In test rugby how important is national pride in player performance?

In test rugby how important is national pride in player performance?

Just read an article of Sias Ebersohn, the boere pivot for the Western Force and it got me pondering a question. For those not in the know, he moved a few years back from the Cheetahs with many suggesting it was because he wasn’t getting the opportunities to make a claim for a bok jersey and when the offer came from the ARU, he took it.

This season with the Force on fire, he has now begun a debate both in some circles in SA and in AUS into whether he is actually now good enough for a call up. Previously most including myself were of the opinion that he was a good club player, nothing more.
When pressed on the matter this is what he said recently...

"I have a dream to play international rugby. At the moment the Springboks are the only team I am eligible to play for. If they put a Bok jersey in front of me, I'd never say no, but I also wouldn't turn down a Wallaby jersey."

Whilst I’m not suggesting all players should follow a mandate of “God, Queen & Country”, do so for free and at their own expense it does sound a little shallow to me. If I was an Australian I’m not sure I would want someone who has 1 year out from claiming residency that he would never say no to a bok callup i.e. we’re 2nd choice.
For a country like AUS, surely 2nd choice is not acceptable especially if it’s stated in public.

If rugby was an individual sport I could be more relaxed about the whole agenda, but in a team sport you need togetherness, not players looking out for their own personal glory (see Kevin Pietersen for details). You want players to want to play for their country, to wear the badge and see it as the ultimate achievement.
If you ask a young rugby player in SA what was more prized, a springbok cap and a RWC runners-up medal or a NZ cap and RWC winners medal you would hope they would say the former. If not something is seriously wrong in the country.

This isn’t another, oh is he really English/Welsh/Irish/French question but rather whether or not those with no ancestral ties to the team they represent going to be worth their inclusion over an equal indigenous individual in the clutch moments?

When the pressure comes does playing for YOUR TRUE country mean you will be willing to push your body further, break that pain barrier and commit yourself up and beyond that expected of you?

One person who believes this to be true was Machiavelli in the prince;

I say, therefore, that the arms with which a prince defends his state are either his own, or they are mercenaries, auxiliaries, or mixed. Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you. They are ready enough to be your soldiers whilst you do not make war, but if war comes they take themselves off or run from the foe; which I should have little trouble to prove, for the ruin of Italy has been caused by nothing else than by resting all her hopes for many years on mercenaries, and although they formerly made some display and appeared valiant amongst themselves, yet when the foreigners came they showed what they were.

If what he says is true then should coaches be wary of foreign players in their side? Yes they may have superior skills but if we choose so called lesser players born & raised in country then perhaps they would go this extra mile when it really matters?

It’s not an easy black or white position to hold in my opinion, many foreign players get caps on ancestral grounds, some are very patriotic, others less so. Rhodesians & English South Africans are very patriotic to the old country for example.

Who is to say patriotism is an asset or a liability on the sporting arena?

Chaps like Wayne Rooney and Paul Gascoigne are/were very patriotic to their country and always seemed to try too hard in the big games and never realised their true potential. Perhaps if they were a little less caring they would have performed better?

I am over these comments from players who will play for anyone offering them an international cap.

Basically these comments are in a sense an ultimatum to their original countries saying if you don't pick me I will commit to someone else.

In my view they should play for their adopted country, as it is obvious playing international rugby is the priority here, not who they care to represent.

So good luck to Sias, may he stick to his guns and play for Australia, The fact is international rugby simply does not have the importance it once had, it is all about the money.

My short answer - don't be so naive. Pride in the shirt is subjective.

And pride, patriotism, Machiavelli…all a bit of an anachronism. Pro rugby si about the filthy lucre, and because the market is so unbalanced wage wise, players will end up representing countries to which they have no affiliation.

It's a sad but natural result of the corporitisation of all aspects of life from education and medicine to sport.

We won't know until we see teams that are composed of a majority non-natives. Right now most nations when they name a team it's nearly all natives and maybe just one or two who aren't.

Hopefully we never see a situation where teams are dominated by foreign players.

I think national pride is more important from a team perspective and the performance of the squad rather than at the individualistic level.

Very few professional sportsmen lack the motivation or desire to produce anything less than peak performance but when the chips are down and things aren't going well maybe its things like national pride that give a bit of something extra.

Honestly though I think once professional players cross the white line they are focused on the process rather than the occasion.

Its not necessarily about national pride.

As Machiavelli insinuated mercenaries are only there for the good time, never there in the bad. When the going gets tough, when you're 14 points down to the ABs you need strong minded and determined players to say, "no further, not on my watch". Guys who will take losses personal thinking they have let their family down, their friends down, their country down.

It reminds me of the kilted kiwi's around the turn of the millenium. Martin Leslie,  John Leslie, Glen Metcalfe & Brendan Laney all suddenly joined the SRU setup straight off the plane.

The guys were talented, some of them very talented yet they simply looked like they were doing it for the job, the money. They never replicated their form in the SH albeit in some flashes and as soon as their career ended, they all packed up and went home.

and these chaps had ancestry behind them.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced that for a foreigner to beat an indigenous player to a jersey i would want him to be not only be vastly superior in skill but also show an attitude when the chips are down.

For what its worth I always thought Nathan Hines was an exception. Perhaps this was because he started his pro career in Scotland after only being a club man in AUS. He went to Scotland and started playing club rugby and moved up the ranks organically.

In a Professional Age is it any wonder players follow the money?IF you can better money
in Aus,Uk,France,Japan why not?
In the case of Ebersohn what does it matter?SA players can island hop to there hearts
content.IF there good enough the Boks will pick them,that isn`t true of NZ/Aus they
only pick residents.
The rules are there for all nations,IF a player can`t get game time and want`s to improve
his career.So be it his loss is someone elses`s gain,he probably would have been already
at least part of a wider squad if he was in SH frame.

Not sure ebersohn would have made it in SA without goihng abroad.

In essence with only 5 top tier pro teams you're pretty much limited to 5 flyhalves in the country to choose from.
Goosen is a better player and a better prospect who is at his old club the Cheetahs.

If you can't make it in your own provincial side, don't expect to be part of the wider squad.

emack2 wrote:In a Professional Age is it any wonder players follow the money?IF you can better money
in Aus,Uk,France,Japan why not?
In the case of Ebersohn what does it matter?SA players can island hop to there hearts
content.IF there good enough the Boks will pick them,that isn`t true of NZ/Aus they
only pick residents.
The rules are there for all nations,IF a player can`t get game time and want`s to improve
his career.So be it his loss is someone elses`s gain,he probably would have been already
at least part of a wider squad if he was in SH frame.

There is so much about your post that says exactly what the attitude is these days.

Pride of country and jersey has been bought by money. Those who can buy a world cup with another man's stock will do so and to hell with pride of tradition.

Biltong wrote:

emack2 wrote:In a Professional Age is it any wonder players follow the money?IF you can better money
in Aus,Uk,France,Japan why not?
In the case of Ebersohn what does it matter?SA players can island hop to there hearts
content.IF there good enough the Boks will pick them,that isn`t true of NZ/Aus they
only pick residents.
The rules are there for all nations,IF a player can`t get game time and want`s to improve
his career.So be it his loss is someone elses`s gain,he probably would have been already
at least part of a wider squad if he was in SH frame.

There is so much about your post that says exactly what the attitude is these days.

Pride of country and jersey has been bought by money. Those who can buy a world cup with another man's stock will do so and to hell with pride of tradition.

You mean like in 2007 when the boks hired Eddie Jones as an external team director for the duration of the RWC?

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

emack2 wrote:In a Professional Age is it any wonder players follow the money?IF you can better money
in Aus,Uk,France,Japan why not?
In the case of Ebersohn what does it matter?SA players can island hop to there hearts
content.IF there good enough the Boks will pick them,that isn`t true of NZ/Aus they
only pick residents.
The rules are there for all nations,IF a player can`t get game time and want`s to improve
his career.So be it his loss is someone elses`s gain,he probably would have been already
at least part of a wider squad if he was in SH frame.

There is so much about your post that says exactly what the attitude is these days.

Pride of country and jersey has been bought by money. Those who can buy a world cup with another man's stock will do so and to hell with pride of tradition.

You mean like in 2007 when the boks hired Eddie Jones as an external team director for the duration of the RWC?

I wasn't aware Eddie played for us.

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

emack2 wrote:In a Professional Age is it any wonder players follow the money?IF you can better money
in Aus,Uk,France,Japan why not?
In the case of Ebersohn what does it matter?SA players can island hop to there hearts
content.IF there good enough the Boks will pick them,that isn`t true of NZ/Aus they
only pick residents.
The rules are there for all nations,IF a player can`t get game time and want`s to improve
his career.So be it his loss is someone elses`s gain,he probably would have been already
at least part of a wider squad if he was in SH frame.

There is so much about your post that says exactly what the attitude is these days.

Pride of country and jersey has been bought by money. Those who can buy a world cup with another man's stock will do so and to hell with pride of tradition.

You mean like in 2007 when the boks hired Eddie Jones as an external team director for the duration of the RWC?

I wasn't aware Eddie played for us.

Coach can make a diff too no?

and all the points where scored by a Namibian???

I know he's not and technically Walvis Baai was in SA until 1994 but still I'm sure some chancer will mention it the next time the boks foreign mob is discussed.

FA

I think you've asked a valid question in a good way. From my perspective as an England supporter, I think the answer is: 'It depends on the individual'.

Obviously England have tried quite a few players over the last decade who have qualified through residency or distant relations. Some have looked like they were prepared to give everything for the team (Barritt, Fourie, Botha [where the issue was he simply wasn't good enough]) and others looked like they were playing for a job (Flutey Hape).

I think it would be difficult for someone who has just qualified through 3 years of residency to have the same mindset as an 'indigenous' player, but I think some can grow to love their adopted country over a longer period (Les Vainikolo for one - married an English lady and his family are well set up here). I don't think many people watching Manu Tuillagi play for England would question his dedication and commitment, but then he's ben here for nearly 10 years from being a kid and so his rugby was at least in part developed in the England system (although I always wonder what Tuillagi family games are like    ).

Ultimately, I guess it comes down to the selectors and coach deciding whether a residence-qualified player is (A) good enough and (B) of the right character, then giving him a go to see what actually happens. Some will work out, others not so much...

Guess a lot of it has to do with a union's team/rugby culture and whether the 'locals' accept that a player like this SA lad has earned his potatoes. Imposters will get found out and spat out. Personally, i don't like this blackmailing that players are doing these days, no doubt driven by filthy pig agents. I bet most rugby players are humble by nature and they're led around like puppets with all this 'set yourself up for life' BS mantra. Many players don't 'deserve' to be set up beyond their playing days but I bet they're told to sell their souls for this goal.

I don't think New Zealanders think John Gallagher was uncommitted, and I'm fairly certain Martin Johnson would have given his all for the silver fern if things had turned out differently for him.

We should probably tread carefully when making sports and war comparisons. Blundering on, however, you often read in military memoirs how a lot of heroics are driven by the fear of letting fellow soldiers down, rather than patriotic fervour.

You could make the case that the best professional team players have a similar attitude. They want the respect of their peers, are motivated by competition, and don't want their family members reading a report of how they looked disinterested during a game.

Gave up worrying about this when I saw the impact of the intro of professionalism on Auckland rugby. Anythings for sale. Was only a matter of time before the country hopping got going.

Allegiance to club and country is one for us dying breed bought up on the amateur game. Its also largely a fan thing. The players walk around from the first day they believe they have what it takes to make a living so will be very quickly aware of what their International options are, knowing that a test record will enhance their CV emphatically.

Within that context 'playing for the ABs' will be a consideration and outwardly, mainly for the sake of us fans riding on their every word, the dream will be communicated passionately. But chips on the table, wifey and the ankle biters not too far away...'priorities' come to the forefront...and theyre off. Simple as that.

The problem is now it isn`t a Sport it`s a job,with big money available in Japan or Top 14,
or League if it suits.
You have Club sides like Toulon have a squad of say 40 players with perhaps 6 nationally
qualified.
It is as much an anathema to me when teams from Italy and Spain won all the Soccer trophies from 1960`s on.
They won but it wasn't with many home grown players,France has ALWAYS been full
of Professional players.Every club poached and bought players and officials by any means.
In the case of SH sides don`t think it`s a problem because you perform or you are cast
out.Forced to go abroad for money.game time whatever.
Often they are very proud of there adopted country,and your example of Fluety is a poor
one.But for injuries he would have been a starter for both England and the Lions compared
to him.
I`ve seen better Centres playing for E ngland in a box of "Black Magic"when you were
competing with.
Nonu,Umaga,and Conrad Smith no wonder you are short of game time he a least was
true to his club/adopted country.
Unlike some and now the money grabbers are coming home to try for RWC places
that of course is a little of subject.

I think pride is important but not necessarily national pride. Flutey as emack says was a good player for England but clearly didn't consider himself English. For that reason I would rather have never seen him in a white shirt. However they change the rules (if they ever do) we will see examples which test our comfort levels and personally I'd like to see more coaches decide on a case by case period. Quite a lot to ask while their jobs are on the line though.

There were times when Super rugby teams had players from that region playing for the team. Now there are players drafted in from anywhere. In a way clubs like Toulouse are like the big football clubs. They soak up the talent because they're prepared to pay for that talent. Inevitably there are players drawn into the national set up by those club player movements.

The Olympics are far removed from their original intent. Add money into anything, from politics to companies listed on the stock market, and you see short term gain win out over principles and lofty ideals. I see parallels with Ironman and rugby. Both relatively niche amateur sports but now there are big corporate interests behind them. Welcome to the cynical age in which we live.

This post was sponsored by Monteith's.

It sort of reminded me when Richardt Strauss played for Ireland vs. the boks. Not sure if it was his first cap but he was facing his cousin Adriaan and within 5-10 mins there was trouble, you got the feeling he had realised he had made a mistake and was wearing the wrong shade of green.

Its one of those things in sport.

Why is it that home to away records are so different? In essence they are all the same, is Twickenham that much different to Paris? We now have pro impartial referees that should negate home bias. home win ratios are still as high as ever.

Is it really the crowd or is a mentality by the home team thinking that we don't lose at home and the away team thinking, we don't win away?

Similar to a player sticking on a jersey. Say McCaw put on the green and gold? Would he be as good, some part of me thinks yes, another makes me think probably close but not quite... and the difference between the two is perhaps the difference between a top class player and a all-time great player.

Perhaps its pride (if representing your own country), perhaps its self doubt thinking I shouldn't really be wearing this jersey (if representing another).

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:There were times when Super rugby teams had players from that region playing for the team. Now there are players drafted in from anywhere. In a way clubs like Toulouse are like the big football clubs. They soak up the talent because they're prepared to pay for that talent. Inevitably there are players drawn into the national set up by those club player movements.

The Olympics are far removed from their original intent. Add money into anything, from politics to companies listed on the stock market, and you see short term gain win out over principles and lofty ideals. I see parallels with Ironman and rugby. Both relatively niche amateur sports but now there are big corporate interests behind them. Welcome to the cynical age in which we live.

This post was sponsored by Monteith's.

At least in SR you know that the teams will have probably be 13-14 players qualified for the franchises country of origin, and residency is hardly ever an issue (albeit an issue in the original post with Sias Ebersohn's & AUS).

Look at the melbourne Rebels. Woodward says hes been able to go to a close knit side because none of the team are actually from Melbourne, so none have a lot of family or friends there and so largely stick together. I wonder how many melbournites out there dream about playing for the Rebels...can the last one turn the lights out on the way out please?

Lots of Polynesians and Melanesians ply their trade in Super rugby. We've had NH cast offs like Michalak, Cipriani and Haskell and that might increase in the future. The Force and Rebels are like a Star Wars collection of mercenaries and freedom fighters and their lack of roots hasn't hurt them. Most of Manu Samoa are Kiwis but they tap into their island roots so you don't have to have citizenship to be a tight knit group but you do need a common ethos or ideal to bind you together to be an effective team.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Lots of Polynesians and Melanesians ply their trade in Super rugby. We've had NH cast offs like Michalak, Cipriani and Haskell and that might increase in the future. The Force and Rebels are like a Star Wars collection of mercenaries and freedom fighters and their lack of roots hasn't hurt them. Most of Manu Samoa are Kiwis but they tap into their island roots so you don't have to have citizenship to be a tight knit group but you do need a common ethos or ideal to bind you together to be an effective team.

A lot of the chaps though are 1st generation and live in a big community of fellow immigrants right, as in Auckland? Ties will still be very strong.

Not the same as some channel islander being technically allowed to play for either Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales.

I don't think their will be many more heading to SR from the north. It pretty much means test career is over/on hold due to the seasonal differences, spots will be rare due to the unions wanting only test available players playing super rugby and salaries are lower to boot.

It will happen but often when players find themselves in test wilderness.

You need to consider what home advantage is.

It has a number of aspects, the crowd, the fact that you feel more comfortable at home, the effect of the home crowd on the referee, the effect of the home crowd on the opposition.

Referees may intend to be unbiased and fair, however that is never the case, there is always a slant towards the home team, we see it in almost every match, be it a 50/50 forward pass that the crowd jeer, a 50/50 on a high tackle, the home crowd undoubtedly influences the referee on a subconscious level, it is only human.

An away team can be unsettled by a home crowd if they are hostile, especially if they make early mistakes and the crowd is not silenced early.

etc.

Not saying there's not a strong connection but that's what you need to be a strong unit. Not all play in the Auckland region but they all have those roots in common.

I look at the AB set up and it's an eclectic bunch who are told to go about things in different ways. Nonu for example is told to play his best for the team, like it were a family unit and McCaw is told to be the best to inspire his team mates. Collectively they're not the greatest set of individuals but as a team they're fiercely competitive and have an unshakeable belief in the team as well as a commitment to the team. Something's right in that set up as opposed to a team like France and it's not down to patriotism but it is down to team spirit and your commitment to not let down the team.

I think that small unit cohesion is the real reason those guys go out there week after week and try to give it everything. In the end, a team does it for eachother and in something like rugby, the other players see game on game whether a team mate is prepared to put his body on the line for them. In this context, patriotism is only one of the factors that can cause a guy to commit. Lions teams might be a good example of what I'm talking about: If you can get the guys playing for eachother there's every chance of a successful tour; if you can't, no chance. Patriotism can actually get in the way.

On the other hand, there are undoubtedly players who are motivated by patriotism. So overall I think you have to regard it as an important but not the only factor that has a bearing on getting the extra bit and a bit more out of a player.

Cowshot wrote:I think that small unit cohesion is the real reason those guys go out there week after week and try to give it everything. In the end, a team does it for eachother and in something like rugby, the other players see game on game whether a team mate is prepared to put his body on the line for them. In this context, patriotism is only one of the factors that can cause a guy to commit. Lions teams might be a good example of what I'm talking about: If you can get the guys playing for eachother there's every chance of a successful tour; if you can't, no chance. Patriotism can actually get in the way.

On the other hand, there are undoubtedly players who are motivated by patriotism. So overall I think you have to regard it as an important but not the only factor that has a bearing on getting the extra bit and a bit more out of a player.

Shame there is no like button.