2014 World Snooker Championship Thread

[The Special Juan]

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[The Special Juan]

Stop it, stop it!!

Is that how you see it, a player is either an all-time great or an also-ran?

[CaledonianCraig]

No but lets be truthful here. The likes of Hawkins, Bingham, Fu and Walden will never be in the same league as Hendry, Davis, White, Williams, Higgins or even Ebdon, Doherty and such-like. They just don't have it. When I use the term also-ran I suppose it is more geared to the world championships but that is the real yardstick to measure players by is it not? If it makes you feel better then - Walden is amongst the best players in the world at the moment but that is saying precious little.

[The Special Juan]

No, but few players are. There are maybe 8 players who can be considered all-time greats out of all the players ever to play the game.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yes but the point is the Hawkins, Binghams, Fu's and Walden's wouldn't even get into my top all-time 30 players perhaps even more.

[VTR]

I suppose the thing with the rankings now are they are more fluid and reward form and to some extent a willingness to travel. Going back it seemed to be harder to get out of the top 16 than into it, so the best players were protected and had a huge advantage. I can distinctly remember the likes of Nigel Bond and James Wattana being ranked top 10, in the world, I wouldn't say they are any better of worse than people like Bingham and Hawkins.

[CaledonianCraig]

Wattana certainly was. An excellent potter but Bond I'd put much in the Hawkins/Bingham mould.

Bond got as high as No.5 in the rankings in 1996/97 so that was one weak link in the top ten as the fill list was 1. Hendry 2. J.Higgins 3. P.Ebdon 4. J.Parrott 5. N.Bond 6. A.McManus (who still made quarters this year) 7. K.Doherty 8. R. O'Sullivan 9. D.Morgan 10. S.Davis

No contest when you look at today's top ten and you see a plethora of players destined to be also rans at the world's such as Hawkins, Bingham, Fu and Walden.

[VTR]

How do you define an also ran? Hawkins got to the final last year, semis this year, Walden the semi-final last year. Surely they are no more also rans than McManus, Bond, Morgan and an ageing Davis in the above list.

[CaledonianCraig]

I define also rans as players who never look like winning the world title. You are missing the big issue here in that Hawkins getting to the final last year and Walden to the semis demonstrate how poor the quality is now. Hawkins has been a pro since 1996 and until last year had never ventured beyond the 2nd Round before that. Now that the standards have dropped he is merely filling his boots. As for Ricky Walden the same applies. McManus could be ear-marked an also-ran but of better quality as he has shown by reaching the quarters in this inferior era even though he is well into his 40s. Bond reached a world final so although he could be labelled an also ran for not winning it he plied his trade in a far superior era strength-wise. Morgan as well beat Ronnie twice at The Crucible in the late 90's and three times was a semi-finalist and so would place him above the likes of Hawkins in any all-time list compiled.

[The Special Juan]

Angles won the Masters by beating a peak Hendry in the final 9-8. Also defeated Bond, Doherty and Foulds in that tournament. That's a mightly impressive achievement. I'm not going to say he's anywhere near one of the greatest players ever obviously.

I thought I'd make that point for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

[CaledonianCraig]

I agree TSJ. He may come in the also-ran bracket (as he never won the world title) but he is of better quality than the likes of Hawkins and Bingham and Walden most definitely.

[The Special Juan]

Just looked up Angles' Crucible semi-final opponents. White and Hendry.

Here's a question... where's Jimmy White's place on the list of best players ever? Also-ran or not?

[The Special Juan]

I'm feeling nostalgic now!!

[VTR]

Jimmy    That missed black will haunt me forever as I am sure it does him. Jimmy never winning the WC makes my list of biggest sporting disappointments (alongside England at Italia 90 and Euro 96 and Colin Jackson failing to win Olympic Gold)

[CaledonianCraig]

Well Jimmy White will hold the accolade of the greatest player never to win the world title and cannot see him losing that title for many many years. I wouldn't call him an also ran either due to the many titles he won and how often he reached world championship finals when snooker was at the height of its popularity.

[The Special Juan]

Florian Kohler is superb. He's been my favourite player this year!!

[VTR]

Well Jimmy White will hold the accolade of the greatest player never to win the world title and cannot see him losing that title for many many years. I wouldn't call him an also ran either due to the many titles he won and how often he reached world championship finals when snooker was at the height of its popularity.

Are you sure its not Bingham or Hawkins? Only kidding!

[CaledonianCraig]

Well Jimmy White will hold the accolade of the greatest player never to win the world title and cannot see him losing that title for many many years. I wouldn't call him an also ran either due to the many titles he won and how often he reached world championship finals when snooker was at the height of its popularity.

Are you sure its not Bingham or Hawkins? Only kidding!

No as even Bond is ahead of them.      

[The Special Juan]

00147. Now that's a real nickname.

[VTR]

Well Jimmy White will hold the accolade of the greatest player never to win the world title and cannot see him losing that title for many many years. I wouldn't call him an also ran either due to the many titles he won and how often he reached world championship finals when snooker was at the height of its popularity.

Are you sure its not Bingham or Hawkins? Only kidding!

No as even Bond is ahead of them.      

Haha! I would actually agree with that. He is also ahead of them on the list of best also rans   

[CaledonianCraig]

Well Jimmy White will hold the accolade of the greatest player never to win the world title and cannot see him losing that title for many many years. I wouldn't call him an also ran either due to the many titles he won and how often he reached world championship finals when snooker was at the height of its popularity.

Are you sure its not Bingham or Hawkins? Only kidding!

No as even Bond is ahead of them.      

Haha! I would actually agree with that. He is also ahead of them on the list of best also rans   

He certainly is.   

[The Special Juan]

This has been some break by Neil.

[Dave.]

By my reckoning it is 20 years today since Come On Jimmy missed that black in the decider. I was 3 at the time, what was the atmosphere like in that final and indeed that final frame, when he was on the verge of victory?

[VTR]

By my reckoning it is 20 years today since Come On Jimmy missed that black in the decider.  I was 3 at the time, what was the atmosphere like in that final and indeed that final frame, when he was on the verge of victory?

Well I was 14 and I remember saying to my brother "he's finally going to win it" just before the fateful black. Perhaps it's all my fault. The videos are on Youtube if you want to soak up the atmosphere, I can't remember to be honest, though certainly 99% of the crowd would have been willing Jimmy to win it!

I think 92 was just as painful though 14-10 up, my enduring memory of that is Jimmy sat in his chair looking more and more miserable

[The Special Juan]

Quiz Question...

How many centuries did Alex Higgins make in his career?

[CaledonianCraig]

Quiz Question...

How many centuries did Alex Higgins make in his career?

46

Why so low? Many reasons but the two that spring to mind are that in his day at his peak conditions weren't as condusive t break-building as they are today ie the balls in his day were heavier and far less easy to impart good spin and movement off plus the tablecloths were much coarser. Also The Hurricane was an entertainer - often once a frame was safe he'd be far more inclined to go for the more out-landish shot to please the crowd rather than knuckle down for a century.

[The Special Juan]

The more I think about it, the more I think it was the players' style of break building rather than the conditions. Hendry managed to make centuries in the same conditions.

Alex's 69 against Jimmy was better than any century.

[CaledonianCraig]

Believe you me back in the 70s and 80s conditions were a lot different. The balls were made of ivory if I am not mistaken and cloth was a lot coarser and thick both of which made cueball control more difficult. Hendry came to the fore chiefly in the early 1990s when times were a-changing with the balls used and cloth type.

[The Special Juan]

Yeah I'm not saying the conditions weren't difficult, I just think Hendry reinvented break building. It'd be interesting to see ROS play a few frames on an old table with old balls.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yeah I'm not saying the conditions weren't difficult, I just think Hendry reinvented break building.  It'd be interesting to see ROS play a few frames on an old table with old balls.

Yes I would agree with you there. Hendry brought the screwshot into the pack to develop break building. Up until then players developed the pack of reds with little nudges and stun and run through shots.

[The Special Juan]

Barry needs 2 frames to take this to a final session. That'll do nothing if bug ROS.

[CaledonianCraig]

It is all pretty much immaterial though as O'Sullivan is going to win this. It irks me that it is all so easy yet the standard has not even had to be all that brilliant. In a heck of a lot of these frames Hawkins has had at least one decent chance. Hmm I wonder what the score would have been if an in form Hendry, Williams or Higgins were playing here?

[The Special Juan]

Williams would have had no chance. He's not beaten ROS for 11 years. ROS also had the upper hand on Hendry but I think that was because Hendry peaked early in his career and when he reached his 30s he was never the same player. Higgins was the only man who could match and even outplay ROS at his best. Unfortunately, from a viewers' perspective, he's past it which is a shame because he started the season with a bang.

[CaledonianCraig]

Sorry but have to disagree.....again. Ronnie had his number only once Hendry was past his best which in my opinion came around the turn of the century. So yes if you want to say Ronnie had his number it was only once Hendry had past his best. I did say an in-form Hendry/Higgins/Williams and we all know what animals they were when in amongst the balls and in with a chance of scoring. One visit and the frame was over.

[The Special Juan]

Sorry but have to disagree.....again. Ronnie had his number only once Hendry was past his best which in my opinion came around the turn of the century. So yes if you want to say Ronnie had his number it was only once Hendry had past his best. I did say an in-form Hendry/Higgins/Williams and we all know what animals they were when in amongst the balls and in with a chance of scoring. One visit and the frame was over.

Yeah, the turn of the century when Hendry was past his best (in his 30s). I always thought Hendry was an early bloomer, so to speak, and when he hit his 30s his form started to go. I don't think his favourite cue being reduced to kindling helped either.

[CaledonianCraig]

Again another frame in which Barry Hawkins has had chances. Can he win this one? Like I say it isn't as if Ronnie has been particularly brilliant here.

[CaledonianCraig]

Oh dear Bazza.   

[The Special Juan]

Players are getting chances this year against ROS unlike last year. Selby or Robertson are going to punish his mistakes. Then again, would he be gifting those two chances? He knows Barry's gone mentally and won't be able to take them every time.

[CaledonianCraig]

I'd like to think Selby and Robertson have it in them to beat Ronnie but mentally are they tough enough to do it at The Crucible against a legend? If so they then catapult themselves up into a new level.

[CaledonianCraig]

Do Willie and Dennis not stop to think before opening their gob?? It is far easier out there when you know you have the beating of an opponent who is not at the same level as you especially when leading 14-7 and knowing if you miss your opponent is unlikely to punish you. No pressure whatsoever.

[The Special Juan]

Selby's more than capable. He's done it to ROS in his own backyard (2010 Masters) and if he gets on a hot run can live up to his nickname of The Torturer. Robertson could do it too but will let ROS in more than Selby. Image the century count though...

[CaledonianCraig]

I'd like to see Selby do it. I think he merits a world title if I am being honest but wouldn't complain if it were to be Robertson. I wouldn't even complain (honest) if Ronnie won but just want to see him severly tested.

[The Special Juan]

Perry tested him until he saw the winning line.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yes but I mean tested over the long format of a final so that it is a classic and not a let down of a final. Ronnie about to wind this match up a session early.

[The Special Juan]

Hang your head in shame Barry.

[CaledonianCraig]

And all that from the world No.4.   

[Mad for Chelsea]

well that was pretty shocking from Hawkins. ROS let him in a few times but he just missed far too many easy-ish pots. Ronnie played solid, but hardly anything spectacular. Some nice breaks, but gave away plenty of chances too.

Commentators mentioned the "O'Sullivan factor" and I wonder if it does have an effect? Both Murphy and Hawkins rather fell apart at times. Perry at least forced Ronnie to find his top form in the final session of that match, but other than that it's been second gear so far.

Hoping Selby/Robbo can bring their A-game to the final, but first of all looking forward to the second half of their semi. Selby I think has played very nicely so far in this tournament, while it's been more of a mixed bag for Robbo. When he's hit top form, he's looked unstoppable (first round, and latter parts of the next two rounds also), but he's also played some patchy stuff at times.

[CaledonianCraig]

Very accurate post MfC. Totally agree. I just want an exciting final.

[The Special Juan]

Good start from Mark with a century. If he wins the next one Neil will be getting mightily concerned.

[The Special Juan]

But Neil replies with an 85! Great stuff.

[The Special Juan]

Selby needed that frame. 11-10.

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