England's third choice fly half

With England likely to take Owen Farrell and George Ford (if both remain fit) on their tour to New Zealand, there is one fly half spot in the squad which is vacant.

The three obvious candidates for selection are Danny Cipriani, Freddie Burns and Stephen Myler.

Danny Cipriani - 26

Once hailed as the future of English rugby and the heir to Wilkinsons throne as England's number 10. However, a horrific ankle injury, loss of form, celebrity stardom and personal issues led to Cipriani delaying what many believe to be his destiny. His recent performances have been of a very high standard, he has been winning game for Sale, playing with structure, flair and intent. His goal kicking and tactical kicking have become more consistent and his defence has also improved considerably. He has seven caps for England.

Freddie Burns - 23

The arrogant young fly half is currently being cast aside by his club Gloucester, who he joined after betraying his home town club of Bath, Gloucester offered more money and Fred was never the most loyal of people. He's joining Leicester at the end of the season where he will fight it out with Owen Williams for the number 10 jersey. There is no doubting his ability, but he is very much a form player. His passing, running and kicking can all be highly effective, however his defence is considerably weak. He has three caps for England.

Stephen Myler - 29

Many people describe Myler as a solid club player, yet not quite cut out for international stardom. This season he has played at a consistently high standard for Northampton. He's currently out injured and his presence is being dearly missed by the Saints. He makes the back line click, keeps the scoreline ticking over and puts his body on the line in defence. He won his first and only cap last summer in Argentina and has been on the fringes of the England squad for a number of years.

It's likely to depend on who makes the AP Final, I'd have thought. I can't see it being Burns right now, though if he can establish himself at Leicester he could be back in the mix next season.

Then it comes down to a question of who will play best with Care. Would DC-squared enhance the attack or would having two creative players disrupt England's patterns? Is Myler reliable enough to slot in easily in place of Farrell?

Personally, I am leaning towards Cipriani. Working with Steve Diamond seems to have ironed out a lot of the kinks (I didn't see it, but Greenwood applauded him for pulling off a choke tackle on Burrell last week).

Henry Slade

I voted for Freddie Burns. But would not be surprised too see either Danni Cipriani, or may be Henry Slade commng in.

DC is your man, but I don't expect stewie to bite - he'll take Myler.

I still think that but for a variety of injuries Nick Macleod would be Sale starting 10 more often than not.
I know Burns has been out of form and favour at Gloucester, but to me he is the best option as third choice - and put a pretty good defensive effort in in the two Argentina test matches he started.

Will Lancaster definitely take 3 out and out flyhalfs? Or rely on 12trees/Goode as back ups. After all they played a few games in the 6N this year with no flyhalf cover

I don't think Lancaster will have made the decision yet and he'll end up having 4 fly halfs over there. Farrell, Ford, Burns and Cipriani. From the likely Premiership finalists Ford will start the 1st test and whoever impresses in training will get the chance for the bench. Burns is ahead purely as he'd been in and around the squad for a while and Lancaster has shown he likes to give people a chance over a period of time.

Burns head isn't right - go with form/confidence
Cipriani or Myler

If Saints are in the final I don't think he'll bother with Myler.

Agreed - that would mean Cipriani by default

It will probably end up being a big touring party. With the midweek game he will need 4 options in each position (test starters, midweek starters, bench, plus backup in case of injury) so expect the final tour party will be 44-45 with 4 of each prop, hooker, SH, FH, and 5-6 locks, 7-8 back row, 5-6 centres, 5-6 back 3

I just can't believe Cipriani's name is being banded about as a serious contender. He's had his chance for England and blown it on and off the field. Dare i say it, but getting Flood back would be a better option than any of the three listed.

Burns is in woeful form and low on confidence. Can't see why he is being considered.

Cipriani should be 3rd choice at least - plus he outplayed Ford on the weekend.

Jimpy Cipriani is not the first player to go through the rehabilitation process. Care has matured and become a far better player. Same with Hartley. Cipriani could follow in their footsteps.

A year ago I would have agreed with you but now Cipriani seems to be a more assured and reliable player.

Cipriani last played for England when he was 21 didn't he? After returning early from breaking his leg? He's had his chance?

It's a good job you're not a team selector (or maybe not, if we did that our 'too many players' problem would go away pretty quick).

Burns should be left to have a full pre-season with Leicester where he's going to need to fight for the shirt.

beshocked wrote:Burns is in woeful form and low on confidence. Can't see why he is being considered.

Cipriani should be 3rd choice at least - plus he outplayed Ford on the weekend.

Jimpy Cipriani is not the first player to go through the rehabilitation process. Care has matured and become a far better player. Same with Hartley. Cipriani could follow in their footsteps.

A year ago I would have agreed with you but now Cipriani seems to be a more assured and reliable player.

Hartley is right on the cusp for me, he still has a huge anger management problem that could yet cost England (it's certainly cost Saints).

Cipriani needs another season of league rugby before we can be sure he's really grown up enough. right now, I wouldn't consider him, but then as has been so eloquently pointed out, i;m not a team selector. I do however, know a high risk prospect when I see one.

Not so sure i'm that keen on the character assassination of Freddie Burns in the OP Robshaw4.

By all accounts he moved to Gloucester as a result of feeling held back at Bath. His move to Leicester is one of those things that modern-day players do and I don't think you can call into question his integrity as a result.

Cipriani has played pretty well but hasn't shown a great deal of 'flair' as he's played in quite a structured manner under orders from Diamond. According to BT Sport his goal kicking is at 67% in the AP. His defence has improved markedly and I wouldn't be averse to seeing what he can do in an international shirt again. Whether now is the time I don't know.

Burns' form is appalling at the moment and he didn't manage to redeem himself in either of the Saxons games he played. In fact he was outshone by Henry Slade in those matches.

Nonetheless he remains in the EPS and so to answer the original question, Burns is third choice and there's no debate about it. I'm certain he will tour with Ford and Farrell to NZ and likely be a back-up to Ford in the Crusaders game. It'll be crucial that he gets himself past Williams for the Tigers at the start of next season.

If he doesn't, Cipriani and Slade will look to profit. Myler has played outstandingly in a very strong team. My only issue is this: if we're looking for players to take this team's game forward and to the next level Myler is not it.

The other candidates all have the potential to offer England another dimension.

Hartley's anger has cost England far less than Youngs' arrows this season.

Well as Burns is in the EPS, its pretty likely that he is the current 3rd choice FH. Although I would think for the NZ game we will have 12trees covering on match day (assuming Sarries are in the final).

A bit of a Bath fan bias in the Burns write up (he moved because he was offered a senior contract at Glaws, rather than an academy one at Bath) but for England's sake I hope Leicester sort him out.

Having Farrell, Ford, Burns and Slade all playing at a high level can only be good for England. Personally I don't understand the Cipriani bandwagon, he has been no more than competent for Sale in my opinion.

Burns' form is rubbish. Just think he'll go as he's in the squads, played with Saxons etc. Once there it'll be a lot to do with form in training.

Says something for how much Farrell has moved his game on that he is so far ahead of the alternatives at the moment.

I did think that the initial write up shows a certain amount of bias. Tough choices ahead but a year ago Burns did look the real deal, even if he is rubbish at the moment.

Poorfour wrote:Hartley's anger has cost England far less than Youngs' arrows this season.

Really? Hartley is a random penalty generator, even though he's better than he was, you just know it's a matter of time before reverts to type. Youngs's throwing hasn't been good, but, he carries well and doesn't appear to exhibit the need to assault opposition players, swear at the referee or bite anyone with in range (allegedly).

lostinwales wrote:Says something for how much Farrell has moved his game on that he is so far ahead of the alternatives at the moment.

I did think that the initial write up shows a certain amount of bias. Tough choices ahead but a year ago Burns did look the real deal, even if he is rubbish at the moment.

That's cos the original post was all but a WUM.

lostinwales it's not surprising Farrell is so far ahead.He's got more experience than his rivals which he has been building up. All these high profile games help him develop.

Burns the real deal? After thumping a 2nd string Argentina?

I agree that the criticism of Burns moving is uncalled for but he's in laughably poor form. What's the point of bringing a 10 to the home of the best side in the world when he's so low on confidence?

Agree with you Hammerofrthunor - let Burns have a full pre-season with Leicester.

chjw131 I think it's good that Cipriani isn't showing flair - it's showing a different side to him.

I thought he controlled the game very well vs Bath, more so than Ford who seemed to wilt under the pressure.

Would think that Lancaster and his coaches know their players, personally wouldn't think dropping Burns completely would do his confidence much good. After identifying him as having potential I don't think they'll want to cast him aside.

Burns - has a lot of potential and in the Argentina tests did enough to show that he might not be quite the defensive liability he is made out to be (but all of the choices are going to be weaker defensively than Farrell).

The big big question is how that potential is managed going forward, given that he is just plain rubbish at the moment

lostinwales wrote:Burns - has a lot of potential and in the Argentina tests did enough to show that he might not be quite the defensive liability he is made out to be (but all of the choices are going to be weaker defensively than Farrell).

The big big question is how that potential is managed going forward, given that he is just plain rubbish at the moment

Yep good point, his defence in Argentina was markedly improved. I think he had a lot of input from Gustard and his one on one tackling and ruck work was transformed.

I don't think he will, or should be, dropped and it will do him no good in the long-run. He's not become a bad player overnight and when he was in form he had a lovely kicking game from hand, won the golden boot last season and made some nice solo breaks. I don't honestly know if Tigers is the right club for him but he will get back to form.

Chjw131 wrote:...He's not become a bad player overnight...

To be honest, it felt like that's exactly what happened. He can probably become a good player again but it would be nice to see it happen at club level first, rather than just hoping he'll rise to the occasion against the best team in the world.

chjw131 Burns is not on form though. Is NZ really the place for Burns to find some form?

Don't you think it would be more logical to drop Burns from the England squad - let him have a pre-season with Leicester to get himself back into shape. Build some confidence.

Though saying that there's no guarantee that Burns will be able to get into the Leicester starting line up with Owen Williams emerging as a rival.

There is a reasonably good chance that Burns will at least start behind Williams next season (assuming both are fit) as that's how Cockerill tends to do it. It takes time for any player to settle after a move so he could remain 2nd choice all season.

Give him the pre-season to show what he can do, prepare with the team best, take part in the warm up games, and maybe he'll kick on quicker. It's best for him, Leicester and England in the long run IMO.

Especially if Williams does go on tour to South Africa and misses pre-season himself.

Hammerofthunor agreed. Plus if he goes to NZ he's likely to be 3rd choice anyway so get little gametime.

He needs to get himself out of his slump - a potential moral sapping trip to NZ is not the solution!

True if Williams misses pre-season and Burns doesn't, Burns will put himself in a better position to contend for the 10 shirt.

Jimpy wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Hartley's anger has cost England far less than Youngs' arrows this season.

Really? Hartley is a random penalty generator, even though he's better than he was, you just know it's a matter of time before reverts to type. Youngs's throwing hasn't been good, but, he carries well and doesn't appear to exhibit the need to assault opposition players, swear at the referee or bite anyone with in range (allegedly).

Hartley's most visible recent misdemeanour in an England shirt was the string of three penalties against Wales. One of them was for catching a ball in an offside position. Another one was for being jumped into by Toby Faletau; the alternative would have been to wave him through and watch him jog to the tryline. Let's leave out the disputed bite, because there's no hard evidence that it happened .

Youngs's throwing, on the other hand, cost England an attacking position in the opponents' 22 against both NZ and France, in each case directly contributing to the decisive try by the opposition.

Hartley does still have a temper, but it seems to manifest more at club level than for England (possibly because he knows he'd be out on his ear if it happens again under Lancaster). But the recent evidence is that it's not costing England victories.

Poorfour well said.  

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor agreed. Plus if he goes to NZ he's likely to be 3rd choice anyway so get little gametime.

He needs to get himself out of his slump - a potential moral sapping trip to NZ is not the solution!

True if Williams misses pre-season and Burns doesn't, Burns will put himself in a better position to contend for the 10 shirt.

I take the point about letting him get a full pre-season with Tigers and removing him from the team on merit. That all makes perfect sense as a short-term decision.

What is missing here though is the long-term view. The lad had a storming 2012/13 season and toured very well in Argentina. He was pushing Farrell for the starting berth before Geroge Ford came on the scene. He's still only 23?

What he needs right now is the support of the England coaches and system, to keep up to speed with developments in England tactics and the encouragement of the team as a whole. That will be better for the player in the long-term. Yes he's likely to get little game time but that's not the driving factor behind taking him.

So let's say he goes on tour. Doesn't get a good pre-season with Tigers, Williams as the current holder is the starter. Burns has to try and take it off him while settling in, without a pre-season. He gets the odd game, but takes a long time to settle. If he settles at all. All this while trying to regain form at all, never mind gaining form at a new club.

Best thing for his long term development, IMO, is to settle in his new team and get his head together. If anything, taking him on the tour is short term. Not only that but if he can't cope with not going on a tour then he really isn't up for it IMO.

HammerofThunor wrote:So let's say he goes on tour. Doesn't get a good pre-season with Tigers, Williams as the current holder is the starter. Burns has to try and take it off him while settling in, without a pre-season. He gets the odd game, but takes a long time to settle. If he settles at all. All this while trying to regain form at all, never mind gaining form at a new club.

Best thing for his long term development, IMO, is to settle in his new team and get his head together. If anything, taking him on the tour is short term. Not only that but if he can't cope with not going on a tour then he really isn't up for it IMO.

The problem with that assessment is that it takes his current form and ability as read. He's currently suffering from a lack of game time for two reasons: one, his form has been poor and two, because he's leaving. It's little coincidence that most players who leave clubs, particularly under difficult circumstances suffer for game-time.

It is not a truism to say he can't or couldn't cope with a tour to NZ. As third choice FH I don't see that being an issue. Yes he needs to play, but it's distinctly possible that Williams will tour with Wales as well so it's not as if one gets an advantage over the other at Tigers. As the man in possession Williams was always going to be ahead of Burns, but Burns is a star signing and will get game time without question.

The support of England players and coaches is going to be important long-term. To know he hasn't been kicked out and left in the cold. I think that will benefit him greater in the long-term. But that is just my opinion on it.

Poorfour wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Hartley's anger has cost England far less than Youngs' arrows this season.

Really? Hartley is a random penalty generator, even though he's better than he was, you just know it's a matter of time before reverts to type. Youngs's throwing hasn't been good, but, he carries well and doesn't appear to exhibit the need to assault opposition players, swear at the referee or bite anyone with in range (allegedly).

Hartley's most visible recent misdemeanour in an England shirt was the string of three penalties against Wales. One of them was for catching a ball in an offside position. Another one was for being jumped into by Toby Faletau; the alternative would have been to wave him through and watch him jog to the tryline. Let's leave out the disputed bite, because there's no hard evidence that it happened .

Youngs's throwing, on the other hand, cost England an attacking position in the opponents' 22 against both NZ and France, in each case directly contributing to the decisive try by the opposition.

Hartley does still have a temper, but it seems to manifest more at club level than for England (possibly because he knows he'd be out on his ear if it happens again under Lancaster). But the recent evidence is that it's not costing England victories.

I never said it had.... RTFQ.

Poorfour wrote:Youngs's throwing, on the other hand, cost England an attacking position in the opponents' 22 against both NZ and France, in each case directly contributing to the decisive try by the opposition.

Lawes has admitted that for the French game he changed the call but forgot to tell Youngs.

Hartley is deservedly first choice, and if Webber coudl ever get fit I would have loved to see him have a go - but the continual disparagement of Youngs throwing (who apparently was the most accurate hooker in the HEC) is completely over the top.

LondonTiger wrote: Hartley is deservedly first choice, and if Webber coudl ever get fit I would have loved to see him have a go - but the continual disparagement of Youngs throwing (who apparently was the most accurate hooker in the HEC) is completely over the top.

Best of 24 ? dont believe it !

Chjw131 wrote:
The support of England players and coaches is going to be important long-term. To know he hasn't been kicked out and left in the cold. I think that will benefit him greater in the long-term. But that is just my opinion on it.

I don't think missing out on the NZ tour will do Burns any harm. Robshaw was left out of the last summer tour, Care was dropped for various reasons, B Youngs has been out of the side for a while and all these players are now playing well and looking good.

As well as this Lancaster has shown he's happy to keep up the dialogue with any players who aren't in the EPS, just like with Cipriani if Burns is out he'll get his briefing on why that is and what he needs to do to change it, it's then up to him to accomplish that.

A full pre season at Tigers is a must for Burns IMO. If he doesn't settle this season and get regular game time then we're into the WC season with him fighting to get his club position let alone an England place.

Player of the month won't do Cipriani any harm.

Well, Cipriani has been named AP player of the month and Austin Healey is endorsing his England credentials:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26961666

Are Ford's kicking percentages high enough for an International 10 ? I've seen him play live and on the TV a fair few times and they seemed pretty poor

It's the 1 area which needs a big improvement munkian. Despite his size he normally makes his tackles, excellent kicking from hand but from the tee...

Yea Cips should tour, he's at the age where he should be a little more refined now then he was and could be the perfect mix of daring and controlled play that we need to back up Farrell.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's the 1 area which needs a big improvement munkian. Despite his size he normally makes his tackles, excellent kicking from hand but from the tee...

There's no one else in the England 15 that can cover him either I'm guessing - ala Halfpence.

Twelvetrees is decent but not in the top tier. Pipe dream of Daly being involved at some point. The way that Care has been hitting his drop goals tho...

I am happy enough for Cipriani to tour as 3rd choice. It would be last chance saloon though.

Not sure Lancaster would take him - unless he is convinced he has changed his personality. It was Lancaster after all who, when in charge of the Saxons in Italy when Cipriani was cheering for Wales to beat England, tore Cipriani a new bumhole and vowed never to select a player like that.

Well my thoughts are....

The lad was a tool in his younger years. And its probably cost him a lot in terms of rugby success as an individual and team member.

However, im able to accept that players do mature and develop. It would appear that he is indeed doing that. And if he is showing the ability to create plays, control a game and not being the prat we know he can be off it...then he should be given another chance.

Dont forget the current regime are well aware of him and how he is playing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lancaster has already been in touch and told him he's being watched not just for his rugby but for his off field maturity aswell...and if he continues to impress in both he may be in with a chance.

Wasnt there some talk of Lancaster keeping half an eye on Cips prior to the 6N? Maybe he has finally had some sense knocked into him, even if it took a bus to do it....