Ward's inactivity affecting his ATG status?

Without question Andre Ward is the dominant force at SMW and has some good names on his resume like Froch, Kessler, Dawson, Abraham. However he has only had 2 fights in 2 and a half years and none in the pipeline. These are the prime years of his career where he should be thinking about cementing his legacy. His well documented contractual issues have limited his fighting but are there other factors holding him back such as injuries, lack of motivation, perceived lack of opposition? If he fought more regularly and kept winning could he be thought of in the same bracket as RJJ in years to come?

Ward has had problems with his promoter. Hopefully that will get resolved very soon and then we will see.

Will he still fight at home for every fight?

He states that none of the big names are willing to fight him and he is right. GGG's people have stated that their man was not ready last year. Froch has realised he will never beat Ward after the pasting he got of SOG last time out in the super 6. Ward has options but needs to do something because some people look at Froch as THEE man at 168

Such a bizzare fighter and so over rated I feel.

Like ONE TWO stated....Froch got a pasting....when actually he lost I think by 3 or so rounds on all the cards so couldn't have been that bad a pasting. No knockdowns. Groves gave froch a pasting in the first fight, a lot more than Ward certainly did.

And OP, you mention his great wins over Abraham and Kessler....Froch has the same only his were not resulted by constant headbutts and he probably did a better job on Abraham as well.

Dawson had come down in weight to fight Ward and hasn't been the same fighter since so I'm taking that with a pinch of salt.

So in reality then, why do people view him as amazing?!

Never fights outside his own back yard, fights once a decade, has a boring style, beats the crud out of some Rodriguez fellow and jumps back into number 2 p4p.

I'm not buying it and for me he is no longer in my top p4p list.

Not until he fights on a regular basis again and actually travels to fight people.

Like Hate mentioned... Why wasn't he ringside at Wembley?! Soaking it up, looking at his potential opponents and looking at easy money (because he clearly hammered froch if course!!)....

I didn't think he has the right attitude. He would rather sit and make excuses and not fight.

Wouldn't lose any sleep if he retired.

The cards were a joke in the Froch fight to be fair MM, Ward won at a canter in every department.

cheers Rodders

But I wouldn't class it as a demolition job. I'd say the later rounds won back some points to male it appear closer.

I just don't understand the hype around ward right now having thought about it for a long time.

Ward fought Froch will a damaged shoulder and a broken hand. He totally humilated Froch

If they ever fought a rematch, Ward would win by stoppage.

So he says Gerry...so he says.

Mike Tyson once fought with a broken back.

Floyd fights with fragile hands.

Pacquiao had problems with his calf muscles....

If they don't perform to their best ability due to the opponent not letting you then of course excuses will flow.

Whilst I agree with Rodders the cards were poor in the Froch fight, it was not the shut out it is often portrayed. However I should add this is only because Ward seemed to do a De La Hoya and just take the last few rounds off, allowing Froch to nick a couple late on. His dominance over Froch was never in doubt though.

MM8, I suspect you are not alone in thinking he is overrated. I also recently rewatched the Ward-Froch fight when Sky showed it as part of the build up and I agree Ward by 3 or 4 rounds but Froch didn't take a pasting. What was impressive though was that his skills didn't let Froch impose his usual style.

Regarding not being ringside that is one of the factors as to why I suggested he lacks motivation. Surely he should have been there imagining what it would be like to take on the winner in a huge unification showdown?!

mobilemaster8 wrote:But I wouldn't class it as a demolition job. I'd say the later rounds won back some points to male it appear closer.

I just don't understand the hype around ward right now having thought about it for a long time.

He cleaned a division out, which rarely happens these days & no one came close to hurting or beating him. I agree Ward's inactivity is beginning to slighty diminish all he's good work, he needs to step up to the plate rather soon (however I dont see Froch/Hearn badgering him for a rematch)

cheers Rodders

mobilemaster8 wrote:So he says Gerry...so he says.

Mike Tyson once fought with a broken back.

Floyd fights with fragile hands.

Pacquiao had problems with his calf muscles....

If they don't perform to their best ability due to the opponent not letting you then of course excuses will flow.

So in the build up to the Edwin Rodriguez fight, HBO showed footage of Ward's shoulder op.

So in your book Ward had shoulder surgery for fun?

What difference would Ward have made if he had travelled to Wembley?

He's trying to end his contract with Dan Goosen, so he can't fight the winner(Froch) even if he wanted to.

Yeah and in the build up to most fights on 24/7 they show something happening which could act as an excuse for post fight interviews.

I'm not buying it anymore the guys annoys me.

He was saying yesterday "beating kovalev Or Stevenson means nothing for me"

Errrr... Why not?

Nobody is left in your division so you say, so step up and fight someone else and stop making them come down or come up

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:. Ward has options but needs to do something because some people look at Froch as THEE man at 168

Who, aside from Carl and Lee Froch and Eddie Hearn?

mobilemaster8 wrote:Yeah and in the build up to most fights on 24/7 they show something happening which could act as an excuse for post fight interviews.

I'm not buying it anymore the guys annoys me.

He was saying yesterday "beating kovalev Or Stevenson means nothing for me"

Errrr... Why not?

Nobody is left in your division so you say, so step up and fight someone else and stop making them come down or come up

Ward didn't make Dawson come down to 168lbs.

Dawson called out Ward and Dawson said he would come down to 168lbs.

If the fight had been at 175lbs, Ward would've still won

Ward's been doing my head in for a while now, big admirer of his talent though I am. As a boxer, he's certainly special.

Appreciate he's got contractual disputes hanging over him, and obviously that shoulder injury eighteen months back hindered his progress for a while, too. But he's got a clean bill of health now and he himself reckons that his legal battles aren't preventing him from fighting at all - in fact, he reckons that the other big names between 160 and 175 are just using his court case as a reason to not even entertain the idea of fighting him.

Hey, who knows. Maybe what he's saying is true. But I'd be a bit more inclined to believe him if he was actually making noises about what he's going to do next, or who he wants to fight. If Golovkin, Froch, Stevenson, Kovalev etc really are the ones running scared, then at least try to make that clear and put a bit of pressure on one of them by publicly saying, "I want (insert any of the above here)" and get the fans and networks talking about it. If he's happy to sit back and just hope that a big name will suddenly become interested in him, then I suspect they'll be equally as happy to sit back and pretend he's not there.

Anyway, if he can't land that big, big fight he wants right now, in the meantime why not just take care of a mandatory, a divisional gatekeeper, one of the lesser Super-Middle operators like Steiglitz etc? I'd rather see Ward fighting mere contenders ahead of just not fighting at all. Seven months since his last fight and we haven't even heard a muble yet about him having anything lined up on the horizon.The way it's going, it'll probably be a whole twelve months since the Rodriguez fight by the time he gets back in the ring - and it was fourteen months since his last outing before that one!

Swallow some pride Andre and actually go looking for that big fight instead of waiting for it to come to you. Pinpoint one of the big names, make a clear, categorical statement that you want them next and build the demand for the fight. If they don't want it, then so be it, but at least you tried and did something to dispell the growing idea that you're lacking ambition and always expect everything to be on your terms.

Hard to disagree with that Chris, can't quite get the mentality that "I can't get the fight I want, so I won't take any fight at all". Seems clear that the fights that get the pulse racing for fans for Andre are at 175 now, so if you can't get Stephenson or Kovalev in the ring move up and smack around a couple of the gatekeepers of that division.

Since Stephenson and Kovalev seem as far away as ever from getting it on am sure one of them could be convinced to accommodate him, hell moving up and putting Hopkins out of our misery is better than nothing!

Sports Illustrated article:
 
All things considered, it's fair to ask: What exactly is Ward's beef? Why would a fighter in the prime of his career risk stalling it?
 
The crux of Ward's issue with Goossen is this: For the last few years, Ward has been co-promoted by Goossen and Antonio Leonard. Goossen, the face of Goossen-Tutor promotions, has been the front man. Leonard has worked behind the scenes. Leonard has been instrumental in building support for Ward in Oakland. For many Ward fights, Leonard moves to the area a six weeks early, pushing Ward at local events, building his brand at the grassroots level.
 
In 2011, Ward re-signed with Goossen and Leonard. The two promoters split the signing bonus--$550,000--and agreed to continue sharing the promotional profits. However--and this is where things get a little murky--only Goossen's name was on the promotional agreement. According to Leonard, Goossen agreed to add Leonard to the promotional agreement once he was licensed in California. A December, 2010 email exchange between Goossen and Leonard--a copy of which was obtained by SI.com--show Goossen indicating it would be "no problem" adding Leonard to the paperwork once he was licensed.
 
Last summer, Ward, believing Leonard and his manager, James Prince, were being excluded from discussions about future fights, went to arbitration to break his contract with Goossen. Ward lost. Then, this: Last fall, Leonard received a California license. He asked Goossen to be added to the agreement. Goossen declined. Last November, Leonard claims that Goossen refused to pay him his share of the promotional revenue from Ward's super middleweight title defense against Edwin Rodriguez, revenue that Leonard estimates to be worth nearly $300,000. Then, Leonard alleges, Goossen informed him he would no longer be sharing any of the profit from Ward's fights.
 
When asked why he didn't insist on being included in the co-promotional agreement in the first place, Leonard cited a longstanding relationship with Goossen.
 
"I didn't have a problem with Dan," Leonard told SI.com. "I always felt he was a very trustworthy person. I never thought he wasn't. He said as long as I got my promoters license, I would get what I was supposed to get."
 
Goossen was not immediately available for comment.
 
None of this has sat well with Ward. To Ward, Goossen's actions were tantamount to a betrayal. Last December, Ward filed a lawsuit to void his contract. That case is still pending. Last month, Ward lost his second try at arbitration. While Goossen has publicly expressed a desire to move on, Ward has steadfastly maintained that Leonard needs to be involved in the process.
 
"I took Goossen's money," Ward said. "I took Leonard's money. I can't in good conscience walk away from [Leonard]. I can't take his money and know that he is not being compensated or ignored. That's the root of the issue. That's a friend of mine, that's a business partner of mine. For whatever reason, Dan decided to walk away and exclude him. I refuse to do it."
 
Battling a promoter in court carries risk. This isn't Judge Judy. A lawsuit could take months, years to be resolved. However Ward maintains that he is willing to fight for Goossen while the lawsuit plays out. But he says he has not had one legitimate offer from Goossen since December. Names like Sakio Bika, James DeGale and Anthony Dirrell have been floated but, says Ward, those fights represent a step back. And while there has been a public push for Ward to move up to light heavyweight--specifically for a fight with Sergey Kovalev--Ward says there are still plenty of opponents for him in the super middleweight division.
 
"I'm not a light heavyweight," Ward said. "That's just what it is. I know there has been a lot of noise about Kovalev, but that's one fight. That's not even a pay per view fight. When I go there, and we beat Kovalev, they are going to say he is just a puncher, that he is one dimensional. Then where do I go? There are options at 168. [Gennady] Golovkin is an option. [Julio Cesar] Chavez is an option. But those guys have been allowed to circumvent fighting the best guy. Golovkin has built his reputation saying he will fight anybody. I'm raising my hand. I'm somebody. Let's do it."
 
As he watches another year of his prime slip away, Ward resolve has strengthened. He says he has been encouraged by the support from Mayweather and Bernard Hopkins, both of who have battled promoters in the past. He says he is in shape and ready to fight, whenever Goossen calls. He will not back down though, not now, not ever.
 
"Every time a fighter stands up, it's not a bad thing," Ward said. "I want to be in the ring more than anyone else wants me to be in the ring. This is literally how I feed my family. I'm building up so much hunger [during] these trials and tribulations. I'm not getting fat, I'm not getting upset. My time is going to come. When I get past this, the flood gates are going to open."
 
 
 
Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma/news/20140507/andre-ward-dan-goossen-antonio-leonard-promoter-dispute/#ixzz34KHwdJjk

Couple of points to be made here: first, Froch did not lose by three rounds to Ward on all cards - the two American judges somehow scored the fight to Ward by just two points. British judge John Keane viewed the contest 118-110.

To me, Keane was almost bang on. I had it 119-110, giving Froch a share of the 5th, plus a win in the 12th, during which, as Jeff says, Ward was essentially performing a lap of honour. Most people found the scoring of the two Americans to be incomprehensible; I share that view. This was, from my angle, a far more convincing victory than, say, Barrera's over Hamed.

Froch, as I never tire of saying, is one of Britain's true greats and a credit to the sport in many ways. He has never ducked a challenge. It is surely instructive that he both accepts that he lost and that he has made so little noise about a rematch, particularly when you compare this with his efforts to secure a second bout against Kessler.

Ward, therefore, is a pretty special fighter. All that said, I do agree with the basic premise of the thread. Doing next to nothing for so long does not help to burnish a fighter's legacy. Floyd Mayweather has basically taken the odd year off at various stages of his career, but he already had some pretty substantial achievements in the book when he began his sabbaticals. Ward doesn't have that luxury; he has dominated his division, it's true, but he has the potential to do a great deal more.

With Golovkin unlikely to chase Ward (and with GGG's middleweight aims far from achieved, I can hardly blame him for that), I would suggest that Ward has little that he can prove at 168 now. In an ideal world, he would be able to sort his management issues out and show us the full range of his ability at 175, where I have little doubt that he has the talent to establish himself as the head man of the division, Kovalev and Stevenson notwithstanding. If, however, he remains in relative limbo, there's no question that future generations will always be tempted to underrate this exceptional fighter.

Winning by 4 rounds sounds quite close but its means Ward won 8 rounds to Frochs 4 (twice as many)....Sorry for insulting everyones intelligence.

I think a lot of people forget that the Froch fight was just after the Khan debacle against Peterson, in Washington. That is why the cards were a lot closer than they should have been, I think.

The strangest thing about those two 115-113 cards, for me at least, was that they seemed to be rewarding Carl more for the first half of the fight, where to most people's eyes he was getting severely outclassed, than they did in the second half, where he toiled and hustled enough to close the gap a little, albeit without ever looking likely to turn things around.

Can't remember the two judges in question without looking it up, but I believe one of them was John Stewart - who had Froch 49-46 up after five rounds! Even those who try to pass the fight off as close usually do so based on Froch just outworking Ward to nick a few rounds down the stretch. If a judge such as Stewart was somehow that impressed with Froch in the early goings, it's almost surprising (though it would have been a disgrace, of course) that he didn't end up with Froch winning the fight outright.

No bigger Froch fan than me,but I thought he was outclassed by Ward, and even on the inside Ward looked too strong,but hope we're not saying about Ward in a few years time what heights could he have reached.

I feel its hard to call any fighter over rated who wins his fights as convincingly as Ward has,this is a fighter who hasn't lost since he was 12years old,so I think he's a bit special,even if not the most exciting.

trottb wrote:I think a lot of people forget that the Froch fight was just after the Khan debacle against Peterson, in Washington. That is why the cards were a lot closer than they should have been, I think.

Not really sure how that fits in, Trott?

trott was implying the judges were trying to right a previous wrong, with respect to judging.

mobilemaster8 wrote:And OP, you mention his great wins over Abraham and Kessler....Froch has the same only his were not resulted by constant headbutts and he probably did a better job on Abraham as well.

Watch the Kessler fight again and then try to tell anyone with a straight face that the head clashes had any bearing on the result. Ward was totally dominating Kessler and dismantling him long before any butt. Unfortunate for Kessler that he got cut so badly but truth be told he was never in the fight at all.

Sure enough, Froch has a win over Kessler, too; but not at the first time of asking, and even second time out not anywhere near as clear and dominant as Ward's was over a younger, fresher version - the version who handed Froch his maiden defeat five months later.

Yeah i got that, though i find it difficult to believe it would really affect the judges' decision, anyway, when you look at the stats of the fight, Froch was the busier of the two, even if he failed to connect with any telling shots, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility for the judges to have mistaken that for actually 'boxing' the fight.

88Chris05 wrote:

mobilemaster8 wrote:And OP, you mention his great wins over Abraham and Kessler....Froch has the same only his were not resulted by constant headbutts and he probably did a better job on Abraham as well.

Watch the Kessler fight again and then try to tell anyone with a straight face that the head clashes had any bearing on the result. Ward was totally dominating Kessler and dismantling him long before any butt. Unfortunate for Kessler that he got cut so badly but truth be told he was never in the fight at all.

Sure enough, Froch has a win over Kessler, too; but not at the first time of asking, and even second time out not anywhere near as clear and dominant as Ward's was over a younger, fresher version - the version who handed Froch his maiden defeat five months later.

I have to admit, i still think Froch edged their first bout and agree with him when he says that had they fought in Nottingham he would have won.

Well that's a possibility, mate, but I reckon that had that fight taken place in Nottingham, unfolding over twelve rounds exactly as it did but with Froch getting the result, the majority would have believed that it was down to some good luck on Froch's part and maybe a shade of home town cooking, too. From memory, while everyone knows it was a close one, most (maybe 65 per cent, at a guess?) felt at the time that Kessler had done enough to nick it regardles of location, with the other 35 per cent being roughly split between a draw or a Froch win. Tillerman's 117-111 card was horrible, granted.

For me, Froch's win over Dirrell was more questionable and closer than Kessler's over Froch, and also more likely to have gone the other way depending on a change of location, too.

I don't see why, if you teleported the first Kessler-Froch fight to Nottingham, he'd have been any more likely to pick up the decision, unless we all accept that hometown crowds are able to sway judges that easily. I had Kessler by three, could just about narrow it to one with a British eye, but could see no way in which Carl could be given the nod. Ironically, considering Froch threw so many punches in total during the fight, it was his comparative inactivity in the middle rounds (specifically the sixth and the two or three rounds that followed) that did for him in Denmark. Froch had enjoyed an excellent round 5, clearly hurting Kessler; why he didn't choose to press home his advantage, only he will know. Perhaps a home crowd may have spurred Carl on to greater effort, but the Dane had never faltered in places as far from home as Australia and Cardiff, so it may just be that the Kessler of 2010 was as much as Froch could handle at that point.

I agree with you on the Dirrell fight, especially using the same logic as why Froch scored so well against Ward because he was the busier of the two throughout the fight, though rarely caught anything telling other than the back of Dirrell's head.

That being said, i thought Dirrell was shot going into the 9th, hence the constant holding, so i think there is a case for both there.

The problem is that Ward seems less interested in his "ATG staus/legacy" than the rest of us. I'm convinced Ward could retire tomorrow and have no qualms about what he achieved and wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over people discussing what he could and couldn't have gone on to do. His self belief is damn near absolute and his stance over the issue with Goosen reflects this. There are any number of fighters who would have said to Leonard, "So long and thanks for all the memories!" before moving on with their careers and Ward's sense of decency/fairness appears to have been offended by this (although becoming a pro boxer he'd surely have known he was throwing his hat in with a nest of vipers and scheming backstabbing b*stards).

I fear Ward will not be moved one iota on this but also won't see the stalling of his career as "cutting his nose off to spite his face". No doubt he'd see it as all being part of God's grand design.

All extremely frustrating as he's one that's grown on me over the years. I thought his pro-career was the very definition of slow burning (although not perhaps quite in the Kell Brook mould) and he's one that deserves to be appreciated by a wider audience.

So, andre ward. Man of principle, or arrogant jerk? Or principled arrogant jerk?

Take your pick, but he can't say he'd still fight under goosen, claim he hadn't had any serious offers, then list a bunch of reasonable opponents that he actually turned down as 'backward steps'. Sure they're not a-listers but who isn't a backward step for ward at super-middle?

Can he not be forced by the WBA to face a mandatory, or was Rodriguez a mandatory?

hazharrison wrote: "I know there has been a lot of noise about Kovalev, but that's one fight. That's not even a pay per view fight. When I go there, and we beat Kovalev, they are going to say he is just a puncher, that he is one dimensional. Then where do I go? There are options at 168"

This is a terrible attitude. No point in fighting a dangerous guy like Kovalev because some folk might not give me credit afterwards. What?! Better to fight nobody then. Ward doesn't have many options at 168. Froch is the clear no.2 guy, and I don't think many are clamouring for that fight again. He's in a tough spot, but he really should go looking for challenges.

He hasn't had a fight offer since December and he isn't a light heavyweight. Should he bulk up and leave SM behind to beat Kovalev, then what? Where's his PPV fight?

At SM, he's banking on Chavez and GGG down the line (and when that interview took place, possibly Groves).

... Its one of his options haz... He has stevenson and Bhop up there too. Its fine if he doesn't want to go to light heavy which both he and hunter have repeated often enough, but however well intentioned his principles are, he really needs to get off his 'arris and fight someone.

Must be someone out their who fancies a crack at his title? .. Though they will undoubtedly seem like a backward step.

I feel sorry for Ward on some levels and totally unenthused on others. He is by FAR the most talented SMW out there and runs rings round anyone in the division. However, the dispute with Goosen has probably hurt him far more than any Froch punch did. He's been stripped of the WBC belt he took from Froch (inactivity and not fighting their contender) and only has a portion of the WBA belt (is he still a "Super" champ or is that now Froch as Carl's also got the IBF bauble? I am confused...).

He IS the best, of that I have no doubt. The trouble is, outside of California, nobody really gives a poop. He's only fought outside California 5 times (one against Froch ironically) in his 27, and only once out of the USA (and that was in St Lucia). For all his slickness, great movement and defence, he is dull to watch and also dull to listen to. To the casual fan he is about as interesting as an interview with William Hague talking about foreign policy. Compare him to Froch, a boxing marketer's dream, and you can see why the Brits conveniently forget about how he showed Carl how to win a fight without being punched in the face.

His apparent dismissal of fights for being a retrograde step is a bit too diva-esque for me. It's like the old Naomi Campbell saying - "I won't get out of bed for less than $$$$". Makes a mockery of the whole fight game. He knows he's good, but won't defend his titles against anyone? What a plonker. Keep busy man, and you might win some more fans. I think DeGale could be an interesting fight for him as James is not the perfect fighter by any means but he does have good movement. He would be unlikely to beat Ward but why not fight him? Oh, that's right Andre - a former Olympic champ who's worked his way back up the rankings is not good enough. And Chavez is? A man who's usually several pounds heavier than his opponent at fight time and leads with his steel chin? Come on! The reason there's no credible established champs is because you've already beaten them. That's what good champions do - they fight the up-and-comers until there's none left or they get beaten. Then move up/down in weight and/or retire.

Ward should stop posturing about why he's not fighting, clear up this promotional issue and get fighting or vacate his title and do something other than talk about how great he is. We know, Andre. We just don't care right now.

I cant say I miss him. His style does nothing for me. Hes a bit of a whinger too. He says he is not getting offers. I believe him. He does absolutely nothing to encourage them and does absolutely nothing to try and force them. He signed up for the Super Middleweight tournament but so did 5 other guys Andre, and they all had to travel. He also made the Dawson fight at Super Middleweight in his own backyard. I get the distinct impression he is far from accommodating.