Chris Noakes latest kiwi poached by England

First topic message reminder :

Yet another kiwi born, bred and trained player has been deemed by the envy-eyed poms as superior to anything they could rear themselves.

The England-eligible player has been snapped up from Auckland blues in a boobie-for-tat copycat move in response to warren Gatlands targeting of Gareth Anscombe.

One wonders whether some kind of talent royalty to NZ clubs shouldn't be on the agenda and whether shortly international rugby will follow suit with club rugby and be just a wider exhibition of SH talent representing different global brands.

And what for the young lad growing up Britain or France? Or even Italy for that matter? Are their rugby ambitions better served by moving to NZ as soon as possible to put themselves on the radars of European selectors?

There was that English prop too - the one that got into some trouble over getting peckish mid match.

ebop wrote:I like the royalty idea GE. They touch the ball, that's 10 cents please. Ok, maybe not, but clip the ticket somehow rather than having NZ and SA clubs wasting time and money developing players like Noakes and 100 others for no reward. Why doesn't rugby have a transfer system like football? It's rediculous ridiculous. I bet that would do a lot for PI rugby as well. They could actually have clubs in the islands with 'actual' money if they could reap the rewards of their genetics and get paid money for their players.

rugby does have a transfer system. If you take a player in contract you have to pay the club he comes from. If the player is out of contract he may leave. Football does the same.

also why so upset about a journeyman player who is approaching 30 leaving. He would only be "bed-blocking" if he stayed.

Anyone see the Auckland/Queensland game this morning. Looks like Nonu has been motivated by the arrival of that young hurricanes fellow-me-lad whose name I temporarily forget. He was in awesome form showing off his long passing and deft tactical kicking.

Be scared England. We haven't seen nonu in this form for a few seasons.

It will be interesting to see if Fekitoa plays for NZ given that he is from Samoa...

Yeah Nonu is the man, he was lauded today, so good!

Just a question LT, as I clearly don't know much about this, doesn't a rugby club just pay out the existing contract of a player that is still in contract? I didn't think rugby players had a value over and above their contract salary. I don't know so it'd be great if I was educated on this. Guess my comparison with football is the obscene amount of millions that a player like Suarez or Ronaldo would be traded for. Yet for a player like, say Carter, it's almost as if it's his call where he plays and the crusaders aren't rubbing their hands together thinking about the billions they can make by flicking him off to Auckland. Maybe it's just the money in the premier league is 1000 times more lucrative as to why transfers are always more lucrative for the selling club.

Mintie, agree, I think NZ's best players will (hopefully) always stay in NZ for the ABs. High turnover is good, the average players chase the cash because they know their limits, then the next batch has a go, the best stay, the also rans chase the cash, and so on.

Whocares, it'd be awesome if we saw even 2nd tier NH having a crack at itm just to test themselves and maybe get better. It's great when the like of that player you mentioned, Mischalak and Haskell have a go. I reckon both did really well in super15. I saw more of Haskell, thought he was ace and fit right in.

I'd like to see more french players going a year or two in SA or NZ to be honest. Not even 2nt tier but even top players as the exposure to anotehr rugby and referering could only be positive. Michalak was much improved the season after his return from the Sharks ... unfortunately a year later he reverted to his insconstent mode....

Kevin Yates was who I was thinking of earlier.

Interesting point is that with Tom Woods and MJ you have 2 players who went out and did a year or 2 in NZ as very young players and they came back and went on to do great things. I think there must be other examples too.

Of the high profile 'developed' guys who have gone to the SH and then come back you could argue that their careers have not really benefited at all.

Ebop, you pay the club to break their contract. It can be anything they ask for. Usually in rugby it's enough to pay for them to buy out the rest of the contract. But if they really want to they can ask double, triple, whatever someone is willing to pay.

I think.

Julian white also played in nz,otago if memory serves me right before he signed for saracens,got capped in sa not long after.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Wow. A moderator breaking house rules by making a personal attack.

Even if he is breaking them, you break them all the time....

chewed_mintie wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Anyway us Aucklanders dont mind providing England or for that matter the rest of the World  the rest of the World with rugby players, its what we are good at.


For every Noakes or Botica departing the city we have the fresh players the likes of Simon Hickey or a Ihaia West who in a couple of months time will be well known to all the Rugby World.

Careful Laurie, you can't claim West when he's already announced himself on the scene with Hawke's Bay!  A Blues player he is, a JAFA he is not!

 
 
 Fair cop Mintie, here we are having a thread about how all the bad countries are poaching payers from the Canterburys, Waikatos, Aucklands etc. meanwhile the Canterburys, Waikatos, Aucklands are flat out poaching players from Hawke's Bay.
 
And your right on the other point, you do have to be very special to be a JAFA.

Another complete and utter crock of sheiate as a topic by the resident egocentric oaf. Why not go and lick windows?

Hawkes Bay is in the Hurricanes catchment (not that that means anything at all now days) but Hammett chose Marty Banks over West.

rainbow-warrior wrote:Another complete and utter crock of sheiate as a topic by the resident egocentric oaf.  Why not go and lick windows?

Window licking would incur censure from the MODS, this constant carp that GE spews does not it seems.

Mods really, when will you finally address this chump's constant WUM threads?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It will be interesting to see if Fekitoa plays for NZ given that he is from Samoa...

He's actually Tongan. Came to Wesley College (where Jonah Lomu played) at the age of 17 on a rugby scholarship. Incredible he never got a start with the Blues. After all Nonu wasn't playing then. Good to see him get attention for the Highlanders.

And on that note Kia, have a read of this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11249107

I've not seen a 13 do so much individual damage to defences since BOD was young. Fekitoa reminds me greatly of a young Brian O'Driscoll in his playing style. He doesn't have the perfect all-round game yet but he doesn't need to because he finds impossible ways through defences. He's going to be a massive star of world rugby.

As far as I can tell he is only eligible for New Zealand on residency mind you, a fact I'm sure Steve Hansen will be pointing out... right?!   

Next time Ireland play New Zealand Jared Payne from Tauranga, New Zealand will probably play 13 for Ireland and Malakai Fekitoa from Ha'apai, Tonga may very well play 13 for the All Blacks. Neither man has any familial connection to their adoptive countries but economic imperatives have seen them both seek their livelihood overseas and here they are.

International rugby is becoming very strange indeed.

Notch, couple of things you may not have noticed' Jared Payne was playing first class level rugby in New Zealand well before he got the offer to go to Ireland, Whereas Malakai at least went to school in New Zealand.

I like your style notch, you're a very good poster on here. I guess a difference between Payne and Fekitoa would be the age at which they became residents and where they learnt their rugby. Maybe it doesn't matter. It definitely doesn't matter in the rules.

How does going to school in NZ at 17 make him anymore of a New Zealander though? He only went there to better his live financially (just like Payne).
I'm currently getting educated in Dublin but I would never consider myself a dub

Difference being Leinster, is in my opinion it takes a bit more Rugby nouse, savvy,skill, knowledge to identify and develop a future first class rugby player when they are a teenager as opposed to a player who is already playing first class rugby at the age of 27.

Best of luck with your studies, are you getting educated or being educated?

Are you suggesting they had identified as potential All Black and lured him to New Zealand with the promise of a richer future (after all better education is linked to more money)? Sounds like a Steven Jones article

No Im not saying that at all.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Difference being Leinster, is in my opinion it takes a bit more Rugby nouse, savvy,skill, knowledge to identify and develop a future first class rugby player when they are a teenager as opposed to a player who is already playing first class rugby at the age of 27.

Best of luck with your studies, are you getting educated or being educated?

Don't worry I think its smart that NZ scout the islands for talent. Even AUS and the French clubs have finally started doing it now. I wish the Leinster scouts would go over to the islands because we won't be able to get the big SH signing with the way the French are going. We could do with a utilty back until some of are academy guys develop.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Notch, couple of things you may not have noticed' Jared Payne was playing first class level rugby in New Zealand well before he got the offer to go to Ireland, Whereas Malakai at least went to school in New Zealand.

Yeah I noticed all that. He went to school on a rugby scholarship. As in, he was offered a chance at a better life and a possibly a future career because he was good at rugby and now he's qualified on residency to play for New Zealand. If he wasn't good at rugby he wouldn't have had the same opportunity to go to school in New Zealand.

Look, I agree that people make far too much of a storm in a tea cup about New Zealand 'poaching' which is normally a complete myth with nothing to support it and 99% of people who talk about 'poaching' are sanctimonious hypocrites hence why you're defensive. But this is basically exactly the same thing Hansen has been raging about. Jared Payne was making not very much money in New Zealand and his career was going nowhere so he decided to leave and seek employment overseas where there is less competition for more lucrative contracts. Since then he's qualified to play for Ireland on residency. Fekitoa was also offered a chance to improve his career prospects, a shot at that brass ring, and he took it. And now he's qualified for New Zealand. To ignore the similarities there requires it's own brand of hypocrisy.

But... but... Fekitoa would never have been the same player he was if it wasn't for his coaches right? Well, no doubt nobody makes it on their own but they guy has an incredible amount of natural talent. You can smooth the edges off a rough diamond but if you took it from someone else's diamond mine in the first place the law won't smile on you, will it?

I don't want Jared Payne to play for Ireland- not because I don't rate him (I do) or I don't want to support him or his career (I do). He's a wonderful player and it's a privilege to watch him line out for Ulster. I just think three years is too short. I don't support the IRFU on this issue but I sadly and reluctantly acknowledge that only success keeps a Union growing and coaches are left little choice but to pick the best eligible players. If my team benefits from it, I won't enjoy the success any less and I won't stop supporting my team but I do believe it shouldn't be legal as it is under the current rules. Fekitoa has been there for longer (since 2009) and if he wants to play for the All Blacks after that time then I believe he really should be allowed to and I have no issue with it. But don't kid yourselves on. It's exactly the same thing as Hansen (who wasn't adverse to a bit of overseas experience when it came to his own career) was p!ssing and moaning about.

The main reason I'm so keen to see the residency laws tightened (5 years, maximum 1 residency qualified player in each match day 23) is French clubs offering Academy scholarships to talented Island born players. Come over at 18, Academy contract lasts three years and if you make the grade you go into the senior squad aged 21 as a bona fide homegrown French-qualified player. Saracens have set up a feeder club in Tonga with the desire of seeing players come over one day, players who will qualify for England on residency as a side effect. The RFU and FFR are no more involved in that than the NZRU were in Fekitoas 'Rugby Scholarship' but if a France or England team comprised of PI born players knocks NZ out of the 2023 World Cup I bet that won't stop the protestations and finger pointing over poaching. Likewise if Fekitoa scores a wonder try to deny England the World Cup in 2015 get ready for a tidal wave of sanctimonious diatribes about his background. I appreciate there are large differences in scale between Europe and NZ in terms of players moving but it's the same phenomenon, the difference in the volume of players moving is a function of economics not a difference in selection policy at a Union level.

Don't get fooled by Hansens spiel. End of the day the only difference between the FFR, RFU, IRFU and the NZRU when it comes to residency laws... is how you spell their name. I don't want NZ posters to wear hair shirts or to turn on Fekitoa or stop supporting their team if he's picked. That would be a ridiculous overreaction. I will still support Ireland if Payne is picked the same way you'll still support NZ and Fekitoa. We're only as good or bad as each other. Just a bit of recognition that it's not about NZ poachers, or Irish poachers, or English poachers. It's about an entire rugby world with nearly every union using/abusing the residency rule while the IRB sticks its fingers in its ears and closes its eyes.

But shouldnt you be developing your academy guys first, whether they be from Leinster or Lautoka. in other dont go looking to pillage the South pacific Islands (something that Leinster cant be accused of) for the ready made up product, make some contribution yourselves and develop these youngsters. Greg Feek and Jono Gibbes are more than qualified to do this.

aucklandlaurie wrote: But shouldnt you be developing your academy guys first, whether they be from Leinster or Lautoka. in other dont go looking to pillage the South pacific Islands (something that Leinster cant be accused of) for the ready made up product, make some contribution yourselves and develop these youngsters. Greg Feek and Jono Gibbes are more than qualified to do this.

Oh I totally 100% agree. But you can't then say that without someone saying 'Should Wesley College not be looking to developing local talent first?'. After all, a school bringing in a guy on a scholarship is doing that to benefit from his abilities. The big rugby schools over here have a funny habit of finding places for talented rugby players from smaller schools that don't have much to do with their academic ability too. A NZ School went a step further bought in the ready made-up talent from overseas and New Zealand are benefitting from it.

Don't blame you for it, wouldn't support a change in the laws that didn't allow Fekitoa to play for NZ after five years, but don't turn a blind eye to it and get stuck into other Unions.

aucklandlaurie wrote: But shouldnt you be developing your academy guys first, whether they be from Leinster or Lautoka. in other dont go looking to pillage the South pacific Islands (something that Leinster cant be accused of) for the ready made up product, make some contribution yourselves and develop these youngsters. Greg Feek and Jono Gibbes are more than qualified to do this.

We have a serious lack of backline players either just out or in year 3 of the academy because for years we concentrated almost solely on the pack because that is where we have been traditionally the weakest. But we have completely reversed that and we now have front row and back row players come out of our ears but now unfortunately have a shortage in backs.

They are currently trying to fix this, as this year they brought in plenty of centers and wings but it will take time to get them up to standard. The likes of Dardis is only out of school for example. We need a stop gap until these guys can come through.

Notch wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: But shouldnt you be developing your academy guys first, whether they be from Leinster or Lautoka. in other dont go looking to pillage the South pacific Islands (something that Leinster cant be accused of) for the ready made up product, make some contribution yourselves and develop these youngsters. Greg Feek and Jono Gibbes are more than qualified to do this.

Oh I totally 100% agree. But you can't then say that without someone saying 'Should Wesley College not be looking to developing local talent first?'. After all, a school bringing in a guy on a scholarship is doing that to benefit from his abilities. The big rugby schools over here have a funny habit of finding places for talented rugby players from smaller schools that don't have much to do with their academic ability too. A NZ School went a step further bought in the ready made-up talent from overseas and New Zealand are benefitting from it.

Don't blame you for it, wouldn't support a change in the laws that didn't allow Fekitoa to play for NZ after five years, but don't turn a blind eye to it and get stuck into other Unions.

 
 
 Notch I dont know if your trying to just wind me up or being dumb. Wesley College specialises in identifying Polynesian kids throughout the South Pacific with an ability an giving them an education and giving them the opportunity to get ahead in the big Wide World, Many Polynesian artists,Doctors, dentists,lawyers, actors, musicians, scientists and politicians and not just sportmen have benefitted from the achievements of Wesley College and what its objectives are, whether they have remained in New Zealand or returned to their Pacific Island. Many Prime Ministers/members of papliament of the South Pacific have been the product of Wesley College.
 
 You seem to have some impression that its just some prospecting/catchment/developing agency of the NZRFU, which it isnt and to suggest so is blatantly untrue. and is an insult to what the College stands for and achieves for the benefit of the whole South Pacific, and your assertion that Wesley does it to exploit the talents of the child is not only untrue but also straight out insulting.
 
Bottom line, in so far as rugby is concerned Wesley College has devloped many Polynesian kids and many have returned to play for their Pacific islands, and I dont think you guys are prepared to recognise the contribution New Zealand through schools like Wesley makes to this whole part of the World, you just want to sling off with accusations of hypocrisy.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: But shouldnt you be developing your academy guys first, whether they be from Leinster or Lautoka. in other dont go looking to pillage the South pacific Islands (something that Leinster cant be accused of) for the ready made up product, make some contribution yourselves and develop these youngsters. Greg Feek and Jono Gibbes are more than qualified to do this.

We have a serious lack of backline players either just out or in year 3 of the academy because for years we concentrated almost solely on the pack because that is where we have been traditionally the weakest. But we have completely reversed that and we now have front row and back row players come out of our ears but now unfortunately have a shortage in backs.They are currently trying to fix this, as this year they brought in plenty of centers and wings but it will take time to get them up to standard. The likes of Dardis is only out of school for example. We need a stop gap until these guys can come through.

I see what your saying there, and I probably put you crook, perhaps Feek and Gibbo have been doing too much developing? You cant rectify the mid field and let your outstanding talent in the inside backs wander of to France. Develop from the inside out.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Notch wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: But shouldnt you be developing your academy guys first, whether they be from Leinster or Lautoka. in other dont go looking to pillage the South pacific Islands (something that Leinster cant be accused of) for the ready made up product, make some contribution yourselves and develop these youngsters. Greg Feek and Jono Gibbes are more than qualified to do this.

Oh I totally 100% agree. But you can't then say that without someone saying 'Should Wesley College not be looking to developing local talent first?'. After all, a school bringing in a guy on a scholarship is doing that to benefit from his abilities. The big rugby schools over here have a funny habit of finding places for talented rugby players from smaller schools that don't have much to do with their academic ability too. A NZ School went a step further bought in the ready made-up talent from overseas and New Zealand are benefitting from it.

Don't blame you for it, wouldn't support a change in the laws that didn't allow Fekitoa to play for NZ after five years, but don't turn a blind eye to it and get stuck into other Unions.

 
 
 Notch I dont know if your trying to just wind me up or being dumb. Wesley College specialises in identifying Polynesian kids throughout the South Pacific with an ability an giving them an education and giving them the opportunity to get ahead in the big Wide World, Many Polynesian artists,Doctors, dentists,lawyers, actors, musicians, scientists and politicians and not just sportmen have benefitted from the achievements of Wesley College and what its objectives are, whether they have remained in New Zealand or returned to their Pacific Island. Many Prime Ministers/members of papliament of the South Pacific have been the product of Wesley College.
 
 You seem to have some impression that its just some prospecting/catchment/developing agency of the NZRFU, which it isnt and to suggest so is blatantly untrue. and is an insult to what the College stands for and achieves for the benefit of the whole South Pacific, and your assertion that Wesley does it to exploit the talents of the child is not only untrue but also straight out insulting.
 
Bottom line, in so far as rugby is concerned Wesley College has devloped many Polynesian kids and many have returned to play for their Pacific islands, and I dont think you guys are prepared to recognise the contribution New Zealand through schools like Wesley makes to this whole part of the World, you just want to sling off with accusations of hypocrisy.

In Malakai's case I'd have to agree. My personal feeling is he should be playing for Tonga. As he was born and grew up there. In terms of Wesley bringing him over, it's not the case.

Here's a bit of background as I understand it. Malakai Fekitoa was born and spent his early years on a small island in Tonga. he started rugby late. In a large part due to an injury to his pelvis and and legs when he was a child. He came to NZ in 2009, I think to see relatives. Whilst he was here he stayed in south Auckland and played touch. He was encouraged to approach schools by which he did. he approached Wesley College and they gave him a scholarship. I believe it was a sports scholarship. In other words this isn't a case of a college going to the islands and recruiting a player (which does happen and Wesley do give scholarships for rugby players).

Wesley College is unusual. It was created from the amalgamation of two schools: one that provided education for Maori Youth and the other for the Children of Methodist preachers working in the Pacific Islands. It has really strong links to the Islands and also provides for education of poorer sections of the NZ community. As you can see it's unusual and will always have a predominantly Polynesian 1st XV.

By the way they do produce some cracking teams. I think the 2001 team had a backline that included Sivivatu (All Blacks), Tagicakibau (Samoa), Donald (All Blacks), Tupou (Kiwis Rugby League).

Not to mention another young chap from Ha'apia, who went to Wesley, one J.Lomu.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Notch wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: But shouldnt you be developing your academy guys first, whether they be from Leinster or Lautoka. in other dont go looking to pillage the South pacific Islands (something that Leinster cant be accused of) for the ready made up product, make some contribution yourselves and develop these youngsters. Greg Feek and Jono Gibbes are more than qualified to do this.

Oh I totally 100% agree. But you can't then say that without someone saying 'Should Wesley College not be looking to developing local talent first?'. After all, a school bringing in a guy on a scholarship is doing that to benefit from his abilities. The big rugby schools over here have a funny habit of finding places for talented rugby players from smaller schools that don't have much to do with their academic ability too. A NZ School went a step further bought in the ready made-up talent from overseas and New Zealand are benefitting from it.

Don't blame you for it, wouldn't support a change in the laws that didn't allow Fekitoa to play for NZ after five years, but don't turn a blind eye to it and get stuck into other Unions.

 
 
 Notch I dont know if your trying to just wind me up or being dumb. Wesley College specialises in identifying Polynesian kids throughout the South Pacific with an ability an giving them an education and giving them the opportunity to get ahead in the big Wide World, Many Polynesian artists,Doctors, dentists,lawyers, actors, musicians, scientists and politicians and not just sportmen have benefitted from the achievements of Wesley College and what its objectives are, whether they have remained in New Zealand or returned to their Pacific Island. Many Prime Ministers/members of papliament of the South Pacific have been the product of Wesley College.
 
 You seem to have some impression that its just some prospecting/catchment/developing agency of the NZRFU, which it isnt and to suggest so is blatantly untrue. and is an insult to what the College stands for and achieves for the benefit of the whole South Pacific, and your assertion that Wesley does it to exploit the talents of the child is not only untrue but also straight out insulting.
 
Bottom line, in so far as rugby is concerned Wesley College has devloped many Polynesian kids and many have returned to play for their Pacific islands, and I dont think you guys are prepared to recognise the contribution New Zealand through schools like Wesley makes to this whole part of the World, you just want to sling off with accusations of hypocrisy.

The bolded part is actually directly contradicted by my post where I say the NZRU have nothing to do with it.

Notch wrote:The main reason I'm so keen to see the residency laws tightened (5 years, maximum 1 residency qualified player in each match day 23) is French clubs offering Academy scholarships to talented Island born players. Come over at 18, Academy contract lasts three years and if you make the grade you go into the senior squad aged 21 as a bona fide homegrown French-qualified player. Saracens have set up a feeder club in Tonga with the desire of seeing players come over one day, players who will qualify for England on residency as a side effect. The RFU and FFR are no more involved in that than the NZRU were in Fekitoas 'Rugby Scholarship'

So I actually have the opposite impression, which is a relief for you because now you can climb down off your high horse ;)I'll also point out that I have no objection to Wesley Colleges ethos. They nurture talent, as all great schools do. Fekitoa has talent and he got this opportunity on the basis of his talent. I never suggested they were exploiting him- writing that is more of an insult to me than anything else. He benefits more than anyone. He gets an incredible headstart in life compared to what he'd get otherwise and they get a fantastic rugby player.

There is no doubt that the education and scholarship Fekitoa has received at Wesley College will really help him get on in life and Wesley College deserve credit for that, but my point is thats no different to any other player who qualifies for a country on residency. French clubs who bring in Fijian kids to their Academy are doing exactly the same thing- those kids will get a third level education and top class rugby coaching. Saracens feeder club is designed to give players the opportunity to play at a high level and nurture talent. Players like Jared Payne getting opportunities they can't get in NZ is the same thing- he gets financial security he can't get in NZ, as NZ can't support a large number of high salaries. In every case the player is the one who benefits the most. In every case it's a player moving overseas to get a better opportunity in life and then, later, the Unions swoop in to take advantage of the residency rules. It's not Ulster or Wesley College or the French/English clubs who are responsible for the residency laws and it's not the Unions who should be blamed for taking advantage of them. Its the IRB who make the laws and its the IRB who need to review this part of the law as a matter of urgency.

I'll say it again, I believe Fekitoa has the right to play for New Zealand and having been there for five years he should have that right in my opinion. I wish it was financially viable for him to play for Tonga, but that would possibly jeopardise his ability to earn a contract playing in New Zealand and it would definitely mean he'd earn less than if he was All Black. It's his decision ultimately. In a perfect world he'd take that talent and express it by representing the nation of his birth, just like I wish Lomu had. A Tonga team with those guys in it would be closer to being able to stand as equals to Tier 1 rugby nations instead of being treated like the second class citizens of the rugby world. I'm not a fan of residency qualifications but the player's personal choices must be respected.

But the point is the NZRU have the exact same policy as the RFU, FFR, IRFU, SRU etc. when it comes to selecting players qualified on residency. Residency qualifications desperately need to be reviewed to stop all the Unions that exploit them. The IRB should address this.

Notch wrote:
There is no doubt that the education and scholarship Fekitoa has received at Wesley College will really help him get on in life and Wesley College deserve credit for that, but my point is thats no different to any other player who qualifies for a country on residency. French clubs who bring in Fijian kids to their Academy are doing exactly the same thing- those kids will get a third level education and top class rugby coaching. Saracens feeder club is designed to give players the opportunity to play at a high level and nurture talent. Players like Jared Payne getting opportunities they can't get in NZ is the same thing- he gets financial security he can't get in NZ, as NZ can't support a large number of high salaries. In every case the player is the one who benefits the most. In every case it's a player moving overseas to get a better opportunity in life and then, later, the Unions swoop in to take advantage of the residency rules. It's not Ulster or Wesley College or the French/English clubs who are responsible for the residency laws and it's not the Unions who should be blamed for taking advantage of them. Its the IRB who make the laws and its the IRB who need to review this part of the law as a matter of urgency.

I'll say it again, I believe Fekitoa has the right to play for New Zealand and having been there for five years he should have that right in my opinion. I wish it was financially viable for him to play for Tonga, but that would possibly jeopardise his ability to earn a contract playing in New Zealand and it would definitely mean he'd earn less than if he was All Black. It's his decision ultimately. In a perfect world he'd take that talent and express it by representing the nation of his birth, just like I wish Lomu had. A Tonga team with those guys in it would be closer to being able to stand as equals to Tier 1 rugby nations instead of being treated like the second class citizens of the rugby world. I'm not a fan of residency qualifications but the player's personal choices must be respected.

But the point is the NZRU have the exact same policy as the RFU, FFR, IRFU, SRU etc. when it comes to selecting players qualified on residency. Residency qualifications desperately need to be reviewed to stop all the Unions that exploit them. The IRB should address this.

I'm with you on most of this. Think Malakai should play for Tonga not NZ. A couple of points though.

He wasn't brought over on a scholarship. He was in NZ and approached the school. It doesn't change the broader picture. I.e. he's still a Tongan born and essentially bred player playing in NZ.

Lomu did play for his country of Birth. He was born in Auckland (in case anyone's used Wikipedia it's in error and can be cross referenced against Lomu's webpage http://www.jonahlomu.com/lomu/?sub=statistics). He spent a few years as a small child living in the Islands, but essentially grew up in Auckland.

I'm not sure NZ schools are analagous with European clubs. I think NZ super 15 sides, and there supporting unions are. There is a difference. That being that the schools and unions essentially operate separately. The schools are interested in the gain for their school in local and national competitions, but their interest ends when school ends. The unions are to some degree parallel. Where as say in France, England and Rabo direct, the clubs and development programs are ties into the agreement with their unions. This includes agreements on locally qualified players. This structure and the money involved makes Europe a threat to Island rugby that NZ can never be. Add in the impact of Australia recruiting for players that are Aussie qualified for super 15 and their new national league and league recruitment for the NRL and NTC. It's likely to leave the Island increasing dependent on second generation expat communities.

Ah sorry about that. I was going by aucklandlauries comment and his wikipedia page. No worries.

This word 'poached' - I don't like it applied to rugby players or anyone else for that matter. Poaching is stealing and therefore illegal, whether it's salmon from someone's river or elephant tusks from a protected species.

When a player - eg Chris Noakes - has been brought up and coached in one country but is dual-qualified, fans will obviously have strong opinions on which country he should play for.

But ultimately the decision - acting within the rules - is up to the player. And that should be equally obvious.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It will be interesting to see if Fekitoa plays for NZ given that he is from Samoa...

No he isn't.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It will be interesting to see if Fekitoa plays for NZ given that he is from Samoa...

No he isn't.

Keep up GE, that debate has been done to death now.

Oh and E haere rā.

Ozzy3213 wrote:
Oh and E haere rā.

"We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when..."

optimist wrote:This word 'poached' - I don't like it applied to rugby players or anyone else for that matter. Poaching is stealing and therefore illegal, whether it's salmon from someone's river or elephant tusks from a protected species.

When a player - eg Chris Noakes - has been brought up and coached in one country but is dual-qualified, fans will obviously have strong opinions on which country he should play for.

But ultimately the decision - acting within the rules - is up to the player. And that should be equally obvious.

Just a thought from a long time reader, new poster as I've been watching this interesting and pertinent debate unravel and can no longer resist an intervention:

A word can have many meanings. "Poached" can also be taken to mean "trample soft mud" which some evidently feel Noakes has done to his country of birth and those that supported and trained him.

It can also mean "sink into a boggy mire" which some may believe Noakes is about to.

It might also be taken to mean "steal fish or game" - with the right mindset it may appear that Noakes is about to steal game time from those born in England with aspiration to play for a london club.

Are we sure all respondents are arguing the same point here?

It's also a way of cooking eggs (which my wife insists on and is a pain in the arse).

Welcome Pavlova

Thanks for the welcome.

There is a trick to poaching eggs. I worked in a kitchen for 5 years making poached eggs. It's easy when you get the hang of it.

Welcome fella

I'd be really interested to hear your trick about poaching eggs. I've heard so many that it's hard to tease out the correct way. This is my way. Add vinegar to boiling water, bring off the boil, swirl the water, plonk an egg in the middle of the whirlpool. Doesn't always pan out though. Must be doing something wrong.

And poaching is a provocative term in rugby but it is a touchy subject. Only the IRB can do anything about it. Until then, players are doing what they can, even though it's a slap in the face.

The Aussies poached pavlova.

Ebop, that's how I do them. I once had a long argument with a girl that you didn't need a 'poacher' (little plastic dish that you suspend in water) to poach eggs and you could do it with loose eggs. She didn't believe me.

Phew, so I'm on the right track, thanks Hammer. Works most of the time, just gotta get it off the boil so the eggs don't fall apart. Wow, little plastic dish, clever but takes all the risk out of it. I'd rather live life on the edge and crack it straight into the water Laurie, you know what you've just started. Where's LB?

I'm here.   

We do not poach pavlova, Laurie. We bake it properly as the recipe says.

I suppose you'll be claiming you nurtured and developed Brad Thorn next!

Morning LB,

Yes you did nurture and develop Brad Thorn, but it was light poaching that completed the finished article.

By the way congrats on your kangaroo display on Friday night, you guys beat us without getiing out of second gear.

Oh and you guys didnt poach Joe Bjelke, we gave him to you.

ebop wrote:Phew, so I'm on the right track, thanks Hammer. Works most of the time, just gotta get it off the boil so the eggs don't fall apart. Wow, little plastic dish, clever but takes all the risk out of it. I'd rather live life on the edge and crack it straight into the water :)Laurie, you know what you've just started. Where's LB?

Using a plastic poaching dish is like buying a load of ready made rugby players for your team rather than developing your own

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Morning LB,

Yes you did nurture and develop Brad Thorn, but it was light poaching that completed the finished article.

By the way congrats on your kangaroo display on Friday night, you guys beat us without getiing out of second gear.

Oh and you guys didnt poach Joe Bjelke, we gave him to you.

Thanks mate. A little bit of a scare there early on. Your blokes sprung out of the blocks very quickly indeed. The ambush was definitely on.

Sent our commentators into a spin... did you here them say "well done to NZ for selecting young, in-form players... the Kangaroos will need to start to think about replacing their ageing stars"? I thought that was a pertinent comment.

Thanks for Joh. He got things done in Qld... especially all the roads leading to and from his property in Kingaroy.
He was a real tuff NZ bastard... the sort we welcome over here!