European Champions Cup qualifying play off. London Wasps v Stade Français.

First topic message reminder :

A new concept this one to decide who takes the 20th spot in next season's ECC.

London Wasps team:-

15. Andrea Masi 
14. Will Helu 
13. Elliot Daly 
12. Chris Bell (c) 
11. Tom Varndell 
10. Andy Goode 
9. Joe Simpson 
1. Matt Mullan 
2. Carlo Festuccia 
3. Phil Swainston 
4. Joe Launchbury 
5. Tom Palmer 
6. Ashley Johnson 
7. James Haskell 
8. Nathan Hughes

16. Tom Lindsay 
17. Simon McIntyre 
18. Taione Vea 
19. Kearnan Myall 
20. Guy Thompson 
21. Brett Sheehan 
22. Joe Carlisle 
23. Charlie Hayter
_____________________

I can't find the SF team anywhere. Wasps ring the changes after last week's embarrassment at Northampton. Jake Cooper-Woolley (outstanding this season) will be missed.

The Black & Gold need to rack up a substantial win to hold off SF at Stade Jean Bouin next weekend.

what a donkey, awful play.

Great job by Wasps!

stunned, surprised, and not a liitle shocked. well done!

Well done Wasps. Very clearly the better team across both legs.

Stades skills are very poor for an elite side. Very disappointing.

Well done Wasps. Does that make it 7 Anglo and 6 French in the RCC next year? Will this play-off take place every year or was this a one-off?

This playoff will take place every year except from next year there will be 2 Pro12 sides (best two not already qualified) and they'll play the seventh placed in the other leagues away from home. So it'll be 4 teams jockeying for the last spot.

Wow that's pretty cool! There's a chance for an extra Welsh team then, given that they'll probably finish higher than the Italians. Maybe Connacht will be in with a shout if they keep improving.

Yeah, it's a strange one though with the Pro12 sides being away all the time. I suppose they insisted on that because there are 2 sides and the other leagues get 1?

Yeah that isn't really fair IMO, it should have been a random selection, or possibly a neutral location. So just to confirm that makes it 7 x Pro12, 6 x Anglo, 6 x French and 1 play-off winner? 7th place finishers in the Top14 and Aviva and highest finishers in and around the top 7 in Pro12?

It'll be 7th and 8th in the Pro12 in next years playoffs most likely. Neither Italian side looks even close to capable of getting out of the bottom four.

Horrible game. Stade general skills are similar to the ones displayed earlier in Montauban (in a 3rd division playoff!)

Notch wrote:It'll be 7th and 8th in the Pro12 in next years playoffs most likely. Neither Italian side looks even close to capable of getting out of the bottom four.

They have already lost quite a few players for next season because players didn't know if they would have a competition to play.

Well done Wasps - that's 6 out of 6 against French clubs this season.

Stade were utterly awful. Basic skillset completely lacking I'm afraid, and real issues with the discipline too. Wasps at a complete canter, fully deserved.

Thought Haskell's yellow was a little harsh, he didn't attack the guy, he just shoved him to the floor, after watching him blatantly slide into Simpson with his knees, which looked very dangerous. I know people will say "leave it to the ref" but I feel his reaction was quite mild really (pushed him, then pointed at him in a "hey ref did you see what this guy just did" sort of way).

Have to say i expected it to be a much closer fight.

anyone know when groups are picked as only the league finals left to be decided

Brendan wrote:Have to say i expected it to be a much closer fight.

anyone know when groups are picked as only the league finals left to be decided

Draw is going to take place mid june

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Notch wrote:It'll be 7th and 8th in the Pro12 in next years playoffs most likely. Neither Italian side looks even close to capable of getting out of the bottom four.

They have already lost quite a few players for next season because players didn't know if they would have a competition to play.

Well done Wasps - that's 6 out of 6 against French clubs this season.

Hopefully see you at Ravenhill Hound- don't know how the draw will work yet, but would enjoy that very much. Been a while since we've played Wasps.

Didn't see the game but cracking result for Wasps.

Good to see them back at the top table.

I'm not normally much of a fan of play-offs but this adds a bit of spice, especially with the Pro12 sides involved next season.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Notch wrote:It'll be 7th and 8th in the Pro12 in next years playoffs most likely. Neither Italian side looks even close to capable of getting out of the bottom four.

They have already lost quite a few players for next season because players didn't know if they would have a competition to play.

Well done Wasps - that's 6 out of 6 against French clubs this season.

Congratulations Hound!   Fine win for Wasps and a just reward for you and the fans.

Didn't see the Wasps win coming. Clearly good for Wasps and their supporters. But how far have French rugby turnoed over in the past few years? Perpignan gone. Biarritz gone. Stade Francais out of Europe. Big changes.

Yes great win. I think our scrum held up very well & was expecting a much harder time up front from Stad particularly with Parisse coming back in.
There were signs in the first leg that we were being squeezed there but it didn't really happen yesterday.
Massive massive result for us!

Well done Wasps!

Really stunned by how far Stade have fallen, from one of the best in the T14 and the Parisian side, to a bunch of bully boys with limited skills and what looks like more of an urge to hurt people then score tries.

Thought the high tackle decision was ludicrous, the sliding knees were a dirty move and Hask's reaction completely justified and nothing different to the 20+ other hand-bags incidents per game. Nigel had a poor showing.

yappysnap wrote:Really stunned by how far Stade have fallen, from one of the best in the T14 and the Parisian side, to a bunch of bully boys with limited skills and what looks like more of an urge to hurt people then score tries.

That about sums them up. But they have a budget that dwarfs pretty much every Pro12 and Aviva Prem. It's genuinely depressing to watch some of the mid table French sides, but especially Stade when you see them wasting the talent of Digby Ioane, Sergio Parrise, Morne Steyn etc.

Notch wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Really stunned by how far Stade have fallen, from one of the best in the T14 and the Parisian side, to a bunch of bully boys with limited skills and what looks like more of an urge to hurt people then score tries.

That about sums them up. But they have a budget that dwarfs pretty much every Pro12 and Aviva Prem. It's genuinely depressing to watch some of the mid table French sides, but especially Stade when you see them wasting the talent of Digby Ioane, Sergio Parrise, Morne Steyn etc.

Re. Parisse. He seems to spend most of his time whinging at the ref these days (both for Stade and Italy).

His best years are behind him but he still has more talent than he shows in that poorly drilled side.

Yeah, agreed. I think that's why he always seems so frustrated.

Notch wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Really stunned by how far Stade have fallen, from one of the best in the T14 and the Parisian side, to a bunch of bully boys with limited skills and what looks like more of an urge to hurt people then score tries.

That about sums them up. But they have a budget that dwarfs pretty much every Pro12 and Aviva Prem. It's genuinely depressing to watch some of the mid table French sides, but especially Stade when you see them wasting the talent of Digby Ioane, Sergio Parrise, Morne Steyn etc.

Digby Ioane hardly played and was a complete failure of a signing. Morne Steyne has been mainly 2nd choice and was disapointing. Appart from Parisse there is hardly any big names in that team (credit to them for trying to develop a few new french internationals such as flanquart, slimani, burban and plisson). If you seriously look at the names on the teamsheet it is pretty average. Nothing like the Ulster and Quins of this world.

As for the budget, well AP salary cap is around 6M€ vs 10 in the T14 but you need to consider the difference in tax regime. Stade francais was very close to be relegated for financial reasons and had to pay (partly) for their new stadium whiletheir new owner does not exactly follow yet the lorenzetti/Boudjellal/Altrad path...

Thats not entirely true who cares, Ulster after all have only one big non-homegrown star signed up for next season and Stade have two or three!

Well was looking at all the players (foreigners or not) and there is no doubt which team has the most quality. Plus am sure Stade Francais would swap a package of Steyn+Parisse for your Ruan I reckon Ioane will leave anyway.
Generally the players let themselves down and their lack of appetite and commitment was truly embarassing and I would be ashamed if I was one of their supporters). Funny enough, you dont see that in Toulon who has way more journeymen in their team so it's not always because of the mercenaries.

It's the culture. I wonder if Steyn and Ioane are just there for the money... as for Ruan, Stade might well be one of the sides who offered him more money than us initially!

Thanks for the comments folks.

If Dai Young and the other coaches can weld the new signings onto a team that can play a bit, we will be a tricky 4th seed in next year's comp.

With Palmer going, Bradley Davies is a good signing. Rob Miller straight in at at 15 and Masi at 12 alongside Daly please.

Chris Bell (as honest a player as he is) is no leader. Why DY made him captain after Shug retired baffles most Wasps fans.

We haven't been good enough to be in the top tier of European rugby for a while, but I think we can give it a good go next season.

Why do you want Masi at 12? If you don't mind me asking. I thought he was brilliant at 15 against stade or is Miller rated higher (I haven't seen him play).

Miller is an out and out 15. Masi and Daly are our best centre combo imo. C. Bell has not impressed.

Daly has had his moments at 15, but he can panic at times and has cost us tries. He's still young but needs to work harder at the basics.

Simpson at sh is my main worry though. Another player who needs to get his basics right. Terrible box kicking, and doesn't get the ball away as quickly as he used to.

Anyway, I'm getting the head down for the night.

So, who would you make captain, Hound? Personally, on current form, I'd go for Haskell.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Thanks for the comments folks.

If Dai Young and the other coaches can weld the new signings onto a team that can play a bit, we will be a tricky 4th seed in next year's comp.

I thought, other than the three League winners, there were no seeds.

LondonTiger wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Thanks for the comments folks.

If Dai Young and the other coaches can weld the new signings onto a team that can play a bit, we will be a tricky 4th seed in next year's comp.

I thought, other than the three League winners, there were no seeds.

it is not clear how it will work (at least to me!) but found the below quote in the Guardian website

The pools for the Champions Cup and the Challenge Cup will be announced in June and the seeding system adopted by ERC, which reflected clubs' records in Europe over four years, will be jettisoned, with groups based on league form. The English, French and Pro 12 champions will be kept apart, and the same will apply to the runners-up and third-placed teams

what does jettisoned mean here?

thrown out

wickedwasp wrote:So, who would you make captain, Hound?  Personally, on current form, I'd go for Haskell.

He's been great this season.

On the seeding thing, as whocares posted, I am also of the understanding that seedings/ranking for the make up of the pools will be based on league placings. Hence me stating that Wasps will be in the 4th tier of teams.

The 4th tier is set:

Treviso, Scarlets, Wasps, Toulouse, Sale.

To be honest other than Treviso Wasps are no better than the rest.

I agree, whocares. Although Scarlets have been poor in the HC in recent years.

It is strange seeing Toulouse on that list.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

wickedwasp wrote:So, who would you make captain, Hound?  Personally, on current form, I'd go for Haskell.

He's been great this season.

I'd agree with that. Very experienced guy who's been around a long time. Was he captain when he left to go to France?

No yappy. It was Tom Rees, although he hardly played owing to injury.

Ah yea, i'd forgotten all about Tom. Hask would be a good shout though

Wasps are back where they belong. Competing in a competition they graced for years.

Delighted for you Hound. See you on tour bud.

Howya gibson!

Notch wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Really stunned by how far Stade have fallen, from one of the best in the T14 and the Parisian side, to a bunch of bully boys with limited skills and what looks like more of an urge to hurt people then score tries.

That about sums them up. But they have a budget that dwarfs pretty much every Pro12 and Aviva Prem.

To clarify every T14 salary budget dwarfs every Pro12 budget and I expect nearly all, if not all, Aviva budgets

It's not just your budget it's what you do with it.

As recently as last year people were branding Toulon as a bunch of mercenaries, individuals who were all out for themselves and not equal to the sum of their parts.

You look now and they've fostered a great team spirit, work ethic and togetherness that rivals any other side. When you add that to the skill sets of the individual players you can see why they're the best side in Europe.

Other French sides (indeed sides from other nations) could learn a lot from how they go about gelling the players and team structure. It took a little while to get there but the results are two HCs on the bounce.