as each other. There was 3 points in it at Twickenham and not much more in it for the championship. Then there's how both measure up to France in Paris and the mighty former champs at home. So yeah not a lot in it, however England are going to find it very difficult to look good in NZ this summer, where-as Ireland will probably walk all over Arg.

The Saint you aren't factoring in things like when England faced France and when Ireland faced France. Trust me as an England fan I would have much preferred to face Italy away first up instead of France to build up momentum. Ireland got a nice easy match first up. It helps. Sometimes the schedule works for you and sometimes against you.

It's like getting easy or really tough HC pools - they affect the competition! Getting favorable fixtures help too.

beshocked wrote:Me-109 your reasoning for why Ireland are better is definitely questionable.

Fair enough Gunsgerms vs South Africa. England's recent record vs South Africa is not good even though in overall records we have beaten South Africa 3 times as many as Ireland. Ireland didn't inflict on South Africa their heaviest ever defeat did they?

As for NZ - you've never beaten them. A side we beat 2 years ago. Admittedly you pushed them hard last autumn.

As for Australia - we beat them in our last encounter, you got thumped by them.

We perform better against the tri nations than Ireland in general.

Well no its not questionable...its biased, exactly as yours is. Mines is based on the last 6ns, the table doesnt lie and I dont think I have been hallucinating over the course of the tournament (intoxicated maybe).

I think we have come a lot further in a shorter period of time..you say its the last twelve months...CJ says it will all pan out over the next year and a half...I tend to agree.

Gotta love your way of thinking though...

We did have Wales and Ireland at home though. Next year is harder with both away and our away record and home record vs France are quite similar I think. Nevertheless I believe we will win it

Me-109 no it's not. Because you ignore recent head to heads. You ignore world rankings. Basically you ignore anything that makes Ireland look inferior to England.

Keep living in cloud cuckoo land.

What exactly does the table tell you? That Ireland won more matches than England? That Ireland beat England at Twickenham? Your delusion is based upon points difference - a paltry one at that.

We've won the last 3 matches in a row. It's up to Ireland to prove they are better by beating us. Beating one of the tri nations might help too. With Lancaster as coach, Ireland has never beaten England.

I have seen the arguments supporting England and I agree with most of them so here a few facts from Irelands point of view:

*Ireland scored more and conceded less than England throughout the championship and actually won the competition

*When Ireland played England they lost by only 3 point and England were at home, so England have home advantage and look to be the form team in the NH and they only won by 3 pts, when in reality the ref should have at the very least given Ireland a kick at goal at around the 76th min for the England number 8 being offside at the maul, he didn't Ireland lost no big deal because...

*The England game was Ireland first away game under Schmidt

*The game against England was only Irelands 6th game under Schmidt whereas England you would think have had the advantage of playing under Lancaster for a longer period of time

*Ireland came a lot closer to beating NZ in the AI than England did

*Ireland were missing their most important player SOB for the whole 6 Nations and still won

*England made hard work of their game against Wales, how did Ireland fair again them?

*Ireland were missing 6 of their starting team for the whole of the 6 Nations

*This is the most important point, apart from the recent game between the sides Ireland have lost to England 3 out of the last 4 game whilst Kidney was the coaching the team. Schmidt has shown in himself to be a much better coach than Kidney and I just don't see Ireland with the players we have coming back into the squad (Bowe, Ferris, SOB, Ryan, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Payne, Strauss, Earls) losing to England because if Ireland can win the 6 Nations, no less against France in Paris (a team that beat England in round 1) than what could Ireland do with these guys in the team?

We have equally as many first and second choice players to bring in as well, though. And at no point did it look like we might lose to Wales. And specific penalties is a ridiculous thing to base any argument. You COULD argue that France should have had a match winning (and Championship losing for Ireland) penalty at the end of their match. Or that POM should have been carded when trying to stop May. All 3 arguments are valid but meaningless

Which 6 starters are you missing? Ferris and SOB, but then you have to drop your best player, POM, and lose the balance your backrow had. Bowe. Max 4 if you argue that Fitzgerald is first choice, but then you lose your 2nd best player, Trimble...

beshocked wrote:Me-109 no it's not. Because you ignore recent head to heads. You ignore world rankings. Basically you ignore anything that makes Ireland look inferior to England.

Keep living in cloud cuckoo land.

What exactly does the table tell you? That Ireland won more matches than England? That Ireland beat England at Twickenham? Your delusion is based upon points difference - a paltry one at that.

We've won the last 3 matches in a row. It's up to Ireland to prove they are better by beating us. Beating one of the tri nations might help too. With Lancaster as coach, Ireland has never beaten England.

I dare you to want the end of the Ireland vs England match again and tell me that not a penalty against Morgan (England 8) for bring down the Irish maul, now fair enough Sexton might have missed the kicked but he never got a chance because the ref gave the penalty to england instead, thats what home advantage get you. It would not surprise me in the slightest if the same thing happened again next year but with the plenty going to Ireland instead because we will be at home.

Look at the odds on any website (including Irish one) for the RWC in 2015. Most have England and SA level second behind NZ on 11/2 with Ireland back on 14/1. It's not based on stakes placed at this stage but on statistical analysis and expert opinion and in all honesty probably a bit of sheep mentality. Interesting!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Which 6 starters are you missing? Ferris and SOB, but then you have to drop your best player, POM, and lose the balance your backrow had. Bowe. Max 4 if you argue that Fitzgerald is first choice, but then you lose your 2nd best player, Trimble...

6 from the matchday squad, Five starters 1 on the bench

Starters = Bowe (14), Ferris (06), Ryan, (4), SOB (07), Fitzgerald (11)

Bench = Earls (23)

I'm unconvinced that Ryan is a starter, nor Earls is your bench option with your players fit. And I'm unconvinced that both Ferris and SOB will be first choice, and both Bowe and Fitzgerald

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'm unconvinced that Ryan is a starter, nor Earls is your bench option with your players fit. And I'm unconvinced that both Ferris and SOB will be first choice, and both Bowe and Fitzgerald

I know because it suits your argument but to be fair I watch Ireland and all of the provinces week in week out and I can tell you they would all have started if fit.

If you say so

I think most England fans would counter with Yarde, Wade, Tuilagi, Corbisiero then Foden on the bench at the very least though. As Guns has said at the start of his post things like injuries are fairly meaningless as both sides were missing starters and back up players

Watching all the provinces this year wouldn't help you tell me whether Ferris is going to be the player he was again, Slane. I hope to hell he is, but that was a crippling injury and he's been gone a long time. It's fingers crossed, but no guarantees...

Therein lies England's biggest asset and it's biggest danger

England have been formidable by picking the same side. After roast year when so many players were used this year has seen an almost unheard of unchanged line up.

It goes to show that building a team is as important as individual talent

Couple that with a revitalized Care and, at last, a centre combo you have, in my opinion, leveraged the performance of the side.

PLaying with it now on previous rep and introducing Croft et al is a mistake. They should be benched and have to earn their way back.

What England must do is win once down under, do well in the autumn and then win the 6 Nations, do that and i reckon a home RWC Is doable.

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:One question for irish fans.
I think they actually dont have an old a team as everyone makes out...but they do have a couple of older guys who are critical to the team. Darcy, O'Connell, possibly Ross at TH.

Now are the guys coming through now that can replace them?

Our only undroppable player is Jonathan Sexton. POC can be replaced by Tuohy as proved v Scotland, Darcy by Marshall as seen in the Scotland game too and Ross has been replaced in every game fairly well (except v France) by Marty Moore.

Sexton by contrast has become our only indispensible player IMO.

We all thought SOB was indespensable before POM showed he can be replaced and Ferris before him.

Henry replaced SOB. POM replaced Ferris.

Scratch wrote:Therein lies England's biggest asset and it's biggest danger

England have been formidable by picking the same side. After roast year when so many players were used this year has seen an almost unheard of unchanged line up.

It goes to show that building a team is as important as individual talent

Couple that with a revitalized Care and, at last, a centre combo you have, in my opinion, leveraged the performance of the side.

PLaying with it now on previous rep and introducing Croft et al is a mistake. They should be benched and have to earn their way back.

What England must do is win once down under, do well in the autumn and then win the 6 Nations, do that and i reckon a home RWC Is doable.

Absolutely. The only change I'd definitely bring would be changing at least 1 winger

Well England have won the last four meetings between the two, one being held in Ireland, so I would have to say the Red Rose for this one.

England's second place this year is similar to Ireland's second place in '07. They lost to France with a try at the death. They played Italy on the last day not knowing how much they needed to score and conceded on the counter. The eventual winners only scrambled over the line in the last minute to take the trophy.

In 2007 I fully believed Ireland were the best team despite coming second.

But then the '07 RWC happened and Ireland should have lost to Georgia along with France and Argentina. so who the hell knows.

This is Isnt going to end well...  

Duty281 wrote:Well England have won the last four meetings between the two, one being held in Ireland, so I would have to say the Red Rose for this one.

The question is who is the better team now though. Irelands team now is much different and improved from the team that lost three of those games. Would you be certain England would win in Dublin if they played there this weekend for example?

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Well England have won the last four meetings between the two, one being held in Ireland, so I would have to say the Red Rose for this one.

The question is who is the better team now though. Irelands team now is much different and improved from the team that lost three of those games. Would you be certain England would win in Dublin if they played there this weekend for example?

Nope. Hard to call. Even harder to call in a year's time! I know we CAN, especially with the breaking of the mental block last year, but equally Ireland could run riot

Beshocked, so you're not biased then....you just didn't see the 6ns..har har..brilliant. You never cease to amaze me..

Think this debate has gone down hill a bit, so allow me to add something intelligent, constructive and reasonable to the thread:

Ireland are better - FACT, end of. Don't even bother replying cause you know I'm right and you're wrong. Goodbye.

The above comment was a joke by the way :/

Is My Dad Bigger Than Yours poll?  Populated by English and Irish posters?

Hmmm................................................

Good luck with it guys. I'm off without voting.

On another thread Scratch posted that Wales are the best NH side so I think we're just bald men fighting over a comb.

Sorry chaps.

slane wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'm unconvinced that Ryan is a starter, nor Earls is your bench option with your players fit. And I'm unconvinced that both Ferris and SOB will be first choice, and both Bowe and Fitzgerald

I know because it suits your argument but to be fair I watch Ireland and all of the provinces week in week out and I can tell you they would all have started if fit.

Come off it slane, who would want to start an average player like Fitzgerald with the form of Trimble coupled with Bowe and Zebo to come back in. Earls would only make the bench if he can play centre.

O'Mahony and Henry looked good. I wouldn't drop either but seeing as O'Brien is a farming/rugby icon in Ireland, he should go to 7 with Henry dropping to the bench. You sure you want Ferris back in? Think of all the times Lydiate has outplayed him .

SecretFly wrote:Is My Dad Bigger Than Yours poll?  Populated by English and Irish posters?

Hmmm................................................

Good luck with it guys.  I'm off without voting.

Thanks for that really worthwhile contribution.

As I have said previously England are the better side...........................

















Unless it is Ireland on the day..........................





But over a period of time it would have to be England

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Is My Dad Bigger Than Yours poll?  Populated by English and Irish posters?

Hmmm................................................

Good luck with it guys.  I'm off without voting.

Thanks for that really worthwhile contribution.

You're welcome  
Enjoy the discussion and all that Guns - but that's what a question like that amounts to.  And as you see by the results so far, most English people are going to stand up for their dad.  And most Irish, vice versa.  The English provide more citizens in 606.  The poll will refect that their dad is bigger.

Rather meaningless question (other than to spark a debate, so good for a forum).

In the last game between the two England were better, reason: England won.

Over the whole of the 6 Nations Ireland were better, reason: Ireland are top of the table.

In the longer term England were better, reason: IRB Rankings

Other than that it all because a discussion without an answer. All I can say is that I'll be back to bricking it before the game in Dublin.

 

Okay, I will make a constructive comment then.

IRB rankings (since they were mentioned):

England started 6N in 4th and ended in 4th.
Ireland started 6N in 7th and rose to 5th.

Before the November Internationals England was 3rd.
Before the November Internationals Ireland was 8th.

Ireland have moved most in rankings since November, and that movement has (thankfully!) been up.

Who is better is like comparing apples and oranges. Both sides have their strengths.


Both sides should try to kick on and challenge the big 3 of the southern hemisphere now or at least Australia and South Africa.

Who does everybody here think would win a fight between Batman and Spiderman?

Artful_Dodger wrote:Who does everybody here think would win a fight between Batman and Spiderman?

Boring

A Great White and a Polar Bear

profitius wrote:Who is better is like comparing apples and oranges. Both sides have their strengths.


Both sides should try to kick on and challenge the big 3 of the southern hemisphere now or at least Australia and South Africa.

That'll be Wales' job then.

Is anyone playing Australia this summer???  Scotland?  Who?

BTW, I don't warm to this quite relatively new NH v SH thing though.  I'm afraid I'm very maverick in my opinions about "NH" rugby in that I believe we're all on our own.  What the other NH sides do against SH sides is their business.  I'm only interested in how we do against them.  I think we're all competitors in a Tier 1 pool of sides that takes in both Hemispheres.  I don't see England beating South Africa as a victory for NH any more than I see NZ representing the SH when they beat us.

Scratch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Who does everybody here think would win a fight between Batman and Spiderman?

Boring

A Great White and a Polar Bear

Boring

Mickey and Minnie

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Well England have won the last four meetings between the two, one being held in Ireland, so I would have to say the Red Rose for this one.

The question is who is the better team now though. Irelands team now is much different and improved from the team that lost three of those games. Would you be certain England would win in Dublin if they played there this weekend for example?

Not certain, you never can be with sport, but I would make England favourites by a good margin.

English but not voting for England, or Ireland. Recently it was England, at home, by 3 points. On another day, it might be Ireland.

Either team could improve more in the coming months.

I suppose it might be said that England may be a little further along the re-building/rejuvenating process than Ireland. However Ireland certainly seem to have a coach that can catch up in that respect.

There's two things I can't understand:

1) Forum posters logging in to a forum to post about how other posters shouldn't be posting what they are posting and telling everyone to stop posting responses in that post.

2) People so stupidly one-eyed and biased that they continually think that any question regarding their team is an insult AND/OR that any rugby topic can only be answered with tribal chest-thumping.

--------------------------

Anyway... on to the question. The answer doesn't seem that difficult on this one. Ireland for me are filled with a new optimism and confidence. That means alot when you talk strictly about "current form".  And in any potential match with the English in the next few months we would do considerably better than at any time over the last 4 years. I would even go so far as to make us favourites on our home turf. And we all saw how tight the match at Twickers was.

England for their part have been the much more steady and impressive team over the long-term. They're finally back to being THE NH team that you wouldn't want to be facing next - and I think they definitely deserve that more so than Ireland as yet. They're also developing some real stand out flare players again and have been building as a unit unlike previous years. Funnily enough, I felt England were looking more formidable (due to their pack) a year ago. This year they didn't seem quite so ferocious in the breakdown or around the fringes. And that was reflected in their less than resounding win over Ireland at home this year.

So there you go. My take:

A) Ironically, in a head-to-head or NH context, I think Ireland deserve the plaudits (both for their development and their efficiency of play/tactics this season).

B) In terms of playing other teams and challenging SH opposition, I still think that England still have the edge and are the more established international game winners. (Ireland - even under Joe - have still alot to prove in this department.)

So we're talking about who would beat who tomorrow if at Ireland or England or somewhere neutral? Think it's a bit different to who's better as I've seen plenty of teams hold a hoodoo over another yet consistently finish below them in a league. Ignoring all that you would fancy England to win wouldn't you? Considering one of the players of the tournament wasn't available for selection any longer   

Duty281 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Well England have won the last four meetings between the two, one being held in Ireland, so I would have to say the Red Rose for this one.

The question is who is the better team now though. Irelands team now is much different and improved from the team that lost three of those games. Would you be certain England would win in Dublin if they played there this weekend for example?

Not certain, you never can be with sport, but I would make England favourites by a good margin.

Yep, because England managed to beat us by a good margin on their own turf  

SecretFly wrote:

Scratch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Who does everybody here think would win a fight between Batman and Spiderman?

Boring

A Great White and a Polar Bear

Boring

Mickey and Minnie

Boring

GloriousEmpire and RainbowWarrior.

Interesting results and about what iI expected. From memory even when Ireland had won their first two matches even they were still 'happy with a 3rd or 4th' in this. Fly I'm sure you were one of them.

I think England is building a stronger platform to base a higher % of wins in the future than Ireland but if going by this 6N, certainly Ireland, because being the better side is about taking their opportunities when theyre presented. And Ireland did that best.

"England or Ireland - who is the better team?"

Ireland. They won the 6 Nations.

It's like trying to argue - 'Yes, France, you got to the final of the RWC but you got beaten by Tonga so Tonga's better than you'.

Looking at Ireland, you have a great front row, Paul O'Connell in the 2nd row, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Trimble, Marshall, Payne, Bowe, Kearney... Just as England's future looks bright, so too does Ireland's for 2015.

Being English i went for England of course.

But in all honesty i think it is more like neck and neck.