The New European Cup Thread Part 2- Competition Format

[Scrumpy]

First topic message reminder :

I know there is already a thread running but it lacks the details and anyway it has nearly run its course (a bit like the HC!   )

European Rugby Champions Cup
 
The new structure of European rugby is here at last. Here is the breakdown of exactly what is replacing the Heineken Cup.
 
 
The European Rugby Champions Cup
 
Twenty clubs qualifying through the finishing positions in their leagues from the preceding season:
 
Top six from Top 14
Top six from Aviva Premiership
Top seven from PRO 12, with at least one club from each country participating in the league.
 
For the 2014-15 campaign, the 20th place will be taken by the winner of a play-off between the seventh highest finishing club in the Top 14 and in the Premiership. The play-off will be played in May 2014, either as one match (in which case, there will be a draw for home advantage) or as home/away.
 
For subsequent seasons: The seventh highest finishing club from Top 14, the seventh highest finishing club from the Premiership and the eighth and ninth highest finishing clubs from PRO 12 will play-off.
 
From 2015 season, if the previous season's European Rugby Challenge Cup winner has not already qualified through its finishing position in its league, it will participate in the play-off by taking a place given to its league.
 
 
 
European Rugby Challenge Cup
 
It will consist of 20 clubs comprising 18 clubs from Top 14, Premiership Rugby and PRO 12. The other two spots will go to two clubs from the qualifying competition organised with FIRA-AER (Fédération Internationale de Rugby Amateur - Association Européenne de Rugby).
 
 
The format of both competitions
 
The competitions will take place over nine weekends. The Pool phase will be through five Pools of four teams which will play each other home and away. The five Pool winners and the 3 best runners-up will qualify for the quarter-finals. The last eight will be played at the home venues of the four best Pool winners.
 
The Pool phase will be played in three blocks of two weekends and will be completed by the end of January. The final will take place latest the first weekend of May.
 
 
The governing body
 
The competition will be run by a board of directors and an executive committee in charge of commercial matters all under the auspices of European Professional Club Rugby, the body replacing European Rugby Cup Ltd. The EPCR Board shall have an independent Chairman and will be chaired in Switzerland.
 
There will be an equal distribution of funds with the nine constituent parties agreeing to the above format. They are: Federation Francaise de Rugby (FFR), Federazione Italiana Rugby (FIR), Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), Ligue Nationale De Rugby (LNR), Premiership Rugby Ltd (PRL), Regional Rugby Wales Ltd (RRW), Rugby Football Union
 
 
 
IRB chairman Bernard Lapasset added: "European rugby fans and the top players can now look forward to a strong accord and competition structure that promotes and celebrates the best of the European game."
 
Can't wait, but I hope they get a sponsor as the names are too similar imo. 

[Portnoy's Complaint]

"I like the new proposed seeding system", do you Rec?

I've yet to see one from any official source.

I notice btw (and this is as an aside to Fly who correctly accused me about banging on about it), that The Ladyboys have been toppled from their perch atop of the EuroTable) by the Insidious Saracens.

[geoff998rugby]

I good seeding system is not bloody rocket science. Portnoy is always banging on about that website one, which would be fine. Also the international points exchange one could be adopted. The European Champions should be top seeds logically.

I'd say the Franglo's want  it league based so no Rabo team will ever "do an Edinburgh". But really that is the only occasion I can think of that it ever happened. A rabo side getting to the semi's would have been in the top 6 of the league every other time.

The new system will not prevent 'an Edinburgh' because it will not prevent a 'potentially' weak group.

Done a quick rule of thumb based on existing places and got a group of Montpelier, Bath, Glasgow, Treviso which would fit the proposed rules

Glasgow are top 4 in the Pro12 aren't they? Bath are top 4 for AP. Montpellier are top of the T14. That's a 'weak' pool?

Compared to what the other groups would be - YES

None of those teams have done anything in Europe in the current century.
Have any of them even got out of the group stages in that period ?

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I like the new proposed seeding system as it doesnt reinforce the status quo and if you are good enough,  seedings are irrelevant. There should be some big games in the pools, the whole thing should be a knockout competition and it is only the grasping for additional money by all sides that keeps this five pool nonsense.

Having watched for a while now on recent proceedings it strikes me that for all the supposed indignation I note that everyone is financially no worse off despite the new reallocation to equal funding,  as was stated 18 months ago. If or when there is additional funds it appears that in the R12 the welsh and irish get a greater share on the basis they provide more teams to the competition - I like the irony.

I do share the concern about creating powerful super clubs but for R12 fans to complain when that is exactly what their own Unions have done and barred access to the top tier to only their own chosen few sides in perpetuity, is a little rich.

Ultimately if you make your league the most attractive then fans, sponsors and tv will invest and you have a virtuous circle which the french have achieved, albeit having had the short cut of municipally owned stadia.

I am not a Sarries fan but those that criticise their innovations or like to cast as the pantomine villans in the euro saga should reflect on their being a relatively small club who have had no handouts by council or taxpayer in order to obtain their own ground and have created a ferocious team ethic much like Wasps and Bath did in previous eras.

Why should they have? Instead they've been able to write off £32m in losses!!

[HammerofThunor]

Given in the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variation in the QF teams it would be a pretty small competition if you had to get in QF to be any good. If your Irish teams didn't keep winning all the time some of these guys may have a chance

But if that's a weak group it's not bad is it? Considering we've been forced to have an Italian side. I mean, that's the very worst you could think of and would be a 'lucky' pick

[Exiledinborders]

I good seeding system is not bloody rocket science. Portnoy is always banging on about that website one, which would be fine. Also the international points exchange one could be adopted. The European Champions should be top seeds logically.

I'd say the Franglo's want  it league based so no Rabo team will ever "do an Edinburgh". But really that is the only occasion I can think of that it ever happened. A rabo side getting to the semi's would have been in the top 6 of the league every other time.

The new system will not prevent 'an Edinburgh' because it will not prevent a 'potentially' weak group.

Done a quick rule of thumb based on existing places and got a group of Montpelier, Bath, Glasgow, Treviso which would fit the proposed rules

Glasgow are top 4 in the Pro12 aren't they? Bath are top 4 for AP. Montpellier are top of the T14. That's a 'weak' pool?

Compared to what the other groups would be - YES

None of those teams have done anything in Europe in the current century.
Have any of them even got out of the group stages in that period ?

But Bath are not the team now they were a few years ago. According to the rankings Wasps are ranked higher than Bath. Gloucester are ranked higher than Exeter who in turn are ranked higher than Sale. Clearly that does not represent the current relative strengths of the clubs. A full season of league play is enough to establish who is currently strongest. It certainly gives an incentive to perform in the league.

[geoff998rugby]

Bath are stronger but still not the best and misses the point

The fact is Glasgow would be perfectly capable of getting a Home QF from such a group and making a SF as a result i.e a Scottish team in the SF.

My overall point is a simple one the new seeding system does not ensure that groups of of an even value. Indeed because one off play-offs being crucial to the way groups pan out there could be significant differences.

for example
Leinster, Saracens, Toulon in 1 group
Sale, Glasgow, Castres in another is perfectly possible

[stub]

A bit of background in this article about the negotiations for new European competition and in particular the RFUs role in it. Maybe of interest to some..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27037515

European Rugby Champions Cup: The behind-the-scenes story
By Chris Jones BBC Radio 5 live rugby union reporter at Twickenham
At the height of the European Cup row, one party risked its reputation by refusing to publicly declare its position.
While it kept quiet, everyone else's stance was pretty clear.
On the one hand, the English and French clubs announced their plans for a breakaway tournament - supported by the Welsh regions - and, on the other, the unions of Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Italy and France pledged their support to the status quo; the Heineken Cup, run by current organisers European Rugby Cup (ERC).

Who was part of the debate?

National governing bodies
Rugby Football Union, Irish Rugby Football Union, Scottish Rugby Union, Welsh Rugby Union, Federation Francaise de Rugby, Federazione Italiana Rugby.

Club bodies
Premier Rugby, French Rugby Federation, Regional Rugby Wales.

TV companies
BT Vision, Sky Sports

The Rugby Football Union, however - led by chief executive Ian Ritchie - kept its counsel. And as the dust settles and the ink dries on the contract for the brand new European Rugby Champions Cup, it is apparent that this stance - one of consolidation and conciliation - has borne fruit.
"I think I must be slightly old fashioned in that I do believe it's much better to have discussions like this mainly in private, and mainly keep them confidential," Ritchie told BBC Sport. "But I think we have a very vibrant competition going forward, and stability too over a long-term period."
Over the course of the past few months, Ritchie - as well as RFU chairman Bill Beaumont - has emerged as a key figure in the negotiations.
Because of the RFU's unique position - independent of, yet empathetic to, the wishes of the English clubs, but also unwilling to burn bridges with the other unions of the Six Nations - Ritchie and Beaumont were able to act as mediators between the warring factions.
"We don't have a financial nexus within the competition, the RFU doesn't get any money, and therefore we were able perhaps to play a bit of a broker role," Ritchie explained.
"The meetings were extremely heated, but end result is what is most important. I'm just so delighted for the fans of the game, and I know speaking to England players they really wanted to play in a vibrant European competition. I think everyone comes out of this as a winner."

England fly-half Owen Farrell's Saracens side will be among the English representatives in the new Cup
Ritchie's neutral position proved vital when approaching the thorny issue of the broadcasting rights, with both BT and Sky signing conflicting deals in summer 2012.
Even though the tournament structure and a rough governance model were largely agreed at the start of the year, the TV deal remained the elephant in the room.
However, with over 20 years of experience in the broadcasting industry - he is a former Channel 5 chief executive and joint chairman of Sports News Television - Ritchie was able to act as a intermediary between the two companies.
He eventually organised and chaired face-to-face meetings between Barney Francis of Sky and his BT counterpart Mark Watson. The result was an agreement in principle to share the rights.
"I have to pay tribute to the broadcasters for being prepared to enter into discussions," Ritchie added. "They were both conscious of their broader responsibilities."
Who is Ian Ritchie?
• Joined the RFU as chief executive officer on 27 February 2012
• Previously CEO of the All England Lawn Tennis & Croquet Club from 2005-2011
• Was the first independent non-executive director of a domestic football governing body
During the saga, Ritchie attended over 20 detailed meetings between the various stakeholders, and was involved in "umpteen" other phone calls and liaisons with various protagonists across Europe.
But while he is reluctant to dwell on his own role in the resolution, Beaumont has no doubt that without Ritchie, there would be no European Rugby Champions Cup to look forward to next season.
"He was the one person who could actually speak with authority regarding the two TV companies," Beaumont insisted.
"He knew them well, he knew the individuals involved, and he was probably the only person who could pull that together, and that was an integral part of doing the deal. Once that was done it was just a matter of trying to put the final piece of the jigsaw into place."
While Ritchie was able to call upon his experience in the broadcasting industry and other sports, as well as a fresh approach to rugby administration having only joined the RFU at the start of 2012, Beaumont - a former England captain and a highly respected figure in the game - used his stature to good effect when heading up many of the meetings in his guise as chairman of the Six Nations.

Beaumont captained England to a Grand Slam and his relationships in the game eased negotiations
And Beaumont says that, although negotiations with the other unions became fraught, communication never broke down.
"Even though we may have disagreed, we were still mates and we would still go and have a pint after the meetings," he said. "That's old rugby, and that's what we did. I have a good working relationship with the other countries, and I think we've reached a compromise that will suit all parties."
The European Rugby Champions Cup will give a cash boost to all involved, with the clubs having a greater say in maximising the competition's commercial potential.
There will also be fewer sides from the Pro12, with Italy and Scotland only likely to have one team involved next season. But Beaumont and Ritchie both reject the suggestion that a stronger, more lucrative club competition could damage the integrity of the international game, as has been the case in football.
"You have got to recognise that rugby union only went professional in 1995. That's a really short time ago," Ritchie explained. "What you are looking at is a continuing transition between all the elements of the amateur game into the professional game."
Who is Bill Beaumont?
• Former Grand Slam-winning England captain who earned 34 caps
• Became chairman of the RFU on 8 July, 2012
• Runs the family textile business
• Former captain on 'A Question of Sport'
• Became the second recipient of the CBE for services to rugby union in England
Indeed, rugby union is entering into a new phase, with clubs in England and France especially desperate to ensure the sport grows in the face of both economic and social pressures.
"It's not surprising that the clubs want a say in how the competitions are run, so you have to find the right balance," Ritchie continued. "I think we all recognise there needs to be strong growth of rugby in Europe. I don't think you can characterise this either way as a win for one or another.
"This is about modernising the game, and we have to continue to do that."
In the meantime, Ritchie is free to return to his day job, admitting that the "next priority" is to strike an agreement with the clubs regarding compensation for when the World Cup takes place in 2015.
But he has no doubt the tribulations of the past few months have been worthwhile, although he baulks at suggestions he is the man who "saved" the European Cup.
"I don't think so at all. I think there are plenty of other people involved.
"It's helpful to have a bit of knowledge from other sports, which I've had before I came here, and it's helpful I have spent 20-odd years in broadcasting. But there was a large group of people who did this.
"We spent a lot of time with Mark McCafferty and Bruce Craig at Premiership Rugby, and there was a lot of imagination and creativity coming out of them to try and secure this deal as well. So you have to look at this as a team approach.
"I think it's been well worth the effort. We have a very exciting competition ahead, and a great future for the game in Europe."

[stub]

Ah, just noticed the article is a few days old. Apologies if this has been seen before.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

So far as I can see there are just holed reports of the reported agreement.

But no official publication of the entire agreement in black and white. With all the terms and conditions and the small print.

However, if the PRL is any yardstick to go by, they'll just make it up as they go along.

[Guest]

For all the talk about euro competitions because of the vital money it provides. I have noticed in recent times the far greater prominence given to club league competitions in the Welsh, Scottish and even Irish press.

The Irish Independent even acknowledged that All Ireland competition was far bigger than the old inter provincial games in the amateur era, which goes against some of the established preconceptions on here.

I just wonder if there is a little bit of realisation about the importance of grass roots.

[XR]

Sorry for missing it if it's already been said:

The Qualification for this will be:

6 from AP
6 from T14
7 from P12 with all unions represented.

Can i ask, what is the format to deciding the 7 from the P12? Is it the Top 7 and if, for instance, Italy doesn't have a team in there do they get the 7th spot at the expense of the team in 7th? Or is it the top 4 and spots 5-7 are decided by nationality?

I can't seem to find much online which explains this, grateful for anyone who does know to explain it to me.

Cheers

[HammerofThunor]

Sorry for missing it if it's already been said:

The Qualification for this will be:

6 from AP
6 from T14
7 from P12 with all unions represented.

Can i ask, what is the format to deciding the 7 from the P12? Is it the Top 7 and if, for instance, Italy doesn't have a team in there do they get the 7th spot at the expense of the team in 7th? Or is it the top 4 and spots 5-7 are decided by nationality?

I can't seem to find much online which explains this, grateful for anyone who does know to explain it to me.

Cheers

At the moment I understand it is the best placed teams from each of the 4 participant countries (4), then the next best placed teams in the league (3).

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

If Italian teams were 1 and 2 and Scottish teams were 3 and 4 Welsh 5, 6, 7 and 8 and Irish the bottom 4. (Could happen)

Then you would have teams 1, 3, 5, and 9 qualifying by country and teams 2, 4 and 6 by placing.

However if there was a representative of each nation in the top 7 then all 7 would qualify.

Eg

Leinster
Munster
Ulster
Glasgow
Ospreys
Treviso
Connacht

[Feckless Rogue]

I wonder what will happen to the HC trophy. Will this years winners keep it? I think it should be given to Toulouse for winning it 4 times.

[HammerofThunor]

It gets melted down to make special cufflinks given out to the saviours of European rugby.

[stub]

It gets melted down to make special cufflinks given out to the saviours of European rugby.

  A fitting end Hammer!

[Feckless Rogue]

It gets melted down to make special cufflinks given out to the saviours of European rugby.

Not true. I heard the erc were going to use it to make special cutlery to eat the caviar and lobster dinners, before they lose their jobs (and take up their new jobs in Switzerland).

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