England Prop Factor....who's the present and who's the future England Front Row?

work in progress........but undoubtedly this is where it's at as far as England's future chances are concerned.

TH- current: Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas
Future- Collier, Sinckler (has looked really good the past few weeks), the Sarries academy Prop whose name I can't remember, other Wilson, Cooper-Wooley

LH- current: Corbs, Marler, Mako, Mullan (mostly pretty young!)
Future- Waller, Marfo (eventually), then I don't know

particularly impressed with how Sinckler adapted to the Stade prop boring in on him last night. He learns very fast

Henry Thomas had a very poor game on thursday, so much so that Diamond took him off early. I thought it was a very telling moment and one Thomas must learn from.

Sinckler appears to be a really exciting find and I hope Lancaster appreciates our urgent need and takes him to NZ in June.

So who are the 6 props to go to NZ?

Marler
Vunipola
?

Wilson
Thomas? Barrington? Cooper-Woolley?
Sinckler

I think the only prop we currently use who is anything like the 'standard' age is David Wilson. All the others are young - Dan cole is only 26- and should therefore be around a long time

Watch out for Fraser Balmain at tighthead for Leicester next year. Solid scrummager and a monster carrier.

The issue is both of our perceived premier props are out with LONG TERM INJURIES.

Marler and Wilson are now the men in possession but it is doubtful they will start all three tests down under. The point is 'the times are a changing' and therefore the question is, who will come out on top going forward?

kingelderfield wrote:The issue is both of our perceived premier props are out with LONG TERM INJURIES.

Marler and Wilson are now the men in possession but it is doubtful they will start all three tests down under. The point is 'the times are a changing' and therefore the question is, who will come out on top going forward?

What? On current form neither Quns nor Bath will make the AP Final so there's no reason why they wouldn't start the first test. So you seem to be suggesting that Lancaster will change his first choice props mid-series - which he hasn't done before except when forced by injury and didn't do even when Wilson was showing better form than Cole in the autumn.

I'd also disagree that Corbisiero and Cole are necessarily the premier English props right now. Cole was visibly struggling under the new engagement and Wilson has looked far more solid since he came in. Corbisiero's probably still a better all round player than Marler (though the gap has closed a lot in the last 12 months), but his fitness is a real concern. When did he last play 7 games in a row (which is what would be needed for RWC)? Marler can be relied upon to play a string of games, and he is now clearly a safer bet in the scrum than Mako. This close to the RWC, I would expect Marler and Wilson to be the men in possession when the tournament starts, barring injury, major loss of form.

The question right now iswho the backups are. Mako lookspretty safe at loosehead unless Corbs puts in a good string of games in the run-up to the AIs. Cole will probably move ahead of Thomas once he's fit, and could push Wilson if he adapts his technique to the engagement better,

Well Cole is a smart guy and we dont know how long that injury of his has been effecting his game, so I'd bet on him getting back to being no.1 pretty quickly if his recovery goes OK. (unfortunately that is still a big IF)

lostinwales wrote:Well Cole is a smart guy and we dont know how long that injury of his has been affecting his game, so I'd bet on him getting back to being no.1 pretty quickly if his recovery goes OK. (unfortunately that is still a big IF)

I hope he recovers (the ABs apparently think he will be playng this summer...) and some of his malaise is almost certainly down to the early stage of the injury, but I fear that Cole may struggle even at full fitness. He's always been very tall for a prop - 6'2" IIRC - and I think that under the new enagement tall tightheads in particular seem to struggle. It's noticeable that France's props were all quite short, and that thisseason has thrown up some small props who are doing much better than the monsters who did so well last year. The Quins scrum with Sinckler went really well against Sarries' much bigger front row, for instance.

I honestly don't see Marler & Wilson being able to start all 3 games, fatigue (especially at the end of a very long season) will only increase the chances of injury (see Cole who was played into the ground post Lions).

This is the time to try real alternatives (yes MV is good enough) but otherwise everyone is relatively untested.

Stewie is a poor selector, extremely conservative, and generally behind the curve.

I seem to be in the minority that worries how the current England set-piece scrum has become one of the weakest in the 6N. England are an improving side, but we're not so good that we can afford to give away what is traditionally one of our strong points. This will come back to bite us in the RWC unless we improve (or until Corbs and Cole regain fitness and form).

I think the talk of Cole's malaise is unfair. He had a quiet Lions tour, but he has been rock solid for Leicester and England this season and still a strong presence around the park. Maybe he isn't quite as destructive has he was a couple of seasons ago, but he is still a top class prop.

kingelderfield wrote:Stewie is a poor selector, extremely conservative, and generally behind the curve.

You keep saying that. Who do you think he should be picking instead?

Poorfour wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Stewie is a poor selector, extremely conservative, and generally behind the curve.

You keep saying that. Who do you think he should be picking instead?

This is really our last chance to try out any young tyro who may push themselves into WC contention. Therefore I think we should definitely take 6 props (Marler, Vunipola & Wilson +3) and the game against the Crusaders should be used to try out our untested debutants, e.g. Waller & Sinckler.

The coaches have to allow themselves the opportunity to compare players close up, and they have to see if players fit into the England/international set up/game.

I am of the opinion, hence the thread that our props have to step up as currently, as the 6 nations showed, we are not good enough to take on and beat the best and this certainly will not happen if we cannot scrummage.

Marler
Vunipola
Waller or Barrington or ?

Wilson
Sinckler
Cooper-Woolley or ?

I happily admit that I am not a front row specialist but it does appear obvious to me that we have quickly moved from a relative position of strength to one of relative weakness and that without strength at Prop we will go nowhere.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I seem to be in the minority that worries how the current England set-piece scrum has become one of the weakest in the 6N. England are an improving side, but we're not so good that we can afford to give away what is traditionally one of our strong points. This will come back to bite us in the RWC unless we improve (or until Corbs and Cole regain fitness and form).

Well said that man.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I seem to be in the minority that worries how the current England set-piece scrum has become one of the weakest in the 6N. England are an improving side, but we're not so good that we can afford to give away what is traditionally one of our strong points. This will come back to bite us in the RWC unless we improve (or until Corbs and Cole regain fitness and form).

True, but what can actually be done in the meantime? There aren't that many experienced options to come in and the ones that do exist are already in the set up. I've said it before, there is a lost generation of English props (Players in general) who should be around 28-32 and very internationally experienced. Instead we've had to over rely upon Cole and latterly Wilson who eventually break.

Looking at at Prop forwards via the Premiership finals and how many English qualified props started:

2013 - One (Cole)
2012 - Two (Marler and Cole)
2011 - One (Stevens)
2010 - Zero
2009 - Two (White and Skuse)
2008 - Four (Payne, Vickery, Stankovich, White)
2007 - Two (Wood and White)
2006 - Three (Turner, Rowntree and White)


This is a microcosm of the problems we have had. As a country we have failed to really develop the young props and have often used overseas props to fill the gaps. Injuries to the better players have not helped (Woodman, Sheridan, vickery and now Corbs and Cole) while younger players we had real hopes for like Wood and Golding for various reasons never kicked on.


Dan Cole's first cap came off the bench in 2010 when he replaced Davey Wilson, with tim Payne on the loosehead. At the time Payne was the best we had available - so not a new problem.

Poorfour wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:The issue is both of our perceived premier props are out with LONG TERM INJURIES.

Marler and Wilson are now the men in possession but it is doubtful they will start all three tests down under. The point is 'the times are a changing' and therefore the question is, who will come out on top going forward?

What? On current form neither Quns nor Bath will make the AP Final so there's no reason why they wouldn't start the first test. So you seem to be suggesting that Lancaster will change his first choice props mid-series - which he hasn't done before except when forced by injury and didn't do even when Wilson was showing better form than Cole in the autumn.

I'd also disagree that Corbisiero and Cole are necessarily the premier English props right now. Cole was visibly struggling under the new engagement and Wilson has looked far more solid since he came in. Corbisiero's probably still a better all round player than Marler (though the gap has closed a lot in the last 12 months), but his fitness is a real concern. When did he last play 7 games in a row (which is what would be needed for RWC)? Marler can be relied upon to play a string of games, and he is now clearly a safer bet in the scrum than Mako. This close to the RWC, I would expect Marler and Wilson to be the men in possession when the tournament starts, barring injury, major loss of form.

The question right now iswho the backups are. Mako lookspretty safe at loosehead unless Corbs puts in a good string of games in the run-up to the AIs. Cole will probably move ahead of Thomas once he's fit, and could push Wilson if he adapts his technique to the engagement better,

Really hard to know where we will end up on form. Nev is back and that is huge

kingelderfield is only truly happy when England are losing I believe. Certainly every single post appears designed to be a dig at Lancaster and his coaches.

Barney, I see it a little differently. England's scrum wasn't a thing of beauty, but it did the job. England for the most part got the ball back fast enough to do something with it, and they didn't concede an excessive number of penalties.

I think it may be that Lancaster and Rowntree have simply decided that the scrum needs to function but have prioritised other things over raw scrummaging power. It is no longer the penalty machine it was last year - for anyone - and England's forwards seem to have been picked with mobility, tackling and breakdown skills in mind rather than pure grunt. Lawes and Launchbury, Wood and Robshaw are not the largest guys in their positions. Only Wilson and possibly Hartley really fit the mould of traditional scrummaging props.

The cost is that the scrum aims for parity rather than dominance, but the payoff is the control at the breakdown that England have had in most matches this season. Seems a fair tradeoff to me.

In terms of trying out tyros, I partly agree with kingelderfield. England have two good options in each postiion, three at LH if Corbisiero gets fit. Thomas looked OK in the 6N, seems to have struggled since. Should they have tried more young props? Maybe. But I think Marler, Thomas and Vunipola have all been introduced in Lancaster's tenure. There's a limit to how many new props you can bring through, because more than any other position there's a learning curve - look how much Marler has improved over the course of 20 caps.

They will take 6 props to NZ, because the midweek game means they can't get by with any less. Assuming Cole and Corbs won't be fully fit, two of those props will be newbies. On current form that could be Waller and possibly Sinckler - which would give England 5 senior props under 25, albeit with 2 of them light on experience.

I am bemused that the selection of front row is thrown up as evidence of Lancaster's conservatism. After all he capped Mako and Tom Youngs before they had started 10 AP matches - and both ended up with 3 Lions caps.

Meanwhile we have seen some very young props appearing for the Saxons. I would argue that the England management are doing the best they can to develop talent in the front row.

LT, I don't rate Lancaster because he's untested apart from a brief spell with Leeds and the Saxons. His appointment was and is nothing other than an appalling cobbled together fudge where ultimately the RFU did what all unaccountable organisations do which is recruit from within. He's a Blazer and a Buffer neither of which do I think are appropriate credentials required to manage England.

As to his selections well their either instigated by loss of form or injury and rarely if ever where a better player takes the shirt because their obviously better than the incumbent. How long did we have to wait for Ashton to be dropped? Time that Wade will never now get back!

In this instance with regards our front row I am simply thinking ahead of the curve as Stewie should be doing to take full advantage of the opportunity provided to us. If Stewie fails to grasp this and provide the best candidates their chance then don't come running to me when Marler or Wilson get injured as is prone to happen at the end of a ridiculously long season.

As to your stupid comment about only happy when we're losing.......da the idea is to win the WC and not to provide RFU bankers fat salaries and a money making opportunity.

Our pack is now one of the best around. Yeah we can argue the scrum isn't our strong point but you also have to factor in the rest of the forwards play. When you look at the players briought in by lancaster he's really not that conservative either. You've been down on lancaster from the start but I don't think Mallett who was the only other real contender would be doing better.

Lancaster a buffer and a blazer? Have you ever heard him speak? He's quite the opposite. Yes, he's the internal appointment, and yes he'd not had much experience. But as a caretaker he came within a breakaway try (and some very dubious Walsh decision-making) of winning the 6N, and he didn't do it the easy way by hanging on to players who would not be around for 2015. He brought in a lot of new or inexperienced players in that tournament -and most of them have proven their worth.

He's not been a perfect selector (what coach is?), but generally I think he's built a good team and has for the most part stuck with players when they needed sticking with. If he has been slow to drop players, that may be in part because he is trying - against the clock - to develop a critical mass of international experience; constantly chopping and changing isn't going to achieve that. Maybe he should have dropped
Ashton sooner, but I am not convinced at all that Wade's defence is ready for international rugby.

I think he will have to blood some new props in NZ for the reasons I've put above. But I wouldn't advocate changing the starters just to give some tyros experience. Wilson has already had 2 months out injured, so a handful more games are probably helpful rather than a problem. Marler is young and hasn't shown any signs of injury or fatigue yet. It's not that big a risk.

All you ever do is criticise, or ask loaded questions. You started a thread so you could castigate Lancaster but have no ideas of your own as to who should play.

Marler, Mako and Wilson (along with corbs and Cole) are our best props, but largely inexperienced at international level. We can either allow them to gain that experience or we can give caps out like confetti to players largely untested at club level.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Our pack is now one of the best around. Yeah we can argue the scrum isn't our strong point but you also have to factor in the rest of the forwards play. When you look at the players briought in by lancaster he's really not that conservative either. You've been down on lancaster from the start but I don't think Mallett who was the only other real contender would be doing better.

Mallett wasn't the only other real contender, he was the only other candidate who was prepared to work with the charlatans that call themselves the rfu. Everyone else saw them for the Zhits they are.

LondonTiger wrote:All you ever do is criticise, or ask loaded questions. You started a thread so you could castigate Lancaster but have no ideas of your own as to who should play.

Marler, Mako and Wilson (along with corbs and Cole) are our best props, but largely inexperienced at international level. We can either allow them to gain that experience or we can give caps out like confetti to players largely untested at club level.

Come the 3rd test it will be interesting to review this position. Wilson and Marler have nothing to prove.

Do like the look of Sinckler. Did well vs Mako at Wembley.

My choices:

Wilson
Sinckler
Thomas

Marler
Mako
Waller

Assuming Cole and Corbisiero are not fit.

That could leave you short for the first test,take mullan he is next cab off the rank and in the right age bracket.

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Our pack is now one of the best around. Yeah we can argue the scrum isn't our strong point but you also have to factor in the rest of the forwards play. When you look at the players briought in by lancaster he's really not that conservative either. You've been down on lancaster from the start but I don't think Mallett who was the only other real contender would be doing better.

Mallett wasn't the only other real contender, he was the only other candidate who was prepared to work with the charlatans that call themselves the rfu. Everyone else saw them for the Zhits they are.

So in other words he was the only other contender!

beshocked wrote:Do like the look of Sinckler. Did well vs Mako at Wembley.

My choices:

Wilson
Sinckler
Thomas

Marler
Mako
Waller

Assuming Cole and Corbisiero are not fit.

Agree with that pecking order Beshocked. Would have had Brookes in there prior to ref shoving but given the suspension for that and Deano's novel selections in the Falcons front row he may not get the game time to prove his form in time.

Thomas, Sinckler and Brookes I'd consider a very similar standard each with strengths and weaknesses.

Of the youngsters pressing through Scott Wilson has still impressed me most though.

That back-up tight head to Davey Wilson is the key selection for the tour though in my opinion. We really need to be able to trust them to do more than sit on the bench otherwise we could risk playing big Davey into the ground leading into RWC year.

Brookes should go to NZ. He's very good, and i think his lack of selection is probably more down to injuries than simply not being selected. You never know with the total silence coming out of KP.

Wilson is another awesome propsect but still a work to do...and whilst a saxon i dont think he's ready for a tour to NZ just yet. He will be much better than Brookes though. And he's a beast of a scrummager!

Im concerned with Corbs. Im becoming more convinced he's not going to make it back.

Any Saints fans confirm or not if he's recovering?

Waller for Saints however is getting seriously good reviews

To NZ i would take:

TH
D.Wilson
Thomas
Brookes

LH
Marler
Vunipola
Waller?

As an outsider I have say give Waller game time - I think you have a winner there

Waller has looked very able when he's been playing for Saints. I don't know how much further he will progress though and does he have that edge in one area?

I think it's more likely Mullan will be the third LH if Corbs doesn't make it on tour. He's actually high quality and has suffered from being in a couple of poor teams. His work-rate is very high.

At TH for me it has to be D.Wilson, Thomas and Brookes at the moment. But Sinckler could be a bolter.

I might be wrong but i dont think the coaches are that worried about having totally destructive props.

They seem to be more interested in how good they are around the field, at the breakdown, tackling etc than being massively destructive in the scrum (thats a bonus).

The likes of Marler ,Cole, Vunipola, Corbs, Thomas for me epitomise that. They are all very good in the loose, at the breakdown, carrying, tackling, etc...extra flankers really...just a bonus that Corbs and Cole can scrummage very well.

Marler is improving all the time in his scrummaging as is Thomas...but im not sure they'll ever be destructive....and im not sure that remotely concerns the coaches.

I have seen Marler destroy opponents in the scrum. Argentina for one, he's got man of the match awards purely on scrummaging at AP level too

ChequeredJersey wrote:I have seen Marler destroy opponents in the scrum. Argentina for one, he's got man of the match awards purely on scrummaging at AP level too

He is good and getting better but I wouldn't call him destructive. Not in the Sheridan/Domingo sense. I remember him mullering the Racing front row but that was with Tonga'uiha at TH!

Then i take it back CJ and stand corrected   

Chjw131 wrote:Waller has looked very able when he's been playing for Saints. I don't know how much further he will progress though and does he have that edge in one area?

I think it's more likely Mullan will be the third LH if Corbs doesn't make it on tour. He's actually high quality and has suffered from being in a couple of poor teams. His work-rate is very high.

I would say Alex Waller is an all rounder but that probably fits with SL's vision for props anyway. He's not really been bettered in the scrum all season, like most modern props has a very good work-rate, good engine for a prop (can last the whole 80 at a decent standard) and doesn't give away many pens in the loose although he often challenges for the ball. One strength is his carrying at close quarters, he often breaks the fringe defense due to a more than decent burst of acceleration for a fatty. Must be doing something right if Saints haven't missed Tiny or Corbs this season.

Personally think he offers a bit more than Mullen but would have no problem with either one of them going to NZ as the 3rd choice LH this summer.

Chjw131 wrote:Waller has looked very able when he's been playing for Saints. I don't know how much further he will progress though and does he have that edge in one area?

I think it's more likely Mullan will be the third LH if Corbs doesn't make it on tour. He's actually high quality and has suffered from being in a couple of poor teams. His work-rate is very high.

At TH for me it has to be D.Wilson, Thomas and Brookes at the moment. But Sinckler could be a bolter.

Have to say Sinckler has caught the eye both times I've seen him. He's VERY green so will make plenty of mistakes but it would be great news if he's a real find?

Friday night is looking very interesting especially if Marler Sinckler and Thomas all get starts.

B91212 wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Waller has looked very able when he's been playing for Saints. I don't know how much further he will progress though and does he have that edge in one area?

I think it's more likely Mullan will be the third LH if Corbs doesn't make it on tour. He's actually high quality and has suffered from being in a couple of poor teams. His work-rate is very high.

I would say Alex Waller is an all rounder but that probably fits with SL's vision for props anyway. He's not really been bettered in the scrum all season, like most modern props has a very good work-rate, good engine for a prop (can last the whole 80 at a decent standard) and doesn't give away many pens in the loose although he often challenges for the ball. One strength is his carrying at close quarters, he often breaks the fringe defense due to a more than decent burst of acceleration for a fatty. Must be doing something right if Saints haven't missed Tiny or Corbs this season.

Personally think he offers a bit more than Mullen but would have no problem with either one of them going to NZ as the 3rd choice LH this summer.

Agreed Waller has impressed me far more than Mullen

I'd have no issue at all with either Mullan or Waller going as third choice LH if Corbs is unavailable. Both have serious merits.

I would say that it's probably slightly easier to stand out in a team that's 2nd in the AP and amongst probably the strongest pack in the league. That's not to undermine his performances but it's certainly easier to catch the eye.

Rowntree has liked Mullan for a long time and I think it'd be a tight call between the two as to who tours. Interestingly he's remarked today that they're looking all the way down to the U20s for touring candidates.

I think Mullan is a decent player. He's mobile like the current regime seem to like as opposed to monster scrummagers. Who can forget that tackle on Hook!

I wouldnt take Corbs to NZ...whats the point risking him? With Vunipola likely to be tied up with the finals...that means Marler, Mullan will travel. Waller likely to be tied up also if Saints make the final....who else is there at LH?

If Corbs is fit he has to travel in my opinion. It's not as if he needs the rest! If his knee is adjudged fully healed then I see no reason not to take him.

I just dont see the point in taking him CHj.

Hes been out for most of the season. Marler and Vunipola are coming on leaps and bounds and will benefit massively from a tour to NZ. Waller or Mullan will gain experience.

Corbs is still number 1 (though i think Marler is definately closing the gap quite quickly now) but i would just leave him alone with the Saints to give him a crackin pre season and have him firing for next season.

If Corboseiro doesn't put in a solid Sept + Oct, followed by the Autumn Internationals, then I think you need to go to the WC without him.

I would not take him on tour regardless - need to find out who else is up for the job.

geoff998rugby wrote:If Corboseiro doesn't put in a solid Sept + Oct, followed by the Autumn Internationals, then I think you need to go to the WC without him.

I would not take him on tour regardless - need to find out who else is up for the job.

Yeah thats my thoughts aswell Geoff.

I take the point about a pre-season but they're not an elixir, particularly for a player who's had little to no game time.

It is still a fact that Corbs is one of very few currently world class players in this England squad. He needs game time if he's fit. He needs to get back up to speed with the team and secure his spot going into a WC year. I see no good reason for not playing the lad if he's past fit.

CHJ

Im not doubting his ability. I think Corbs is World Class...a complete prop. My issues are...that taking a player with known injury issues and barely any games this season on a tour of NZ is only risking potential injury again.

Give him the full summer with Saints to confirm the injuries are fixed, and then allow Saints to bring him in slowly in tandem with Waller. If he comes through well then he may get called up by England again.

This way our other two main LH's Marler and Vunipola get a continued education in top international rugby in the the homeland of the best team. And Corbs "understudy" Waller may well get some exposure aswell.

England win Both ways if you ask me.