Winge about the unfairnes of the new European cup from a partisan Welsh viewpoint (oh, and Cardiff Blue viewpoint)

1. There are less teams in the new cup to improve quality ..... but the same 20 teams who are in it would have qualified anyway. So it hasn't improved the standard of play just excluded 4 teams and their fans from the opportunity to play, enjoy, improve and make some additional revenue. All its doing is centralising money and the best players in a smaller number of mainly English and French teams to the detriment of Northern Hemisphere rugby.

2 But the 4 teams that are beinbg excluded are rubbish and wouldn't contribute to the competition would they ..... well only one team beat Toulon in the Heineken cup this year and that was the Cardiff Blues, who were also in the same pool as Glasgow who are playing in next weeks Rabo final and the Blues beat Glasgow home and away. Edinburgh are another one of these rubbish team who wont contribute, oh but wait weren't they in semi final of the cup in the 12/13 season?

3. Well at least qualification is fair with the new system, only the teams who do best in their league will be in it .... um well Treviso came 11th in the Rabo below Cardiff, Edinburgh, Newport and Connacht

4. Ok but as we are only going to have the best teams in this competition it will allow the top internationals to compete against better competition more and will therefore prepare them better for the international stage. ......... Sounds great for England and France whose players will just about all get the chance to compete, often as units,at this level which is just below or equal to international, but what hope is there for 1 team scotland and Italy or even 2 team Wales?

Its just another step in rugby being domminated by the big and rich

Ok I'll bite.

1. If you have only the top teams in a league qualifying I theory the pools should be even. In recent seasons any pool with Italian sides, Connacht, and often Dragons have meant that the best runner up is guaranteed to be from that pool, also it increases the competativeness of the second euro comp.

2. The argument given by the French and English is that as there is no relegation from the Rabo and until now qualification was not based on league standing teams could rest players in the league and save for the Heineken so teams could punch above their weight on Europe.

3. I think that was the call from the Celtic and Italian unions plus IRB that it had to involve sides from all six existing unions, so if you have a better idea to square that circle...

Ok, I'll bite.

1.  Top teams in a league qualifying for Europe is still a league in itself, in that there will be better teams, less better teams and, in terms of ability to win the title, rock bottom teams.  Easy draws don't disappear.  It's just that the moans about and names of those teams will change.
But it's not about easy anyway, as easy was the way many English and French sides ventured into the play-off stage of many HECs in the first place, given that they had some of the poverty stricken, quality redundant Pro12 sides in their pools.  So, the complainers about Pro12 quality content were often some of the biggest benefactors of that very lack of quality.


2.  Punching above your weight in Europe is playing hard enough and smart enough to win in Europe.  That's all it is, that's all it was.  The winners won because they earned it, not because they played tricks.  Unless you want to include unequal wage packets as another reason why certain teams can punch above their weight?  If that one is added to the list of tricks, then we'll talk about the other one of saving players for a rainy day.
The perceived trick - keeping your best players fresh in the toy League Pro12 whilst still hoping that those players have enough readiness levels in fitness and battle-hardness to do a job against battle-hardened sides (em English and French sides supposedly)
Some trick! Don't try it at home folks.  It don't work.  
Players only earn a reputation as HEC players by playing hard enough and well enough in Pro12 and the other leagues to actually get a spot in HEC teams in the first place.  They don't just appear with all the skill tools ready to fight and win in Europe unless they are cooked slowly first in Pro12.  The myth about rotation too has been disproved over and over as many English sides do the biz on trying to keep best players fresh too.  It's called good management of resources. And that management of resources will be now required even moreso rather than less so in the new Europe.


3.  It was the right call from the Pro12 unions (plus IRB) to involve sides from all six existing unions because it's a dumb turkey that votes for Christmas.  But it wasn't the Pro12 unions who demanded the reduction of their numbers whilst keeping the present representation from the other two at six apiece.  Who did demand that condition? Surprise surprise, the two unions that get to keep six apiece.

But they done no wrong 'cause everything is now 'fair'.

I knew I should have kept my mouth shut.

To be fair the best way to have gotten rid of the 'easier' groups getting the second place teams to qualify would have been to either increase the number of teams participating up to 32, and have 8 pools of 4 with only the winners going through, or to have 16 teams (4 pools of 4) with first and second place going through (and each pool winner facing a runner up). But even then there would be whinging.

it was the welsh clubs actions that weakened the pro 12 negotiating position and that left us in this situation+

TJ wrote:it was the welsh clubs actions that weakened the pro 12 negotiating position and that left us in this situation+

Spot on RRW broke ranks and sided with PRL fundamentally weakening the Pro12 position.
As a consequence the PRL by and large got what they wanted.

Bit rich complaining about the outcome.

With respect to Cardiff all of the team qualifying for the tournament, bar Treviso, were better teams this year.
Cardiff want to be at the top table - simple put in Pro12 performances next year to justify it.

Agree with this, the Welsh regions flirting with the PRL (as though it was ever going to happen) was what took the rug from under the other Pro12 teams.
I would concede the the Regions were possibly using this mainly as a stick to beat Lewis and the WRU so maybe didn't think about the other consequences that have led to this position.

From a neutral perspective the new competition will be less desirable to a welsh audience, having 50% representation and no representation from the majority of their public. This will lead to a slow decline in funds and performance for welsh clubs.

The Scottish and Italians are all but cut out of being competitive at any level.

The Irish are the strongest of the Rabo nations, but for as long as welsh media and public fund the Rabo it's only a matter of time before renegotiations take place with regards to funds, and the irfu have one he'll of a job to keep the clubs afloat.

I see the English and French leagues going for strength to strength, the shift if power moving from unions to clubs, who generate all the funds, and the decline in quality in northern hemisphere rugby on an international setting.

It's a pretty cynical view granted, but I see no other way.

So in other words.... Rugby Union in Europe will begin to mimic the Football equivalent?

English and French leagues will grow and grow, they'll suck best players/coaches in from other areas of Europe (including Pro12 areas) but also increasingly steal away best SH players/coaches too.........................  the SH won't escape the implications of the increasing financial clout of Europe.

But then of course, just as France now suffers Internationally from having so many external players playing pivotal roles in their Top14 clubs, England too will ineviatbly suffer from a host of external top-dollar players being attracted to their League.

Hmmm.............. if that's the conclusion - and you can see it continuing in football as we speak - then RFU might regret the deal in the dark they've been doing with PRL.  They've done their deal with the Devil.  Let's see over the next decade how much that deal benefits the International game in England.

Fly - You can't compare Oranges with Apples - The English football system encourages the best foreigners who then go on to play for their own Country - The rugby system ensures that England's imports become English and hence can play for England. In time we'll see a very strong English team with one or two born in England   

RubyGuby wrote:Fly - You can't compare Oranges with Apples - The English football system encourages the best foreigners who then go on to play for their own Country - The rugby system ensures that England's imports become English and hence can play for England. In time we'll see a very strong English team with one or two born in England   

You got a undeniable point there, Ruby. The lonely islander college kid wanting to play for England for the cultcha and lifestyle angle?....... hmmm, will have to go away and recalibrate my missive.

Neutralee wrote:From a neutral perspective the new competition will be less desirable to a welsh audience, having 50% representation and no representation from the majority of their public. This will lead to a slow decline in funds and performance for welsh clubs.

The Scottish and Italians are all but cut out of being competitive at any level.

The Irish are the strongest of the Rabo nations, but for as long as welsh media and public fund the Rabo it's only a matter of time before renegotiations take place with regards to funds, and the irfu have one he'll of a job to keep the clubs afloat.

I see the English and French leagues going for strength to strength, the shift if power moving from unions to clubs, who generate all the funds, and the decline in quality in northern hemisphere rugby on an international setting.

It's a pretty cynical view granted, but I see no other way.

Not sure on the 'welsh media and public fund the Rabo' piece. Does this 'public' attend matches, pay at the gate, sit in the stands? The Irish are doing well because they put a product on the pitch and bums on seats. The Irish TV ratings are also strong. And when the evil commercial corporation that is Sky look to pick the marquee fixtures next season they will be concentrating on the Irish provinces as well.

Neutralee wrote:

The Irish are the strongest of the Rabo nations, but for as long as welsh media and public fund the Rabo it's only a matter of time before renegotiations take place with regards to funds, and the irfu have one he'll of a job to keep the clubs afloat.

I think you have been taking too much notice of some Welsh keyboard propaganda.

1) The Welsh clubs/some of their fans have all but destroyed the Pro12 with their continually bad mouthing it.
2) The sponsors up to now have been attracted by the Irish audience. Magners (first title sponsor) is an Irish company and Rabo only did business in Ireland.
3) The Celtic League was originally based in Edinburgh. It was moved to Dublin to avail of the very generous sporting TAX EXEMPTION from the Irish Government which is worth a lot more than any pittance the BBC licence holder came up with (Wales only contribution to the pot).
4) The Pro12 take the gate of the Final to finance it. Every final has been in Ireland so effectively its the Irish fans who fund the Pro12.

Now, please stop this nonsense about the Welsh Regions keeping the Pro12 on the road. They don't.

How is dumping some poor sides from the competition not improving the competition's level?

SBasco wrote:How is dumping some poor sides from the competition not improving the competition's level?

All depends on your definition of a 'Poor' side - and whether we'd all agree that that definition was a definitive one.
From where I'm standing, there are still poor sides that will still be in the competition. How many times do you thin out the 'Poor' sides before you have simply a competition between the four or five Richest European clubs? You see that's where I feel things might be going, where the competition itself starts defining the word Poor in strictly financial terms. If you're 'Poor', you're out.

Fly, the reality is pretty much that the financially poor are the performance poor too (with the odd one Cinderella season maybe). After all the players seem to gravitated to the rich clubs, and as such that seems to transform the rich clubs to being successful clubs.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly, the reality is pretty much that the financially poor are the performance poor too (with the odd one Cinderella season maybe).  After all the players seem to gravitated to the rich clubs, and as such that seems to transform the rich clubs to being successful clubs.

Precisely.  What did I say that was wrong then?  

Poor in financial terms will mean Poor in performance levels.  Why?  Because the performers from the poor arreas will be attracted to the Rich areas.  The rich will be rich because of population density and location.  So the Poor areas will lose their performing players to a deregulated non-salary cap future and the Rich will benefit from sneering at the little one's whose players they are using to keep the Poor Poor (in both terms - financial as well as performance)  
Richness becomes a self perpetuating tool by which the Rich stay up as Best and the Poor never have any real hope of getting there.

Some here seem to like that dynamic in sport - afterall, the Football Premiership is a prime example of run-away money buying league position.  To some that's fine - market led fame and fortune.  To others it's anti the idea of sport in the first place.

Tends to be the 'rich' teams that like that dynamic in sport

Fly what I meant is that the rich and poor situation has been going on for a long long time already. The Irish provinces are proof of that, so why are you complaining about it now.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly what I meant is that the rich and poor situation has been going on for a long long time already.  The Irish provinces are proof of that, so why are you complaining about it now.

Just read that again, and it doesn't come across as it was meant.

So, lets try again.


The Irish provinces have been leading the way in the 'rich' dominating the game, however that was when the 'rich' were not really that 'rich' and also attempted to develop future stars from within too, however had enough cash to buy in world class ringers to win them titles. Now there are some seriously 'rich' individuals buying into at the game, and they are doing the same thing, but they have far more cash to throw into it, and also are not concerned about the 'future' of the international game. They are just doing the same thing as the provinces started doing, and buying in the best they can. So really, as a number of Irish posters seem to be holier than thou on this issue (blaming the English, French, Welsh for it all), I find it funny that (IMO) they started the rich domination of the game, and are now whinging about it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly what I meant is that the rich and poor situation has been going on for a long long time already.  The Irish provinces are proof of that, so why are you complaining about it now.

Here we go.  Leinster super rich in comparison to Ospreys?  Is that the implication?  Let's not forget it wasn't all that long ago that the Ospreys were known as the Galacticos.... oozing with talent who were getting paid every penny and more that any player in any Province was at the time.

Back in the real world.  Nobody in Wales or Scotland or Ireland can compete with the money ready to be poured into the clubs in TOP14 (at it already) and AP (will be getting ready to join Top14 very soon).  If that doesn't compute with you or even if you don't mind that map of Europe's future, then so be it.  We all see what we see.  
But this new dawn - that some regions fans seem to think will give them more chances of doing well in Europe not less ones - is a recipe for carving up Europe's best players and coaches amongst the top AP and TOP14 sides.  If that's the rosey future PRL wanted then so be it.  And if it's the one you're okay with, then fine too.  Enjoy the buzz.

My response was to your earlier post Scarlet. Just to be clear on that.

SecretFly wrote:My response was to your earlier post Scarlet.  Just to be clear on that.

Yeah that first post was not very clear, sorry.

The game is shifting power, yes.

The rich will be able to cherry pick the best players, yes)

The poor will be forced to live within their means, and try to find a way to create more cash some how, yes.

However, these have all been going on for the last 5-10 years, and the only difference now is that it is different people being put into the poor bracket. But also, using the Ospreys as an example, these 'money men' are not total fools, and if they are not seeing the silverware that they are expecting then they will pull their cash, leaving that side to fall into the poor bracket and another side to climb into the rich list.

Being a Scarlets fan I have seen us being hit by the money men taking our players (and coaches) away from us, and I have witnessed us raiding those who are not as well off as us too. I can't think of many times that this has happened to the Irish since professionalism (bar Connacht), so I understand why so many are upset by the way things are going. But a little ray of sunshine, thinks can always get better when there is room for improvement, there is always something on the horizon that you may be able to reach, but if you are at the top there is only a fall waiting for you. And personally I would much rather live with the hope of someday picking of that big win, rather than sitting there waiting for the inevitable failure.

I don't think we'll see any more big name players come from any other countries to England than we have seen in the entire pro era frankly. Those numbers have come down in the last decade, and I don't see players being poached by England any more than they always have or any more than any of your other nations. Get some Frak perspective, the lot of you, I value most of your opinions but you are acting like this is te death of rugby, when in fact relatively little has changed except Scotland have been shafted, which given their current state could be awful for them. I also expect to see the French national team continue its decline mostly due to the foreign player ethos of their league. But we'll see

CJ, your right professionalism claimed the likes of Richmond and Orrell (is that right). Those that are around now have already learnt how to survive, now it's just a case of people moving between sitting with the big boys in Europe or being at the kids table.

Also financially, in Wales and I believe elsewhere, there is no difference in funding between top flight and challenge cup.

SBasco wrote:How is dumping some poor sides from the competition not improving the competition's level?

It would be if it was being applied properly. Take Pool 1 just as a prime example:- Saracens, Munster, Clermont, Sale

I'm not being funny here but Sale are totally out of their depth in this pool. I'm prediciting they will have given up by round 2.

Bottom line if 20 teams where being based on quality England would only have 4 entrants instead of 6 as France would probably be entering 8. In truth England are lucky to keep 6 spots.

Also dont compare the English league with the TOP14. The PRL has exactly the same problem the Pro 12 has in retaining players in its league to keep it viable as a compteitive league. I certanly dont believe the league is any stronger than the Pro 12. Sure the top 4 in england are damn good sides but beneath that I just dont really see any side that is any better than what we have in the Pro 12 (especially in terms of squad strengths).

Actually I think Sale will do far better than you expect in that group


I agree that our mid level sides aren't much better than the RABO's, but we don't have trouble holding onto our players- which big players have left to go to te RABO or France? Mostly those at the ends of their careers and the Armitages a few years ago. The middle tier of French teams frankly doesn't impress me much eithwr

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually I think Sale will do far better than you expect in that group


I agree that our mid level sides aren't much better than the RABO's, but we don't have trouble holding onto our players- which big players have left to go to te RABO or France? Mostly those at the ends of their careers and the Armitages a few years ago. The middle tier of French teams frankly doesn't impress me much eithwr

Look with the best will in the world Sale are a long shot in that group. I'm also basing my decision on how they have applied themselves in previous campaigns. I'm just saying dont be suprised to see the Sale reserves being fielded if by round 2 their interests have been ended. They are not the only side to do this. Castres for example do the same. I'm not knocking it as I understand the indivudal reasons behind it but it does devalue the cup in some respects.

Ask Leicester if Flood will be missed? He's hardly over the hill and if the play at home rule wasnt active (which it has to be) dozens of other Englishman would be playing their rugby over the channel. Its why the RFU had to implement it in the first place (to bring some key personel home at the time). Also the impact to league quality is partly impacted by the level of imports they bring in. Granted English rugby is holding on to its own english players at the moment but it is moving further and further behind the TOP14 in terms of foreign aquisitions. That in turn will see commercial ramifications in terms of the finance both leagues can demand thus moving them further and further behind the TOP14.

While I agree with the initial statement regaridng mid level french teams they still have stronger rosters in terms of experience and squad sizes. You only have to look at the Aviva to realize most teams squad have reduced significantly in the last 10 years to combat the rise in salaries while in France the squad sizes have just increased.